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gg?

lucasbuffalo wrote:Other than the whole hating an evil person versus slandering the symbol of an entire nation thing right?

I see you are failing to see that to them, America is the evil. What you are both doing is exactly the same just from opposite ends of the spectrum.

America has, both now and in the past, caused a lot of pain and suffering to the world. There is no denying that. You are not the shining light of the world bring peace, prosperity and the American way to the world.

It is natural that there is a lot of resentment towards this, even hatred.

It is the same reason I can accept that a lot of people feel the same about the UK - in the past we claimed vast quantities of the world as our territory and had occasion to treat the native peoples rather badly. More recently we have tagged along with the US in invading various countries. I accept that we have brought far more death and destruction to the places we (as a collective force) have been attempting to "save".

Your nation's seeming blindness to this is another factor that perpetuates the hatred.

You cheer the death of a person responsible for thousands of deaths, they demonstrate against the nation/nations that have caused hundreds of thousands of deaths. Can you really not see how it could be seen that you are as bad as each other? I have no more love of totalitarian regimes, religious extremists, repression, etc than anyone else, however, I can see and empathise with the viewpoints of both sides and if anything they have more "justification" for feeling as they do.

As I said above - you don't fight this kind of war with guns and bombs - you fight it with hearts and minds.

Yes, bin Laden is dead. It cost a lot to accomplish that feat. Too much by some estimates.

But now that that is done, what's next? I fear that we have been so focused on that one goal, we never though about the afterwards. There are still key members of the AQ that are running things, and they are now probably pretty POed. Best to keep a look out on things to come.

I am a little bit happy.

I aint buying it until I see a pic of his body so far the only pic is a fake. They buried his body at sea and hes only been dead around 12h this whole thing smells of something the man had alot of body doubles also. ps I dont mean to cause contreversy guys

SilverMK2 wrote:

lucasbuffalo wrote:Other than the whole hating an evil person versus slandering the symbol of an entire nation thing right?

I see you are failing to see that to them, America is the evil. What you are both doing is exactly the same just from opposite ends of the spectrum.

America has, both now and in the past, caused a lot of pain and suffering to the world. There is no denying that. You are not the shining light of the world bring peace, prosperity and the American way to the world.

It is natural that there is a lot of resentment towards this, even hatred.

It is the same reason I can accept that a lot of people feel the same about the UK - in the past we claimed vast quantities of the world as our territory and had occasion to treat the native peoples rather badly. More recently we have tagged along with the US in invading various countries. I accept that we have brought far more death and destruction to the places we (as a collective force) have been attempting to "save".

Your nation's seeming blindness to this is another factor that perpetuates the hatred.

You cheer the death of a person responsible for thousands of deaths, they demonstrate against the nation/nations that have caused hundreds of thousands of deaths. Can you really not see how it could be seen that you are as bad as each other? I have no more love of totalitarian regimes, religious extremists, repression, etc than anyone else, however, I can see and empathise with the viewpoints of both sides and if anything they have more "justification" for feeling as they do.

As I said above - you don't fight this kind of war with guns and bombs - you fight it with hearts and minds.

I see your point.

I disagree with you only on the point of motive.

America (at least it is the hope and belief of the citizens which unite under said flag) may not be a "shining light of the world bring peace, prosperity" but I hope that such is the intent. That each action started by my country, even if it ends poorly, was the result of some hope for causing a positive change.

Somehow getting into a war trying to do what you think is best and causing a lot of problems, and convincing people to smash planes into civilian areas rings a little different in my ears.

I'm sure my viewpoint is idealistic and simplistic, but I'm both of those things at time, as is America in general IMO.

Yugsor2011 wrote:They buried his body at sea

I don't recall that being in any of the news stories I read on this event.

Ahtman wrote:

Yugsor2011 wrote:They buried his body at sea

I don't recall that being in any of the news stories I read on this event.

No they supposedly have its on BBC news

lucasbuffalo wrote:

I see your point.

I disagree with you only on the point of motive.

America (at least it is the hope and belief of the citizens which unite under said flag) may not be a "shining light of the world bring peace, prosperity" but I hope that such is the intent. That each action started by my country, even if it ends poorly, was the result of some hope for causing a positive change.

Somehow getting into a war trying to do what you think is best and causing a lot of problems and convincing people to smash planes into civilian areas rings a little different in my ears.

I'm sure my viewpoint is idealistic and simplistic, but I'm both of those things at time, as is America in general IMO.

Unfortunately, most American foreign escapades tend to result from simple self-interest, as opposed to 'hope for causing a positive change'.

