Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Anpu42 wrote:
stuff

Why ask about the tactics then deflect by throwing all the character abilities into the mix? The characters abilities aren't what is being debated, you asked specifically about the chapter tactics then shift gears to talk about rules granted by character models because you can't defend the tactics adequately.

A 1" increase on average for running does nothing to boost the units threat of assault range. Meanwhile Ultramarines can gain fleet on a number of units, or rerolls in combat due to their chapter tactics and as mentioned Raven Guard double their movement range and gain a bonus in combat. Templars gain distance in sweeping advance, but you need to not only reach combat but also win so it's a passive ability.

The secondary problem with having the running "boost" is that in order to reach combat Templars (and other marines) are reliant on deploying via assault ramp either by landraider or stormraven. The vehicle rolls up and deploys the units into assault range and the unit assaults. There's no running involved, so there's no absolutely benefit from crusader rerolls.

Crusader is of no benefit to getting into assault or giving any benefit that might help you win assault. Any sort of bonus would have been preferable, fleet would allow them to at least increase their distance in a way that creates synergy with assault, or granting ay sort of stat boost like furious charge or rage etc. But instead they get slightly increased running which does nothing to help reach or win an assault.

The problem is that crusader and adamantium will are passive effects, and situationaly dependent on being of benefit. The chapter tactics offered to other chapters are all much more proactive, rerolls in shooting, extra movement, rerolls to wound. Even the other passive effects like increased cover saves or wound regeneration don't require a situational effect and have a blanket benefit in virtually ever game every.

As it stands I can play any other chapter and have a chapter tactics benefit that helps me in a much more proactive fashion by either boosting my ability to inflict damage or by boosting my survivability against all forces. (not just pyskers)

If you don't understand that there's nothing else I can offer you as you're being deliberately obtuse and/or trolling.

No I am looking for Results
I keep hearing "It Will Not Work" Period
I have not heard "I have tried a half dozen times and it did not work".
Is that asking for to much?

I have tried a half dozen times and it did not work.

Actually I've tried it more than that (9 games w Templars, only 1 win) and it still didn't work. I have had much better results playing my marine as Iron Hands or as Raven Guard. My preference is Raven Guard as due to their scout rule I can reliably get into assault with them. (I played 5 games with RG and won 4 of those)

There you go.


But I'm sure you'll find some way to disqualify my experiences as they don't fit your point of view.




.

 paulson games wrote:
I have tried a half dozen times and it did not work.

Actually I've tried it more than that (9 games w Templars, only 1 win) and it still didn't work. I have had much better results playing my marine as Iron Hands or as Raven Guard. My preference is Raven Guard as due to their scout rule I can reliably get into assault with them. (I played 5 games with RG and won 4 of those)

There you go.


But I'm sure you'll find some way to disqualify my experiences as they don't fit your point of view.

No I will not disqualify you, why would I do that. I am trying to fugure out what works and what does not.
If you want to I would like you to elaberate a little. Things like vs Who, Did you ever make it into Melee, that kind of thing.
Also What would have helped?

Raven Guard works because it's able to cross much more ground both through deploying as scouts and being jump infantry. Every game I was not only able to have my tactical squads in range to shoot but I was able to pull off successful assaults.

The problem with Templars which I've already pointed out is that they need to be a transport based army, being restricted to 10-16 man squads negates the benefit of using a full strength crusader squad. If using a Rhino it gets killed crossing the field or the troops get blasted to hell when they deploy and before they have a chance to charge. If anything manages to survive it's usually quite weak and has a difficult time winning the assault as they no longer have enough punch. When you have 3 models against a full strength squad you are simply going to lose.

The Storm raven moves fast but there is a lot of meta out there that kills it, Tau and Eldar are both very popular here and they both have range so they bone vehicles with weaker armor. Even a one riptide list carves up vehicles and assault units very nicely, and people here aren't "the gentlemanly type" playing an intentionally weak force so most have 3-4 tides in their army. Because shock and surprise they want to play their army strengths and win.

