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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

I'd say that though grey knights have shooty builds, they're still meant for assaulting. The only reason shooty builds have emerged is 6th. In 5th, purifiers and paladins were all the rage.

And what did those two builds have in common? Psycannons. Lots and lots of psycannons. Purifiers aren't an assault unit, they're a shooting unit that can handle themselves in an assault. In short, everything Tactical Marines ought to be but aren't.

Purifiers are a dedicated assault unit that had the cleansing flame psychic power. It dealt wounds equal to the number of enemy models in combat before blows were struck. They also had I6 force weapons as well. This allowed for them to take out hoards and elites with ease. Don't mix it up with purgation squads. Psycannons are like the lootas of the GK codex. (borrowing your earlier point about orks) The fact that they have a couple good shooting option doesn't change the fact that the GKs were written with close combat in mind.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

I'd say that though grey knights have shooty builds, they're still meant for assaulting. The only reason shooty builds have emerged is 6th. In 5th, purifiers and paladins were all the rage.

And what did those two builds have in common? Psycannons. Lots and lots of psycannons. Purifiers aren't an assault unit, they're a shooting unit that can handle themselves in an assault. In short, everything Tactical Marines ought to be but aren't.

Purifiers are a dedicated assault unit that had the cleansing flame psychic power. It dealt wounds equal to the number of enemy models in combat before blows were struck. They also had I6 force weapons as well. This allowed for them to take out hoards and elites with ease. Don't mix it up with purgation squads. Psycannons are like the lootas of the GK codex. (borrowing your earlier point about orks) The fact that they have a couple good shooting option doesn't change the fact that the GKs were written with close combat in mind.

Purifiers get 2 Psycannons per 5 men, so 4 at 10. Cleansing Flame is there to prevent them from getting bogged down by hordes. They're still primarily shooting units. You'd take Purifiers because they had amazing firepower and were nigh-impossible to lock down in combat, not because they were good in combat alone.

The problems with BT vs Space Wolves is why I hate the concept of Grey Hunters. Or at least, Grey Hunters compared to all other meqs.

I wouldn't mind it if Crusader Squads got some sort of rule to make them better than assault marines on foot in melee (Furious Charge would be enough, although it'd be encroaching on BA territory). With Wolf Banners and Mark of the Wulfen, Grey Hunters are still better off than Crusaders, while being better at shooting too.

You can encroach on BA territory. It's not worth having anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
You can encroach on BA territory. It's not worth having anyway.

What will you post about if BA get the best codex of the edition? Just curious.

They won't. They are meqs. Oh, and choppy. Sounds so OP. If they don't get grav, they'll be down with the DA and CSM.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

I'd say that though grey knights have shooty builds, they're still meant for assaulting. The only reason shooty builds have emerged is 6th. In 5th, purifiers and paladins were all the rage.

And what did those two builds have in common? Psycannons. Lots and lots of psycannons. Purifiers aren't an assault unit, they're a shooting unit that can handle themselves in an assault. In short, everything Tactical Marines ought to be but aren't.

Purifiers are a dedicated assault unit that had the cleansing flame psychic power. It dealt wounds equal to the number of enemy models in combat before blows were struck. They also had I6 force weapons as well. This allowed for them to take out hoards and elites with ease. Don't mix it up with purgation squads. Psycannons are like the lootas of the GK codex. (borrowing your earlier point about orks) The fact that they have a couple good shooting option doesn't change the fact that the GKs were written with close combat in mind.

Purifiers get 2 Psycannons per 5 men, so 4 at 10. Cleansing Flame is there to prevent them from getting bogged down by hordes. They're still primarily shooting units. You'd take Purifiers because they had amazing firepower and were nigh-impossible to lock down in combat, not because they were good in combat alone.

Not really, they get far cheaper melee weapons, they ARE a primary melee unit.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

I'd say that though grey knights have shooty builds, they're still meant for assaulting. The only reason shooty builds have emerged is 6th. In 5th, purifiers and paladins were all the rage.

And what did those two builds have in common? Psycannons. Lots and lots of psycannons. Purifiers aren't an assault unit, they're a shooting unit that can handle themselves in an assault. In short, everything Tactical Marines ought to be but aren't.

Purifiers are a dedicated assault unit that had the cleansing flame psychic power. It dealt wounds equal to the number of enemy models in combat before blows were struck. They also had I6 force weapons as well. This allowed for them to take out hoards and elites with ease. Don't mix it up with purgation squads. Psycannons are like the lootas of the GK codex. (borrowing your earlier point about orks) The fact that they have a couple good shooting option doesn't change the fact that the GKs were written with close combat in mind.

