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So, now that the dust has settled a bit and we've had some time to (attempt to) accept the fact that BT got rolled, what are your opinions on how the army plays? I'm not interested in whether or not you think Templars belong in their own book or not, I'm interested in the way people think things turned out.

I, for one, still hate it. When the only two good (non-HQ) melee units in the book are Honour Guard and TH/SS Terminators it's kinda hard to get any melee-ing done, especially considering the state of melee in 6th edition. With the loss of Righteous Zeal and Rage, as well as the massive nerf to our Chaplains, Crusader Squads can no longer, in my opinion, pull their own weight as melee units. We're stuck in the same boat as our traitor-equivalent, the World Eaters: a few powerful melee units and a lot of meh ones, where the good ones more or less has to take a Land Raider of some sort to get into combat (and I'm being generous and calling Khorne Berzerkers "good once they're in melee" here, which they're really not).

As a closing note, I'm going to be pretentious enough and quote myself:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
[Why can't Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and other marine forces do the same thing?

Skriker

Because we don't trust GW to not feth it up. I wouldn't mind seeing Templars rolled into the Vanilla Codex if it was done well, I've just not seen anyone do it well yet.

To me, my cynicism seems to have been vindicated.

Thoughts?

But BT were never melee they were always shoty. they spamed minimax las/plas and tank hunter cyclon armed terminators with 2 hvy weapons in 5 man squads and a lot of cylcon armed speeders. I have never seen anyone in 5th or 6th play BT as a melee , and considering they had the same codex in 4th , I would have expected that they were run the same back then .
Maybe you run them wrong all the time ?

Makumba wrote:
But BT were never melee they were always shoty. they spamed minimax las/plas and tank hunter cyclon armed terminators with 2 hvy weapons in 5 man squads and a lot of cylcon armed speeders. I have never seen anyone in 5th or 6th play BT as a melee , and considering they had the same codex in 4th , I would have expected that they were run the same back then .
Maybe you run them wrong all the time ?

I do assume you've read the BT fluff, yes?

That said, CML Terminators and Speeders were only around for the latter half of 5th edition when GW updated CMLs to work the same in all Loyalist Codices (along with Storm Shields, Signums and some other stuff). In 4th you could consolidate into close combat, making Righteous Zeal a much better rule than in 5th and (especially after the FAQ) 6th.

In 4th, Templars could be ran as a working melee Codex, it's just that in 5th and, even more so, 6th edition the things that made the old Codex work either got changed or FAQ'd. The Codex didn't age very well, causing people to spam whatever worked. That doesn't make the Codex one that's supposed to be a shooting army. All the special rules in the 4th edition Codex either buffs melee somehow (better cover, scout moves, Preferred Enemy/Rage, +1S in close combat, Righteous Zeal) or is actually detrimental to shooting (reduced Ld target priority).

Well there is a significant difference to World Eaters.

Crusaders are dirt cheap (or at least no dearer than other Marines) and can have ranged weapons.

They weren't a significant assault presence in 5th edition either, or at least I never saw them used as such. Minimum squad sizes with maximum ranged weapons seemed to be the way to go.

Of course, unlike Khorne Berzerkers, Crusaders can at least take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport if you really want to get across the battlefield. I doubt it's feasible to fill your troop choices with five man squads in Land Raiders, but it would be a different army.

Assault terminators were the only worthwhile assault unit in 5th edition, so making Honour Guard feasible as an assault unit is actually an improvement. Vanguard allow the same equipment as power armoured Sword Brethren and can have jump packs.

Less clearly distinct from Codex Marines they certainly are, but I think they gained a bit from being rolled into the Codex, including the fact that they'll now be updated whenever the Space Marines are updated.

Overall I'd say the changes were neutral. Neither better nor worse than they were, just different.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Well there is a significant difference to World Eaters.

Crusaders are dirt cheap (or at least no dearer than other Marines) and can have ranged weapons.

CSM with the Mark of Khorne and Standard are better in CC than Crusader Squads and can still take ranged weapons (two specials>one special and a heavy). When was the last time you saw someone run that?

