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Roguejm11 wrote:My first army 2 years ago was Black Templar, I have seen plenty of changes to them even with really starting the game with 5th edition. The lastest FAQ was the best thing that could have happened to them. But I feel the glory days are soon to be over.

Stuff we lose:
I see vows being redone and sucking.
I see preferred enemy flat out disappearing.
I see Rage causing more problems than helping.
I see the "hordes" mentality failing miserably.
I see Blessed Hull going away completely.
I see the usefulness of Typhoons going right out the window.
I see Power of the Machine Spirit being taken away from Predators and Vindicators.
I see the best terminators in the game going to crap. (Taking away Furious Charge and Peferred Enemy)
There are prolly more of these but don't feel like writing them all out.

Stuff we gain:
Sure they might give us the ablity to swap out more then 1-2 weapons with Crusader squads.
Rhinos might not cost 58 points.
Sword Bretheran can actually be "useful"
We gain, 1 special character.

All of the unique things about the Black Templar they already have. We have units that cost more than others, we have units that cost less than others.

If the "horde" mentality comes though for this Codex, you will see a pro painted 3000 points of Black Templar up on Ebay.

The pessimism is strong in this one. Knows the entire Codex already, she does. Waiting for threads like these to pop up, I cannot.


*Ahem*

The Black Templars do need a new Codex, though its kind of strange that a second founding gets a Codex and not the Imperial Fists? Not to rock the boat or anything, but does anyone know why?

Because the imp fits are a codex chapter...they are basically smurfs in yellow armour...or so I believe :/

Ozymandias wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:DA won't get rolled into the Marine Codex due to legacy issues. That's the only reason.

Honestly if the 6th ed Marine dex gave me a way to accurately portray DW and RW then I wouldn't care if they got rolled into the same book. It would clean up the release cycle (one less dex to worry about) and make it so that one doesn't get nerfed while the other gets stronger every few years.

I think I may need to revoke your Green Marine card.

KplKeegan wrote:
The Black Templars do need a new Codex, though its kind of strange that a second founding gets a Codex and not the Imperial Fists? Not to rock the boat or anything, but does anyone know why?

After the incident with the Iron Cage, and the rebuilding of the Imperial Fists, Rogal Dorn came to embrace the Codex Astartes and set out to make his Legion (chapter by that point) another shining example of it's effectiveness. Black Templars became a crusading Chapter, quite different from what the Fists became.

Many armies were involved in the same crusades and are structured under the codex astartes, just because they crusade doesn't mean they have to be structured differently.

A tad off topic but it annoyed me in C:SM that the second founding Crimson Fists got a character and option and the Iron Hands were the only first founding to be ignored.... I thought this was very strange.

At the risk of being berated I hope they get a drastic change to their structure, one fitting a separate codex or I really don't see they point in making another assault army with LR's as dedicated transports and storm ravens... essentially Blood Angels 2.0 with a knightly sub theme....

Red Corsair wrote:
At the risk of being berated I hope they get a drastic change to their structure, one fitting a separate codex or I really don't see they point in making another assault army with LR's as dedicated transports and storm ravens... essentially Blood Angels 2.0 with a knightly sub theme....

Not going to berate you, but I think it'd be the other way around, with Blood Angels being Black Templar 2.0, at least as far as the LR dedicated transports go. Black Templars had them for their basic squads first.

KplKeegan wrote:

The Black Templars do need a new Codex, though its kind of strange that a second founding gets a Codex and not the Imperial Fists? Not to rock the boat or anything, but does anyone know why?

Its simple really. Black Templars scheme is simple; black primer and a touch of white...easy. That and the fact that BT's had awesome rules when they got their fist army list. Instead of falling backward when taking casualties they fell forwards into combat. The Emperor's Champion had a sword that could count as a power fist when you wanted it too. It was awesome. The army list, simple paint scheme and the exposure they got from being on the cover of the 3rd edition box set; made Templars very popular. GW rightly capitalized of the army's popularity. I doubt their being 2nd founding rather than one of the original legions has ever be a factor to anyone but fans.

