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Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

loki old fart wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Okay, so they used nonlethal commonly accepted crowd control methods to subdue people.

So what?

Which part didn't you understand?

also witnessed the Mavi Marmara being stormed from above by helicopter and said the Israelis started firing before their troops touched down on the boat.

What were they firing at?

Further what were they firing? paintball guns look and sound a lot like carbines.

Good point
And the activists not knowing the difference, may have responded by grabbing anything to defend themselves.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

loki old fart wrote:Alex Harrison, a Free Gaza activist who was on the smaller Challenger yacht, which was crewed mainly by women

Wait, we finally have a point to this thread. How do you get this kind of gig? Its too late for my but my boy knows how to sail.

I don't think that you want to have your spring break end by being apprehended by israeli commandos.

Thats why you volunteer to man the helm and change course for the Bahamas. Women can't tell direction anyway, they'd never know until they got there, and by then the music is playing and rum being poured.

yacht+soul male+female crew+"brokencompass"+Trinidad=profit!

After the first victim fell the white flag was raised, he said, but Israeli forces continued firing. "I think the Israeli soldiers were shooting to kill because most of the people who died were shot in the top part of their bodies," he said. He believed that later victims were injured in their legs after a "tactical move" by the commandos to wound rather then kill.

"I have seen some selective footage that the Israelis have chosen to put out suggesting that we responded with violence," she said. "You must remember that these are unarmed civilians on their own boat in the middle of the Mediterranean. People picked up what they could to defend themselves against armed, masked commandos who were shooting."

The nine victims

Cengiz Alquyz, 42

Four gunshot wounds: back of head, right side of face, back, left leg

Ibrahim Bilgen, 60

Four gunshot wounds: right chest, back, right hip, right temple

Cegdet Kiliclar, 38

One gunshot wound: middle of forehead

Furkan Dogan, 19

Five gunshot wounds: nose, back, back of head, left leg, left ankle

Sahri Yaldiz

Four gunshot wounds: left chest, left leg, right leg twice

Aliheyder Bengi, 39

Six gunshot wounds: left chest, belly, right arm, right leg, left hand twice

Cetin Topcuoglu, 54

Three gunshot wounds: back of head, left side, right belly

Cengiz Songur, 47

One gunshot wound: front of neck

Necdet Yildirim, 32

Two gunshot wounds: right shoulder, left back

Frazzled wrote:
Further what were they firing? paintball guns look and sound a lot like carbines.

Look, maybe, sound, sorry no. I do suppose that a paintball could be mistaken for as carbine with a silencer.

Orlanth wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Further what were they firing? paintball guns look and sound a lot like carbines.

Look, maybe, sound, sorry no. I do suppose that a paintball could be mistaken for as carbine with a silencer.

Have you ever shot either Orlanth?

Frazzled wrote:

Orlanth wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Further what were they firing? paintball guns look and sound a lot like carbines.

Look, maybe, sound, sorry no. I do suppose that a paintball could be mistaken for as carbine with a silencer.

Have you ever shot either Orlanth?

I've shot paintball guns and real guns. I didn't find that they sounded particularly similar. Actual firearms are significantly louder with a much different report (explosive propellant just sounds plainly different than compressed co2).

Panicking people dont attack in coordinated melee tactics- they run and hide.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Orlanth wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Further what were they firing? paintball guns look and sound a lot like carbines.

Look, maybe, sound, sorry no. I do suppose that a paintball could be mistaken for as carbine with a silencer.

Have you ever shot either Orlanth?

I've shot paintball guns and real guns. I didn't find that they sounded particularly similar. Actual firearms are significantly louder with a much different report (explosive propellant just sounds plainly different than compressed co2).

Generally they are louder (I'd note my .22 rifles aren't). But if you've not heard them before how would you tell the difference?

Frazzled wrote:

Orlanth wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Further what were they firing? paintball guns look and sound a lot like carbines.

Look, maybe, sound, sorry no. I do suppose that a paintball could be mistaken for as carbine with a silencer.

Have you ever shot either Orlanth?

Either not both, but an unsilenced long arm is a very distinctive sound. anywasy if the cause of the resistance by passengers was shooting paintballs from helicopters then it doesnt help your case. Wityh the sound of the helicopters lighta and everything going on at once....