Landraiders have more survivability but they are a huge points drain. At 1850 a fully loaded crusader with either Hellbrecht or Grimaldus is roughly 30% of the force, it kills stuff fast in assaults but that should be expected when it's a 1/3rd of you points. The problem is that assuming it survives long enough to reach the enemy is that it only really hits one unit. It tends to murder that unit but then it's stuck in the open for a full round or more as the enemy pulls away from it and just pours fire into it. If you opponent is smart and spreads out so they don't gift you any juicy deathstar targets in effect you trade a 1/3rd of you army to kill maybe half it's points in return. In previous editions they could consolidate into other threats but now they have to stand in the open in between charges which whittles them down fast leaving a squad so weakened where it may not be able to shoot or assault effectively.

Landraiders are tough but they still get killed from massed fire, there are plenty of cheap vehicles that can bring enough firepower to do the job. Once the raider is down the troops inside are in-effective as they can't survive enough massed fire to have enough models to deal with assaulting effectively. Even though Hellbrecht or the Emperor's Champion can wreck house in combat if they don't have a enough bodies to shield them even Tau have potential to beat them in combat.

Helldrakes and fliers are murder on infantry and transports Templars are no exception to this, they get cheesed out just as badly as other infantry and crusader squads being focused on cc are of no use. Where other tactical marines can at least put up a better volume of fire and at least pray.


Other chapters are simply more flexible and offer better shooting options which is why they tend to fare better. Raven Guard has the ability to close the distance which is why IMO they are the only real option for playing a marine based assault army. They have tools to tie up key units in assault for a much lower points cost. An assault squad can murder an opposing unit for roughly an even trade off in points before dying to massed fire, where with the Templars Landraider approach you invest significantly more points than what you tend to kill. Also when RG assault units win combat their jump movement means they can almost always catch other near by units even if they are trying to pull way, even if they die against the 2nd squad it ties things up for a turn while your other more durable units can advance without as much massed fire being shoved in their face.

I was pretty sure that the Raven Guard chapter tactics did not give scout to bulky infantry (like jump packs) and their ability to use jump packs in movement and assault doesn't allow them to move any further than using jump packs in movement only, it just makes charging more reliable and gives them the hammer of wrath ability all the time.

Mistyped what I meant in regards to range, the assault troops move at double the speed of the crusader squad while retaining their charge distance re-roll and their HOW combat re-roll. Their chapter tactics allow them to move the full 12" and still retain their charge distance reroll. (where non-RG lose the charge re-roll if they want a 12" move) That does increase their threat range for assaults where crusader granted running does not.

With RG I deploy tactical units in a forward position for shooting and drawing fire, standard assault squads advanced behind them for cover and leapfrog over the tacticals as needed, which functions as a meat shield so that the squad assaults at full strength, usually against a weakened target. On the second turn Shrike with a unit of vanguard usually ties up a key unit for 1-2 turns while the other units all move up or lay down fire on units not being assaulted.

Previous codex the Templars foot slogging had the neophytes as their meat shield, usually allowing the squad to reach assault with 10 marines and special charater possibly with a couple neos remaining for good measure. Now I find that anything that attempts to foot slog or deploy from a rhino is reaching their target with a half strength unit of marines ( maybe 4-5 out of 10 if I'm lucky). The only way I've managed to get a full 10 man Templar unit into combat is assault ramps which are only on expensive vehicles or use jump troops. The jump troops aren't nearly as effective when they don't have forward units to help screen them or soften targets. Which is why they tend to work much better with RG. When you are stuck using 10 marines in a crusader squad or using a 5/5 mix it doesn't save as the same proportion of points as the large tide blobs would, plus you also have to pay the vehicle tax.

I have gotten Templars into assault using LRCs but the problem is that it's a very pricey deathstar unit and after it kills the primary target it usually falls apart well before killing it's share of points.

My one win was against death korps who was trying to play a parking lot tanks with 2 units of cav riders because he likes the models, I knew what he'd have so I ran a 3 LR force with minimum infantry and he was having horrid luck trying to glance or pen. That win hardly even involved any assaulting, so maybe my focus should be on Templar armor forces

Fair enough.

For what it's worth Black Templars are, after Dark Angels, one of my well liked Space Marine Chapters, and I intend to model a Templar Grand Master on bike to accompany my Ravenwing (when I finally get it finished).

So many models, so little time.