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

Assault terminators were the only worthwhile assault unit in 5th edition, so making Honour Guard feasible as an assault unit is actually an improvement. Vanguard allow the same equipment as power armoured Sword Brethren and can have jump packs.

Crusader Squads were feasible as delivery systems for a Marshal or Chaplain. Rerolls to hit on EVERYONE meant a lot. Losing the Crusader Squad as semi-useful unit isn't worth gaining one more super-expensive melee unit that requires you to take a super-expensive HQ to unlock it. Vanguard Veterans aren't good. Assault Centurions aren't good. Thanks to the changes in Chapter Tactics (loss of RZ, Rage, and nerfed Chaplains) Crusader Squads got WORSE in close combat compared to the old Codex, even if they did drop in cost and picked up Grenades.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

Less clearly distinct from Codex Marines they certainly are, but I think they gained a bit from being rolled into the Codex, including the fact that they'll now be updated whenever the Space Marines are updated.

Overall I'd say the changes were neutral. Neither better nor worse than they were, just different.

Gained a lot of stuff that everyone else does better. Let's be honest, if not for stubborn refusal to give up, why would anyone ever play with the BT Chapter Tactics over one of the others?

The last sentence (inadvertently?) sums up the entire problem; it's different to how the fluffs portrays them, and it's not stronger in 6th edition than the 2004 Codex released two editions ago if you're playing it as Black Templars.

The BT player in our group gave up on them and sold his army. Now he is playing Orks.

I for one like it.

I will grant you I am fairly new, but I read the Black Templar codex in 5th edition, and read helsreach and got totally sold on their fluff. They are my favorite chapter, by far.

However, just because they are a close combat squad, doesn't mean you can forget shooting. So lets look at the good close combat squads
Honor Guard
TH/SS Terminators
Full Crusader squads in LRC

How many more close combat units do you want? Lets not forget this is a sci-fi setting with huge tanks, massive plasma guns, gauss rifles, and large turrets. Yes, Black Templar have a love for bringing the fight to close quarters, but they aren't foolish enough to forget their shooting. The one thing I don't like about the army though is the BT named HQs. I feel the emperors champion is a big let down, and that the chapter champion from the honor guard is actually better than he is.

That being said, there are a lot of tools in the space marine codex that give the BT more range, more options, and a much better chance at winning than the 4th edition codex. Are their CT tournament worthy? probably not, but I still like the feel the have.

I'd sell my templars if I could find someone...... (to put it politely, due to the new rules) gullible enough to want a BT army, think I'll stick with my IG as my main army from now on. To say I'm not impressed with the changes is an understatement!

The thing all those melee units have in common is that you have to run them in Land Raiders to make them effective (and even then, Crusader Squads aren't really that effective at actually killing things for how much they cost). Yes, the new Codex very likely is more powerful if you go full shooting, but I'd argue that it's actually WORSE at melee than the old one (and it wasn't exactly murdering its way through the game...). As for the increase in shooting power, everyone else does that better. Why would you take CT:BT if the only thing it's better at than everyone else (melee)is something at which the Codex sucks anyway?

As you say, all three of the Special Characters are jokes (with Helbrecht being the closest to playable in my opinion), and the only buff to close combat we get is rerolls and rending in Challenges on Characters. Compare that to Bolter Drill or the Salamanders thingie. There's virtually nothing to help Templars be better in CC than any average Marine, and our supposed way into Close Combat adds slightly less than 1" on average per turn. I don't mind Crusader, it's a good rule, but not as a replacement for Righteous Zeal.

I'm actually not too convinced that the new Codex is stronger than the old one. The things that makes Codex: Space Marines competetive either aren't available at all (Tigurius/Librarians) or aren't that good outside of certain Chapter Tactics (Bikers (White Scars/Iron Hands), Sternguard (IF/Salamanders)). The only thing that's the best with Chapter Tactics: Black Templars are Crusader Squads, and that's only because no one else gets them. We already had Stormtalons/Stormravens and gave up double-weapon Terminators for Centurions and a rather hefty nerf in CC power for Crusaders for a slight drop in cost and grenades.

Speaking as someone familiar with the book but not an actual BT player, I understand the frustration at losing your shiny bells but find it very hard to believe that the army is worse off.
In almost every sense the army was made stronger, you've leapt ahead regarding future updates and available units, and the true 'losses' can be counted on one hand.