Purifiers get 2 Psycannons per 5 men, so 4 at 10. Cleansing Flame is there to prevent them from getting bogged down by hordes. They're still primarily shooting units. You'd take Purifiers because they had amazing firepower and were nigh-impossible to lock down in combat, not because they were good in combat alone.

Not really, they get far cheaper melee weapons, they ARE a primary melee unit.

16 S7 AP4 Rending shots at 24" and you want to use them as a melee unit?

Yeah I'm not sure why people are seeing them as a primary melee unit. Not to be offensive here but did you see Grey Knights at their peak? Purifier builds were based on spamming Psycannons, either from a Rhino or alongside Razorbacks. This is because the sheer density of S7/Rending made it one of the primary shooting forces of the day.
In the unlikely event that anything made it thorugh the firestorm, that is when the A2/Cleansing Flame/Force came out and polished off the survivors.

At the very least we could agree that Purifiers were overpowered, but I maintain that they were a better shooting unit than they were as a combat unit.

 Icculus wrote:
The thunderfire cannon doesn't do anything worthwhile?

The wat

theres like

wat

Do you actually think a thunderfire cannon isn't worth its weight in gold?

This thing is like the grey wizard of 40k. Sure it isn't great against beasts, but this thing could stop your opponent waltzing onto an objective turn 5. This thing could tear a unit in cover to shreds, this thing can put so many wounds on a large unit that it won't be funny.

have you ever actually used a TFC? or are you just talking from a closed mind?

Also, BT tactics are awful. and why the hell does the emperor's champion not have the champion of humanity warlord trait automatically?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
The thunderfire cannon doesn't do anything worthwhile?

The wat

theres like

wat

Do you actually think a thunderfire cannon isn't worth its weight in gold?

This thing is like the grey wizard of 40k. Sure it isn't great against beasts, but this thing could stop your opponent waltzing onto an objective turn 5. This thing could tear a unit in cover to shreds, this thing can put so many wounds on a large unit that it won't be funny.

have you ever actually used a TFC? or are you just talking from a closed mind?

Also, BT tactics are awful. and why the hell does the emperor's champion not have the champion of humanity warlord trait automatically?

He's saying that the TFC is great, which I can agree with.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
The thunderfire cannon doesn't do anything worthwhile?

The wat

theres like

wat

Do you actually think a thunderfire cannon isn't worth its weight in gold?

This thing is like the grey wizard of 40k. Sure it isn't great against beasts, but this thing could stop your opponent waltzing onto an objective turn 5. This thing could tear a unit in cover to shreds, this thing can put so many wounds on a large unit that it won't be funny.

have you ever actually used a TFC? or are you just talking from a closed mind?

Also, BT tactics are awful. and why the hell does the emperor's champion not have the champion of humanity warlord trait automatically?

He's saying that the TFC is great, which I can agree with.

Have I pulled his quote out of context?

Apologies if I have.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
The thunderfire cannon doesn't do anything worthwhile?

The wat

theres like

wat

Do you actually think a thunderfire cannon isn't worth its weight in gold?

This thing is like the grey wizard of 40k. Sure it isn't great against beasts, but this thing could stop your opponent waltzing onto an objective turn 5. This thing could tear a unit in cover to shreds, this thing can put so many wounds on a large unit that it won't be funny.

have you ever actually used a TFC? or are you just talking from a closed mind?

Also, BT tactics are awful. and why the hell does the emperor's champion not have the champion of humanity warlord trait automatically?

He's saying that the TFC is great, which I can agree with.

Have I pulled his quote out of context?

Apologies if I have.

It's a question, signified by the question mark at the end.

I settled on BT because of the Holy Hand Grenade. Seriously, it was awesome having a Monty Python item show up in my games to rain havoc on my enemies. I also really liked the EC, and he's garbage now. So EC is worthless (and no longer a required/free HQ slot), HHG is gone and AAC is gone. Most people avoid challenges, so the trait skill is garbage too. I tried running a horde army of BT and had the most unenjoyable game of 40k ever. No thanks, it's a big thumbs down. And for the record, I ran a horde army of BT in 5th and had a blast with them. Now...forget about it.