Just to drive home the point of how bad Crusaders are at melee:

10x Khorne Berzerkers cost 200 points. For that you get 41 S5 attacks on the charge at WS5.

For 200 points you get 10 Crusaders and 6 Neophytes. That's 48 S4 attacks on the charge at WS4/3.

Crusaders get better shooting options, Khorne Berzerkers get the reroll charge distance banner. All in all, I'd say they're roughly equivalent in melee; the Berzerkers hit harder but don't have as many bodies.

When was the last time you saw someone take Khorne Berzerkers?

But at the same time, you're comparing an Elite dedicated-melee unit that is utterly reliant on getting the charge, and comparing it to a Troop unit formed on versatility and then working under the ideal circumstances for the Berzerkers.
For the Templars to break even under this condition, I'd consider it a great win. Because they are matching a singe-purpose Elite unit, in their own field, with the conditions set to favour them.

While it might not be how you want them to play, how do 200pts of Crusaders work when you take them in 5-man squads with Grav-Guns and your choice of Heavy Weapons?
Because like it or not, Crusader squads are currently built to spam out special weapons like the Las-Plas days of old. And in this field, they absolutely excel. You have a density of special weapons that rivals Biker armies except that it is based on having bodies rather than T5/speed.
Playing them as a zealoty mob might be how you prefer the fluff, but as it stands the rules not only favour making a gunline, they actually allow quite a good one. Certainly a better one that was allowed under the last dedicated book.

An elite dedicated melee unit that everyone agrees should have been Troops to start with. Further, the difference between laspls squads and bike armies is that the bike armies have matching special weapons and mobility, whereas lasplas squads are more or less immobile and have one 48" weapon and one 24".

Regardless of what it 'should have been', Berzerkers are indeed held to be mediocre and one of those reasons is that they are not inherently a Troops Choice.

I am not arguing that Crusaders are better than Bikes, or even capable of matching them. I believe that bike armies will be the best format for Marines for the full duration of this book, even without ducking into White Scar tactics.
What I *am* arguing is that:
- Crusaders are in the best state they have ever been, so to call this Codex weaker than the Templars book is silly.
- I believe that Crusaders are better than Tactical Squads, regardless of the Chapter Tactics in use. Double-weapons in conjunction with sub-standard Tactics are better than 6+ FNP, better flamers etc.
- I believe that Crusaders are a useful unit to have access to and the best part of your Chapter Tactics.
- I believe that nobody is forcing you to play Black Tide, which is just as well because Black Tide is, and was, mediocre to awful. Arm your Crusaders with Bolters, take the special weapons you are entitled to, and if you want more meatshields then protect them with cheaper Neophytes.
- Black Templars can make decent armies on par with every other Chapter Tactics that isn't White Scars, because you are effectively Space Marines that trades 2 good Chapter Tactics for 2 poor ones and access to a good unit.
- These decent armies are not based on rushing forwards in big melee blobs. You will have a much easier time of it by using Bolters, special weapons and Neophytes.

More than anything your comparison just highlights why Berzerkers are naff, when an unpopular generalist unit can beat them under the Berzerkers ideal circumstances.

Mozzamanx wrote:

- Crusaders are in the best state they have ever been, so to call this Codex weaker than the Templars book is silly.

Old lasplas squad 101 points. New 105. Old melee squad had 4 attacks each on the charge, Fearless in CC and Righteous Zeal, new one has grenades and is slightly cheaper.

Mozzamanx wrote:

- I believe that Crusaders are better than Tactical Squads, regardless of the Chapter Tactics in use. Double-weapons in conjunction with sub-standard Tactics are better than 6+ FNP, better flamers etc.

It's the same amount of weapons as everyone else, it's just that we can take both a heavy and a special at 5 men instead of 10. That's hardly better than the other CTs.

Mozzamanx wrote:


More than anything your comparison just highlights why Berzerkers are naff, when an unpopular generalist unit can beat them under the Berzerkers ideal circumstances.

The thing is, melee Crusaders aren't generalists at all. They're a specialized melee unit. Grey Hunters would be a generalist unit, but being able to build a unit in two different ways doesn't make it a generalist unit if it can't actually do both in-game.

