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You ask what happened to bitz, and what happened to this and that? The reality is vets didn't buy enough of that stuff and it didn't make enough money to be worth it.

That would explain removing it, and I understand that: Keeping the system together was expensive. However, what happened to the quality of service then? What happened to the promise to return it better than ever? Furthermore, Veterans not using Bitz Order? Up until the day that Bitz Order was canned, my GW was getting constant influx of people who wouldn't even buy store boxes / blisters, but were instead using the computer & store catalogues to purchase bitz. Bitz Order wasn't something one in a dozen people used once in a blue moon: It was something that most of the shop used at least once a week if they were working on a project.

Working in the logistics and supply chain industry i can understand *why* GW canned the bits business...
Even though it was well used, I'm guessing the over head of having a decent stock management system, the physical warehouse space to run it in, and the poor trolls to actually do the work made it just not viable enough for them to keep it going... especially with
a) expanding product lines (WOTR etc) and
b) a sudden need to reduce costs (this is the biggy)

Its a real shame its no longer there :(

The main reason GW gets away with raising prices so often is that people still buy their product, even a grossly inflated prices.

There are two main reasons people still buy their product as opposed to some alternative:

1) GW minis look true to the GW fluff.

2) GW requires GW minis to be used in GW tournies and GW stores. If you use an alternative, you cannot participate in GW tournies or at GW stores.

So if you intend to compete in GW tournies, or if your flgs is a GW store, you are stuck. Likewise if you really really prefer the look of the GW minis.

Otherwise... search the alternate manufactureres for something suitable, and save some dough.

Vulcan wrote:The main reason GW gets away with raising prices so often is that people still buy their product, even a grossly inflated prices.

There are two main reasons people still buy their product as opposed to some alternative:

1) GW minis look true to the GW fluff.

2) GW requires GW minis to be used in GW tournies and GW stores. If you use an alternative, you cannot participate in GW tournies or at GW stores.

You forgot:

3) Some people have enough disposable income and don't mind paying what GW is asking.

With people setting up their own bits businesses GW still makes some money selling the kits to these businesses without having to actually run any sort of bits operation.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:This is as close as you will get with planned obsolescence through GW products/services. As a matter simple fact, even this doesn't hold up at all; your plastic soldiers from two decades ago, can be used in their same role today. If you play squats... too bad I suppose. It still is not planned obsolescence, it is supply and demand (no demand, no supply).

There was a demand for squats and they were a constant moderately good seller. They withdrew them because they didn't like them, not because they didn't sell. There are plenty of other examples more recent than 20 years ago. How about Dogs of War, or Chaos Dwarves? Then there's various individual figures in armies everywhere that are left with illegal weapon combinations or figures that no longer are supported. I'm not up to speed with the Tau, but didn't they lose some of their stealth suit miniatures after their first Codex? And currently it looks like support for the Witchhunters and Deamonhunters might be on the wane with reduced lists being published in future. Where that leaves people with large armies of such things I'm not sure. And now thinking about it, what about the Kislev army list published for 6th edition? Is that going to be updated? Are the figures still available?

If they don't update tau I'll be stuck with 2 armies I can't use; tau and my chaos dwarfs.

mikhaila wrote:

Two-Step wrote:
I remember buying WD magazine for $5.00, now it is $10.00. The sad part is that I am only interested in about 1/3 of the magazine (40K part), the rest is wasted paper as far as I am concerned.

I have heard complaints from retailers, especially the smaller ones, because they are being made to stock items that simply don't sale in their stores. More than anything, this practice is hurting many of the smaller shops, which is about all that we have in this area.

Your local store is tacking on an extra buck then, since WD has a 9.00 price on the cover.

And about those complaints from smaller stores being MADE to stock items? Just not true.

-You can have a direct account with GW and order just what you want. You pay shipping. If the order is over 400.00, GW pays the shipping. This is standard in the game industry. If I order from Alliance, or ACD, I pay shipping, unless I'm over 300/350 dollars, and then they pay shipping.

-If a retailer stocks the bare minimum of plastic boxes and starter sets for all 3 systems, then GW lets you order any dollar amount, and get free shipping. Plus they give you 600.00 a year in prize support for your tournaments.

What you're hearing is "Waaaah! I just want to order 40k, and I want all the benefits other stores get! Waaaah!"