Space Wolves are not an Assault Army, they can be, but they are not. Note the key Words here are “Are” and “Can”. They are a Mid-Ranged-Shooty-Army with Superior-Counter-Attack Ability.
Yes we have the Thunderwolf Cavalry and Fenrisian Wolves and that is it for the Assault part of the army. Everything else requires Independent Characters to become an Assault unit and none of them are cheep.
Crusaders vs. Blood Claws: To make Blood Claws truly effective you need 15 Blood Claws, a Wolf Priest and a Land Raider Crusader [Taking up a HS choice] and that will run you 575 points bare bones, 590 tooled up the same way. The Crusader Squad can pull off the same thing for 442 points, 466 with a Character or 501 tooled up.
Crusaders vs. Grey Hunters: I can pull off a Hidden Power Fist and a MotW and two Special Weapons. That is nice, but I also only have 10 Wounds and a Rhino or Drop Pod as a Transport choice without taking a HS Choice. This means also that I can’t take a Character.

Not Having a Character is a bad thing at times. Without a Character your Sword Brethren with a Power Sword immediately becomes a Hidden Power Sword to of along with that hidden Power Axe and weight of bodies. If I don’t finish you off in the 1st Turn, the Grey Hunters Will Loose. The winner will probably come down to who Assaulted Who.

You can shoot me at 24" and still be as good as me in CC. See where the problem lies? Then there's the whole Wolf Standard/Terminator Wolf Guard combo that lets you tank wounds on a rerollable 2+ armour save once per game in combat.

Plus, if I charge you, you most likely get as many attacks as me AND Overwatch with Bolters. If you charge me, I get overwatch with Pistols and one less attack than you.

I don't think Templars ever really deserve their own codex being a successor chapter. Salamanders or Imperial Fists are much more deserving.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't think Templars ever really deserve their own codex being a successor chapter. Salamanders or Imperial Fists are much more deserving.

Second Founding's the earliest any Chapter's existed. Prior to that both the Imperial Fists (Chapter) and the Black Templars were part of the Imperial Fists Legion. The Legion is not the same as the Chapter.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You can shoot me at 24" and still be as good as me in CC. See where the problem lies? Then there's the whole Wolf Standard/Terminator Wolf Guard combo that lets you tank wounds on a rerollable 2+ armour save once per game in combat.

Plus, if I charge you, you most likely get as many attacks as me AND Overwatch with Bolters. If you charge me, I get overwatch with Pistols and one less attack than you.

The 24" inch range is great, but you can also put out 150% my rate of fire at 12" and double my Attacks in an Assualt.
Wolf Standard: This why I said it depends on the who got the chage. You also have the coice of not Assualting me when I pop the Banner and just shoot me.
Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor: "Yay, now I am on foot or have once less HS Slot and can not pull off sweeping advances". I have also never seen anyone do that around here.

The bottom line is that the Space Wolves must be shot to death unless you have MCs or some other CC star. Other meq lists are stuck shooting them to death because they can't hang in CC and most meq lists don't have the firepower to shoot the Space Wolves to death, either. Space Wolves are ironically much better against other meq lists than Xenos, who where just going to shoot anyway.

Martel732 wrote:
The bottom line is that the Space Wolves must be shot to death unless you have MCs or some other CC star. Other meq lists are stuck shooting them to death because they can't hang in CC and most meq lists don't have the firepower to shoot the Space Wolves to death, either. Space Wolves are ironically much better against other meq lists than Xenos, who where just going to shoot anyway.

Actualy I think a Crusader Squad could easly take down a Grey Hunter Pack if the Black Templar Player was smart about it. You load up on Nyophites with Shotguns and Power Swords and then unload out of the LRC letting loose with 15 S4 and one Flamer. If the Grey Hunters poped thier Banner you just don't get our of the Land Raider untill next turn. Once the Assualt happens there will be 6 AP3 Attacks going off to the Grey Hunter's 3 and/or 1d6+2 MotW attacks of with 1 or 2 may be Rending. There should also be a lot less Grey Hunters thanks to the LRC.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The bottom line is that the Space Wolves must be shot to death unless you have MCs or some other CC star. Other meq lists are stuck shooting them to death because they can't hang in CC and most meq lists don't have the firepower to shoot the Space Wolves to death, either. Space Wolves are ironically much better against other meq lists than Xenos, who where just going to shoot anyway.

Actualy I think a Crusader Squad could easly take down a Grey Hunter Pack if the Black Templar Player was smart about it. You load up on Nyophites with Shotguns and Power Swords and then unload out of the LRC letting loose with 15 S4 and one Flamer. If the Grey Hunters poped thier Banner you just don't get our of the Land Raider untill next turn. Once the Assualt happens there will be 6 AP3 Attacks going off to the Grey Hunter's 3 and/or 1d6+2 MotW attacks of with 1 or 2 may be Rending. There should also be a lot less Grey Hunters thanks to the LRC.