The commandoes knew what they were supposed to be doing, by definition the crew wound not. The attack would come at an odd hour after being surrounded by boats for many hours, the activists were angry scared, panicy and likely tired, if the operation was started by shots from helicopters I could ee that causing a real panic. I can also more excuse activists who thought they were going to be shot indiscriminantly and decided instinctively to fight back. It might be some time before anyone realised the initial volley were paintballs.

They are sounding less and less like terrorists and more and more like mishandled civilian activists. So uif they were opened fire upon fromt he helicopter the guys on the deck would think, OMG we are being shot at. Then an israeli fast ro0pes in front of you, its natrual to beleive he will open up indistriminently too. Pushing him away to land 14ft onto the deck below is now sounding very reasonable. Under the circumstances. Then what happens is the commandeos open up and shrt shootinfg with real guns because you have done that.

Feth up.

Thanks to the quote from loki we can see the pattern of wounds further, too many are from multiple sides and four look to include 'finishing shots' to the neck or temple at odds to where else the activist was hit.

Would the activists have known the difference,
I doubt if they have ever fired a gun

And Shuma is right- even pepperball launchers being ramped up in pressure compared to paintball guns are no where near as loud as a regular fire arm. Trust me, to get qualified with one I had to be shot with it.

Helps my case just fine. You flash a pipe. I empty a clip in your face and the guys in the helicopter open up too.

Mistress of minis wrote:Panicking people dont attack in coordinated melee tactics- they run and hide.

Thats the flight half of fight or flight, and it's a difficult half to perform on a ship where there isn't much room to run. It also ignores the impact of superior numbers and mob mentality when faced with adverse and violent circumstances in an enclosed space. The psychology of the situation is fairly apparent in the videos and in the situation itself. They were ill prepared for a fight (given their lack of weapons), but they were seemingly willing to have one (given the initiation of hostilities as the first commando landed). The video doesn't tell particularly much beyond the instigation of hostilities in that particular instance, it most certainly cuts out at a rather odd time.

Frazzled wrote:Helps my case just fine. You flash a pipe. I empty a clip in your face and the guys in the helicopter open up too.

Not really

After the first victim fell the white flag was raised, he said, but Israeli forces continued firing

Frazzled wrote:Helps my case just fine. You flash a pipe. I empty a clip in your face and the guys in the helicopter open up too.

Thats a war crime frazzled (though that would require that turkey accept the declaration of war). On the high seas it would just be paramount to murder. You need more concrete circumstances for 'self defense' than 'they flashed a pipe'.

loki old fart wrote:After the first victim fell the white flag was raised, he said, but Israeli forces continued firing. "I think the Israeli soldiers were shooting to kill because most of the people who died were shot in the top part of their bodies," he said. He believed that later victims were injured in their legs after a "tactical move" by the commandos to wound rather then kill.

"I have seen some selective footage that the Israelis have chosen to put out suggesting that we responded with violence," she said. "You must remember that these are unarmed civilians on their own boat in the middle of the Mediterranean. People picked up what they could to defend themselves against armed, masked commandos who were shooting."

Well if he said and she said that must make it the truth. I mean, they said it after all, and I can't think of any examples of a witness being wrong in their recollections of traumatic events. It's not as if a Palestinian or Israeli supporters would lie, or touch up the truth a bit either.

loki old fart wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Helps my case just fine. You flash a pipe. I empty a clip in your face and the guys in the helicopter open up too.

Not really

After the first victim fell the white flag was raised, he said, but Israeli forces continued firing

their veracity is less than nothing.

Orlanth wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Orlanth, get your facts straight before talking out of your ass.

You've, I assumed, watched the video at least once, right?
Notice the "menacing rifles" carried by the Israelis. They have a hopper on the top.

They're paintball guns loaded with a crowd control ammo called "Pepperball".

We can assume this is not what was used to shoot the activists who died. The soldiers drew their pistols and opened fire with them at short range.

I really do not believe the activists was paintballed to death.

