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Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
They have flexibility. They are not great in melee

And that is the core of the issue... they should be great in melee, at the cost of flexibility compared to vanilla Marines. A proper, balanced, up-to-date BT list should be able to play melee heavy - effectively - and thus reflect their fluff. It shouldn't be too much to ask for, but as Walrus said all along, it was too much to expect from GW when they got rolled.

People can point out and say how their 4th ed codex was weak/outdated and they're now stronger and more "in line" with the 6th ed meta, etc, etc... but at what cost? At the cost of character, which is more the pitty and what makes their merge with vanilla Marines the step back we all feared it would be. People who collect Templars generally do so because of their fluff, look, character... not their competitiveness compared to other flavoured Marines.

 Anfauglir wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
They have flexibility. They are not great in melee

And that is the core of the issue... they should be great in melee, at the cost of flexibility compared to vanilla Marines. A proper, balanced, up-to-date BT list should be able to play melee heavy - effectively - and thus reflect their fluff. It shouldn't be too much to ask for, but as Walrus said all along, it was too much to expect from GW when they got rolled.

People can point out and say how their 4th ed codex was weak/outdated and they're now stronger and more "in line" with the 6th ed meta, etc, etc... but at what cost? At the cost of character, which is more the pitty and what makes their merge with vanilla Marines the step back we all feared it would be. People who collect Templars generally do so because of their fluff, look, character... not their competitiveness compared to other flavoured Marines.

Spot on. If I wanted to play Ultramarines, I would have.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[

In 4th, Templars could be ran as a working melee Codex, it's just that in 5th and, even more so, 6th edition the things that made the old Codex work either got changed or FAQ'd. The Codex didn't age very well, causing people to spam whatever worked. That doesn't make the Codex one that's supposed to be a shooting army. All the special rules in the 4th edition Codex either buffs melee somehow (better cover, scout moves, Preferred Enemy/Rage, +1S in close combat, Righteous Zeal) or is actually detrimental to shooting (reduced Ld target priority).

But 4th was skimer land from what I have been told . A melee army would be hiting them on +6 doing nothing , you would also have to deal with genestealers with old type rending and I think they had frags back then . It would be stupid to run BT in 4th as a melee army.


Also you can do good melee with them now . Take some bikers and a biker chapter master with TH/ES ally in some WS to spread around scout and hit and run keeping the WS characters and techmarines in BT units and BT characters in WS biker squads and you have good melee characters and access to gravitons. It is like playing shoty and melee at the same time .

Makumba wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
[

In 4th, Templars could be ran as a working melee Codex, it's just that in 5th and, even more so, 6th edition the things that made the old Codex work either got changed or FAQ'd. The Codex didn't age very well, causing people to spam whatever worked. That doesn't make the Codex one that's supposed to be a shooting army. All the special rules in the 4th edition Codex either buffs melee somehow (better cover, scout moves, Preferred Enemy/Rage, +1S in close combat, Righteous Zeal) or is actually detrimental to shooting (reduced Ld target priority).

But 4th was skimer land from what I have been told . A melee army would be hiting them on +6 doing nothing , you would also have to deal with genestealers with old type rending and I think they had frags back then . It would be stupid to run BT in 4th as a melee army.

Templars was an early-4th Codex, Eldar didn't roll around to boss everyone around until later in the edition.

Templars was an early-4th Codex, Eldar didn't roll around to boss everyone around until later in the edition.

Didn't the pre craftworld eldar run star cannons that shot 3 or 4 times , those armies were killing marines in 3ed and skimer rules were the same through whole 4th.

Makumba wrote:

Templars was an early-4th Codex, Eldar didn't roll around to boss everyone around until later in the edition.

Didn't the pre craftworld eldar run star cannons that shot 3 or 4 times , those armies were killing marines in 3ed and skimer rules were the same through whole 4th.

I'm not sure what the differences between 3.5 Eldar and 4th Eldar were, but seeing as Trifalcon didn't become a thing until after the 4th edition Codex I'd imagine it had something to do with the Holo-fields in the 4th edition book interacting with the rules for SMF, meaning you had a 1/36 chance per damaging shot to kill an Eldar skimmer. As I said, though, I'm not sure how Holo-fields worked in the 3.5 Codex.

I think there are 2 common fallacies being bandied about as well in here that go along way towards the dislike of the new book. I am not here to start a fight or call out players as being wrong, only give my observations as someone with no investment or sentimentality towards the army.