Nothing, Nothing, Nothing in GW's terms of business require a store to order certain items, or amounts from them. Nothing. Meeting requirments for a stockist store is easy. It's bare minimum to carry GW at all, in my opinion.

And if a store doesn't want to deal with GW, they can order it elsewhere, from a regular game distributor and tack it onto their normal order.

Can't sell what you don't have. What might be hurting those 'smaller stores' is not having enough stuff to sell. You won't get bigger by not having what your customer wants to buy.

Sorry for the rant. But it really gets me angry at times, simply because GW actually gives more support to games stores than any other manufacturer. And it's really easy for a store to get that support. But the ones that don't try, and don't order the product, don't deserve to get the support that others met the requirements for.

First of all, I pay sales tax at both the state and federal level. That means that a $9.00 magazine cost me about $10.00. The Government is tacking on the extra dollar, not the retailer.But, that is still TEN DOLLARS OUT OF MY POCKET.

Second, the retailer I am talking about has to stock certain items, even the ones that are not popular or don't sale. Granted, it may just be that he has a douchebag sales rep. If that is the case, then it is the same douchebag sales rep that many other retailers have and the same douchebag sales rep that I talked to a few years ago when I thought about selling GW products. If it isn't true, as you say, then why do so many smaller shops buying from GW say the exact same thing and why was I told the very same thing a few years ago? Are you saying that GW has a douchebag sales rep, who is just trying to bump his numbers?

Third, What hurts retailers is stocking items that don't sale. For example, if Lord of the Rings does not sale( the case here), yet they have to carry the line in order to remain "GW authorized", then they are being hurt. If nobody is interested in a product line it won't sale... no matter how much or little of it a shop has.

Fourth, every retailer deserves the same support as any other, no matter how big or small. I find it interesting that you don't think so and said as much in your post. You almost sound like a sales rep trying to bump numbers, instead of an actual GW customer and fan. But, surely that can't be the case, not after your "waaah" remark about smaller shops carrying what they don't want, in order to keep their "GW authorization" or what ever it is called.

Remember, the larges retail chain in the world started off as a small general store in a little towe, in Arkansas. While a hobby shop may not have quite the same success, it is they that keeps GW in business. Sure, folks can buy directly through GW or through a web site, but it is the local retailer that is providing a place to play. If they don't get the same support as larger shops, then the small retailer may have to stop carrying the product, thus causing many folks to have no where to play and no reason to buy further GW products. I know... it happened where I live and only now is the GW community staring to build momentum.

He's not saying you need to carrying items to be "GW Authorised", quite the opposite actually.

mikhaila wrote:-You can have a direct account with GW and order just what you want. You pay shipping. If the order is over 400.00, GW pays the shipping. This is standard in the game industry. If I order from Alliance, or ACD, I pay shipping, unless I'm over 300/350 dollars, and then they pay shipping.

Order anything you like for store, order over $400 worth, get free shipping

mikhaila wrote:-If a retailer stocks the bare minimum of plastic boxes and starter sets for all 3 systems, then GW lets you order any dollar amount, and get free shipping. Plus they give you 600.00 a year in prize support for your tournaments.

Stock 40k, WFB and LoTR and what are regarded as the core sets to support that, and get free shipping even on sub $400 orders

So, if you don't want to stock specific items, order large, or pay shipping, like every other distributor requires.
OR
Stock a small amount of items to qualify for an incentive scheme to stock said items, and get free shipping on your orders, and get $600 worth of prizes a year to support tournies. Sounds like a small price to pay for the benefits to me.

Simple really.

Two-step wrote:Third, What hurts retailers is stocking items that don't sale. For example, if Lord of the Rings does not sale( the case here), yet they have to carry the line in order to remain "GW authorized"

Only if they want free shipping on sub $400 orders and $600 of prizes a year.

Two-step wrote:Fourth, every retailer deserves the same support as any other, no matter how big or small.

They do.

I don't know about the situation with what people can order and arrangements with sales reps, but my LGS has an interesting time dealing with GW. Obviously he makes money from stocking their stuff which is why he maintains it. But from what I understand, while he can order specific items for customers, he's also given regular deliveries of things and he is lumbered with stuff that he can't sell such as LOTR, and that's costly when you take into account the high wholesale price GW place on things. Other times there are high demand items and GW simply won't supply them...it's a love/hate thing really, they are items that make money and pull in customers but they can be frustrating to deal with. This idea that they can't help the independent retailers enough simply doesn't add up.