Sersi wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

The Black Templars do need a new Codex, though its kind of strange that a second founding gets a Codex and not the Imperial Fists? Not to rock the boat or anything, but does anyone know why?

Its simple really. Black Templars scheme is simple; black primer and a touch of white...easy. That and the fact that BT's had awesome rules when they got their fist army list. Instead of falling backward when taking casualties they fell forwards into combat. The Emperor's Champion had a sword that could count as a power fist when you wanted it too. It was awesome. The army list, simple paint scheme and the exposure they got from being on the cover of the 3rd edition box set; made Templars very popular. GW rightly capitalized of the army's popularity. I doubt their being 2nd founding rather than one of the original legions has ever be a factor to anyone but fans.

This is true, but you have to admit the whole BT shtick in the background (constant crusade, unorthodox structure, knightly fanatacism) is fairly different and bloody cool. To everyone saying that they are not a first founding chapter: that is a completely arbitrary distinction to make. Iron Hands and Imperial Fists are both cool, I was also surprised that Iron Hands particularly weren't mentioned in the SM codex. But there shouldn't be a rule that the 9 original chapters must get the most love. The importance of history and bygone glory is a big trope in fantasy, but it is possible for a younger organisation to grow out of its parent's shadow. Especially after 10,000 years.

ghost21 wrote:Relic dreadnoughts, like a mobile requiary bearer... is what I had heard

If you really think about it, the legacy of the Imperial Fists is one of the most fleshed out of all the First Founding. Two of their 2nd founding chapters are highly involved in the 40k game universe with Crimson Fists and Black Templars both getting significant attention through their places in Codex: Space Marines, and their own codex. And the later retconned to be a 2nd founding chapter the Soul Drinkers having a successful Black Library run.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

Sersi wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

The Black Templars do need a new Codex, though its kind of strange that a second founding gets a Codex and not the Imperial Fists? Not to rock the boat or anything, but does anyone know why?

Its simple really. Black Templars scheme is simple; black primer and a touch of white...easy. That and the fact that BT's had awesome rules when they got their fist army list. Instead of falling backward when taking casualties they fell forwards into combat. The Emperor's Champion had a sword that could count as a power fist when you wanted it too. It was awesome. The army list, simple paint scheme and the exposure they got from being on the cover of the 3rd edition box set; made Templars very popular. GW rightly capitalized of the army's popularity. I doubt their being 2nd founding rather than one of the original legions has ever be a factor to anyone but fans.

This is true, but you have to admit the whole BT shtick in the background (constant crusade, unorthodox structure, knightly fanatacism) is fairly different and bloody cool. To everyone saying that they are not a first founding chapter: that is a completely arbitrary distinction to make. Iron Hands and Imperial Fists are both cool, I was also surprised that Iron Hands particularly weren't mentioned in the SM codex. But there shouldn't be a rule that the 9 original chapters must get the most love. The importance of history and bygone glory is a big trope in fantasy, but it is possible for a younger organisation to grow out of its parent's shadow. Especially after 10,000 years.

Especially when said organisation is in fact as old as the "parent". The original Black Templars were Imperial Fists that fought during the Heresy too, remember? Thus, the glories of the Heresy won by the Imperial Fists belong every bit as much to the Templars, Crimson Fists and any other unknown Second Founding Chapter of Dorn's geneseed as it does to the Imperial Fists themselves.

derek wrote:If you really think about it, the legacy of the Imperial Fists is one of the most fleshed out of all the First Founding. Two of their 2nd founding chapters are highly involved in the 40k game universe with Crimson Fists and Black Templars both getting significant attention through their places in Codex: Space Marines, and their own codex. And the later retconned to be a 2nd founding chapter the Soul Drinkers having a successful Black Library run.

IIRC in Phalanx the Souldrinkers were re-retconned again to not being Fists decedents.

And, yes, it's sad, but the Fists are now so Codex that at times i have a hard time not yelling 'Ultramar!' when I want to be saying 'FOR DORN!'

Ironically except in space. The fists seem to be still non-codex in what ships they have access to compared to the Ultramarines.