1) You should not be gauging the Templars strength relative to the Scars, or the Hands or the Ultramarines. You should be rating them to the older book. White Scar tactics are likely better than the Templar tactics, but then they were also better than the actual Templar book. This is because Bikers are a stronger base than melee-MEQs and always have been. If Templars remained a separate book, you'd still have just as much justification to jump Chapters because it is working along a concept that 6th has absolutely nuked into irrelevance.
Yes, Biker-lists are stronger than footblob-lists. A White Scar biker is better than a Templar Biker. However this would be true regardless of the Chapter Tactics unless Templars received cheaper Bikes, or *massive* price cuts to their infantry. And then we'd be stuck in a land of 'must take at least 10 models before you get guns' or 'all special weapons are twice as expensive' because otherwise, you'd just see cheaper Crusaders toting Plasma Guns and forming the same gunlines, except using cheaper bodies.
The problem is that a MEQ is a slow, expensive model not at all suited to combat in an edition that actively punishes the attempt. This was true when you had your own book, and would remain true unless GW redefined what it means to be a Crusader.

2) I do not believe your melee is any worse than it was before. You had expensive dudes with Rage before, and now you have cheaper dudes with free Sergeants and Grenades. The net result is a similar weight of dice being thrown down, except these are not reliant on a charge and remain far stronger when off the charge.
You had Righteous Zeal for an uncontrollable movement which ruined any chance of holding objectives. Now, you have a much more consistent, more reliable speed boost from Crusader.
Before you had Crusaders, now you can add Redeemers and Stormravens to the tally. Before you had FC Clawminators, now you have 25pt Veterans with Artificer Armour and Power Weapons. You have usable Assault Marines, new Vanguard, an improved Chapter Master and in a pinch, even Bikes.

As said before you'd have a stronger argument for stating that they made no effort to make assault work as the basis for a list. However it is just as prevalent as it was before, you just have a massively-increased range of options to do so. It is the fault of the Edition that these options are largely inferior to shooting.

Makumba wrote:
Also you can do good melee with them now . Take some bikers and a biker chapter master with TH/ES ally in some WS to spread around scout and hit and run keeping the WS characters and techmarines in BT units and BT characters in WS biker squads and you have good melee characters and access to gravitons. It is like playing shoty and melee at the same time.

So... basically your solution is to play White Scars painted black.

His solution is that if you want your army to be defined by winning in combat, you should take units that might actually reach it. I know the iconic image is a wave of black power armour rushing across the field and storming the trenches. But in a world of Heldrakes throwing AP3 about like confetti, Riptides spewing ordnance and jetting away from reprisal, or daemons rushing into you with silly amounts of Rending attacks, what would a Crusader need to be to work?

You'd have to drop the cost to 10-11pts as a baseline. But then we have 10-11pt Marines who are still perfectly capable of shooting. So you impose limits that you need 10 models per special weapon, or those weapons cost twice as much, or you reduce the unit to BS3. Because otherwise you'd just spawn a cheap gunline.
Except that's not a Crusader, because why is a Crusader BS3 or inherently less valuable than a Tactical? If you make them faster, why do they move faster for any reason other than trying to make your vision work?

Infantry-models that pay significant points for BS4 and a Bolter are not a good basis for running melee hordes, and never will be unless you start drastically redefining what the unit is or why it can do certain things. Any attempt to make them cheaper simply allows for larger number of guns. Any attempt to deliberately inhibit shooting means they are now weaker than other Chapters. Any attempt to introduce super-powers or take shortcuts to improve melee, goes the other way and makes them arbitrarily better than other Chapters.

None of this is the fault of the Codex, nor the dedicated one before that. It is a problem that is consistent across the whole of 6th Edition.

I would like to run an army of Ork walkers using the Dread Mob list, except this is another example of slow melee being kicked in the teeth. I would like Kroot to be a melee unit again, but the current rules makes the sniper route an obviously superior option. I would like to run Chaos Power Armour and frolic with Berzerkers and Possessed, but that is simply not going to happen.
Slow power-armoured melee is a losing proposition and do not blame your new Codex for causing that. Black Tide died during 5th Edition, 6th Edition roughed the corpse up a bit and set it on fire, and the new Codex is simply burying it in favour of an army that actually works.