The biggest complaint seems to be about the price hikes that may or may not be on their way.
The other complaint seems to be over the constant changes that GW makes to their product lines.
Both are necessary.

Why shouldn't GW raise their prices. After all, they have to pay their employees, just like every other business. Folks want higher pay and better benefits... that money has to come from someplace.

Also, I always encourage people to buy from local shops. Aside from contributing to your local economy, it also helps provide a support system to the player, by allowing customers to buy their models and often provides a place to play, in the way of regular games to tournaments... not something you are going to get from a on-line store.

Retailers don't like higher prices any more than the customer, but they do have to pass those increase on to us. The local shop here, offers a membership program, which allows customers to take advantage of in-store discounts. GW has a pretty decent profit margin and while the MSRP may be a bit high, it gives the retailer enough room to offer discounts and still make a profit.

Remember, we may not like the higher prices, but if we worked for GW, we would want to get paid and benefited just like everyone else.
Also, GW (IMHO), is absolutely the best over all miniatures wargame company in the world.

My recommendation is "Don't let the higher prices or the possibility of higher prices turn you from GW." If you feel that a 2k point army is out of your budget, think smaller. Even tough I always maintained a 2K army or two, I also took part in my fair share of 500pt, kill team and "pit" games. While not necessarily GW sanctioned, they can be every bit as much fun as fielding a full 2000+ point army.

Right now, the price increase is a rumor.. but expect it anyway and start saving now.

Two-Step wrote:Why shouldn't GW raise their prices.

Of all the things I've asked in this thread, I'm still waiting for an explanation why an army with absolutely no model changes in the last five years (Longer than that, actually: Since the last O&G army book) costs a full 50% / $140 more now than it did five years ago.

I'm still waiting for an answer.

EDIT: The reason Fantasy Players need a 2000+ point army is because, unlike 40K, they're being deprived force organization choices. 40K you can take 2 HQ's, 3 Elite / Fast Attack / Heavy Support, and 6 Troops at 200pts, you can take that at 3000pts. In WHFB, you cannot use your Lord characters until 2,000pts. Some War Machines / Units take up multiple force organization slots, and similarly cannot be used until higher point levels. Sure, you can make a bunch of under-2K lists, but don't be surprised if you only get to use them against newbies or during the once-in-a-blue-moon Mordheim / Warbands campaigns.

Two-Step wrote:My recommendation is "Don't let the higher prices or the possibility of higher prices turn you from GW." If you feel that a 2k point army is out of your budget, think smaller. Even tough I always maintained a 2K army or two, I also took part in my fair share of 500pt, kill team and "pit" games. While not necessarily GW sanctioned, they can be every bit as much fun as fielding a full 2000+ point army.

Why? Unless you are satisfied by playing WH40k in it's most limited form, that is a lame excuse to buy GW products.

For persons first army, they can expect to drop in the region of 300-500$ (plus 50-100$ for painting/modeling supplies), period. If you feel like plinking around with tiny armies, that is great; but you're going to have a hell of a hard time finding many games. Minimum army size to start should be at least 1000 points, if you want to play decent games that is.

A much better way to go about getting into the game, is to start up with a small force, with plans to add to it over time. If all you can afford is a small 500 point army for years, I can honestly think of many other things that your money would be better spent on.

It was brought up in an earlier thread dealing with price rises.

In 1999 the SM tactical box cost was $35 for ten medal dudes. Min. wage in the US was 4.75. You had to work 8 hours to get that box of marines.

In 2009 min. wage is $7.50 and the box of marines are plastic, much nicer looking and cost $35. So now you only have to work on average of 4.5 hours to get that same box of Marines which are actually better.

So GW might be raising their prices faster than inflation but for those of us in the USA at least assuming some poor schmuck has been working minimum wage the past 10 years (and that's a pretty crappy employee if the only raises he gets are the mandatory min. wage increase) it requires less work to afford the same thing.

If you are someone making $150,000+ per year and whine about GW prices here's a tip......sell one of your 3 BMW's. You don't stinking need 3 of them or move out of your $500,000 house and downgrade to a $200,000 house and use the money saved on mortgage payments to fund GW.

