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Sidstyler wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:DA's also have a very distinct lack of options across their IC's and sergeants with the latter being limited to just power toy/fist + plasma pistol. (no storm bolters or combi-weapons for the original legion ) The only things you could honestly claim to be 'better' in a DA army are the specialist 'wings' and the company vets who can now mix & match into a psudo sternguard/vanguard combination. (but without the specialist bolter rounds or 'heroic intervention/jump pack options)

This stuff mostly just proves that I was right, though, that GW purposely designed DA so that the only viable ways to run a DA army are with one of the "wings", and that the intent isn't to turn the various SM codices into "C:SM+". Because like I said, if Dark Angels got everything Codex Marines got, and got the stuff that made DA unique, what reason would you ever have to run a vanilla Marine army using the vanilla codex? Space Wolves and Blood Angels aren't just "C:SM+", and I don't expect them to make BT or DA any different when it's their turn.

And I'd also like to point out that Tau still have an armoury in their codex, so BT aren't exactly unique in that regard, either.

*sigh*

DA's were done by Jervis to a new design model that sucked and was abandoned after just 3 codicies because the player base rebelled against it so vocally. Note that Codex: Eldar, Codex: Dark Angels & Codex: Spiky Marines did not add a single new unit to those armies, while the Codex: Orks (the first book of the current design model), only added minor things like the shokk attack gun back into the mix.
All three of those armies got the shaft by GW and even Jervis admits that in hindsight, it was a silly idea to over simplify to that level. All three of those books should honestly be within the next slew of 4-5 books so that those players can finally get some of the love that other armies have been showered with.

Codex: Space Marines came out well after DA's so things like the ironclad & redeemer didn't exist yet.
When DA's get re-done you'll see them get the redeemer and perhaps 1 or 2 other newer codex options. (the thunderfire cannon would go well since DA's are supposed to be the stubborn shooty chapter) They'll also get a new non-codex option or three to help differentiate them as well.

I'm really hoping that GW does the following in all honesty;
- Templars then Tau. Get rid of those damn armouries and bring these poor guys into the new edition since they've been unloved for so long!

- Eldar (bring back some of the old school stuff and add some options to the book, plus the night spinner so you don't have to carry around lose photocopies of rules!)

- Chaos Marines/Legions (if these guys are going to be 'the big threat' in 6th ed, treat them like it and give them a proper fething book, not the pile of blandhammer we currently have!)

- Dark Angels (poor, poor DA's... Always the neglected space marines because you wear bath robes and like to cry in the corner! )

A cogent post. Inconceivable!

Agree with your points, Stitch.

What was the old design model like?

DoctorZombie wrote:What was the old design model like?

Take a current codex marine tactical squad entry, remove all sergeant options beyond power toy/fist + plasma pistol. Also only allow additional marines to be bought as a 5-man package deal and no 'freebie' upgrades. Basically, make the squad cost about 10-20pts more than what codex marines pay for the same thing!
Oh, and remove scouts as a Troops choice and put them in Elites instead! (but DA scouts are the same BS as all other marines!)

By the time you get to assault squads, you don't even want to know how the points differ it's that bad!

Templars by virtue of their age suffer a similar problem with their specialist units as their assault & bike squads tend to cost more pts than other marines pay.



Hopefully the rumors are true'ish and we get Templars within the first half of the year so that the army gets some viability and flavour injected back into it!

And while I'm really hoping against mounted 'knights', I'd like to see GW give Templars their own version of a dreadknight just to see what a mk2 'improved' look can do for the baby harness! (worst model of 2011 imho is the dreadknight... It's just so silly looking!)

Experiment 626 wrote:*sigh*

My feelings exactly...

Experiment 626 wrote:DA's were done by Jervis to a new design model that sucked and was abandoned after just 3 codicies because the player base rebelled against it so vocally. Note that Codex: Eldar, Codex: Dark Angels & Codex: Spiky Marines did not add a single new unit to those armies, while the Codex: Orks (the first book of the current design model), only added minor things like the shokk attack gun back into the mix.
All three of those armies got the shaft by GW and even Jervis admits that in hindsight, it was a silly idea to over simplify to that level. All three of those books should honestly be within the next slew of 4-5 books so that those players can finally get some of the love that other armies have been showered with.

Thanks for the history lesson, but I already know all of this full well, since I joined the hobby (and the online community) not long before Dark Angels were released and even participated in a few arguments about this new design philosophy myself. DA and CSM in particular were both kind of underwhelming (CSM moreso since DA at least had the "-wing" thing going for them), but begrudgingly accepted by most people because it was assumed at the time that this would be the new standard and every codex would get that treatment...then C:SM came out and pissed off everyone, even other Marine players as it was made official that their favorite chapter actually revered the Ultramarines and considered Roboute Guilliman (forgive my spelling) their "spiritual liege", and Calgar became the coolest guy in the galaxy who could strangle Avatars with his bare hands and doesn't afraid of anything. And that's before even getting into the rules.

