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terranarc wrote:Longfangs.

Care elaborating? I assume there's some rationale behind your comment.

DragonRider wrote:Hive Guard. They can take hits. They look awesome. They can't kill a thing.

Are you high? Hive Guard are the bane of anything with AV12 and below, they are a godsend for an army than desperately needs to be able to shoot transports to death before they can unload their cargo in your face.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Kain wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:The Forge World LRs, apparently, can leave much to be desired. The LRH, with a Whirlwind launcher up top instead of the heavy bolter, sounds nice... Except for two things. The launcher itself, according to some, can be easily countered by spacing, though I find it works well anyways. In addition, you've still got a transport capacity of 6 marines or three terminators... Which means if you want the most bang for your buck, you're gonna put something in there that fits the Helios... Basically, that means Devastators. The combination could be devastating... Except the LRH is expensive, many would say overly so, and the Devastators are VERY expensive. And that takes up two HS slots, a valuable commodity for Codex Marines.

I really wonder why the Land Raider Helios even has transport capacity. It's loadout clearly signifies a vehicle that is not meant to get even remotely close to the enemy. I'd personally think it'd be made better if they went the route of the Ares and the Terminus Ultra and stripped out the carrying capacity in favour of two heavy or one superheavy weapon. I'd personally say two (not twinlinked) autocannons would suit it nicely for some added long range dakka.

To me, the Helios was always begging for a five-six man Devastator squad, but... EGH! The LR is expensive, the Devs are expensive, both could be argued to be somewhat underwhelming, so you get a big ol' deathstar that has no guarentee of pulling its weight and takes up two HS slots. Granted, I may just be crazy enough to try that, but still. Blech.

Hm... Autocannons on a LR? Why not twin-linked, rifleman dreads have 'em... Still, I sense a homebrew in the mix...

Because two of one weapon is always better than a twinlinked version of that weapon. Unless you meant two twinlinked autocannons, which would be rather hilarious.

My 2 pence worth?

Guard is a tie between Medusa seige guns(there essentialy assault guns that are crappily armoured and open topped) and the Deathstrike-were out of an apocalypse game am i going to be able to feild it?

for space marines it has to be the tech preist. why waste valuble points and elites slots on one guy when i could be getting a dread instead?

master of ordinance wrote:for space marines it has to be the tech preist. why waste valuble points and elites slots on one guy when i could be getting a dread instead?

Not like he takes up a slot... or is even in that army

In other news, do noise marines even have a use?

liquidjoshi wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:for space marines it has to be the tech preist. why waste valuble points and elites slots on one guy when i could be getting a dread instead?

Not like he takes up a slot... or is even in that army

In other news, do noise marines even have a use?

Actually they surprisingly do! Ignore the blastmaster and the sonic weapons, and give them an aspiring champion with a Doom Siren, and you have a very effective MEQ/GEQ Cover killing beast, makes for a far better MEQ killer than the dedicated MEQ killing Thousand Sons.

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Doom sirens are about the only thing going for them though.

liquidjoshi wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:for space marines it has to be the tech preist. why waste valuble points and elites slots on one guy when i could be getting a dread instead?

Not like he takes up a slot... or is even in that army

I think he means Techmarines. Which are a lot of points for a one wound model, don't do a whole lot, and compete with all the cool stuff in the elite slot. I could see fielding them in apoc games where you don't have to worry about the FOC. In a normal game I have no space for them, even if I was willing to pay the points.

Fenrisian wolves, Unless your fighting a Marine list of pure Tac squads. even then . they will never get to the enemy. and i always wanted to have massive horde of these little pups but they truely will only be a cheap bullet sponge.

- FrostTooth

Nevelon wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:for space marines it has to be the tech preist. why waste valuble points and elites slots on one guy when i could be getting a dread instead?

Not like he takes up a slot... or is even in that army

I think he means Techmarines.

But otherwise I agree.

Noise marines also hit before most marines, are fearless, and wield 2 weapons. With the doom siren and a power weapon they become pretty effective marine hunters even when de meched. Just make sure your army has lots of melta and maybe slap a combi onto the rhino.

Csm really benefit from a unit or two that are there to mop up what falls out of the transports or disruptive/ defensive elements that aren't berserkers.

Ok, I'll cut to what i actually mean: Why can't fluffy noise marines with sonic weapons be viable? Or, rather, costed well? If they weren't 25ppm I'd take them.

l0k1 wrote:For GKs, id have to say the purgitation squads are pretty crappy. 4 psycannons on 5 guys sounds good but its expensive and kind of pointless when its suppose to be a unit that sits back and lays down fire, but has to be too close just to be in range.

So the ability to shoot at targets they can't even see isn't good enough by itself?

In CSM its either Possessed or the Dread, possessed are too random for their own good. And the Dread because, well its the only unit in the game that can intentionally hurt its own force (other than Kharn... but there's a reason they call him the betrayer)

In SM its either scout bikes or TFC reasons have been listed by others...

So the ability to shoot at targets they can't even see isn't good enough by itself?