In general, the modern Space Marine range seems to have gotten a lot better over time, while prices have remained similar to what they were at the start of 3rd edition, or in some cases even dropped. Vehicles and characters are somewhat expensive, but the basic squads have gone up in quality and options while remaining at similar prices. Further, most characters can be converted through using plastic pieces-- GW obviously knows this, so their expensive and metal characters make up for it by generally being really good sculpts. I consider 2009 Space Marines to be almost an objectively better deal than 1998 Space Marines.

Fetterkey wrote:In general, the modern Space Marine range seems to have gotten a lot better over time, while prices have remained similar to what they were at the start of 3rd edition,

They have increased, but when I went through the '04-'05 catalogue I have I was surprised to see the variance between 40K and WHFB armies. Namely, that on average WHFB models seemingly have been becoming a lot more expensive on average than 40K models. The reason for this is mostly because, while 40K models have been increasing, they also have been increasing the number of special weapon options in a box and thus limiting the number of side blisters / mail orders needed.

But Terminators are still $20 more than they once were. And Ork Dreads are almost as much more expensive.

or in some cases even dropped.

Maybe from 3rd Edition, but in the last 5 years they've still been at a rise. Grots are the only models I can think of for certain that haven't gone up in price.

Vehicles and characters are somewhat expensive, but the basic squads have gone up in quality and options while remaining at similar prices.

For the most part, they're about $5 more on a equal-model basis. In return, they have more special weapons. Again, Fantasy is the one that's been hit harder with stuff like shifts from 20 for $30 (or $35, now) to 10 for $22, but exactly zero option increases.

Two-Step wrote:Why shouldn't GW raise their prices. After all, they have to pay their employees, just like every other business. Folks want higher pay and better benefits... that money has to come from someplace.

Come off it. No one says GW shouldn't ever raise prices, but putting forward staff pay as a significant factor? Rubbish. The speed at which GW prices have gone up does not reflect wage increases, if anything as a company grows they should get the benefit of economy of scale where things like staff sickness and the like don't hit them as hard as a small business. Price increases are simply because the bean counters are trying to squeeze an ever greater amount of money from the product. It's not to do with meeting inflation or anything like that, what twaddle.

I can't help feeling GW have painted themselves into a corner on this one, the more they charge the less volume they ultimately sell, meaning they have to push the price up more in order to reap the same profits from the remaining customer base. Obviously there's a complex system of economics behind this, the numbers of stores opening and the extra customers reached is offset by additional taxes, employee payment and the like. But I can't help feeling that there's an element of diminishing returns, they could open a lot more stores and charge a lot more money, but ultimately the profit isn't drastically improved. GW have got their head down with increasing prices, it ultimately cannot go on forever but no onein charge seems to be ready to make a change of tack. I personally can't see how much they can continue to raise prices, what next for a box of 10 Space Marines, £25, £30?

Why shouldn't GW raise their prices? Well, umm because we don't like it? And I mean more than don't like it, no one finds the costs of things going up a pleasant experiance, it's the perceived unreasonableness of increases that annoy. We as customers have a right to express our opinions. GW can raise the prices whenever they like and however much they want, it doesn't mean we have to like it and it doesn't mean they are wise to make such increases, even though they have the power to do so.

Wrexasaur wrote:

Two-Step wrote:My recommendation is "Don't let the higher prices or the possibility of higher prices turn you from GW." If you feel that a 2k point army is out of your budget, think smaller. Even tough I always maintained a 2K army or two, I also took part in my fair share of 500pt, kill team and "pit" games. While not necessarily GW sanctioned, they can be every bit as much fun as fielding a full 2000+ point army.

Why? Unless you are satisfied by playing WH40k in it's most limited form, that is a lame excuse to buy GW products.

For persons first army, they can expect to drop in the region of 300-500$ (plus 50-100$ for painting/modeling supplies), period. If you feel like plinking around with tiny armies, that is great; but you're going to have a hell of a hard time finding many games. Minimum army size to start should be at least 1000 points, if you want to play decent games that is.

A much better way to go about getting into the game, is to start up with a small force, with plans to add to it over time. If all you can afford is a small 500 point army for years, I can honestly think of many other things that your money would be better spent on.

If you are able to afford to drop $300 -$500 on a first army and have never even played before, then good on you. But, not everyone can afford to do as such. If you think that you have to have a full on 2000+ point army to have fun, then go for it, but don't think for a second that it is necessary.