Gee, no surprise there. However, "Pepperball" is a nonlethal ammunition that is used for crowd control. It doesn't work, however, if one covers their mouth and nose with a wet cloth. Tasers don't work if someone's wearing thick enough clothes, simply because there's no contact from the metal probes into the nerve system. Tear gas can have issues working on subjects for the same reasons that Pepperball wouldn't work.

I find the other equipment they were carrying as not really relevant, they could have been carrying inflatable sheep. It doesn't matter, that matters is that the drop was mishandled, commandoes dropped too close to panicy frightened and angry people without warning and as a result of the scuffle that ensued nine activists were killed by gunshot wounds and several others wounded.

Panicy and frightened don't sound like anything relevant, considering that these people were grabbing the rope as the first commando came down and shake him off of it.
That same guy had his pistol taken when he was on the ground after being clubbed by people waiting at the bottom of the rope with piping. The protesters even admitted as much that they got some of the pistols off the Israelis and started brandishing them around.

You do not feth around with non-lethal ammunition when someone starts waving a gun around.

What else is relevant is that some of the activists who suffered fatal injuries showed wounds that indicated that they were finished off.

And the USMC's sniper corps was investigated early on in their deployment in Iraq due to the fact that an extremely high number of headshots were being confirmed.
What's your point?

Funny things happen with firearms when you've got a trained shooter using them. People actually go down.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Helps my case just fine. You flash a pipe. I empty a clip in your face and the guys in the helicopter open up too.

Thats a war crime frazzled (though that would require that turkey accept the declaration of war). On the high seas it would just be paramount to murder. You need more concrete circumstances for 'self defense' than 'they flashed a pipe'.

1. bs. Thats lethal force responding to lethal force. get your definitions straight.
2. Please show me what war crime? Where?

Frazzled wrote:

loki old fart wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Helps my case just fine. You flash a pipe. I empty a clip in your face and the guys in the helicopter open up too.

Not really

After the first victim fell the white flag was raised, he said, but Israeli forces continued firing

their veracity is less than nothing.

Neither side has a particular history with veracity in situations similar to this, and this he said she said debate with no impartial judge is incredibly circular.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Neither side has a particular history with veracity in situations similar to this, and this he said she said debate with no impartial judge is incredibly circular.

I agree completely.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Mistress of minis wrote:Panicking people dont attack in coordinated melee tactics- they run and hide.

Thats the flight half of fight or flight, and it's a difficult half to perform on a ship where there isn't much room to run. It also ignores the impact of superior numbers and mob mentality when faced with adverse and violent circumstances in an enclosed space. The psychology of the situation is fairly apparent in the videos and in the situation itself. They were ill prepared for a fight (given their lack of weapons), but they were seemingly willing to have one (given the initiation of hostilities as the first commando landed). The video doesn't tell particularly much beyond the instigation of hostilities in that particular instance, it most certainly cuts out at a rather odd time.

Have you ever had to use crowd control tactics on an angry mob? Any real training or experience in that field, or are you just talking out of some book or belief you know about this stuff?

Ill prepared in that they didnt have guns- true- but they didnt pull those 3 foot metal pipes out of their asses.

The people on the other boats werent harmed- and they didnt attack the boarders- if this was the bloodthirsty raid some are making it out to be- wouldnt the IDF have killed everyone so there werent any pesky witnesses?

Exactly.

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Helps my case just fine. You flash a pipe. I empty a clip in your face and the guys in the helicopter open up too.

Thats a war crime frazzled (though that would require that turkey accept the declaration of war). On the high seas it would just be paramount to murder. You need more concrete circumstances for 'self defense' than 'they flashed a pipe'.

1. bs. Thats lethal force responding to lethal force. get your definitions straight.
2. Please show me what war crime? Where?

No, thats lethal force responding to a pipe being flashed. I don't think I'm the one that needs to get their definition straight. Also killing the civilians of another nation on the high seas intentionally as a military operation is a declaration of war.

a Palestinian member of the Israeli Knesset who was aboard the Mavi Marmara, is now under armed protection after nearly 500 people signed up to a Facebook page calling for her execution.

"Israel wanted many deaths to terrorise us and to send a message that no future aid convoys should try to break the siege of Gaza," she told journalists this week.