Half of the Templars 'traits' were actually generic 4th ed traits that were only existing because the army was so badly out of date. Veteran skills, heavy terminators, customisable heroes and PotMS were never yours to lose, the only reason you had them was because you were so left behind that nobody had bothered to take them off you yet.
What did you actually lose?

Holy Orbs of Antioch and the Blessed Hull. 2 pieces of wargear, one of which existed purely to spite an intended hard counter to Land Raider armour.
You lost Righteous Zeal which single-handedly made objective games essentially unwinnable. Any benefit the rule might have given died with 4th because in its latest incarnation, it simply made your Scoring units worthless.
You lost a range of Vows available, which might matter if it weren't for the fact that in the entire books lifetime I never saw anything other than AAC. Incidentally that had already changed from PE to Rage, so redefining it a second time cannot be that bad.

In exchange for these 4 unique traits you've gained a massively expanded armoury and unit selection, point drops across the board and the guarantee that your book wil never be outdated ever again.
You even kept your Las-Plas squads against all expectations.

Fluff and the uniqueness of a dedicated book are different altogether but in terms of performance, you have skyrocketed.

 Icculus wrote:


How many more close combat units do you want? Lets not forget this is a sci-fi setting with huge tanks, massive plasma guns, gauss rifles, and large turrets. Yes, Black Templar have a love for bringing the fight to close quarters, but they aren't foolish enough to forget their shooting. The one thing I don't like about the army though is the BT named HQs. I feel the emperors champion is a big let down, and that the chapter champion from the honor guard is actually better than he is.

That being said, there are a lot of tools in the space marine codex that give the BT more range, more options, and a much better chance at winning than the 4th edition codex. Are their CT tournament worthy? probably not, but I still like the feel the have.

You're right it's scifi. Anything goes. There is nothing that says that range weapons have to be better than power armor and force fields. There are plenty of examples in scify/fantasy where shooty lasers become redundant due to better protective technology and fighting falls back to melee.

As far as gameplay goes Black Templar Chapter tactics are the weakest of the bunch. Admantium will is ok but Crusader is pretty poor and Accept any Challenge are meh compared to the options that other chapters get.

Special characters are also mediocre at best. You can kit a standard SM Captain better than the Emperors Champion. Grimaldus is ok but his servitors can no longer join another unit with him like before so they aren't worth taking. You are better off taking two Chaplains for the same price which gives you more wounds more attacks and flexibility. A standard SM Chapter master can be kitted better than Helbretch and gets Orbital bombardment and can get eternal warrior.

The Crusader squad is still available which is the highlight of the Black Templar options. Can still field 20 man squads or 19 if you take a Sword Brother(Vet Sgt). You can still take a special/heavy/combi weapon combo in a 5 man squad. Gives you the option of fielding a very shoot army with multiple small units.

Black Templars were a close combat oriented army with rules that helped them foot slog across the field faster and hit hard on the assault. That was overshadowed by an old rule set that allowed them to min max MSUs in the last edition of the codex making them excel as a shooty army. Now that they have been rolled in, i don't expect GW to bother spending any more effort on them. They are basically a foot note now being one less product line that GW needs to support.

Sure you can take grav centurions, thunder-fire cannons, dev squads, etc... At that point just play Ultra marines painted black since their tactics are better.

I have played Black Templar since 4th, and I have to agree that they lost their identity.

Being rolled into the codex was not beneficial to the players that wanted their own identity. Did BT gain a lot of the book? Yes they did, but other chapters with BETTER traits also gained these things, making playing Black Templar largely pointless.

We get Crusader Squads (as already covered- a mediocre melee unit at best), and over costed unique Characters.

What the naysayers need to realize is that Black Templar players don't really WANT to play them as a shooty army (for the most part). That's not what BT is all about. In 4th they were arguably the best Marine equivalent of a melee based army.

In essence, we were squatted. Yes, we got a small section in the new Marine Codex, but it may as well be nonexistent.

I have not heard anyone talking about Templar since the new book came out- hell, people talked about Templar more in 5th (and even that was rare).