Some other bits from elsewhere on the internet (Librarium Online)

i was down the local GW today, and found some interesting stuff on black templars. so far as the internet says, they're before/after chaos space marines (or legions), before or very shortly after 6th, given that they're current incarnation won't be suitable for 6th. Anyways, what i found out was the following:

there's going to be a named emperors champion, who's old by BT standards, and has been EC for a while. long enough to be better than the standard one.

initiates will be cheaper, around 11 points, and neotyphes around 6pts. still, expect some drawbacks to this.

there'll be a new named character on a bike with eternal warrior, and also eternal warrior killer.

and possibly some dreadnought/knight style thing that fits with the rest of the army, in line with the big stuff from GK and BA.

oh, last thing, possibly some upgrade that lets land raiders be destroyed by the enemy, but still 'live' for a turn. final shoot and move, the explode in a last ditch suicide run or someut.

I got most of this from a staff member, so take it with a pinch of salt, but this guy's usually pretty accurate with stuff like this....

still, something to think about, isn't it?

He may or may not be part of the internal playtest ring GW use to try out different ideas and get feedback or know someone who is. This information is by no means set in stone.
The cheaper scouts is because they lose the Infiltrate, Scout and Move Through Cover USRs and are essentially just Marines with a 4+ armour save. The main drawback is Rage.

BaronIveagh wrote:

derek wrote:If you really think about it, the legacy of the Imperial Fists is one of the most fleshed out of all the First Founding. Two of their 2nd founding chapters are highly involved in the 40k game universe with Crimson Fists and Black Templars both getting significant attention through their places in Codex: Space Marines, and their own codex. And the later retconned to be a 2nd founding chapter the Soul Drinkers having a successful Black Library run.

IIRC in Phalanx the Souldrinkers were re-retconned again to not being Fists decedents.

Possibly, haven't read it yet. Or it could be the Fists trying to disown them.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:
This is true, but you have to admit the whole BT shtick in the background (constant crusade, unorthodox structure, knightly fanatacism) is fairly different and bloody cool. To everyone saying that they are not a first founding chapter: that is a completely arbitrary distinction to make. Iron Hands and Imperial Fists are both cool, I was also surprised that Iron Hands particularly weren't mentioned in the SM codex. But there shouldn't be a rule that the 9 original chapters must get the most love. The importance of history and bygone glory is a big trope in fantasy, but it is possible for a younger organisation to grow out of its parent's shadow. Especially after 10,000 years.

It's probably also worth mentioning that the "first founding legions" stuff came several years after RT and was a little arbitary at best. Of the original Chapters featured in RT, we had Crimson Fists but the Imperial Fists did not exist at all. Nowadays these newcomers, these Johnny-come-latelys, the Imperial Fists get all the attention and coverage..

Fxeni wrote:Some other bits from elsewhere on the internet (Librarium Online)

i was down the local GW today, and found some interesting stuff on black templars. so far as the internet says, they're before/after chaos space marines (or legions), before or very shortly after 6th, given that they're current incarnation won't be suitable for 6th. Anyways, what i found out was the following:

there's going to be a named emperors champion, who's old by BT standards, and has been EC for a while. long enough to be better than the standard one.

initiates will be cheaper, around 11 points, and neotyphes around 6pts. still, expect some drawbacks to this.

there'll be a new named character on a bike with eternal warrior, and also eternal warrior killer.

and possibly some dreadnought/knight style thing that fits with the rest of the army, in line with the big stuff from GK and BA.

oh, last thing, possibly some upgrade that lets land raiders be destroyed by the enemy, but still 'live' for a turn. final shoot and move, the explode in a last ditch suicide run or someut.

I got most of this from a staff member, so take it with a pinch of salt, but this guy's usually pretty accurate with stuff like this....

still, something to think about, isn't it?

He may or may not be part of the internal playtest ring GW use to try out different ideas and get feedback or know someone who is. This information is by no means set in stone.
The cheaper scouts is because they lose the Infiltrate, Scout and Move Through Cover USRs and are essentially just Marines with a 4+ armour save. The main drawback is Rage.