For me, things are about the same as they were in 5th and 6th with the old codex, but I pretty much gave up on my Templars once 5th hit. I'll run triple LRCs and play for the lols, which is about where I am now. We have some more shooting options and I don't think we lost anything that worked terribly well, so I suppose I'd have to say things got better. That said I still think we went from mediocre to mediocre and, eh, I'm tempted to set aside the small part of my BT army that I'm really happy with the painting on, and just Angry Marine the rest of it.

They are Space Marines you can paint your whole army as Templar and run them as any chapter you want. The fluff could be they spent forever fighting along side X chapter or whatever fluff story you want to make up.

I like Space Marines b/c as long as you use WYSIWUG they are very versatile in how and what you use them as.

I am of the opinion that BT just got squated with the release of the 6th Space Marine codex. I bought into BT because I wanted a SM army that was melee based, I loved the zealotry, the gothic style, the colors, everything about them really. They quickly became my second favorite army behind Tyranids and I loved playing them in 5th and into 6th with the old codex. I played them as they were ment to be played, with a mix of foot slogging melee squads and a hammer of a LRC with TH/SH Termies lead by a Chaplin. I was pure assault, all the way, every time, even well into 6th edition and through an escalation league my FLGS ran. Then the new codex came out, I looked over the codex and was disappointed, I played it for about a month and just didn't like what had happened to my BT. The worst part of all of it to me was knowing that the potential for the army was gone, the hope that some day I could once again play my assault based marines and get new toys like everyone else was gone. I got rolled into a codex and people told me I should be happy, cause I got access to ALL of the shooty I could handle! Yeah! I could be more competitive and that is what I wanted right? Well...no...if I wanted to be competitive I wouldn't have been playing BT in 5th and into the beginning of 6th. What I can play now is black Ultramarines with worthless chapter tacitcs. In the end I gave my 6th codex away to a kid who had just started Space Marines at the end of 5th and couldn't afford the new codex. I have my BT sitting around gathering dust as I plan to get around to selling them or trading them for something else...

TL;DR version, The loss of potential has destroyed the army. Never again will they be their own army and will just be another color of Space Marine.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

TL;DR version, The loss of potential has destroyed the army. Never again will they be their own army and will just be another color of Space Marine.

Which is how they were in 2nd edition anyway.

Because they didn't exist in 2nd edition?

The Templars changes have simply taken their identity. Who cares if they are stronger or weaker in an ever changing world of GW's turnover rules?

They lost their soul, and thus the reason to even play them.

I was pretty disappointed with some of the changes to the Templars. Crusader I think is slightly better than Righteous Zeal but only marginally so. IMO the major hit to Templars came from the change to consolidation rules and loss of fearless. The extra movement from consolidation is what kept them from being torn apart by ranged combat, and allowed you to butcher multiple units in cc. They also had an excellent and under-utilized loophole with their bikers that made for an awesome deathstar unit with a boatload of power weapon attacks (no longer an option). Their hold over smoke grenades also made it possible to reliably get your Rhinos across the table, which is much less likely in the current edition. If you want to have a shot at getting into cc you need to use landraiders or stormravens now and that's still a gamble.

At the time of their release the extra attack from default double armed in cc made them really shine, their techmarine and assault terminators were icing on the cake but both of those are gone now. Spacewolves and Blood Angels have far more effective cc units, Space wolves are better on the charge and equally as good on the counter charge, Templars are a step above other vanilla marines but they are still behind both SW & BA. Which is further weakened by the current editions love for shooting.


They picked up a lot of new toys being included in codex space marine but I do feel that their chapter tactics are a bit lacking compared to the other options. I do think being able to skip the emperor's champion is nice. I've never had much luck with him and he's largely been a waste of points I'd rather put into something else. (Love the fluff behind the EC but he's never been a good use of points)

I think they play quite a bit differently then they used to and they lose a lot of the play style that helped make them distinct. IMO Crusader squads are pretty reflective of how Templars are organized but unfortunately that doesn't offer anything unique that mixes in well compared to how other chapters interact with their armies as a whole. Putting a bunch of cheap initiate/neophyte bodies on the table just doesn't have much weight as a stand alone tactic.