So it's 10 Crusaders, 5 Scouts and a Land Raider against 10 Grey Hunters? Of bloody course they're going to win, they're more than twice the points.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You can shoot me at 24" and still be as good as me in CC. See where the problem lies? Then there's the whole Wolf Standard/Terminator Wolf Guard combo that lets you tank wounds on a rerollable 2+ armour save once per game in combat.

Plus, if I charge you, you most likely get as many attacks as me AND Overwatch with Bolters. If you charge me, I get overwatch with Pistols and one less attack than you.

The 24" inch range is great, but you can also put out 150% my rate of fire at 12" and double my Attacks in an Assualt.
Wolf Standard: This why I said it depends on the who got the chage. You also have the coice of not Assualting me when I pop the Banner and just shoot me.
Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor: "Yay, now I am on foot or have once less HS Slot and can not pull off sweeping advances". I have also never seen anyone do that around here.

*Claims I can put out more firepower (which requires me to be on foot) and then goes on to complain that Wolf Guards mean he has to be on foot.*

I put out the same shooting OR the same melee (but not both at the same time) for 1PPM less than you do. When you start adding in Neophytes without compensating the Grey Hunters it's no longer even points levels and as such pointless.

Do they still win against 20 grey hunters Anpu?

Lets see 10 Crusaders with 10 Neophytes [no upgrades] = 245 points
20 Grey Hunters [No upgrades] = 300 points
20 Tactical Marines [No upgrades] = 280 points
20 Blood Angels Assault Squad [No upgrades] = 380 with or without jump packs
20 Dark Angels Tactical Marines [No upgrades] = 280 points

So for the numbers Black Templars get more models.

Adding Characters and Transports [The Rhino or Drop Pod]
Crusaders: Adds a Special Weapon
Grey Hunter: Cost a Special Weapon and an Elite Slot
>With a Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor loose one model and the use of the Rhino
Space Marines: Adds a Special Weapon
Blood Angels: Adds a Special Weapon
Dark Angels: Adds a Special Weapon

Adding Characters and Transports [The Land Raider Crusader]
Crusaders: Adds a Special Weapon and up to 6 more Bodies
Grey Hunter: Adds a Special Weapon at the cost of an Elite Slot and a HS Slot
Space Marines: Adds a Special Weapon and a HS choice
Blood Angels: Adds a Special Weapon and a choice of a Land Raider, cheaper if you pull the Jump Packs off the Assault Squad.
Dark Angels: Adds a Special Weapon and a HS choice

To me it looks like Crusaders have the better options.

Black Templars also have more Assault Choices in the Troop slot
Black Templars: Crusader Squads, Scouts
Space Wolves: Grey Hunters
Space Marines: Squads, Scouts
Blood Angels: Assault Squads, Scouts
Dark Angels: Scouts

The point I am trying to make, is it looks like one of the complaints is that Black Templars have lost their Close Assault Ability. When you have to compare your Crusader Squads to Grey Hunters and Grey Knights to show that they have “Lost” Their Assault ability, maybe they have not.

You're ignoring Bloodclaws and Wolf Guard in the Troops slot for Space Wolves. And of course the Crusader Squad gets more models; half of them are Scouts with 4+ armour and WS/BS 3. Further, it's not like you can cram those ten Neophytes into a Drop Pod or Rhino, so you're leaving out that part too.

In the case of the Rhino or Drop Pod you're getting a squad that can shoot as well as the Tactical Squads and fight as well as the Crusaders/Assault Marines. You're completely ignoring that it doesn't matter whether you give up more or not when you end up in a better spot anyway.

 paulson games wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

Want a terminator command squad? Take Dark Angels allies.

So to get a more Templar themed army play Dark Angels? got it.

Vanilla marines could field terminator command squads back in 4th; the only edition we could. I think they have been reserved for the DAs these days, and would have been cut from your codex even if you got a stand alone one. That is of course speculation on my part.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:
Many Templar players are under the impression that they're just meant to be another assault army. This is only half true...

There are four main CC oriented loyal SM armies:
Space wolves: a berserker type army (focused on number of attacks and brute force, and wolfs lol)
Grey knights: the elite army. (a well-equipped strike force that relies on quality troops that outclass everyone else)
Blood Angels: the speed force. (Focused on deep strike and fast vehicles to get to the enemy quickly)
And. The Black Templars: the horde army (focused on big blobs of troops that are more numerous but not as skilled as other chapters)

Black Templars, unfortunately, are kind of an oxymoron. They're an elite army that's trying to act like a hoard. Their rules and fluff have reflected this. The fact that they were the first chapter to use the LRC (a land raider that focuses on large model count) is an example. However, most players have forgotten this fact since they were overpriced due to their outdated codex. There's a reason black Templars weren't number one in 4th, 5th, or 6th edition. They never have excelled at anything. They try to juggle being good at assault while still being decent at shooting, while trying to be an elite hoard of large units running up the board. It just doesn't work, because they have no specialty and their very nature won't allow for anything else. You can try Land raider spam, but that's about it.