Whatever the identity of Templars was supposed to be in 4th, it died long before they were rolled in. This book is an update of what the Templars became, for good or bad, and on that basis it is absolutely an improvement.

Melee-Marines were not viable under the last Codex when placed in 6th edition. You still only saw shooty Crusaders, unless they were abusing clearly unintentional Drop Pod mechanics that again, only existed because they were out of date. Your Codex became the missile-spewing, Terminator heavy Marine army that simply abandoned objectives and had an arbitrarily restrictive armoury.
'Black Tide' sucked as soon as 6th was released, not with the new book. To pretend that this book robbed you of a play style seems petty when that style was utterly redundant, weak and borderline unplayable.

Complaints that the book did not return your melee style are more warranted, but the state of the game would require massive changes and plummeting points costs. Frankly it was a case of accepting this update, or remaining in bad-mechanics limbo as you try and force a 4th ed style and mechanics into a game 2 editions removed.

Mozzamanx wrote:
Whatever the identity of Templars was supposed to be in 4th, it died long before they were rolled in. This book is an update of what the Templars became, for good or bad, and on that basis it is absolutely an improvement.

Melee-Marines were not viable under the last Codex when placed in 6th edition. You still only saw shooty Crusaders, unless they were abusing clearly unintentional Drop Pod mechanics that again, only existed because they were out of date. Your Codex became the missile-spewing, Terminator heavy Marine army that simply abandoned objectives and had an arbitrarily restrictive armoury.
'Black Tide' sucked as soon as 6th was released, not with the new book. To pretend that this book robbed you of a play style seems petty when that style was utterly redundant, weak and borderline unplayable.

Complaints that the book did not return your melee style are more warranted, but the state of the game would require massive changes and plummeting points costs. Frankly it was a case of accepting this update, or remaining in bad-mechanics limbo as you try and force a 4th ed style and mechanics into a game 2 editions removed.

Oh I acknowledge that, it's more so the BT players had a glimmer of hope that GW would actually give us our identity back instead of relegate us to another shooty Marine army.

Although in reality they haven't addressed melee with any books in this edition. Nids, the supposed answer to the prevalence of gunlines and shooty armies in 6th, is also a mid-range shooty armor (just with more numbers).

Quite frankly this edition is incredibly boring for anyone that doesn't overly favor shooting, but to each their own. Note I am not suggesting melee should be king again, just more balance between the two.

Balance is anathema to GW.

I use the generic Chapter Master with all the special goodies. Talk about a close combat beast! 2+/3++ eternal warrior with 6 attacks if he's with an honor guard, or FnP with a command squad. Then the honor guard gets 2 attacks each and all have power weapons. That feels like Black Templar to me.

You can still run black tides, and you can even get more initiates in now because they are cheaper. You want to run 4 LRCs at 2000 points each loaded with initiates? go for it. should leave you around 400 points for an HQ and some ranged/air support.

Don't just look at the Black Templar units (crusader squads and HQs) and CTs in the codex and say now BT suck. The whole book is BT! Is the whole book worse than 4th edition codex? You can ally in whoever you want and paint them all Black Templar you know.

I think you are more upset that dedicated close combat is not successful in this edition. When you say this is sci-fi and anything it possible, you are right, but you have to have rules to back it up. So instead of being upset that Black Templars didn't get a huge close combat buff, you should be upset that this is a shooting favorable setting now. Maybe next edition, close combat will come back.

Were you looking for their chapter tactics to be: Ignores Overwatch? Because that would honestly make them really good in close combat.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I'm not interested in whether or not you think Templars belong in their own book or not, I'm interested in the way people think things turned out.

It would be totally awesome if people would stick to the topic given by the OP.

Personally, from my couple of games with borrowed minis, it felt like I could never fit enough land raiders or storm ravens into the list to make an army that feels like the Black Templars described in fluff. Assaulting out of pods is clunky and worse than podding scoring sternguard anyways. Dreads don't benefit from chapter tactics, Helbrecht or Grimaldus in any way, so they are out of the picture for angry assaulty marines as well.
It boils down to having two assault units at most with a ton of support fire. If one of the delivery systems fails, the unit inside tends to be completely worthless, if it's not killed outright anyways (plane crash).