I think they are still playable as they have access to the same marine arsenal now, but mechanically they don't offer anything unique and most other chapters have better chapter tactic benefits. As there's no solid hook I think they feel a bit too much like all the other marines. I'll likely continue to do as I was under previous editions playing the rules of space wolves or white scars depending on how I want to build a list and simply use Templar models. They still look great on the table but their rules are a bit meh

This is what I have been hearing:
I lost my Close Combat Army: You now have Combat Squads, Honor Guard, Vanguard Vets, Crusader Squads, Scout Squads, Assault Terminators, Assault Squads and Assault Centurions.

I lost my Special Rule that makes us great in Close Combat: Have you read Crusader, even Eldar are going to fear loosing you in an Assault and you can’t. All of your Characters Get rerolls to hit and Rending. Space Wolves have to pay for that and most of the models that can’t be involved in challenges. Yes that Rending Power Maul Sucks really sucks vs. MCs.

I lost my Really Cool Special Characters:
>High Marshal Hclbrccht: Mastercrafted 5-7 Rending Attack on the Charge with a 4 wound model and once a battle army wide Hated and Fleet, I am sorry this is such a bad thing especially when mixed with a Furious Charge.
>Chaplain Grimaldns: A 3 Wound Model with a 4++ Save and Regenerates while giving everything near him Zealot. Lets not forget about the 4 Mastercrafted S6 Rending Attacks.
>Emperor’s Champion: Lets not forget he has a choice of 3 Mastercrafted to hit S6 Rending Attacks or 3 Mastercrafted to his S4 Rending Attacks that can cause Instant Death.

Your units:
>Crusader Squads: You can pull off a Hidden Power Axes or Power Fist that are immune to challenges, plus Meat-Shields and everyone can take a Bolt Pistol and a Chain Sword, all of that loaded into a AV14 Vehicle with an Assault Ramp. There is nothing Assault orientated there, is there?
>Close Combat Scout Squads in Land Speeder Storms: Assaulting out of an Open to Vehicle, I guess you can’t do that, wait you can.
>Vanguard Veteran Squads/Assault Squads: Yes that Sergeant with his Mastercrafted Rending Power Sword or Mastercrafted Rending Lighting Claw.

How more Assault orientated Marines do you have.

As a Space Wolf Player I look at you and am so glad I have Counter Attack because I am Pure Shooty Army compared to you at times.

 Anpu42 wrote:


I lost my Really Cool Special Characters:
[b]>Chaplain Grimaldns: A 3 Wound Model with a 4++ Save and Regenerates while giving everything near him Zealot. Lets not forget about the 4 Mastercrafted S6 Rending Attacks.

It will not die regeneration is not as good as his previous ability as it requires the model have at least one remaining wound. You can wipe the model in a single round and regeneration will not come into effect where as the previous version could be near impossible to kill as it could repeatedly be used to prevent the last wound. Zealot is reflective of the standard chaplain abilities as is the +2Str from the Crozius although his has the benefit of being master crafted.

I'm not seeing where he gets rending from, source?

 Anpu42 wrote:

>Emperor’s Champion: Lets not forget he has a choice of 3 Mastercrafted to hit S6 Rending Attacks or 3 Mastercrafted to his S4 Rending Attacks that can cause Instant Death.

Those options only apply in challenges, whereas the previous Emperor's champion was at Str 6 all the time.

 Anpu42 wrote:


Your units:
>Crusader Squads: You can pull off a Hidden Power Axes or Power Fist that are immune to challenges, plus Meat-Shields and everyone can take a Bolt Pistol and a Chain Sword, all of that loaded into a AV14 Vehicle with an Assault Ramp. There is nothing Assault orientated there, is there?

Sure it's assault themed, but crossing the field it's nowhere near as survivable as it was in the previous edition (old BT smoke launchers) Large point investment to ensure the crusader squad has a moderate chance. Was a much more viable choice for the heavy hitting Terminator HQ/Command squad, but that's no longer an option.

 Anpu42 wrote:


>Close Combat Scout Squads in Land Speeder Storms: Assaulting out of an Open to Vehicle, I guess you can’t do that, wait you can.
>Vanguard Veteran Squads/Assault Squads: Yes that Sergeant with his Mastercrafted Rending Power Sword or Mastercrafted Rending Lighting Claw.

How are these specific to Templars? They are accessible to pretty much everyone in codex space marine. Sure it's cc focused but it's not Templar centric.



