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2010/04/12 22:40:14
Subject: Dawkins plans to arrest the Pope. No, really!
It seems to me that you were expressing absolute faith that he'd suceed without any evidence. Seems sorta fanatical to me.
Am I interpretting you incorrectly?
I respect him, moderately, as a scientist. I think he's out of his depth commenting on social issues and theology though, and frankly though I am agnostic I find him highly irritating.
Holy Smoke (pun intended), is this thread still going? Been at work all day finishing an essay on trams, so no time for the Pope vs Dawkins debate I started. I will however offer my hearty congrats to my fellow Off Topic contributors that this potentially flammable thread has managed to stay unlocked. We'll keep political/religious discussions on OT yet
Like i said, if the story is true (believe the times if you must) they will have their reasons for doing it and I'm sure they'll know exactly what the laws / rules are regarding the issue. As i am no advocate of the law, I take no interest in them.
Da Boss wrote:It seems to me that you were expressing absolute faith that he'd suceed without any evidence. Seems sorta fanatical to me.
Am I interpretting you incorrectly?
I respect him, moderately, as a scientist. I think he's out of his depth commenting on social issues and theology though, and frankly though I am agnostic I find him highly irritating.
My evidence is having read all (i believe) of his papers and books on many subjects. So when I say he will succeed, I mean it in the terms he will achieve whatever goal he has set out to. (Getting the pope arrested probably isn't the goal).
Emperors Faithful wrote:Y'know, when I first read this thread I thought the title was "Dakka plans to arrest the Pope."
Then we spirit him away to Frazzled's underground lair and hold him for ransom.
You mean pay us two million Euro or we let him go?
They might even pay a bonus to keep Frazzie in there too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fateweaver wrote:He used to have a show that was basically PR entrapment to the highest standards and has led to one man killing himself and lots more wrongfully accused of being molesters/predators.
It was cancelled and for good reason. I hate pedo's more than the next guy but that show had such a blatant disregard for legalities and pursuit of justice that even he admitted the show stepped on a few wrong toes a few times.
Thanks for the answer. Just looked up the show on YouTube. Interesting job, but how did it show false positives?
Yes yes my GoogleFu is fine.
Try to be a little less patronising please, without having seen the show there was no way I could reference the 'motivational' comment to the face, or now it was his TV tagline rather than just someones comment.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/13 10:49:54
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2010/04/13 21:58:58
Subject: Dawkins plans to arrest the Pope. No, really!
Quite an amusing read, and if you ask me.. The Pope is a nasty man. I didnt know just how much the guy apparently knew...
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
2010/04/13 22:10:41
Subject: Dawkins plans to arrest the Pope. No, really!
Is he going to arrest the Taoiseach on his next state visit too?
If not, then this really is just his bias against religion, and not any honest attempt at justice.
Da Boss wrote:Is he going to arrest the Taoiseach on his next state visit too?
If not, then this really is just his bias against religion, and not any honest attempt at justice.
ding ding ding.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2010/04/13 22:43:38
Subject: Dawkins plans to arrest the Pope. No, really!
He's the prime minister of ireland- so head of the state that colluded massively with the church since the existence of the Republic.
I mean, if we're not arresting him, I'm fine with arresting the various former Taoiseachs and any Garda Commissioners still knocking about.
More to the point and before we start waiving bells and calling time. Is the Taoiseach accused of a crime in the same manner that the pope is and does Dawkins believe that Ireland's claim to sovereignty is invalid?
Not the current Taoiseach, I'll grant. I'd also need to go look at the reports and so on to be solid on who you could reasonably arrest.
I don't think that invalidates my point though.
Da Boss wrote:Not the current Taoiseach, I'll grant. I'd also need to go look at the reports and so on to be solid on who you could reasonably arrest.
I don't think that invalidates my point though.
They are talking about specific acts by a specific person whereas you seem to be criticizing a general position, not a specific individual
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2010/04/13 23:43:28
Subject: Dawkins plans to arrest the Pope. No, really!
mattyrm wrote:
Quite an amusing read, and if you ask me.. The Pope is a nasty man. I didnt know just how much the guy apparently knew...
Neither did I. I read about the Kiesle case today and he 'smoking gun' letter released pretty much sums it up, it now appears Ratzinger knew and acted directly to collude to obstruct justice and harbour a felon.