They are basically the same as Tyranid Hive Guard with a better tank buster and unit breaker without multiple wounds. Take that as you will.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
So the ability to shoot at targets they can't even see isn't good enough by itself?

Oh, I'm sorry, is the 4+ unmodifiable cover save given to you by that rule, that neuters rending and thus any sort of vehicle shooting over AV11 not good enough for you? IIRC, most marines don't walk around with a 4+ INV save. Seriously, Purgation squads are not exactly

Kain wrote:

DragonRider wrote:Hive Guard. They can take hits. They look awesome. They can't kill a thing.

Are you high? Hive Guard are the bane of anything with AV12 and below, they are a godsend for an army than desperately needs to be able to shoot transports to death before they can unload their cargo in your face.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

Kain wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:The Forge World LRs, apparently, can leave much to be desired. The LRH, with a Whirlwind launcher up top instead of the heavy bolter, sounds nice... Except for two things. The launcher itself, according to some, can be easily countered by spacing, though I find it works well anyways. In addition, you've still got a transport capacity of 6 marines or three terminators... Which means if you want the most bang for your buck, you're gonna put something in there that fits the Helios... Basically, that means Devastators. The combination could be devastating... Except the LRH is expensive, many would say overly so, and the Devastators are VERY expensive. And that takes up two HS slots, a valuable commodity for Codex Marines.

I really wonder why the Land Raider Helios even has transport capacity. It's loadout clearly signifies a vehicle that is not meant to get even remotely close to the enemy. I'd personally think it'd be made better if they went the route of the Ares and the Terminus Ultra and stripped out the carrying capacity in favour of two heavy or one superheavy weapon. I'd personally say two (not twinlinked) autocannons would suit it nicely for some added long range dakka.

To me, the Helios was always begging for a five-six man Devastator squad, but... EGH! The LR is expensive, the Devs are expensive, both could be argued to be somewhat underwhelming, so you get a big ol' deathstar that has no guarentee of pulling its weight and takes up two HS slots. Granted, I may just be crazy enough to try that, but still. Blech.

Hm... Autocannons on a LR? Why not twin-linked, rifleman dreads have 'em... Still, I sense a homebrew in the mix...

Because two of one weapon is always better than a twinlinked version of that weapon. Unless you meant two twinlinked autocannons, which would be rather hilarious.

Well, why not? They come with TL-LCs, why not TL-ACs?

Pouncey wrote:I thought Assault Marines came with Jump Packs...

On my end, it would have to be Repentia. Love the models, but it's a real shame that they're so ineffective because they strike last due to their Eviscerators.

A repentia squad is a chainfist with 4-9 ablative wounds. Each of whom ALSO have chainfists. And fleet. Repentia will wreck nearly anything on the board except massed power weapons, even without their act of faith. The lack of a transport is pretty grim, though.

Honestly, the most useless unit in the SoB codex for my money is... the basic SoB squad. If they didn't hold objectives you couldn't pay me to take them.

liquidjoshi wrote:

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
So the ability to shoot at targets they can't even see isn't good enough by itself?

Oh, I'm sorry, is the 4+ unmodifiable cover save given to you by that rule, that neuters rending and thus any sort of vehicle shooting over AV11 not good enough for you? IIRC, most marines don't walk around with a 4+ INV save. Seriously, Purgation squads are not exactly

ALL GREY KNIGHTS ARE



As it is i also have to mention the Armoured sentinel. for the same cost i can get twice the firepower and the ability to transport 12 troops. the weapon upgrades are over priced-5pts for a heavy flamer over a multilaser?!?! No way!!! That said they do have their uses as infantry support walkers......

Black Templars: PA Sword Brethren.
Imperial Guard: Punisher Leman Russ, Ratlings.
Orks: Stormboyz, Looted Wagons.
Eldar: Warp Spiders, Bright Lances, Guardians.
Dark Eldar: Hellions.
Space Wolves: Blood Claws.
Tau: Stealth Suits.
Chaos Marines: Noise Marines.
Dark Angels: Scout Squads.

I have 3.

Lootas: Too vulnerable to running away and taking a huge chunk of points with them.

Big Gunz: Not worth the cost

Stormboyz: Far too expensive for a unit no better in combat than ordinary boyz. With the added bonus that they kill themselves from time to time!

For my Nids. Units I will never use again:

Pyrovore - never gets to kill anything, dangerous to own troops
Lictor/deathleaper - reserve bonus is broken, T4
Biovores/spore mines - vehicles just run over the mines, only useful against all-foot lists
Harpy - most obvious model on the table, but with a 4+ armour save
Ripper swarms - not even if free from the PoM.
Sky-slasher - faster rubbish is generally still rubbish
Old one eye - 260 pts of slow moving, no mycetic spore, fail

That's just the real bad stuff, never mind the marginally bad stuff such as Tyrannofex (overcosted and WS3), Hormogaunts (need all the upgrades to be worthwhile and then why not just take genestealers), warriors/shrikes/raveners (nice if they weren't missile bait), mawloc (1 attack every 2 turns makes this too pricey), venomthrope (nothing wrong per se just 4th in elites behind hive guard, zoanthropes, ymgarl), Parasite of Mortrex (see Wraith for how much this should really cost), most carnifex builds (again, see Tomb Spyder for cost comparison).