Not everyone lives in the lap of luxury and not everyone has so much money that they can drop that kind of money. Some people are lucky enough to have a mommy and daddy that has noting better to do with their money than to spoil their ungrateful brats. But, for the rest uf us, we realize that a full-on army will cost 40+ hours of hard manual labour... and that is for the bare basic 40K army. Even GW recognizes this fact of life.

If you take a look in the 4th edition 40K, there where Kill team rules. In the 5th edition RB, it mentions forming armies as small as 500 points. They even mention how much fun one can have with smaller armies. But, what do they know, they know... they just created the entire freaking system and line of models. Oh, and they are the ones who suggested it.

Even as a kid I had to pay for my own hobbies. I didn't get my money from my money bag mommy and daddy. In fact, there where times that they where borrowing from me in order to pay the bills. And all of tat was before the wonderful world wide recession that we are in now. When I was a kid I has an actual, honest to goodness job working on a horse ranch and delivering a news paper every day before school. But, jobs are harder to come by now...

BTW, unless it is a sanctioned game, you don't absolutely have to play with all GW miniatures. I happen to keep my force 100% GW because that is what I personally like. In fact, there are still plenty of folks that use paper cut-out figures. It is a great way to have a "test army" or to see if you actually want to play. Personally, all of my Grey Knights and Eldar or 100% GW figures and each army consists of 2000+ points. I also have a couple of smaller armies and am looking at building a full-on Tyranid army. But, I still like to "get back to basics" with a simple 500 point army and the occasional "pit fight".

Again, don't let the prices turn you off from playing, just think smaller. If the spoiled rich kids don't like it then find new friends. I am sure that there are plenty of people who would be more than happy to play 500 - 1000 points and simply start building larger from there. After all, if it was good enough for GW to put in their rule book, then it should be good enough for anyone else. Don't worry about what the spoiled rich kids are doing unless you are more worried about impressing them with how much money you can spend and still be a newb.

Fetterkey wrote:In general, the modern Space Marine range seems to have gotten a lot better over time, while prices have remained similar to what they were at the start of 3rd edition, or in some cases even dropped.

How do you figure that? When 3rd edition was released the 10 Space Marine box set was £10. Now it's £20, even adjusting for inflation that is not remotely "similar".

Minsc wrote:

Two-Step wrote:Why shouldn't GW raise their prices.

Of all the things I've asked in this thread, I'm still waiting for an explanation why an army with absolutely no model changes in the last five years (Longer than that, actually: Since the last O&G army book) costs a full 50% / $140 more now than it did five years ago.

I'm still waiting for an answer.

EDIT: The reason Fantasy Players need a 2000+ point army is because, unlike 40K, they're being deprived force organization choices. 40K you can take 2 HQ's, 3 Elite / Fast Attack / Heavy Support, and 6 Troops at 200pts, you can take that at 3000pts. In WHFB, you cannot use your Lord characters until 2,000pts. Some War Machines / Units take up multiple force organization slots, and similarly cannot be used until higher point levels. Sure, you can make a bunch of under-2K lists, but don't be surprised if you only get to use them against newbies or during the once-in-a-blue-moon Mordheim / Warbands campaigns.

The simplest answer is "Because they can".
The long answer would take a study in economics to understand. But to explain it in simple terms: When a business's expenses increase, such as for; employee pay and benefits, fuel, packaging, marketing, R&D, Etc.., those costs are passed on to the end consumer. That means higher prices, even on older models of a product. That is the cost of living in a capitalist society, where no matter how much you have, it is never enough.

The reason that the price is so drastic for older models is to keep them similar in price as the newer models. Also, while they are not paying the sculptor or for new molds and machinery, they still have to pay for all the other stuff, just like the brand new models.

I know that this doesn't explain it all, but maybe it helps ...

Fateweaver wrote:It was brought up in an earlier thread dealing with price rises.

In 1999 the SM tactical box cost was $35 for ten medal dudes. Min. wage in the US was 4.75. You had to work 8 hours to get that box of marines....

I got into 40k in early 2000. I could buy a box of 10 plastic 3rd edition SMs for $25 US. A similar box of 10 plastic SMs now costs $35 US.

Also note that just looking at wage increase in min wage is too selective. Other prices such as housing, groceries, gas, etc. need to be considered. If you don't have that x number of hours of labor left over for discretionary spending because it's eaten up by higher priced need expenses then it impacts the comparison a great deal. Just saying.