The big issue is the chapter tactics being completely worthless compared to the other ones. An additional point to Deny the Witch! is nice against daemons and Space Wolves, unused against anything else. The challenge buff means that most people don't rely on their 3+ armor to win challenges and are more likely to decline if anything. Considering how most of my units were stationary or inside transports, extra speed from crusader didn't really do anything from me either.

In the end, BT is better than Raven Guard, but worse than Ultramarines (Chapter Tactics: Tigurius), Imperial/Chrimson Fists, Salamanders or White Scars. The CC buff should have been to all models, not just those in challenges, both Grimaldus and Helbrecht should have conferred their buffs to the entire force and being able to mount assault ramps on rhinos would also have been nice. As it is, BT don't have anything that sets them apart from any other chapter except cute but irrelevant treats. Considering how the go-to assault chapter Blood Angels is also failing, it's not surprising that a Chapter with literally no special close combat ability is failing as well.

Luckily for me, realizing this before actually buying any minis saved me a couple hundred euros. Too bad GW, you almost had me throwing another 400€ at your terrible game by luring me in with that beautiful setting


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Icculus wrote:
Don't just look at the Black Templar units (crusader squads and HQs) and CTs in the codex and say now BT suck. The whole book is BT! Is the whole book worse than 4th edition codex? You can ally in whoever you want and paint them all Black Templar you know.

The issue is, almost every single one of those choices would have been better if you just pick a different chapter tactic. Crusader squads is the only thing BT have going for them at all, and while being able to bring twice as many special weapons is nice, its not even remotely in the same league as Tigurius, white scars chapter tactics or even scoring sternguard.

Were you looking for their chapter tactics to be: Ignores Overwatch? Because that would honestly make them really good in close combat.

Against tau maybe. I usually lose 0-3 orks to overwatch, I'd argue that a unit in power armor, artificer armor or even tactical dreadnought armor shouldn't be giving a damn.

Jidmah just summed up my own feelings rather well. When the only way to get into combat is by Land Raider, it's not going to work reliably.

The thing is, they wouldn't even have had to try to make it (the Chapter Tactics) better than what they did. Rerolls in close combat, bring back 4th edition Righteous Zeal, DONE.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Jidmah just summed up my own feelings rather well. When the only way to get into combat is by Land Raider, it's not going to work reliably.

The thing is, they wouldn't even have had to try to make it (the Chapter Tactics) better than what they did. Rerolls in close combat, bring back 4th edition Righteous Zeal, DONE.

That's pretty much 6th in a nutshell TBH, most melee units are hampered by poor choices in getting to assault.

Meqs in general are bleh in CC. And the delivery methods don't help either.

They would be the very last chapter tactic I would pick tbf. You can make a far better list than BA if going shooty but if you WANT to make an assaulty list (and you are BT so you obviously do want to) then we have FAR better options. And we are considered one of the most underpowered over costed dexes. I really feel your pain, why should you be hamstrung into creating a shooty list when you dont want to? Also if BA were rolled into the vanilla dex I would have rage quitted!
Allied inquisition, guard blobs, BA and even white scars could really help you out. But why should you be required to need allies to be an effective assault army when your entire fluff and gw showcase armies are all about assault???

As I quoted myself saying, I don't mind being rolled, what I do mind is getting nerfed when we had a 9 year old Codex. That's more than GWs usual incompetence. Even the CSM Codex, bland and uninspired as it is, buffed them.

Before the codex was released I tried to be positive about being rolled in.

I hoped getting access to expanded options and how good some of the rumored Chapter Tactics were sounding made things seem promising.

I was wrong.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So, now that the dust has settled a bit and we've had some time to (attempt to) accept the fact that BT got rolled, what are your opinions on how the army plays? I'm not interested in whether or not you think Templars belong in their own book or not, I'm interested in the way people think things turned out.