This is why I think BTs are never going to be competitive army. They have an interesting premise and the idea of space crusaders is really cool, but it just doesn't make for competitive rules.

So, to answer the OPs question of how I think BTs turned out in this edition... I say that BTs are the same a they have always been and always will be, a lower tier army with a cool theme.

Grey Knights are an super elite army. Their weakness is the low model count. They rely on excellent shooting to thin down the enemy and finish off what ever makes it to them in close combat. I don't consider them an assault oriented army in this regard.

Grey Wolves are also an excellent shooty army and excel as a counter assault army.

Blood Angels are a true assault assault army focused on getting to the enemy lines as fast as possible and hitting hard. They use to have the tools for this with fast rhinos and decent of the angels. But since you can no longer assault out of unmoved vehicles allong with the other assault nerfs they have been suffering pretty hard.

Black Templar are elite as any SM. Their fluff was they they never adhered to the Codex Astarte and their chapter numbers exceeded the thousand max making them the largest SM force if they ever gathered together. They were the spiritual successor to the crusading legions of old. This translated game-play wise with large crusader blob squads of marines foot slogging to the enemy and getting really mad while doing it. In 4th edition, they excelled as a foot hoard that moved fast across the board due to Zeal. With servitors that any chaplain could take they had a possibility of moving extra 9" in the enemy's shooting phase. If they made it to a enemy unit with Zeal, they were locked in combat and the party started. It was good fluff and what interested me personally to play the game. Playing a foot hoard is suicide now since they have lost all the tools that made them excel at it. Zeal, Vows, and Fearless in Close Combat and assault has been nerfed badly.

If you want to play Black Templars for the fluff, then by all means. GW hasn't completely destroyed all the past fluff yet. Give them some time though.

If you want to play Black Templars and be competitive, then you're better off fielding Black Ultramarines / WhiteScars / Iron hands. They have Tools that actually work.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You're ignoring Bloodclaws and Wolf Guard in the Troops slot for Space Wolves. And of course the Crusader Squad gets more models; half of them are Scouts with 4+ armour and WS/BS 3. Further, it's not like you can cram those ten Neophytes into a Drop Pod or Rhino, so you're leaving out that part too.

In the case of the Rhino or Drop Pod you're getting a squad that can shoot as well as the Tactical Squads and fight as well as the Crusaders/Assault Marines. You're completely ignoring that it doesn't matter whether you give up more or not when you end up in a better spot anyway.

Ok let’s look at Blood Claws vs. Crusaders:
15 Blood Claws no upgrades: 225 points
15 Crusaders no upgrades [10 Crusaders and 5 Neophytes]: 190 points
20 Crusaders no upgrades [10 Crusaders and 10 Neophytes]: 240 points

Blood Claws do have more than one issue:
Head Strong: I get with in 6” I MUST Assault and forgo Shooting, unless there is a Character in Charge.
WS3: Any choice other than a Wolf Priest makes them a second class unit. At least with a Wolf Priest your get the re-rolls. However one thing to remember it that WS4 hits Blood Claws on a 3+. This takes their base cost for an effective unit from 225 to 325.

Wolf Guard as Troops: Requires Logan at 275 points. As far as Terminators as Troops that is another issue completely.
As for the WS3 4+ Save, Well Blood Claws are WS3 3+ Save for 1 point more than a Crusader.

Neophytes:
In a Drop Pod or Rhino: Is 155 points with a 5/5 mix, that is cheaper compared to a naked Grey Hunter Pack in a Drop Pod or Rhino [185]
Or if you are going to pod your Crusaders in a pod or Rhino for 175, still cheaper than Grey Hunters.

In my Experience with how I run my Grey Hunters in a pod, the Wolf Guard Pack leader has never been better, I usually am giving up one Plasma Gun for a one Shot Combi-Plasma. and with the ATSKNF I do not need the LD9 that bad.

What, a squad of 5 Marines and 5 Scouts is cheaper than a squad of 10 Marines? I'm shocked!

You're paying 1 PPM for counter-attack and a Bolter. Yes, Crusaders are cheaper, but not by enough to offset the power difference.