To be fair, your Crusader squads were always going to become more expensive because the previous book was written when Plasma Guns were 6pts each. To have the same squad come out so close is incredible. Frankly I'm amazed they let you keep them at all since shooting was never really the Templars 'thing', just what it did best on the tabletop.
For a comparison look to Kabalite Warriors and the infamous 'Sniper squad'. It's the closest thing I can find to what the Crusaders saw, except the Kabalites went from 100pts to 220pts.

You'll get more heavy weapons because you only need 5 dudes to unlock them, instead of the 10 that everyone else pays. Every other Chapter pays 140pts to get 2 unlocks, you pay 140 and get 4. It is significantly better than other Chapters get.
For all the points about losing them since you don't have enough bodies to hide them, you also get cheaper meatshields from Neophytes. Templars are currently the Chapter that can get the highest concentration of infantry heavy-weapons, and then protect them with the cheapest bodies. This is a very big thing to have. Whether it is inferior to Bikes is irrelevant, because Tacticals are also invalidated but Crusaders are in a better standing relative to them.


I stand by Crusaders being in the best position they've ever been. Being 2 points cheaper, gaining Grenades, gaining a Sergeant and then giving that Sergeant a little polish, is much better than situationally getting 1 more Attack. Especially since that Attack bumped the cost up so that it's more like ~3pts cheaper since Vows were not free.
Whether the Tactics are weaker than others is not a problem, since:
a) They are better than where they came from.
b) Old Templars had just as much reason to Chapter-hop as the current ones. Having a separate book doesn't make it any more or less justified to play Black Scars.
c) I don't even think the Tactics are weak, only that they do not allow Black Tide to be competitive. Neither did the dedicated book.

Mozzamanx wrote:

c) I don't even think the Tactics are weak, only that they do not allow Black Tide to be competitive. Neither did the dedicated book.

Or any sort of melee whatsoever. If I wanted to play a shooty Chapter, I'd play a shooty Chapter. The old book was better from a melee perspective even if it wasn't competetive.

It wasn't better for melee, it had far more expensive infantry that sometimes had an extra attack. It was also faster (though still slower than taking transports) at the expense of being utterly incapable of holding objectives.

The new book has:
- Significantly cheaper Crusaders that also gained free Grenades and Sergeants
- Significantly cheaper Bikes and Assault Marines
- The ability to take Bikes as Troops
- Vanguard Veterans
- Honour Guard
- Chapter Master Beatstick
- Ironclad Dreadnoughts
- Scouts with Land Speeder Storms
- Assault Centurions (Even if they do suck)
- Stormraven (Printed, I know DftS gave you early access)
- Land Raider Redeemers
- Crusader USR
- The ability to hold an objective through a shooting phase

The old book had:
- Rage
- A better Emperors Champion that was forced upon you
- Cheaper Venerable Dreadnoughts
- The option to buy Furious Charge for your Terminators
- Fearless in combat
- Moving in the enemies turn, either towards them or breaking and running.

The army might have allowed for assault-based lists in 4th Edition, but do not pretend that it was working in 6th. At the very best, it allowed them from Drop Pods specifically because it was so out-of-date and then further butchered by an FAQ. Even if you did play it like it was written, there was absolutely no way it was going to stick about.

Mozzamanx wrote:
It wasn't better for melee, it had far more expensive infantry that sometimes had an extra attack. It was also faster (though still slower than taking transports) at the expense of being utterly incapable of holding objectives.

Again, GTG and you won't run off the objective. We've said this before.

Mozzamanx wrote:
It wasn't better for melee, it had far more expensive infantry that sometimes had an extra attack. It was also faster (though still slower than taking transports) at the expense of being utterly incapable of holding objectives.

The new book has:
- Significantly cheaper Crusaders that also gained free Grenades and Sergeants
- Significantly cheaper Bikes and Assault Marines
- The ability to take Bikes as Troops
- Vanguard Veterans
- Honour Guard
- Chapter Master Beatstick
- Ironclad Dreadnoughts
- Scouts with Land Speeder Storms
- Assault Centurions (Even if they do suck)
- Stormraven (Printed, I know DftS gave you early access)
- Land Raider Redeemers
- Crusader USR
- The ability to hold an objective through a shooting phase

Assault Marines are still rubbish, Vanguard Veterans are still rubbish, we already had a beatstick for less than 200 points, LRR doesn't really matter, Crusader's already been discussed as has objective-holding, Ironclads are nice, Honour Guard is balanced out by having our TH/SS Terminators nerfed.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Again, GTG and you won't run off the objective. We've said this before.

