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Sir P- Fair enough.

Happydude- If you follow up a post wishing Bin Laden to "Rest in Peace" with posts defending Hitler, there is a high likelihood that the moderators will decide that you're just trolling. This is a warning. Please choose your words with care, and exercise good taste to the best of your ability, at least when we are talking about mass-murderers, expecially ones whose organizations have murdered people that some of us personally knew.

This is splendid news to wake up to on a fresh Bank Holiday morning!

I had supposed that Bin Laden probably died years ago, if not in the original attack on Tora Bora then illness while hiding out in Pakistan.

It is very gratifying to have his death confirmed.

There may be a backlash, so we shall have to take care.

There'll be no more videos to sustain the spirit of Al Qaeda. I'm worried that the movement has enough momentum to keep going without Bin Laden around.

happydude wrote:

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

happydude wrote:R.I.P. Bin Laden

I do not condone his actions however as one who loves and reads up on wars and tyrants of all kinds I must say I have to respect a man who brought a nation to its knees single handed, specially one as powerful as the U.S.A. and I repeat for those who are selective readers, I do not condone his actions however respect the idea of an individual who had the ability to bring a nation down single handed. Much like Hitler whose military prowess (pre-1942) was insane, I do not condone his actions however respect his intelligence. I am not trying to offend anyone here.

You're greatly exaggerating both their accomplishments there. He bloodied our nose and gave a bunch of opportunists something scary with which to rally votes for themselves and pet projects related to security theater, from which they embezzled money while gutting actual security. Hitler was a buffoon who sabotaged his own war effort at every turn.

Mannahnin wrote:Sir P, I think that's a bit more cynical than I'm prepared to be. Al Q is closer to the "brand name franchise" as far as I can tell. They've had an existence since the USSR's efforts in Afghanistan. And while I think some parties have exaggerated their actions/threat, that doesn't mean they're not real people, doing actual terrible things.

I should have qualified it with an "at this point". It's a banner that gets taken up by organizations with no link to the actual/original organization, who may or may not actually accomplish anything (note that even without backing or contacts, a bunch of angry people with access to weapons can still do a great deal of damage, even when they're nothing more than the local equivalent of street gangs), as well as serving as a convenient buzzword for "terrorist/insurgent" for people who either want to portray the disparate groups of assorted militants as a monolithic structure, genuinely don't understand they're not, knows the people they're talking to don't, or wants some shadowy bogeyman to slander their political opponents with. That's not to say there's not probably some of the old network still left, but being relentlessly hounded and taken apart at every level by every intelligence agency on Earth tends to pretty bad things to one's ability to operate.

A buffoon? He brought 60+ million Germans OUT of the Great Depression within 6 Months of his Election, with Flying Colors, and put every Unemployed Person to Work, and still needed more Workers, who Built up and Supervised one of the the Greatest Armies who ever Fought, who Conquered more Nations in less Time with less Loss of Lives than any other Leader who ever Lived during all of Modern History, who still holds those Records until this very Day.

You are attributing a significant amount to hitler that he had little but supervisory input with. Hitler placed some very dedicated and intelligent people into power, but the structures and systems put in place were not designed not implemented by him in exclusivity.

WarOne wrote:I got lazy there and should of said Pakistani government.

But it's still the same problem, the Pakistani government is full of competing interests. Did you read my post?


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LittleLeadMen wrote:Forget it Sebster. I'm not going to go 12 rounds with all of you here on Dakka Dakka.

If you announce absurd things, you should expect to be challenged on them. If you can substantiate them, good luck to you. If you can't... then maybe you should stop believing absurd things.

I gave you a few documented (there are plenty more) statements of his death. They weren't speculation, they were news stories.

Stories about the death of someone that doesn't actually show the body, or include any statements from people saying they've seen the body, are speculative news stories.

It doesn't make them not-news, but it does mean that they really, really can't be counted as evidence years later.

Obviously, no man dies multiple times. So they can't all be accurate. But, by the same token, when's the last time you read multiple accounts of any major figure's death? It's bizarre.

It really isn't. I go so far as to say it's expected, especially when someone someone is hiding out, with covert ops teams trying to kill them.

I mean, Christ, Jeff Goldblum was announced dead on Australian tv, and he was never in hiding, and no-one was even trying to kill him. Steve-O from JackAss was similarly announced dead, despite being in the middle of filming a tv series.

I'm not going to defend anything to you just for argument's sake.

Defend because you think it's defensible and it's something people ought to know. If you make a good case I'd be happy to accept it. But right now your case is terrible, because you have offered absolutely no reaon why any group in the US would keep his death a secret until just now.