No surprise that most competitive Nid lists are very similar when 2/3 of the codex has real issues. Rant over.

Hollowman wrote:

Pouncey wrote:I thought Assault Marines came with Jump Packs...

On my end, it would have to be Repentia. Love the models, but it's a real shame that they're so ineffective because they strike last due to their Eviscerators.

A repentia squad is a chainfist with 4-9 ablative wounds. Each of whom ALSO have chainfists. And fleet. Repentia will wreck nearly anything on the board except massed power weapons, even without their act of faith. The lack of a transport is pretty grim, though.

Honestly, the most useless unit in the SoB codex for my money is... the basic SoB squad. If they didn't hold objectives you couldn't pay me to take them.

Repentia are still uncontrollable since they have Rage. The only way to control them is to borrow a transport from another unit and arrange your units so they can't see the enemy. There big problem isn't assaulting its surviving to the assault. Some bolt rounds and a flamer hit and they will be losing more than a couple fo models. Even 9 bolt pitsols and a flamer from a Tac sqaud and you are looking at like 3 dead. The number goes up with more shots naturally. They just aren't that tough for an assault unit. I still say the Penitent Engines are more useless for Sisters. They are in direct competition with Exorcists, they are sqaudroned, 11/11/10 open-topped, have Rage, and are way over-priced.

master of ordinance wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
So the ability to shoot at targets they can't even see isn't good enough by itself?

Oh, I'm sorry, is the 4+ unmodifiable cover save given to you by that rule, that neuters rending and thus any sort of vehicle shooting over AV11 not good enough for you? IIRC, most marines don't walk around with a 4+ INV save. Seriously, Purgation squads are not exactly

ALL GREY KNIGHTS ARE



As it is i also have to mention the Armoured sentinel. for the same cost i can get twice the firepower and the ability to transport 12 troops. the weapon upgrades are over priced-5pts for a heavy flamer over a multilaser?!?! No way!!! That said they do have their uses as infantry support walkers......

Which is why you take Scout Sentinels...

CruelCoin wrote:Lootas: Too vulnerable to running away and taking a huge chunk of points with them.

What?

So a unit that is more often than not able to pop a transport every turn shutting down your opponents maneuverability and allowing you to run in with your Waaagh move and krump slower moving units is rubbish? These things are increadibly useful against transport heavy armies, even more so against Dark Eldar. Also, I wouldn't call 150pts for 10 a 'huge chunk', plus, if you get them in cover, they can survive a decent amount, and any firepower that is going into your Lootas is not going into other units.

Marzillius wrote:
My most underwhelming unit is probably the Phoenix Lords. They are soooo expensive and sooooo useless. I think Swooping Hawks are way better.

I disagree Mugan Ra and Fuegan are both great and the striking scorpions PL (kharadras?) Is great fun in foot lists.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

terranarc wrote:Longfangs.

Care elaborating? I assume there's some rationale behind your comment.

I think he's on crack.

C:SM most underwhelming....Vanilla Assault Marines, no where near enough punch for an assault unit. Or the humble Tech Marine, if he came with a free servo harness at 50pts he would be credible. As an Iron Hands player this pains me more than you could know.

EDIT - I do like the idea of a Dakka Landraider, e.g 3 x Twin linked Autocannons. Maybe it would be called the Rifleman Ultra.

Foolish_Hyena wrote:

Marzillius wrote:
My most underwhelming unit is probably the Phoenix Lords. They are soooo expensive and sooooo useless. I think Swooping Hawks are way better.

I disagree Mugan Ra and Fuegan are both great and the striking scorpions PL (kharadras?) Is great fun in foot lists.

Close enough. Karandras. I agree with you though. Having said that, I do think that Fuegan is a bit overkill. You're paying over 200pt and yes, he will kill any vehicle, but a Fire Dragon squad would do it just as well in most cases for less points. So I'd probably take Fuegan out of that list and replace him with Jain Zar, she's a CC beast and the cheapest Pheonix Lord.

The Whirlwind.

Necrons - Stalker. Yawn

Mine would have to be the Avatar of Khaine, He doesn't even have EW!!!! AND, Mephiston(is just as tough), and your average captain with a Fist can hit harder. And don't even bother bringing him vs GK. The other would be what was once my favorite. Dark Reapers, They cost 35pts per man, and are almost worthless now, bc of all the GK/Blood Angels Deepstriking-my-whole-army with buffs to reserve rolls. Their dead before they even get to fire if your opponent has any sense. From another codex though, would be mandrakes, and Kerudrak, they just sit there for a turn, and get mowed. They are way too expensive for what they do. Same thing with Lictors, but then again, what in the Nids dex IS worth a squirt of piss?