But that's the way of the world. It has been for a long time, and recognised as such ever since Clausewitz and Lenin published on the affair.

Time for a a quote from Rich Hall I think...

"He's the face the media have decided to put on terror, but it doesn't mean he's actually running the operation. It's kind of like Kentucky Fried Chicken. Just because the Colonel's picture's on the bucket, doesn't mean he's actually making the chicken."

Bin Laden being dead means nothing.

Ketara wrote:

lucasbuffalo wrote:

I see your point.

I disagree with you only on the point of motive.

America (at least it is the hope and belief of the citizens which unite under said flag) may not be a "shining light of the world bring peace, prosperity" but I hope that such is the intent. That each action started by my country, even if it ends poorly, was the result of some hope for causing a positive change.

Somehow getting into a war trying to do what you think is best and causing a lot of problems and convincing people to smash planes into civilian areas rings a little different in my ears.

I'm sure my viewpoint is idealistic and simplistic, but I'm both of those things at time, as is America in general IMO.

Unfortunately, most American foreign escapades tend to result from simple self-interest, as opposed to 'hope for causing a positive change'.

But that's the way of the world. It has been for a long time, and recognised as such ever since Clausewitz and Lenin published on the affair.

Again, I agree. I guess I just see more to the American flag, the symbol of my nation, than the result of plans laid by the s that make bad calls when given too much power.

Then again, there are people who are burning Korans due to Al Qaeda's actions, so I guess it's a back and forth of blaming the sins of the few on the faces of the many.


But still, an evil, civilian-slaying monster is dead. I'll continue my celebration regardless of criticism.

ShumaGorath wrote:American popularity dropped significantly in the wake of the war on terror and quite a few of the skeletons in our collective closet were let loose. I think by letting our baser instincts run wild he accomplished a pretty mean feat; that being the debasement and corruption of the "american dream" in the eyes of the world.

American popularity soared in the wake of 9/11, and only dropped once the Bush began the diplomatic dance in the build up to Iraq.

Iraq was an incredibly stupid thing, but it was the product of a very stupid single minded determination on the part of the Bush administration, not the product of Osama's attack on 9/11.

[MOD] Please note that bashing religions is not acceptable posting on DakkaDakka.com.

schadenfreude wrote:9/11 really screwed up the judgement of Bush/Cheney.

I would argue their judgement was fairly terrible before then, and there's every chance 9/11 delayed the drive towards Iraq by forcing the US into Afghanistan first.

What I'm saying is without 9/11 the Bush administration would never have had the political capitol or motivation to actually make the Iraq war a reality.

That could be true, I'm not sure. I know the US has never really had much difficulty in convincing the population to go off and fight wars before, but Iraq would have been a harder sell than most that had come before.

The goal of terrorism is often to goad a nation into doing something stupid,

I don't believe this. I believe the goals of terrorism vary considerably, and hoping to cause the enemy to respond in a foolish and incorrect manner can be a medium term goal, but only really in the sense of hoping the response will be so disproportionate and harmful to the local population that it ends up building support for the terrorists.

Long term you actually need achievable goals, and bin Laden had no such thing. When trying to make a case that you might 'respect' a mass killer, you need to claim what he achieved with his killing. bin Laden achieved nothing.

Add on top of that another mistake by the Bush administration was the sub prime bubble which in the short term injected a lot of money into the American economy.

The origins of the sub-prime bubble come from deregulation undertaken in the 90s, arguably in the 80s. It was across politics, the product of free market kool aid drunk not only by both sides of US politics, but most mainstream political parties across the developed world.


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paulguise wrote:Yes, bin Laden is dead. It cost a lot to accomplish that feat. Too much by some estimates.

But now that that is done, what's next? I fear that we have been so focused on that one goal, we never though about the afterwards. There are still key members of the AQ that are running things, and they are now probably pretty POed. Best to keep a look out on things to come.

There's been a lot of work done to dismantle AQ and try to change the social conditions in places that have produced most terrorists. It's been pretty widely documented that most anti-terror work has been focussed towards that goa, not towards catching bin Laden.

This is not the end.
This is not the beginning of the end.
It is however, I think the end of the beginning.
WINSTON CHURCHILL

The Abbottabad residence is just a few hundred metres from the Pakistan Military Academy - the country's equivalent of West Point.

Another senior US official said that no intelligence had been shared with any country, including Pakistan, ahead of the raid.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13256676

It's good that he's dead, but I tend to think the idea of responding to this event by running through the streets chanting and waving flags is a little tacky. Gloating over the death of another human being dishonours you.