The sad truth is people like you want to shout people like me down as tinfoil hat kind of people, despite a tremendous amount of documentation of the actions our intelligence agencies engage in , day after day, year after year, for decades on end.

I've read plenty about the terrible and plainly illegal operations undertaken by US intelligence services. I have absolutely no idea why they'd keep him on ice until now to announce the death. It makes no sense.

But their operations, while frequently abhorrent and often utterly fantastical, tend to have some kind of logic or reason behind them. The conspiracy yuo're proposing here makes no damn sense.

Do yourselves a favor, and read "Legacy of Ashes". it won the Pulitzer Prize (is that mainstream enough for you guys?)

I've read it, and it's wonderful. But the sticker on my copy says it won the National Book Award, not the Pulitzer.

And while I came away from the book with a more complete understanding of the things the CIA will get up to for percieved national interest, nowhere in there did I conclude that the CIA does so for the lulz, which is the only reason you've yet managed to suggest the US killed him years ago and kept him on ice until today.

To the SEAL team responsible: Bravo LANGUAGE. FOLLOW THE RULES! Zulu!

happydude wrote:I do not condone his actions however as one who loves and reads up on wars and tyrants of all kinds I must say I have to respect a man who brought a nation to its knees single handed,

But he didn't. The impact on the US as a political and economic entity was minimal.

The Moderators respectfully request that the Hitler subject be dropped. It is off topic. Any further posts about it in this thread will be deleted.

happydude wrote:By your very constitution am I allowed to voice my opinion without fear of prejudice.

Sure, and we're allowed to tell you we believe you're wrong.

One of the benefits of living in N.America. And yes, his organization (Although I believe otherwise) apparently infiltrated the USA and for some time panic and chaos ensued, with ridiculous security counter measures now in place and an America now changed forever.

"He cause the US to begin a series of protocols that annoy airline travellers" is not exactly comparable with 'installed a fascist regime in one of the most powerful nations in the world then plunged the world into war".

sebster wrote:

happydude wrote:I do not condone his actions however as one who loves and reads up on wars and tyrants of all kinds I must say I have to respect a man who brought a nation to its knees single handed,

But he didn't. The impact on the US as a political and economic entity was minimal.

Really? How much money was spent on military funding afterward? Security? How many soldiers paid the ultimate price because of those actions with the military campaigns that ensued?

On facebook some groups and comments are getting out of hand, are you guys seeing half of this stuff? I knew people would be happy but there is no need for racial slurs and comments. Nothing towards this thread just spouting what I am seeing.

happydude wrote:Really? How much money was spent on military funding afterward? Security? How many soldeirs paid the ultimate price because of those actions? NEVER call that minimal...

But you respect the guy that caused those soldiers to have to pay the "Ultimate Price?"

That doesn't make sense.

happydude wrote:Not a public... are you for real?

This forum is on a server bought and paid for by private citizens. You're on someone's property, you should respect their rules.

sebster wrote:

happydude wrote:Not a public... are you for real?

This forum is on a server bought and paid for by private citizens. You're on someone's property, you should respect their rules.

I have tended to that refer to the later posts.


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Monster Rain wrote:

happydude wrote:Really? How much money was spent on military funding afterward? Security? How many soldeirs paid the ultimate price because of those actions? NEVER call that minimal...

But you respect the guy that caused those soldiers to have to pay the "Ultimate Price?"

That doesn't make sense.

I can respect certain actions of certain tyrants. I am actually quite fond of Caligula...

It's not in my nature to celebrate the death of anyone, not even someone as evil as Osama. But I shall neither mourn nor regret his passing. In the days to come, we will all argue and discuss the repercussions of this monumental event. Until then, let's all raise a glass to our soldiers and veterans who, through their blood, sweat, and tears have made this possible. Closure has been brought to many people, including myself. September 11th, 2001/May 1st, 2011: Never forget.

Lusall wrote:It's not in my nature to celebrate the death of anyone, not even someone as evil as Osama. But I shall neither mourn nor regret his passing. In the days to come, we will all argue and discuss the repercussions of this monumental event. Until then, let's all raise a glass to our soldiers and veterans who. through their blood, sweat, and tears have made this possible. Closure has been brought to many people, including myself. September 11th, 2001/May 1st, 2011: Never forget.