I wouldn't believe any of this personally as an 11 point marine would be just [rooster] to the wall bonkers, and Neophytes don't get Scout-Infilitrate-MTC now as they are an upgrade to a regular initiate squad and they still cost 10 points each.

zeshin wrote:

Fxeni wrote:Some other bits from elsewhere on the internet (Librarium Online)

i was down the local GW today, and found some interesting stuff on black templars. so far as the internet says, they're before/after chaos space marines (or legions), before or very shortly after 6th, given that they're current incarnation won't be suitable for 6th. Anyways, what i found out was the following:

there's going to be a named emperors champion, who's old by BT standards, and has been EC for a while. long enough to be better than the standard one.

initiates will be cheaper, around 11 points, and neotyphes around 6pts. still, expect some drawbacks to this.

there'll be a new named character on a bike with eternal warrior, and also eternal warrior killer.

and possibly some dreadnought/knight style thing that fits with the rest of the army, in line with the big stuff from GK and BA.

oh, last thing, possibly some upgrade that lets land raiders be destroyed by the enemy, but still 'live' for a turn. final shoot and move, the explode in a last ditch suicide run or someut.

I got most of this from a staff member, so take it with a pinch of salt, but this guy's usually pretty accurate with stuff like this....

still, something to think about, isn't it?

He may or may not be part of the internal playtest ring GW use to try out different ideas and get feedback or know someone who is. This information is by no means set in stone.
The cheaper scouts is because they lose the Infiltrate, Scout and Move Through Cover USRs and are essentially just Marines with a 4+ armour save. The main drawback is Rage.

I wouldn't believe any of this personally as an 11 point marine would be just [rooster] to the wall bonkers, and Neophytes don't get Scout-Infilitrate-MTC now as they are an upgrade to a regular initiate squad and they still cost 10 points each.

There'd obviously be some sort of drawback to 11-point marines. It'd also give the Templars the horde mentality present in the fluff.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:There'd obviously be some sort of drawback to 11-point marines. It'd also give the Templars the horde mentality present in the fluff.

Unfortunately I think the drawback would be not actually being marines as their stats would be closer to Tau with a higher WS and I. Also I believe a 15 man squad mobbing out of a LR backed up by a 20+ foot squad with attached characters seems pretty darned horde'y for a marine army as it is.

initiates will be cheaper, around 11 points, and neotyphes around 6pts. still, expect some drawbacks to this.

Sorry, I don't buy this at all. 11 points for a 3+ armor save and 4's across the stat chart is way too cheap.

The draw back is needing to buy $600 worth of product just to field a 1000pt army.
Run the Warmachine points style and make games still average 1500pts.
That's GW's thinking behind making more money in the future.


And screw BT...reading the Tau stuff I want to see those models. I bought them when they first came out and sold them off...but I want single figs that are cool.

zeshin wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:There'd obviously be some sort of drawback to 11-point marines. It'd also give the Templars the horde mentality present in the fluff.

Unfortunately I think the drawback would be not actually being marines as their stats would be closer to Tau with a higher WS and I. Also I believe a 15 man squad mobbing out of a LR backed up by a 20+ foot squad with attached characters seems pretty darned horde'y for a marine army as it is.

Maybe it's just the current edition, but Blobs are pretty awful ATM.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

zeshin wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:There'd obviously be some sort of drawback to 11-point marines. It'd also give the Templars the horde mentality present in the fluff.

Unfortunately I think the drawback would be not actually being marines as their stats would be closer to Tau with a higher WS and I. Also I believe a 15 man squad mobbing out of a LR backed up by a 20+ foot squad with attached characters seems pretty darned horde'y for a marine army as it is.

Maybe it's just the current edition, but Blobs are pretty awful ATM.

Didn't say they were good, just horde'y.

zeshin wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

zeshin wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:There'd obviously be some sort of drawback to 11-point marines. It'd also give the Templars the horde mentality present in the fluff.