But well done to the US servicemen involved in this operation - as ever, they seem to have discharged their duties with skill and professionalism.

Pakistan needs to account for this.

Something Awful has put up an "official" obituary: http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/bin-laden-obit.php

Congratulations to our American Allies for finally bagging the Feth-head, i only wish the British Armed Forces had been on hand to help.

Why? It ain't got nothing to do with us.

Oh, happy day. The retaliatory attacks will give you plenty of new excuses to invade other sovereign nations that just happen to have great strategic or economic value.

we lost people in 9/11 too as i recall, and Bin Laden didn't exactly have much love for us Brits.

marv335 wrote:Time for a a quote from Rich Hall I think...

"He's the face the media have decided to put on terror, but it doesn't mean he's actually running the operation. It's kind of like Kentucky Fried Chicken. Just because the Colonel's picture's on the bucket, doesn't mean he's actually making the chicken."

Bin Laden being dead means nothing.

Excellent news, but i have to agree, Osama's death will only put a morale boost into yihadist troops, its like that thorn that annoys you, only to be far worse when you put it out...

Is he dead - magically fast dna tests, burial at sea (so we cannot see the corpse for ourselves)

Information from gunantanemo detainees (thus justifying it in the first instance)

Then it takes place in pakistan without their knowledge or consent.. sounds like war moves to me..

I fear for the coming weeks I hope there isnt a string of terorr attacks etc

The response to the criticism I have about the theories that he's not really dead is as follows. If he weren't really dead, and Obama had announced he was dead...and then it later came out that he was wrong, and Osama was really alive, the political defeat for the OBama administration would be crushing. The death of Osama bin Laden is not something you announce unless you're damn sure he's really dead.


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BBC says he was buried at sea in order to keep to Islamic tradition and avoid creating a memorial to him.

ChrisWWII wrote:The response to the criticism I have about the theories that he's not really dead is as follows. If he weren't really dead, and Obama had announced he was dead...and then it later came out that he was wrong, and Osama was really alive, the political defeat for the OBama administration would be crushing. The death of Osama bin Laden is not something you announce unless you're damn sure he's really dead.


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BBC says he was buried at sea in order to keep to Islamic tradition and avoid creating a memorial to him.

Unless he's been dead for ages, and they've just decided to use this now for some reason. Bit conspiracy-theory-ish, but possible.

Yugsor2011 wrote:I fear for the coming weeks I hope there isnt a string of terorr attacks etc

Indeed, because Islamic fundamentalist terrorists have been looking for an excuse. It has been all restraint and diplomacy from those guys so far, but now after decades of peace they may turn violent.

Fafnir wrote:I don't think anyone should be celebrating anyone's death, even Bin Laden's. Sure, a man who did horrible things is dead, but it's not going to bring back any of the people who's deaths he's responsible for. It doesn't suddenly make it any better.

Lusall wrote:It's not in my nature to celebrate the death of anyone, not even someone as evil as Osama. But I shall neither mourn nor regret his passing.

Flashman wrote:As Lusall said, death is never really to be celebrated, but this is one of those occasions where I would have to say, "No great loss."

shingouki wrote:

Lusall wrote:It's not in my nature....

You have hit the nail on the head. I'm in complete agreement.

Albatross wrote:It's good that he's dead, but I tend to think the idea of responding to this event by running through the streets chanting and waving flags is a little tacky. Gloating over the death of another human being dishonours you.

I'm glad to see my sentiments are shared by others on this forum. Bin Laden was a terrible human being. I accept that. But celebrating his death in this way is to my mind deplorable. Despite the emotions felt during 9/11 (which I shared), quiet satisfaction would be the appropriate response, not parties, flag waving, and pictures of the president holding Osama's head.

I do not know the details of the operation, and at this point no-one but those involved does; but I firmly believe that he should have been captured, not killed. He should have stood trial at the Hague, found guilty, sentenced and punished. He should have been an example in the same way that Saddam Hussein was. Instead, an old man was killed in an obscure part of the world. Despite his crimes, he should have been treated better than that.
Remember: In a world where its an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth, no-one wins.

Furthermore, he has become a martyr to his casue. The USA has again confirmed in the eyes of their detractors that they are brutal, unforgiving, and uncaring (however untrue this statement is). This act will generate further attacks in retribution. To use a 40k analogy, Hive Fleet Behemoth may have been defeated, but it will now be shattered. Each barb as poisonous as the last.

Keeping him alive, and allowing the process of law to take its course may have spared us that.