Totally agree to this. i really never meant to offend anyone here, especially my brothers to the south, I mean we need you guys to buy our hockey players and in turn you all win cups ;p But seriously a toast not only to soldiers in this war but fallen soldiers on all sides who made the ultimate sacrifice for what they believed in, whether right or wrong. * Actually taking a moment of silence *

happydude wrote:Really? How much money was spent on military funding afterward? Security? How many soldiers paid the ultimate price because of those actions with the military campaigns that ensued?

There's been about 1,200 US deaths, and spent around $400 billion. Which sucks for those soldiers and their families, and it'd be nice to have $400 billion less on the deficit, but in terms of "bringing a nation to its knees" the claim makes no sense.

But what has Osama achieved? What one thing that he might want has actually happened? What goals had he so amazingly achieved that he might demand respect?

sebster wrote:

happydude wrote:Really? How much money was spent on military funding afterward? Security? How many soldiers paid the ultimate price because of those actions with the military campaigns that ensued?

There's been about 1,200 US deaths, and spent around $400 billion. Which sucks for those soldiers and their families, and it'd be nice to have $400 billion less on the deficit, but in terms of "bringing a nation to its knees" the claim makes no sense.

But what has Osama achieved? What one thing that he might want has actually happened? What goals had he so amazingly achieved that he might demand respect?

American popularity dropped significantly in the wake of the war on terror and quite a few of the skeletons in our collective closet were let loose. I think by letting our baser instincts run wild he accomplished a pretty mean feat; that being the debasement and corruption of the "american dream" in the eyes of the world.

ShumaGorath wrote:American popularity dropped significantly in the wake of the war on terror and quite a few of the skeletons in our collective closet were let loose. I think by letting our baser instincts run wild he accomplished a pretty mean feat; that being the debasement and corruption of the "american dream" in the eyes of the world.

Indeed, the war on terror should have been fought with hearts and minds, not guns and bombs. It is a lot cheaper to build schools, hospitals, homes and infrastructure than it is to fight wars. There is a lot less collateral damage and bad feeling too.

As Lusall said, death is never really to be celebrated, but this is one of those occasions where I would have to say, "No great loss."

Flashman wrote:As Lusall said, death is never really to be celebrated, but this is one of those occasions where I would have to say, "No great loss."

Hopefully there is little retaliation, however I feel something dire will soon take place...

sebster wrote:

happydude wrote:Really? How much money was spent on military funding afterward? Security? How many soldiers paid the ultimate price because of those actions with the military campaigns that ensued?

There's been about 1,200 US deaths, and spent around $400 billion. Which sucks for those soldiers and their families, and it'd be nice to have $400 billion less on the deficit, but in terms of "bringing a nation to its knees" the claim makes no sense.

But what has Osama achieved? What one thing that he might want has actually happened? What goals had he so amazingly achieved that he might demand respect?

9/11 really screwed up the judgement of Bush/Cheney. The bad post 9/11 judgement within the Bush administration combined with the political capitol gained by the 9/11 attacks were the 2 main reasons why the Iraq war actually became a war. Without 9/11 there would be no Iraq war. I'm not saying Hussein had anything to do with 9/11, because he didn't and Hussein was actually an enemy of Al Qaeda. What I'm saying is without 9/11 the Bush administration would never have had the political capitol or motivation to actually make the Iraq war a reality. The goal of terrorism is often to goad a nation into doing something stupid, and in the case of 9/11 it was an astounding success because we did make a stupid mistake after 9/11 by invading Iraq.

That being said the real cost of both the Iraq and Afghanistan war is far more than $400 billion and 1,200 lives. Add on top of that another mistake by the Bush administration was the sub prime bubble which in the short term injected a lot of money into the American economy. Much of the sub prime bubble was used to counteract the post 9/11 recession and turn it into an economic boom even while we were fighting 2 wars. If we were not entrenched in 2 very expensive wars 1 of which was becoming unpopular during the 2004 election Bush probably would not have milked the sub prime bubble for all it's worth, but he kind of had to milk the sup prime bubble for all it's worth to stimulate the economy to win a 2nd term because the combination of the Iraq war and a down economy would have lost him the election.

Almost all of Bush's bad decisions go against the principles Bush had in his 2000 election, and were a direct or indirect result of 9/11. The goal of terrorism is often to goad a nation into doing something stupid, and in the case of 9/11 it was an astounding success

Not to say I disagree with most of that, except the central thesis:

Do we have good reason to believe that the specific goal of the 9/11 attacks was to goad us into doing something generically stupid, or invade Afghanistan and Iraq specifically?

I would rather doubt that they actually wanted us to invade Afghanistan and get rid of their nice convenient training camps.