Unfortunately I think the drawback would be not actually being marines as their stats would be closer to Tau with a higher WS and I. Also I believe a 15 man squad mobbing out of a LR backed up by a 20+ foot squad with attached characters seems pretty darned horde'y for a marine army as it is.

Maybe it's just the current edition, but Blobs are pretty awful ATM.

Didn't say they were good, just horde'y.

My entire point was that a Templar horde currently is quite subpar and that cheaper marines and scouts with some special rules could go a long way towards making Black Tides dangerous again.

Glad to see some speculation about these guys. They were my first army, and it's been about six years since they last had an update.

Can't really decide how I feel about Phil Kelly writing the codex. It'll be a pretty powerful codex, if his track record with other codices says anything, but I worry about OP units making them a bandwagon army, much like how Space Wolves suddenly appeared everywhere.

Righteous Zeal = Rage? I hope there's a slightly more flavorful aspect to this rumor. Additional SCs will probably happen (most codices have 6-10 these days, it seems), looking forward to seeing how they handle Grimaldus, as he is one of my favorite personalities from the 40K universe.

@kronk: I agree, 11-point Initiates would be [edited] ridiculous [/edited]. It would make Grey Hunters look overpriced. If they keep them as horde infantry, they need to be cheap, but 11-points cheap would regularly see 120+ of them on the field in 1850pts games. Few armies could handle that much cowbell. Maybe they'll be like Blood Claws? That would be pretty interesting, but would make Neophytes redundant. Sword Brethren sound good, hope that "Parry" rule makes it into the final product.

Overall, I hope they keep with the horde infantry theme that they had in the 4th Edition Codex. All other MEQ armies seem to be elite jump/shooty infantry, Deathwing-esque, airborne, or mechanized these days. Here's to hoping that 6th Edition makes infantry-heavy lists have a competitive edge to them again without hitting armor with a nerf bat.

Any word on ETA? If it's the next codex, that would be FANTASTIC. I'd love to see these guys before my EAD.

[edited] Apparently Dakka has a politically correct message composer now? I typed out the correct spelling of a word, and it spat out "slowed". Interesting. [/edited]

Tau Fire Warriors are 10 points a piece. Ah, Space Marines.

Anyways. Agreed on the Zeal > Rage. At least a lil more taste to it would be nice.

If I ever do make the SM plunge it would be with an Emperor's Champion for sure. Those guys are awesome, and I hope they get treated appropriately.

Well isnt this nice, i buy the 4th Ed Codex last week to start making my BT because they just seemed cool fluff wise... and now I'm gonna have to buy a new codex!

But in all seriousness all these rumors sound cool but I hope they don't become the new SW..... When I was at the store I was torn between BT and SW as which codex to buy so I asked the owner what I should do, he said and I quote "Well that all depends. Do you want be one of the guys that get SW because there codex is broken as or do you want to get the BT and be a Space Knight?" I promptly returned the SW codex back to its shelf and walked out with the BT codex.

On a side note I went into the store a few days later and the owner was playing a game.... using SW

you can always return it

Yeah but I'm a collector at heart so I'll just put it on a shelf a feel good about myself for owning it ........

Most of these changes terrify me but I'll just be so happy to have a modern competitive codex with options that I will reserve judgement on it.

I don't see how anyone can complain about getting an upgrade since currently we have strong fluff telling us we are a hand to hand army and that is completely unplayable with the codex we have. That and we have about one competitive build currently...

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:[edited] Apparently Dakka has a politically correct message composer now? I typed out the correct spelling of a word, and it spat out "slowed". Interesting. [/edited]

Hmm... let me test it.

slowed.
slow.

[EDIT]: So that's the word they chose to replace it. Interesting choice, given that only a percentage of those people who are actually... that word... would actually be slow. In fact, that word has a lot of different meanings, not all related to mental stability or mental cognitive growth. It's quite sad that an overly touchy staff has changed a word with multiple meanings into a singular meaning. Personally I think it's more offensive to consider those people 'slow', as not all of them are.

Hmm... what about another test: flame-retardant suit. Ok, that worked. Perhaps I should put one on.