So that's a better melee solution is it? You have a choice of abandoning your objectives or removing the unit from play for a turn? When the options available are 'Abandon objective, either advance or flee' or 'Abandon next turn' it doesn't really inspire much confidence about the rule. It basically comes down to 'Yes it will shoot you in the foot, but you can elect to ignore it at the expense of using the unit next turn.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Assault Marines are still rubbish, Vanguard Veterans are still rubbish, we already had a beatstick for less than 200 points, LRR doesn't really matter, Crusader's already been discussed as has objective-holding, Ironclads are nice, Honour Guard is balanced out by having our TH/SS Terminators nerfed.

But they are better than they used to be. This thread was to discuss how the army turned out and it received buffs pretty much across the board. That those buffs were not enough to open up a specific playstyle is more to do with the Edition than the Codex. The only nerfs are those that have been consistently applied across all the Marine books, being Veteran Skills, Terminator Honours, Hammernator costing etc.
An occasional Attack and 5pt increase to a unit that has been hiked up through every preceding Codex is a small price to pay for the swathe of new units and reducing costs across nearly every other melee unit.

Mozzamanx wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Again, GTG and you won't run off the objective. We've said this before.

So that's a better melee solution is it? You have a choice of abandoning your objectives or removing the unit from play for a turn? When the options available are 'Abandon objective, either advance or flee' or 'Abandon next turn' it doesn't really inspire much confidence about the rule. It basically comes down to 'Yes it will shoot you in the foot, but you can elect to ignore it at the expense of using the unit next turn.

If you're stood on top of the objective you can't fail to hold it. If you Zeal forward you move at most 6", which means you can move back. If you fall back you run at most 12", which means that you're within 3" after your regroup and move. You don't even have to GtG.

Mozzamanx wrote:


But they are better than they used to be. This thread was to discuss how the army turned out and it received buffs pretty much across the board. That those buffs were not enough to open up a specific playstyle is more to do with the Edition than the Codex. The only nerfs are those that have been consistently applied across all the Marine books, being Veteran Skills, Terminator Honours, Hammernator costing etc.
An occasional Attack and 5pt increase to a unit that has been hiked up through every preceding Codex is a small price to pay for the swathe of new units and reducing costs across nearly every other melee unit.

I disagree. It doesn't matter if Vanguard Veterans got better or if we got access to Assault Centurions, because they're still awful units. If the cost of a Juggerlord went up by 30 points but Possessed and Mutilators went down 5PPM that'd still be a nerf, because Possessed and Mutilators are still crap, and the Juggerlord is worse off. Options don't mean anything if they're rubbish.

You can certainly fail to hold it if you don't get a chance to move back on. For instance, if it's the last turn of the game and your opponent went second, so something that you'd see in 50% of your games. Your banking your entire strategy on not failing a Break check.

And your CSM comparison isn't quite valid because you're treating it as though there are only 3 units to consider. It would be more like, your Juggerlord gets more expensive in exchange for cheaper Mutilators and Possessed. And then you also receive shiny new Berzerkers, Spawn and Maulerfiends, and then Warp Talons nearly halve in price. The net effect is a stronger melee army even if it is based on different units to the previous book.
Terminators are probably worse off than they were before, which could be seen for miles off judging by the cost increase being applied to every other incarnation of the unit. You've just got to rely on the massive number of new options you just received, along with buffs to the rest of the lineup. The Honour Guard alone probably balance out the damage done to the Terminators.