Zuabi said that naval boats surrounded the Mavi Marmara and fired on it before soldiers abseiled aboard from a helicopter. She went below to the ship's hold and said that, within minutes, two dead passengers were brought inside, followed by two more who had been seriously wounded.

soldiers refused her requests for medical assistance for the injured passengers, who died shortly after.

Zuabi – known in Israel as an articulate Hebrew speaker – said that soldiers specifically asked her to translatetheir instructions. At first, she refused. "I shouted back, 'Why didn't you ask for my help before you murdered these people?'"

Less trolling please.

Indeed. This includes cracks about crazy pills and, charmingly, accusation of speaking out of ones ass. ESpeciallyf rom those who also are no more qualified to offer useful information on the topic.

Besides, Frazz has already horded a good 89% of the worlds crazy pills, "just because". We tried to liberate them but the hounds were set loose and the rest, alas, is yet another bloody tragedy upon the worlds' face.

ShumaGorath wrote:
No, thats lethal force responding to a pipe being flashed. I don't think I'm the one that needs to get their definition straight. Also killing the civilians of another nation on the high seas intentionally as a military operation is a declaration of war.

Find a cop. Flash a pipe at him. Report back on what happens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

reds8n wrote:

Less trolling please.

Indeed. This includes cracks about crazy pills and, charmingly, accusation of speaking out of ones ass. ESpeciallyf rom those who also are no more qualified to offer useful information on the topic.

Besides, Frazz and TBONE the Ten Lb Terror!!! have already horded a good 89% of the worlds crazy pills, "just because". We tried to liberate them but the hounds were set loose and the rest, alas, is yet another bloody tragedy upon the worlds' face.

Corrected your typo. Now its accurate.

Mistress of minis wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Mistress of minis wrote:Panicking people dont attack in coordinated melee tactics- they run and hide.

Thats the flight half of fight or flight, and it's a difficult half to perform on a ship where there isn't much room to run. It also ignores the impact of superior numbers and mob mentality when faced with adverse and violent circumstances in an enclosed space. The psychology of the situation is fairly apparent in the videos and in the situation itself. They were ill prepared for a fight (given their lack of weapons), but they were seemingly willing to have one (given the initiation of hostilities as the first commando landed). The video doesn't tell particularly much beyond the instigation of hostilities in that particular instance, it most certainly cuts out at a rather odd time.

Have you ever had to use crowd control tactics on an angry mob? Any real training or experience in that field, or are you just talking out of some book or belief you know about this stuff?

Ill prepared in that they didnt have guns- true- but they didnt pull those 3 foot metal pipes out of their asses.

The people on the other boats werent harmed- and they didnt attack the boarders- if this was the bloodthirsty raid some are making it out to be- wouldnt the IDF have killed everyone so there werent any pesky witnesses?

I think you need to reread my post and try not to put words in my mouth. Try taking my sentences for how they are actually stated. I stated that panic psychologically can lead to aggressive mob mentality and violence in enclosed spaces. This is the truth. It has been proven time and time again in both studies and in real world observations. Secondly I said that they were willing to have a fight but that they were ill prepared for one. You don't defend a boat with pipes. Even if you manage by some miracle to bludgeon the raiding military force the helicopter still has a gun and the boats the helicopter came from probably has even bigger guns. It's foolish and it's exceedingly unlikely they had planned to attempt an armed attack on israel under the guise of an aid ship by using metal pipes.

As an aside they probably pulled the pipes from the hold where they were transporting construction materials as aid.

I never said anything about it being a bloodthirsty raid, and I never spoke of the other boats. Also the IDF has yet to be confirmed as being real and it's 'reveal' is pretty suspicious as is.

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
No, thats lethal force responding to a pipe being flashed. I don't think I'm the one that needs to get their definition straight. Also killing the civilians of another nation on the high seas intentionally as a military operation is a declaration of war.

Find a cop. Flash a pipe at him. Report back on what happens.

Flashing pipe....in some neighborhoods that can get you a date with the right guys.....

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
No, thats lethal force responding to a pipe being flashed. I don't think I'm the one that needs to get their definition straight. Also killing the civilians of another nation on the high seas intentionally as a military operation is a declaration of war.

Find a cop. Flash a pipe at him. Report back on what happens.

Why is the cop fastroping onto my boat in international waters?