Experiment 626 wrote:Codex: Space Marines came out well after DA's so things like the ironclad & redeemer didn't exist yet.

I never implied that DA had ironclads or redeemers. The only thing I'm disputing is the idea that DA will automatically get them just because they weren't around yet when they were updated, because neither BA nor SW got ironclads or thunderfire cannons, both are still unique to C:SM despite the fact that they came out after. Because like I said, in my opinion anyway, it seems GW want to keep every codex unique and with its own style of play, and not just doing a copy+paste job of C:SM and adding stuff to that.

Experiment 626 wrote:When DA's get re-done you'll see them get the redeemer and perhaps 1 or 2 other newer codex options. (the thunderfire cannon would go well since DA's are supposed to be the stubborn shooty chapter) They'll also get a new non-codex option or three to help differentiate them as well.

They'll probably get the LR redeemer, I'll give you that, but you're making a big assumption in thinking that your codex is going to get the same units that two other Marine variants were each passed on already. Where are the BA or SW ironclads and thunderfire cannons? Just because you think it would fit doesn't mean you'll get it...BA players thought cheap thundershield termies would fit pretty well in their assault-themed codex, too, but people tried to run them like that and it didn't really work as well, because GW came up with new units for BA players that they wanted them to run instead.

Therefore I think it's more reasonable to expect DA to not get thunderfire cannons, but a new unit entirely that fits their "stubborn, shooty" nature, and might even end up being better for them than a thunderfire cannon would have been. The new DA codex will probably have its focus stay on the "-wing" variants and more shooty units, I'm not arguing about that, I'm just saying that every Marine codex is going to have its own style of play, and if you expect DA to be a "better" version of C:SM you're probably wrong, because GW has proven so far that not everyone is going to get what C:SM gets. C:SM having it in their book doesn't mean you're guaranteed to get it in yours.

Does anyone understand what it is I'm trying to say now? I'm trying to explain what I'm thinking but it's apparently still not coming out all that clear. I'm not saying DA aren't going to get new stuff when they get redone, I fully expect them to get the same treatment the other chapters got. All I was trying to say is that DA players who didn't want to run a "-wing" army were better off running C:SM, like you said, and that it would probably continue to be true even after they get updated. I wasn't trying to imply that GW actually planned that far ahead and designed DA to be more expensive in comparison to C:SM on purpose, just that a vanilla Marine army would probably still work better with C:SM than an updated DA book.

The same thing is true now for BA players that want to run a more "vanilla" army and aren't interested in taking any of the units that make them different. If you're not going to spam assault squads and take stuff like Death Company or Baal preds etc., you're probably better off running with C:SM instead. I think some BA players learned that already when they tried to run terminators like C:SM does, there are just better things in the BA book.

I've bought myself an Emperor's champion together with the codex not so long ago.

They really are awesome stuff already, they aren't bad are they? In my eyes, the only reason why they should get a new dex is because their named character's are crap xD total crap. Still still, I like the codex now, we have like the holy hand gre.. I mean Holy orb of Antioch!

Haven't read the entire discussion :p seems like alot I still need to learn :p

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think you missed the part where the, fluff-wise, most assaulty Space Marine Chapter is forced to run a gunline to be competitive,.

Yah I know. It's not like the best Blood Angle lists are gun line or anything- oh. wait.....

I think it's safe to say the fluff of the army shouldn't really have that much of a bearing on if it should be updated. Because as seen sometimes GW doesn't even update the codexs to even play that way their fluff says they should.


As to the rest of your post. That dosen't make what I said irrelevant. Black Templars and Dark angles HAVE been treated better then many other codexes who were of similar age, or EVEN OLDER. The older SM books have gotten erratas that do try to level the playing field for them. That isn't a bad thing, I would love to see GW do that more often. The problem is GW has never realy done that for the xenos... Agien that's better then how any xeno book that old has ever been treated.

O.o

Not really saying one way or the other that they "should" or "shouldn't" be updated. More that if your a loyalist SM, GW usely has your interests at heart before alot of other armies.

RutgerMan wrote:I've bought myself an Emperor's champion together with the codex not so long ago.

They really are awesome stuff already, they aren't bad are they? In my eyes, the only reason why they should get a new dex is because their named character's are crap xD total crap. Still still, I like the codex now, we have like the holy hand gre.. I mean Holy orb of Antioch!