I'm unsure of how many posts we want to drag this back-and-forth debate, but it's just been us two for quite a while. Suffice it to say that I think we have a very different opinion of the changes to the book.
- You look at the book and see price increases on Hammernators, units losing Rage and the Emperor's Champion being nerfed. In addition, the removal of Righteous Zeal has resulted in a slower army. Overall the army has not fixed the fundamental issues with melee-MEQ armies.
- I look at the book and see price cuts on nearly everything else, with the price drops more than making up for the loss of Rage in my opinion. I see the nerf to Hammernators as an expected thing and instead welcome the new units to take their place. More importantly I see massive buffs to your shooting game and the loss of Righteous Zeal as a good thing, with the potential speed made redundant by the loss of control and the increased number of assault transports being an alternative.

I sympathise with Templar players in the sense that nobody likes to feel that their army is a subset of another or somehow less important of attention. I sympathise that Black Tide is a really poor army and has fallen very far from its original intentions.
However I strongly disagree that the army is worse off than it was before and believe that the improvements far outweigh the nerfs, even if they orient the army in a new direction.

Mozzamanx wrote:
More importantly I see massive buffs to your shooting game and the loss of Righteous Zeal as a good thing, with the potential speed made redundant by the loss of control and the increased number of assault transports being an alternative.

What increased number of assault transports? The only new one is the LRR, which is a weapon swap.

I'd say you've received 2 and a half new transports:
- The Land Raider Redeemer is a new transport in exactly the same way that the Crusader was
- You've got the Storm
- You've got half a transport in that the Stormraven is now in print. It might not deserve even a half rating to be fair.

As mentioned (a long, long time ago) I have no stake in the army, no personal sympathies or loyalties, and no regular players that use the Templars and so I imagine I'd have an easier time looking at the brighter parts of the update. For someone with more investment in the army I'd imagine the losses stick out a whole lot more.

Mozzamanx wrote:
I'd say you've received 2 and a half new transports:
- The Land Raider Redeemer is a new transport in exactly the same way that the Crusader was
- You've got the Storm
- You've got half a transport in that the Stormraven is now in print. It might not deserve even a half rating to be fair.

As mentioned (a long, long time ago) I have no stake in the army, no personal sympathies or loyalties, and no regular players that use the Templars and so I imagine I'd have an easier time looking at the brighter parts of the update. For someone with more investment in the army I'd imagine the losses stick out a whole lot more.

Ah, I forgot the Storm, which is rather silly considering I've had some decent success with it as an "annoyance" type of unit. It's, in my opinion, pretty decent, so at least we can agree on that. If only it could carry something more than Scouts though .

I know! How about 3 LRCs with a multimelta, "packed" with five Templars carrying a plasma gun, a 100pt character, 3 stormravens, and two of those ravens are carrying five man units. What could go wrong?

Oh wait...that list wouldn't even likely be fun.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I know! How about 3 LRCs with a multimelta, "packed" with five Templars carrying a plasma gun, a 100pt character, 3 stormravens, and two of those ravens are carrying five man units. What could go wrong?

Oh wait...that list wouldn't even likely be fun.

Actually that list kinda sounds cool, it's unique.

Anyone wanna try it and see how it goes? I don't have three storm ravens.

 paulson games wrote:
Raven Guard works because it's able to cross much more ground both through deploying as scouts and being jump infantry. Every game I was not only able to have my tactical squads in range to shoot but I was able to pull off successful assaults.

The problem with Templars which I've already pointed out is that they need to be a transport based army, being restricted to 10-16 man squads negates the benefit of using a full strength crusader squad. If using a Rhino it gets killed crossing the field or the troops get blasted to hell when they deploy and before they have a chance to charge. If anything manages to survive it's usually quite weak and has a difficult time winning the assault as they no longer have enough punch. When you have 3 models against a full strength squad you are simply going to lose.

The Storm raven moves fast but there is a lot of meta out there that kills it, Tau and Eldar are both very popular here and they both have range so they bone vehicles with weaker armor. Even a one riptide list carves up vehicles and assault units very nicely, and people here aren't "the gentlemanly type" playing an intentionally weak force so most have 3-4 tides in their army. Because shock and surprise they want to play their army strengths and win.