I, for one, still hate it. When the only two good (non-HQ) melee units in the book are Honour Guard and TH/SS Terminators it's kinda hard to get any melee-ing done, especially considering the state of melee in 6th edition. With the loss of Righteous Zeal and Rage, as well as the massive nerf to our Chaplains, Crusader Squads can no longer, in my opinion, pull their own weight as melee units. We're stuck in the same boat as our traitor-equivalent, the World Eaters: a few powerful melee units and a lot of meh ones, where the good ones more or less has to take a Land Raider of some sort to get into combat (and I'm being generous and calling Khorne Berzerkers "good once they're in melee" here, which they're really not).

As a closing note, I'm going to be pretentious enough and quote myself:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
[Why can't Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and other marine forces do the same thing?

Skriker

Because we don't trust GW to not feth it up. I wouldn't mind seeing Templars rolled into the Vanilla Codex if it was done well, I've just not seen anyone do it well yet.

To me, my cynicism seems to have been vindicated.

Thoughts?

Most of these issues seem to be edition/core rules related and not necessarily an issue with the army being rolled into C:SM. Getting stuff into melee effectively is a general issue of this edition (though I'm also of the opinion it's a good one, assaults should be something to clear an enemy from a specific position not the primary attack method, but that's another thread altogether).

The changes to Chaplains happened in 5E, the BT army list just didn't catch up, as did the double heavy weapon terminators and the like. likewise Rage wasn't anything useful except for the first year-ish of 6E for BT's, it was more of a detriment in 4E and 5E. Righteous Zeal is something of a loss, but who knows if it would have survived as it was if the BT's had gotten their own book, given how similar special rules from 4E, I don't think it's a safe bet.

All this said, Templars gained access to numerous units they did not have before, they have Strenguard and Vanguard vets to replace Sword Brethren, more than a fair trade. They also got all the other SM goodies and standard units.The BT's now have access to fliers, to LR Redeemers, Ironclad Dreads, Thunderfire cannons, AA units, cheaper drop pods and rhinos, etc. The Emperor's Champ is no longer a mandatory character, which should be a good thing, Templar forces need not pay for one if they don't need him, but can still bring him if they want, though yeah he's not quite as good as before.

Ultimately, no, the Templars aren't going to play like they used to, just as C:SM doesn't play like it did in 4th edition. Overall however, BT's have access to a much expanded arsenal and a greater array of capabilities and options than they had before, and, if played with that in mind, are certainly more capable than their old book. If one wants to try and keep playing a 4E paradigm of an assault minded army consolidating into new combats and after getting stuck in with everything on turn 2, that won't work, but then it didn't really work in 5E either, 6th just drove it home.

 Vaktathi wrote:


The changes to Chaplains happened in 5E, the BT army list just didn't catch up, as did the double heavy weapon terminators and the like. likewise Rage wasn't anything useful except for the first year-ish of 6E for BT's, it was more of a detriment in 4E and 5E. Righteous Zeal is something of a loss, but who knows if it would have survived as it was if the BT's had gotten their own book, given how similar special rules from 4E, I don't think it's a safe bet.

Both Blood Angels (5th edition) and Dark Angels (6th edition) still have W3 I5 Chaplains with access to gear. Rage was Preferred Enemy before GW decided to change that for no reason in the 6th edition FAQ.

 Vaktathi wrote:

All this said, Templars gained access to numerous units they did not have before, they have Strenguard and Vanguard vets to replace Sword Brethren, more than a fair trade. They also got all the other SM goodies and standard units.The BT's now have access to fliers, to LR Redeemers, Ironclad Dreads, Thunderfire cannons, AA units, cheaper drop pods and rhinos, etc. The Emperor's Champ is no longer a mandatory character, which should be a good thing, Templar forces need not pay for one if they don't need him, but can still bring him if they want, though yeah he's not quite as good as before.

BT already had fliers (and as such AA) and had cheaper Drop Pods than Codex: Space Marines.

As I've already said, I'm not too sure that the new Codex played as BT is better than the old book, even when going shooting. The good units in Codex: Space Marines are good because they benefit in some way from Chapter Tactics. Grav-bike spam is good because you get either 6++ FNP or Skilled Riders from Iron Hands or White Scars, Sternguard are good because of Vulkan or Kantor, and Gravturions are good because of Tigurius. None of those builds are very impressive with CT:BT.