First of all, I pay sales tax at both the state and federal level. That means that a $9.00 magazine cost me about $10.00. The Government is tacking on the extra dollar, not the retailer.But, that is still TEN DOLLARS OUT OF MY POCKET.

And did the 5.00 you quoted also include sales tax? You were comparing prices. You need to compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. WD costs 9.00.

Second, the retailer I am talking about has to stock certain items, even the ones that are not popular or don't sale. Granted, it may just be that he has a douchebag sales rep. If that is the case, then it is the same douchebag sales rep that many other retailers have and the same douchebag sales rep that I talked to a few years ago when I thought about selling GW products. If it isn't true, as you say, then why do so many smaller shops buying from GW say the exact same thing and why was I told the very same thing a few years ago? Are you saying that GW has a douchebag sales rep, who is just trying to bump his numbers?

No, you're making up garbarge here. I'm telling you that any store can call up GW, open a direct account with them, and stock whatever they like. Period. Been that way for years. It's in their terms of sales.

Third, What hurts retailers is stocking items that don't sale. For example, if Lord of the Rings does not sale( the case here), yet they have to carry the line in order to remain "GW authorized", then they are being hurt. If nobody is interested in a product line it won't sale... no matter how much or little of it a shop has.

And they don't have to sell LOTR. No such thing as "GW authorized". You either have an account with GW, or you don't. You do not need to order LOTR to have an account with GW. If you want free shipping, you need to carry LOTR plastic boxes. This also gets you 600.00 in free product a year. You could become a stockist, order the LOTR, get 600.00 of 40k, and toss the LOTR in your basement.

Fourth, every retailer deserves the same support as any other, no matter how big or small. I find it interesting that you don't think so and said as much in your post. You almost sound like a sales rep trying to bump numbers, instead of an actual GW customer and fan. But, surely that can't be the case, not after your "waaah" remark about smaller shops carrying what they don't want, in order to keep their "GW authorization" or what ever it is called.

Your right, I absolutely don't think so. And I've gotten sick of hearing it over the years. You get support based mostly on the work you do to support GW. It shouldn't be the same for all stores, but the ones who don't get as much from GW seem to have their hands out demanding it every chance they get. In this case, the deal is "Stock all 3 lines of product, get free shipping with no minimum". And I've heard lots of small stores gripe about it. They want the benefit without qualifying for it.

Sure, every store deserves some support. But if one store is selling 200.00 a month in GW, and another is selling 20,000.00 a month, you really think GW should give them equal support? To sell more GW, a store uses more wall/floor space, ties up more inventory, needs staff better trained to sell the product, and needs to run more events and intro games. And that's why they get more support.

A store that runs tournaments gets prize support. Don't run events, or don't ask for the support, they don't get it. A store that runs a lot of events can get more than 600.00 a year. Partnership level stores get 1800.00 a year. Some stores get more than that, based on running a large number of events. Same thing for some big independent events. Adepticon gets a lot more than any other event. Will you be pissed that Adepticon gets more support than a 10 person RTT?


Remember, the larges retail chain in the world started off as a small general store in a little towe, in Arkansas. While a hobby shop may not have quite the same success, it is they that keeps GW in business. Sure, folks can buy directly through GW or through a web site, but it is the local retailer that is providing a place to play. If they don't get the same support as larger shops, then the small retailer may have to stop carrying the product, thus causing many folks to have no where to play and no reason to buy further GW products. I know... it happened where I live and only now is the GW community staring to build momentum.

Store does work, runs events, carries product = Gets support. Store doesn't do anything = no support. Simple.

Your information is flawed, and incorrect. You base it on knowing someone who once ran a store, and a phonecall to GW. Mine comes from dealing with GW several times a week, and running game stores for 22 years.

But hey, were all equal here on the internet, so keep believing what you want, i know I won't change any of what you 'know' about GW terms of business.

Two-Step wrote:Again, don't let the prices turn you off from playing, just think smaller. If the (less generalizations, more substance) other players don't like it then find new friends. I am sure that there are plenty of people who would be more than happy to play 500 - 1000 points and simply start building larger from there.

Ignoring the flamey goodness strewn throughout the rest of your post, this is basically what I said earlier.