Landraiders have more survivability but they are a huge points drain. At 1850 a fully loaded crusader with either Hellbrecht or Grimaldus is roughly 30% of the force, it kills stuff fast in assaults but that should be expected when it's a 1/3rd of you points. The problem is that assuming it survives long enough to reach the enemy is that it only really hits one unit. It tends to murder that unit but then it's stuck in the open for a full round or more as the enemy pulls away from it and just pours fire into it. If you opponent is smart and spreads out so they don't gift you any juicy deathstar targets in effect you trade a 1/3rd of you army to kill maybe half it's points in return. In previous editions they could consolidate into other threats but now they have to stand in the open in between charges which whittles them down fast leaving a squad so weakened where it may not be able to shoot or assault effectively.

Landraiders are tough but they still get killed from massed fire, there are plenty of cheap vehicles that can bring enough firepower to do the job. Once the raider is down the troops inside are in-effective as they can't survive enough massed fire to have enough models to deal with assaulting effectively. Even though Hellbrecht or the Emperor's Champion can wreck house in combat if they don't have a enough bodies to shield them even Tau have potential to beat them in combat.

Helldrakes and fliers are murder on infantry and transports Templars are no exception to this, they get cheesed out just as badly as other infantry and crusader squads being focused on cc are of no use. Where other tactical marines can at least put up a better volume of fire and at least pray.


Other chapters are simply more flexible and offer better shooting options which is why they tend to fare better. Raven Guard has the ability to close the distance which is why IMO they are the only real option for playing a marine based assault army. They have tools to tie up key units in assault for a much lower points cost. An assault squad can murder an opposing unit for roughly an even trade off in points before dying to massed fire, where with the Templars Landraider approach you invest significantly more points than what you tend to kill. Also when RG assault units win combat their jump movement means they can almost always catch other near by units even if they are trying to pull way, even if they die against the 2nd squad it ties things up for a turn while your other more durable units can advance without as much massed fire being shoved in their face.

If I lived near you I would play a couple games to try out solutions. Like proxying a LRC as a LR Spartan. I don't know if they could have added that to the codex due to the whole Forge World thing, but I think it would be cool to have the templars carve out a niche as the tank-assault SM. Since BA are the jump-assault and SW are the cavalry assault/ counter attack. I think that 2 spartans and the full crusader complement to them should probably run around 900 points, but still, that's a pretty solid base since they are troops. Would make BT brutal in Relic as well. I play Ravenwing so that's a good mid-tier benchmark army I feel like.

I certainly have my grievances, but access to some of the cool units I've always wanted on my BT lists is very nice. As it stands my biggest grievance is with the fluff changes. I'll still play them as primary army, no doubt about that. Well, so much as I currently play at all, with the local "scene" being in quite a slump - most likely moving to another city come spring/summer, so hopefully it's more lively there in that respect.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Getting an utterly worthless chapter tactics is the problem. Black Templars needed thier chapter tactics to offset the inherit disadvantage of assault armies in some way. What they got is pretty much nothing.

6th Edition is the 'shooty' edition. The Templars were treated no differently than any other CC focused army. I think the new Tyranids Codex pretty much proves GW has no intention of letting any army be purely CC oriented. I'm not saying that's good or bad, but it is the way the game will be for the next few years.

So, what part of the Black Templar tactics supports their shooting? Oh, right, nothing.

 Anpu42 wrote:
No I am looking for Results
I keep hearing "It Will Not Work" Period
I have not heard "I have tried a half dozen times and it did not work".
Is that asking for to much?

Page one, my first post on this thred. I tried half a dozen times before deciding whether I buy a templar army or not.
You are just arguing for arguments sake. You are wrong and refuse to acknowledge it. Black Templars do not work, whether as shooting or as melee army. Every other chapter tactic is superior to theirs. Having a single viable special character and ok troops does not fix that - even suggensting Grimaldus as an awesome choice shows how you have absolutely none of the experience you are demanding of everyone else. How about YOU go play half a dozen games with templars and come back here before continuing your argument. By all means, field Grimaldus. Watch him die to a daemon prince in a single attack, getting him sniped by a barrage weapon or simply having his unit torrented down by a pair of wave serpents. Right after that go charge a crusader squad into anything that's not gretchin.

You are playing in a completely uncompetitive environment with bad lists. This is is losing the game on purpose, even if it is for a good reason. An environment where people lose on purpose is not fit to test the competitive viability of anything.

Jidmah said it, not me. But that DOES explain Anpu's wildly different outcomes compared to many other posters.