BT aren't what they used to be IMHO. Even now I'd rather play with the old codex than the current one. Although BT were more viable at shooting than assaulting even in 5th, their assault was still viable. Their infantry moved quickly, and PE crusader squads with chaplains could put the beat down on all but the toughest enemy units. Now they're slightly faster regular marines, albeit with new toys. But I would much rather loose these and have the standard initiates be able to pack a punch in CC than this ridiculous situation there is now. Being able to simply take chainswords and a hidden PF isn't nearly enough.

What really miffs me is the loss of character and the fething up of their named heroes. I've tried countless times to field the EC successfully, but he simply can't recover his 140pts.

We play in edition where melee is severely hampered for everyone. Templars can throw everyone into Raiders for the assault ramp. Black Templar Rhinos should get assault ramps because?

All Space Marines lost their 4th edition Chaplains, some just lost them in 5th edition. You can still have 10 initiates, 4 neophytes, and a Chaplain in a Crusader, and charge them out with re-rolls to hit.

Are White Scar tactics better if you take bikes? Yes they are. Nonetheless Black Templars can take bikes as troops anyway. Are Imperial Fists better if you load up on bolter marines? Yes they are, but you can take bolter marines anyway.

Black Templars are a Space Marine army with a bias towards melee. They have flexibility. They are not great in melee, but they are still better at it than other Marines.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Both Blood Angels (5th edition) and Dark Angels (6th edition) still have W3 I5 Chaplains with access to gear.

And all Chaplains in 3E/4E were W3 I5. Only the "Angel" chapters kept them however. One will note that SW's don't have W3 chaplains (er... "Wolf Priests") either. They were never a specific BT hallmark.

BT already had fliers (and as such AA)

It was only the Storm Talon though if I'm remembering correctly, not the Stormraven (or was it the other way around?) plus they now have the new ground based AA units/weapon options.

and had cheaper Drop Pods than Codex: Space Marines.

Were their pods cheaper? I don't have the book in front of me, I thought they were more expensive. I could be remembering that wrong.

As I've already said, I'm not too sure that the new Codex played as BT is better than the old book, even when going shooting. The good units in Codex: Space Marines are good because they benefit in some way from Chapter Tactics. Grav-bike spam is good because you get either 6++ FNP or Skilled Riders from Iron Hands or White Scars, Sternguard are good because of Vulkan or Kantor, and Gravturions are good because of Tigurius. None of those builds are very impressive with CT:BT.

They may not be as impressive when not tailored to the specific combat tactics, I won't deny that, but they are better than what the BT's had with their previous codex and give them an increased array of options relative to what they had.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
We play in edition where melee is severely hampered for everyone. Templars can throw everyone into Raiders for the assault ramp. Black Templar Rhinos should get assault ramps because?

Because melee is severely hampered for everyone. It'd help it be not as hampered. Not sure where you're going with this.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

All Space Marines lost their 4th edition Chaplains, some just lost them in 5th edition. You can still have 10 initiates, 4 neophytes, and a Chaplain in a Crusader, and charge them out with re-rolls to hit.

Read the thread.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Black Templars are a Space Marine army with a bias towards melee. They have flexibility. They are not great in melee, but they are still better at it than other Marines.

Marginally. Still worse than the 9 years old 4th edition Codex.

 Vaktathi wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Both Blood Angels (5th edition) and Dark Angels (6th edition) still have W3 I5 Chaplains with access to gear.

And all Chaplains in 3E/4E were W3 I5. Only the "Angel" chapters kept them however. One will note that SW's don't have W3 chaplains (er... "Wolf Priests") either. They were never a specific BT hallmark.

Ah, forgot about the Space Wolves. 50/50 split it is then, with the two more recent ones being W3 I5. You'd think that a crusading army would have some sort of Chaplain bonus, but no...

 Vaktathi wrote:

BT already had fliers (and as such AA)

It was only the Storm Talon though if I'm remembering correctly, not the Stormraven (or was it the other way around?) plus they now have the new ground based AA units/weapon options.

The thunderfire cannon doesn't do anything worthwhile?

Thats just one example, but I think playing space marines with chapter tactics BT against a 4th ed codex Black Templars at the same point level would prove this. I am fairly certain the 6th ed codex would beat the 4th ed codex almost everytime.