However one potential caveat to that. We have not seen the document in its entirity or know what information Ratzinger actually had when he signed. But that is not what bothers me
Hitchens was going on about the churches cover up of the predator Murphy who was charged with looking after several hundred deaf children and is alleged to have abused approximately 200 of them. (see article below) This was brought to the attention of the Vatican only in 1996 long after the priest had retired and two years before he died, yet it was brought to the attention of the US authorities in the 1950's according to the same report Hitchens linked to. Later attempts to alert the authorities in the 90's were rebuffed as quoted below:
They were outraged. They distributed “Wanted” posters with Father Murphy’s face outside the cathedral in Milwaukee. They went to the police departments in Milwaukee, where they were told it was not the correct jurisdiction, and in St. Francis, where the school was located, Mr. Conway said. They also went to the office of E. Michael McCann, the district attorney of Milwaukee County, and spoke with his assistant, William Gardner.
“A criminal priest was an oxymoron to them,” Mr. Conway said. “They said they’ll refer it to the archdiocese.”
We cannot go after the scum who committed the crime, but we are not after them in the cases brought to light. Murphy is dead, and Kiesle was finally convicted and imprisoned. The whole issue is now whether to go after people who helped collude, but Dawkins and Hitchens seem to be only interested in persuing 'justice' if the accused are religious leaders not government officials. This just smacks of partisan point scoring and grandstanding, and is not a search for justice or accountability. Thus the victims are a convenient lever to use for furthering anti-religious agendas. At least those articles from the other side of the Atlantic get the balance right point the finger fairly at all they find (as far as we can see) and the contents of those reports copy-pasted by Dawkins and Hitchens contain the only points of value in their commentaries.
One final point. Why should you find the stories of boys being raped amusing mattyrm? Yes it makes the Catholic church look bad, but do the ends justify those means that much?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/04/13 23:57:10
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2010/04/13 23:53:58
Subject: Dawkins plans to arrest the Pope. No, really!
Da Boss wrote:Not the current Taoiseach, I'll grant. I'd also need to go look at the reports and so on to be solid on who you could reasonably arrest.
I don't think that invalidates my point though.
They are talking about specific acts by a specific person whereas you seem to be criticizing a general position, not a specific individual
I apologise for not doing it myself, but if you look at the Murphy Report, you'll find a lot of evidence of specific wrongdoing.
I am criticising the position of focusing blame on the church, because it's bollocks.
(I'm not catholic by the way. Definitely not pro-pope. )
Let's get something straight: the pope is not being accused of any actual crime. The pope is being accused of "crimes against humanity" by someone who, despite what I'm sure seem like impressive credentials to people who have no reason to know better, is doing so because he doesn't like popes generally or even Christianity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/14 00:39:53
Da Boss wrote:Not the current Taoiseach, I'll grant. I'd also need to go look at the reports and so on to be solid on who you could reasonably arrest.
I don't think that invalidates my point though.
They are talking about specific acts by a specific person whereas you seem to be criticizing a general position, not a specific individual
I apologise for not doing it myself, but if you look at the Murphy Report, you'll find a lot of evidence of specific wrongdoing.
I am criticising the position of focusing blame on the church, because it's bollocks.
(I'm not catholic by the way. Definitely not pro-pope. )
I'm just trying to make sure I understand your point clearly. I'm not taking sides on this. Unless Frazz says I have to, of course.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2010/04/14 01:16:41
Subject: Dawkins plans to arrest the Pope. No, really!
Orlanth wrote:One final point. Why should you find the stories of boys being raped amusing mattyrm?
Don't be so facetious you knew what he meant.
Facetious, treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humour, quite the opposite in fact, I don't find this funny. I don't expect mattyrm to be ROFLMAO, but a smug enjoyment of an opponents misfortune is little less unhealthy under these particular circumstances. Sorry I cannot see amusement at any level and not just because I am concerned about what will happen to the Catholic church.
I am seeing too many people from Dawkins onwards capitalising on these misfortunes and I am hoping for a sense of self reflection for people to look at what they hope to see out of all this. After all many of the victims including the one I spoke to and the one mattyrm posted a link do NOT want to be a political football. Listen carefully to what the man is saying on 2:00 to 2:15 of the link
However what do we get if the only motive for dragging up these cases is to use their story as an attempt to make a point. Dawkins land Hitchens ikely dont give a flip about the victims, or they woukld be highlighting the secular abusers related to these cases and I am wondering if some here don't either. Just any excuse to drive a nail into the church.