Don't expect people to be happy to have small games with you constantly. No one is talking about apocalypse here, and a lot of players don't even care if you get around to painting your army. I started out playing games that were quite small, but almost everyone I played with had no interest in such small games. Working your way up to 1000 points will guarantee that more people will actually want to game with you, no hard feelings either way of course; it is their time as well though. A lot of people travel very far to game, and they would like to play with larger armies because that is basically their only interest to begin with.

If you are really low on funds, WH40k may not be the game for you overall. There are plenty of games that focus on skirmish style combat, and thus require much less investment in models. Not all gamers have more than one army, but most actually do. 2000 points per army, mainly for flexibility for smaller games, means you can play in nearly every competition and most players want 1500-2000 point games anyway.

Aduro wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:You nerf-herders can go on guessing if you like

::punch:: You people can't use that word! That's OUR word!

Hell yeah, You my nerf-herder!


Aaaaah Family Guy..... So funny.

On a more serious note, I was wondering: what the heck does minimum wage have to do with anything Fateweaver? I mean, 40k is an expensive hobby. If someone doesn't value it enough to shell out a day's salary for a Tactical Squad (you really shouldn't, 'cause most things are much more important), just don't buy them! It's not like it's GW's job to make their merchandise available to minimum-wage-earners because they'd never make any money. Nobody is complaining that the prices of video games or model cars are too high, "Why?", cause people accept that those things are expensive. Why can't we all just accept that GW is an expensive hobby too?

So, I just got in the Trade Order Form that goes through the next 3 months. No price increase that I can see.

So, I just got in the Trade Order Form that goes through the next 3 months. No price increase that I can see.

Thanks for sharing that, thereby proving once again that only on a 40K forum could we get an 8-page long discussion on a completely unsubstantiated rumor with not a single grain of truth in it. And even with the provided documentation that the rumor appears to be untrue there will probably be several more pages of discussion and general complaint about GW prices anyway. Happy New Year.

Fateweaver wrote:It was brought up in an earlier thread dealing with price rises.

In 1999 the SM tactical box cost was $35 for ten medal dudes. Min. wage in the US was 4.75. You had to work 8 hours to get that box of marines.

In 2009 min. wage is $7.50 and the box of marines are plastic, much nicer looking and cost $35. So now you only have to work on average of 4.5 hours to get that same box of Marines which are actually better.

how about we compare something more similar like plastics to plastics. except for a better special/heavy weapons sprue, you're getting the exact same 10 plastic marines now for $35 that you were in 1998 (IIRC they came out in 1998 in concert with 3rd edition) for $20. so, using your minimum wage numbers you had to work 4.2 hours back then at full retail price and 4.6 now. the analysis is different when you compare apples to apples and that's not even including the MUCH better routine discounts online stores gave back then (35% off)...

I agree , we need to compare same materials.
Its not that i like to nit pick how GW sell their stuff , but when the stuff they say doesnt make sense , its funny.

Remember how they say metal prices are going up while plastic should cheaper? It didnt happen at all , just saying GW isnt trust worthy with their own words.

privateer4hire wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:It was brought up in an earlier thread dealing with price rises.

In 1999 the SM tactical box cost was $35 for ten medal dudes. Min. wage in the US was 4.75. You had to work 8 hours to get that box of marines....

I got into 40k in early 2000. I could buy a box of 10 plastic 3rd edition SMs for $25 US. A similar box of 10 plastic SMs now costs $35 US.

Also note that just looking at wage increase in min wage is too selective. Other prices such as housing, groceries, gas, etc. need to be considered. If you don't have that x number of hours of labor left over for discretionary spending because it's eaten up by higher priced need expenses then it impacts the comparison a great deal. Just saying.

Not even remotely similar, actually.

Part of that price increase is the addition of several sprue changes, things like more weapons options, more decorative things like the scrollwork or the reliquaries for the Sergeant's backpack.

The 3rd edition SMs had, at most, ML/Flamer and some purity seals.

Just play Warmachines or hordes, necromunda, or Epic, you don't need that many minis to play a respectably sized game.

If you see local games of epic then you will see...

What's the point of epic if you don't have tons of stuff all over the board?) We used to play with huge armies, and that was what made it different from 40k. Apocalypse fills the void now.

Necromunda is a good example though, of a game with very few miniature needs.

Hordes and Warmachine aren't. They start small, and then the average person ends up with 400-700 of a faction, and then starts another.