Templars lost their furious charge assault terminators which was their most killy unit. Not saying they can't front an assault focused army but it has changed a lot from what it previously was. Their special characters have been downgraded a bit, landraiders lost blessed hull which was usefull (and very fluffy). Their best assault unit was removed outright and with the exception of the crusader squad their remaining assault units and options are exactly the same as every other chapter. All of the sacred relics and holy items are gone from their war gear options. (again very fluffy) They lost their dark chocolate flavor in order to gain access to all the shared vanilla entries. IMO not worth it.



.

No need for this bit. Thanks.
Reds8n


Seriously.

Rending and re-rolls in challenges?

Going to the same smoke launcher rules as everyone else, rather than leftover 4th edition rules?

Reliable units, rather than ones likely to run off?

Access to units that actually fit in the current meta, rather than gaining a bunch of rules completely different to everyone else in the game in order to support a playstyle obsolete an edition ago?

Want a terminator command squad? Take Dark Angels allies. An Interrogator Chaplain in terminator armour will allow you to take a Deathwing Command Squad. To be frank they're not really worth it, but it is an option. Give that Chaplain a power field generator and he can even give a fairly large Crusader squad a decent save against AP2 ranged weapons. If you're relying on non-power weapon attacks the 4+ invulnerable save you give the enemy probably won't matter.

 Anpu42 wrote:
This is what I have been hearing:
I lost my Close Combat Army: You now have Combat Squads, Honor Guard, Vanguard Vets, Crusader Squads, Scout Squads, Assault Terminators, Assault Squads and Assault Centurions.

Combat Squads on Tactical Marines, yes. Not on Crusaders. Assault Squads, Assault Centurions, and Vanguard Veterans are sorry excuses for melee units, and Crusader Squads aren't exactly stellar (and, for the record, your Grey Hunters are still vastly superior, despite being one edition behind).

 Anpu42 wrote:
This is what I have been hearing:
I lost my Special Rule that makes us great in Close Combat: Have you read Crusader, even Eldar are going to fear loosing you in an Assault and you can’t. All of your Characters Get rerolls to hit and Rending. Space Wolves have to pay for that and most of the models that can’t be involved in challenges. Yes that Rending Power Maul Sucks really sucks vs. MCs.

And this is where I realize you haven't actually read the rules you're commenting on. Rerolls to hit and rending IN CHALLENGES. So yes, that Rending Power Maul sucks against MCs, because it means you're going up with one MEQ Sergeant against an MC.

Crusader would be nice if there'd actually be some sort of way to get into close combat reliably against Eldar in the first place, and if it didn't increase the odds of wiping a unit on the charge massively (which is bad).

 Anpu42 wrote:

I lost my Really Cool Special Characters:
>High Marshal Hclbrccht: Mastercrafted 5-7 Rending Attack on the Charge with a 4 wound model and once a battle army wide Hated and Fleet, I am sorry this is such a bad thing especially when mixed with a Furious Charge.
>Chaplain Grimaldns: A 3 Wound Model with a 4++ Save and Regenerates while giving everything near him Zealot. Lets not forget about the 4 Mastercrafted S6 Rending Attacks.
>Emperor’s Champion: Lets not forget he has a choice of 3 Mastercrafted to hit S6 Rending Attacks or 3 Mastercrafted to his S4 Rending Attacks that can cause Instant Death.

Helbrecht is S4 AP3. He used to get the +D3 attacks in the first turn of combat, regardless of who charged him, and it'd stack with charges. "Old" Helbrecht in 6th edition had 7-10 attacks on the charge and had Bionics for a 6++ FNP. I'm not saying the special rules are bad, but he lost a bit of his already questionable melee prowess to gain something that used to be our Chapter Tactics (and for only one turn to boot). Would you like it if you had to take Logan to get Counter-Attack?

Grimaldus is 185 points for a W3 3+/4++ model. I'm not going to say anything else than that. He's ridiculously overcosted.

The Emperor's Champion is AP2 base, so the Rending in Challenges is mostly moot. He's 140 points for a W2 HQ that strikes at S4 unless you want him to be unwieldy and lose an attack (because the S6 stance is 2-handed). He also only gets S6 or ID on rolls of 6 in Challenges. He's utter rubbish and the fact that you're trying to defend him as a useful unit lessens my opinion of you. Add 25 points and you get a Captain with Artificier Armour and the Burning Blade.