Haven't read the entire discussion :p seems like alot I still need to learn :p

They have ups and down on both sides. To kit a Initiate out up to par with a current Marine (frag/krak nades) adds an extra 3 points onto them, which adds up once you have a few Crusader Squads, and Frag Grenades are something an assault army needs. A lot of things that every Marine army uses just costs more, an extra 15 points per Rhinos and 30 points per Razorback, before you buy things that come standard in newer marine books can be annoying. Drop Pods are the same, but with no "drop pod assault" rule they could be sitting off-board until turn 6. That's just the Troops and transports sections.

This can be balanced out by other things that have gotten cheaper or benefits from 5th ED like Preferred Enemy changing. Plasma weapons are cheap as chips unlike the Meltas which cost double, ect.

- Dark Angels (poor, poor DA's... Always the neglected space marines because you wear bath robes and like to cry in the corner! )

That's what you get for going to the dark side, suckas!

Lockark wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think you missed the part where the, fluff-wise, most assaulty Space Marine Chapter is forced to run a gunline to be competitive,.

Yah I know. It's not like the best Blood Angle lists are gun line or anything- oh. wait.....

There's a difference between having the best lists be gunline (which I'd argue they're not, what with fast Baal Predators, Razorbacks and Assault Marines rushing up the field) and having the only viable list be a gunline.

Lockark wrote:
As to the rest of your post. That dosen't make what I said irrelevant. Black Templars and Dark angles HAVE been treated better then many other codexes who were of similar age, or EVEN OLDER. The older SM books have gotten erratas that do try to level the playing field for them. That isn't a bad thing, I would love to see GW do that more often. The problem is GW has never realy done that for the xenos... Agien that's better then how any xeno book that old has ever been treated.

It is also better than any Marine Codex has been treated earlier. The thing is, it's really only doable with loyalist codices that have fallen behind. All they had to do was copypaste the rules for wargear from C:SM and add 5 points to the cost of Storm Shields. While I'm on your side in this issue and think that they should do this to EVERY army, it's way more complicated to do for those who aren't Spess Mehrens.

Mirbeau over at Warseer wrote:A little update - I still think (though not sure if others are 100% on this) Templars are the next book, but there are some miniatures for others to come first....

Roll up, roll up for the Magical Mystery Codex, step right this way!


Roll up - roll up for the Mystery Codex
Roll up - roll up for the Mystery Codex

Roll up
That's an invitation
Roll up for the Mystery Codex
Roll up
to make a pre-order
Roll up for the Mystery Codex

The Magical Mystery Codex
is waiting to take your wallet away
waiting to take your wallet away

if its not worth it don't buy it, if you got the money drop it. quit complaining. actions speak louder than words

tkrettler91 wrote:if its not worth it don't buy it, if you got the money drop it. quit complaining. actions speak louder than words

I was referring to GW's habit of not revealing a codex until the last min, so no one knows if it's any good. Which is bad if, for example, you intend to buy it right away because you play that army...

And, frankly, doing it in that manner is much more fun than, say, grousing about it in a moaning, whiny manner. Cue the Musical Number.

BaronIveagh wrote:

tkrettler91 wrote:if its not worth it don't buy it, if you got the money drop it. quit complaining. actions speak louder than words

I was referring to GW's habit of not revealing a codex until the last min, so no one knows if it's any good. Which is bad if, for example, you intend to buy it right away because you play that army...

And, frankly, doing it in that manner is much more fun than, say, grousing about it in a moaning, whiny manner. Cue the Musical Number.

But if you play that army you're going to buy the codex anyway (and pray that it doesn't suck) since you've already sunk your fortune into building that army.

Smegmalicious wrote:
But if you play that army you're going to buy the codex anyway (and pray that it doesn't suck) since you've already sunk your fortune into building that army.

Nah, just do what I do: retire that army and use one of your other ones until the next edition or wait for a FAQ to buff it. (However, my 'crons are on hiatus due to Ward, but We'll Be Back as soon as he's not the writer)

BaronIveagh wrote:

Smegmalicious wrote:
But if you play that army you're going to buy the codex anyway (and pray that it doesn't suck) since you've already sunk your fortune into building that army.

Nah, just do what I do: retire that army and use one of your other ones until the next edition or wait for a FAQ to buff it. (However, my 'crons are on hiatus due to Ward, but We'll Be Back as soon as he's not the writer)

My plan would be to make them Fallen Templars if the book truly sucks.

BaronIveagh wrote:(However, my 'crons are on hiatus due to Ward, but We'll Be Back as soon as he's not the writer)

Wait, what? Are you implying that the new Necron codex is not a million times better than the old one in both rules and fluff?