Mannahnin wrote:Not to say I disagree with most of that, except the central thesis:

Do we have good reason to believe that the specific goal of the 9/11 attacks was to goad us into doing something generically stupid, or invade Afghanistan and Iraq specifically?

I would rather doubt that they actually wanted us to invade Afghanistan and get rid of their nice convenient training camps.

I think to some extent, we responded in exactly the way they thought or hoped we would. But they (vastly) miscalculated the magnitude with which we would respond.

Mannahnin wrote:Sir P- Fair enough.

Happydude- If you follow up a post wishing Bin Laden to "Rest in Peace" with posts defending Hitler, there is a high likelihood that the moderators will decide that you're just trolling. This is a warning. Please choose your words with care, and exercise good taste to the best of your ability, at least when we are talking about mass-murderers, expecially ones whose organizations have murdered people that some of us personally knew.

I apologized already. this was hardly necessary.

Good riddance.

Back at the end of last year they caught on that one of the men working in the post office of the town where Osama was staying was leading a Saudi terrorist suspect around.
The CIA tailed him and one of the Bali bombing masterminds was caught in Jan 11.
That Osama would stick around when his minions were getting picked up shows tremendous stupidity or a great hope that he was too clever by half.

I'm glad the Bugger got slotted, but a few things.

Obama didn't kill him, some brave servicemen did, the death of one guy will make feth all difference to the situation in Ganners and the whooping and hollering is childish considering all the death in the last 12 years.

And parts of the presidents speech made me cringe.

Other than that, a scumbag is dead, whippee doo.

The dead are still dead, AQ are still kicking, and Islam is still inherently offensive to anyone with any regard for truth and equality.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Good riddance.

Back at the end of last year they caught on that one of the men working in the post office of the town where Osama was staying was leading a Saudi terrorist suspect around.
The CIA tailed him and one of the Bali bombing masterminds was caught in Jan 11.
That Osama would stick around when his minions were getting picked up shows tremendous stupidity or a great hope that he was too clever by half.

He was confident in his precautions and thought he'd be safe.

He underestimated.....
AMERICA!!! YEA!!!!

Lusall wrote:It's not in my nature to celebrate the death of anyone, not even someone as evil as Osama. But I shall neither mourn nor regret his passing. In the days to come, we will all argue and discuss the repercussions of this monumental event. Until then, let's all raise a glass to our soldiers and veterans who, through their blood, sweat, and tears have made this possible. Closure has been brought to many people, including myself. September 11th, 2001/May 1st, 2011: Never forget.

You have hit the nail on the head.Im in complete agreement and believe your post to be one of the most sensible yet posted in this thread.

mattyrm wrote:I'm glad the Bugger got slotted, but a few things.

Obama didn't kill him, some brave servicemen did, the death of one guy will make feth all difference to the situation in Ganners and the whooping and hollering is childish considering all the death in the last 12 years.

And parts of the presidents speech made me cringe.

Other than that, a scumbag is dead, whippee doo.

The dead are still dead, AQ are still kicking, and Islam is still inherently offensive to anyone with any regard for truth and equality.

Entirely agree with you. The cheering American crowds in the news footage didn't half remind me of the cheering crowds burning American flags/etc in the Middle East...

SilverMK2 wrote:

mattyrm wrote:I'm glad the Bugger got slotted, but a few things.

Obama didn't kill him, some brave servicemen did, the death of one guy will make feth all difference to the situation in Ganners and the whooping and hollering is childish considering all the death in the last 12 years.

And parts of the presidents speech made me cringe.

Other than that, a scumbag is dead, whippee doo.

The dead are still dead, AQ are still kicking, and Islam is still inherently offensive to anyone with any regard for truth and equality.

Entirely agree with you. The cheering American crowds in the news footage didn't half remind me of the cheering crowds burning American flags/etc in the Middle East...

Other than the whole hating an evil person versus slandering the symbol of an entire nation thing right?

lucasbuffalo wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:

mattyrm wrote:I'm glad the Bugger got slotted, but a few things.

Obama didn't kill him, some brave servicemen did, the death of one guy will make feth all difference to the situation in Ganners and the whooping and hollering is childish considering all the death in the last 12 years.

And parts of the presidents speech made me cringe.

Other than that, a scumbag is dead, whippee doo.

The dead are still dead, AQ are still kicking, and Islam is still inherently offensive to anyone with any regard for truth and equality.

Entirely agree with you. The cheering American crowds in the news footage didn't half remind me of the cheering crowds burning American flags/etc in the Middle East...

Other than the whole hating an evil person versus slandering the symbol of an entire nation thing right?

And yet I am the one getting rules violation warnings...