Manchu wrote:Let's get something straight: the pope is not being accused of any actual crime. The pope is being accused of "crimes against humanity" by someone who, despite what I'm sure seem like impressive credentials to people who have no reason to know better, is doing so because he doesn't like popes generally or even Christianity.
I concur entirely. But in doing so let us not fall into the trap of also saying because its a politically motivated bash on religion there is no case to answer.
Though ironically if matters do come to court somewhere sometime for any of the clerics involved a defense lawyer would likely have a field day raising reasonable doubt regarding the possibility of evidence being contaminated by gross press bias. But then perhaps for Dawkins actually convicting the culprits is not the goal so much as getting to be seen to make the accusation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/14 01:20:20
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2010/04/14 01:27:24
Subject: Dawkins plans to arrest the Pope. No, really!
Orlanth wrote:I concur entirely. But in doing so let us not fall into the trap of also saying because its a politically motivated bash on religion there is no case to answer.
People like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Geoffrey Robertson are ensuring that the Church hierarchy--specifically, the Curia--feels totally confirmed in its antipathy about transparency and suspicion of the media so that no reforms are ever undertaken. Don't get me wrong, sexual abuse in the Church is over. But the causes of that abuse--or rather, the causes for why this remained under the raider within the various chanceries of the world will not be addressed. And that is really the only good thing that could come out of all this. So thanks a lot, Dawkins et al. You fething donkey-caves.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/04/14 01:29:31
Orlanth wrote:I concur entirely. But in doing so let us not fall into the trap of also saying because its a politically motivated bash on religion there is no case to answer.
People like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Geoffrey Robertson are ensuring that the Church hierarchy--specifically, the Curia--feels totally confirmed in its antipathy about transparency and suspicion of the media so that no reforms are ever undertaken. Don't get me wrong, sexual abuse in the Church is over. But the causes of that abuse--or rather, the causes for why this remained under the raider within the various chanceries of the world will not be addressed. And that is really the only good thing that could come out of all this. So thanks a lot, Dawkins et al. You fething donkey-caves.
I hope you meant
and not
I totally agree with you otherwise.
Night Watch SM
Kroot Mercenaries W 2 - D 3 - L 1
Manchu wrote: This is simply a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everyone says, "it won't change so why should I bother to try?" and then it doesn't change so people feel validated in their bad behavior.
can you tell I'm excited about Red's news from the other thread?
I can indeed. Who wouldn't? Though it does make you wonder whose authority he has it by, and if I can get into that inner circle.
Night Watch SM
Kroot Mercenaries W 2 - D 3 - L 1
Manchu wrote: This is simply a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everyone says, "it won't change so why should I bother to try?" and then it doesn't change so people feel validated in their bad behavior.
Manchu wrote:People like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Geoffrey Robertson are ensuring that the Church hierarchy--specifically, the Curia--feels totally confirmed in its antipathy about transparency and suspicion of the media so that no reforms are ever undertaken..
Sorry but that's a complete cop-out Manchu.
"We are afraid of what people will say, so we won't do the right thing."
You do the right thing because it IS the right thing. Not because of some political calculation.
Also, how do you know that the abuse situation is over? I sure wouldn't leave my sons alone with a Roman Catholic priest.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not on Dawkins side here. Orlanth has pretty much spelled it out.
GG
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/04/14 01:59:37
2010/04/14 02:02:38
Subject: Dawkins plans to arrest the Pope. No, really!
Manchu wrote:People like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Geoffrey Robertson are ensuring that the Church hierarchy--specifically, the Curia--feels totally confirmed in its antipathy about transparency and suspicion of the media so that no reforms are ever undertaken..
Sorry but that's a complete cop-out Manchu.
"We are afraid of what people will say, so we won't do the right thing."
You do the right thing because it IS the right thing. Not because of some political calculation.
Also, how do you know that the abuse situation is over? I sure wouldn't leave my sons alone with a Roman Catholic priest.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not on Dawkins side here. Orlanth has pretty much spelled it out.
GG
How many Roman Catholic Priests do you know? All of those I've met have been wonderful people.
Night Watch SM
Kroot Mercenaries W 2 - D 3 - L 1
Manchu wrote: This is simply a self-fulfilling prophecy. Everyone says, "it won't change so why should I bother to try?" and then it doesn't change so people feel validated in their bad behavior.
Pleasure is Everything. Pain is Nothing. 
W 2 - D 3 - L 1