The idea of this dreadknight-esque siege weapon interests me.

Walking Vindicator?

ph34r wrote:Wait, what? Are you implying that the new Necron codex is not a million times better than the old one in both rules and fluff?

Only in the sense that being torn apart in the slow time of a black hole while forced to relive the worst moments of your life is a million times better than having sex with twin super models on top your millions of dollars in lottery winnings while smoking a Cuban cigar and downing shots of Irish whiskey.

Wait, what?

Ozymandias wrote:Wait, what?

Yah that metaphor confused me also. I don't get how the new codex is "a black whole the forces you to relive the worst moments of your life".
O.o

I'm no fan of ward, by I do actually really like the new cron fluff more. I realy like the parts about the cron's looking for new bodies, reminds me of the "great race" from the lovecraft mythos. I also dug the crazy/eccentric Necron royalty and the shenanigans of going insane after the eons of slumber. Alot of fun story ideas in that.

well i just started templars and bought a venerable and land raider crusader so it better work out. i hope they get a flyer though i will be disappointed if they don't.

Only in the sense that being torn apart in the slow time of a black hole while forced to relive the worst moments of your life is a million times better than having sex with twin super models on top your millions of dollars in lottery winnings while smoking a Cuban cigar and downing shots of Irish whiskey.

wow, tad dramatic dontcha think? also Irish whisky is generally spelled with a "y", the "ey" is an American thing.

We can't really judge the new BT codex until we see some leaks- or teasers,neither of which are forthcoming as of now.

The new Necron codex is well done. From the fluff to the units to the war gear and rules.

Anyone that pines over the old necrons should really just walk away from the game. You're not someone I want to play or even listen to.

And shave your neckbeard.

kronk wrote:The new Necron codex is well done copy paste from WHFB. From the fluff to the units to the war gear and rules, Ward does not have a single original idea.

Fixed. But we're getting OT.


BTW: on the whiskey thing, my spellchecker is made in the US, so if I spell it 'y' it freaks out.

I started with BT, late in 4th ed, switched to C:SM after 5th came out. I love BTs fluff and the Imperial Fist legion, but that is somewhat besides the point.

As far as the new codex is concerned, they need an update before 6th, be it a full codex or a WD dex, just as long as BT keep re-roll to-hit and fearless in the assault and not get RAGE I will be fine and dandy.

I like the idea of getting termy troops, but as of this point it is getting kinda old (with SW, GK, and DA).

As far as seeing the 5 for the cost of 10 man boxes; I think if GW did that they would be making a mistake. GW already has a 10 for the cost of 10 man box with SW, and if they are going hordey it is almost needed.

I can't let you say that about Whisky / Whiskey.
The whiskey is of Irish ascendance whereas Whisky is of scottish. You may find some whiskY in Ireland where the company holders where from Great Britain.
In american laws, its "whisky" which appears in the Standards of Identity for Distilled Spirits document. Probably the writer was of scot parentage.
Not adding much to the rumors am i ?

BaronIveagh wrote:

ph34r wrote:Wait, what? Are you implying that the new Necron codex is not a million times better than the old one in both rules and fluff?

Only in the sense that being torn apart in the slow time of a black hole while forced to relive the worst moments of your life is a million times better than having sex with twin super models on top your millions of dollars in lottery winnings while smoking a Cuban cigar and downing shots of Irish whiskey.

Haha. Wait... you, you actually liked the old one more?

....

HAHAHA---


Oh wait,

BaronIveagh wrote:Joined: 2009/05/29

The necron travesty was before your time. All is revealed! Enjoy your anti-ward bandwagon! Never mind that the worst crimes in 40k writing history were committed in 3rd and 4th edition: Necron fluff in 3e, Eldar and Tyranids in 4th edition, the atrocities that are the Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marine codexes...

BaronIveagh wrote:Fixed. But we're getting OT.

You're right. But just for fun, some time you should check out any random thread about Necron fluff from when the codex first came out. You will realize how completely awful the background "C'tan did EVERYTHING" was considered, and still is by most.

Yeah, there are a lot of things I can never forgive GW for, and that's one of them. Necrons went from being a complete mystery to having everything about their origins explained in great detail, and then some. They created a new batch of gods and made them responsible for just about every bad thing in the universe, and put one of them on Mars, so if that thing ever wakes up then Earth is gone just like that. Which in my opinion is a tad worse than "Tyranids will eventually devour the entire galaxy!", because at least you can attribute that to being an exaggeration. You can't exaggerate a powerful star-eating god of death sleeping in Earth's back yard.