 Anpu42 wrote:

[b]Your units:
>Crusader Squads: You can pull off a Hidden Power Axes or Power Fist that are immune to challenges, plus Meat-Shields and everyone can take a Bolt Pistol and a Chain Sword, all of that loaded into a AV14 Vehicle with an Assault Ramp. There is nothing Assault orientated there, is there?
>Close Combat Scout Squads in Land Speeder Storms: Assaulting out of an Open to Vehicle, I guess you can’t do that, wait you can.
>Vanguard Veteran Squads/Assault Squads: Yes that Sergeant with his Mastercrafted Rending Power Sword or Mastercrafted Rending Lighting Claw.

How more Assault orientated Marines do you have.

As a Space Wolf Player I look at you and am so glad I have Counter Attack because I am Pure Shooty Army compared to you at times.

25 points for a Power Fist on an A1 model is folly. Complete and utter folly. The Axe is better, true. It's not a viable assault army if the only reliable way you have into CC is a Land Raider. It's the same issue plaguing World Eaters players (well, that and Berzerkers are junk). 10 Marines, 5 Scouts, Power Axe and Sergeant with Lightning Claw/PW in an LRC is 480 (!!) points.

Yes, you can take 5 Scouts in a LSS and hope to assault with them. A 10/10/10 2HP Open-topped vehicle is literally the most flimsy vehicle possible in the game. What are you going to melee to death with 5 Scouts?

Assault Squads are rubbish, there's a reason they're not fielded competetively outside of triple-flamer Pods. Vanguards are Assault Squads on steroids, but still not that good. Again, it's Rending IN CHALLENGES, and can't be Master-Crafted unless you're playing Salamanders.

As a Black Templars player, I'd gladly give up Assault Centurions, Vanguard Veterans, Assault Marines and even Assault Terminators for Grey Hunters. They're so much better than every other MEQ Troops Choice (excluding Grey Knight variants) that it's silly.

Mozzamanx wrote:
You'd have to drop the cost to 10-11pts as a baseline. But then we have 10-11pt Marines who are still perfectly capable of shooting. So you impose limits that you need 10 models per special weapon, or those weapons cost twice as much, or you reduce the unit to BS3. Because otherwise you'd just spawn a cheap gunline.
Except that's not a Crusader, because why is a Crusader BS3 or inherently less valuable than a Tactical? If you make them faster, why do they move faster for any reason other than trying to make your vision work?

They move faster for the same reason they did in the last Codex: They're insane. Sisters of Battle gain Invulnerable Saves from their belief in the Emperor (and Templars used to have that ability too), why couldn't the Templars be faster because they're the only Chapter to worship the Emperor as a God?

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:


Rending and re-rolls in challenges?

"I deny your challenge." Whoops, looks like that Chapter Tactic isn't going to help you be better at fighting now, sorry about that.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

Want a terminator command squad? Take Dark Angels allies.

So to get a more Templar themed army play Dark Angels? got it.

Just for the record since it's been mentioned several times, Righteous Zeal-ing away from objectives wasn't an issue until the crotch-kicking FAQ in 6th edition that forced you to move the full distance, and even then you could go to ground to circumvent the movement.

As a Black Templars player, I'd gladly give up Assault Centurions, Vanguard Veterans, Assault Marines and even Assault Terminators for Grey Hunters. They're so much better than every other MEQ Troops Choice (excluding Grey Knight variants) that it's silly.

So at this point, it's less 'I don't have assault!" to "I want very competitive assault!"?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

As a Black Templars player, I'd gladly give up Assault Centurions, Vanguard Veterans, Assault Marines and even Assault Terminators for Grey Hunters. They're so much better than every other MEQ Troops Choice (excluding Grey Knight variants) that it's silly.

So at this point, it's less 'I don't have assault!" to "I want very competitive assault!"?

If the units can't pull their own weight they might as well not exist.

Well i was outraged at first when we got rolled in, for 2 reasons: Fear that we would get librarians, and scout company
Loss of crusadersquads
REALLY $HITTY chaptertactics on paper(crusader and adamantium will, reroll to hit and rending in challenges)
But after cca. 20 games i can say that i can ACTUALLY Field templar blobs with 2 landraiders(!!) without charging an arm or leg in points cost, which is really cool, considering that their numbers are approximately 6k marines(possibly even 10k) and ...
Love the new rules for Helbrecht and grimaldus( Helbrecht's crusade of wrath rule is really nice, love the feeling when i assault the enemy gunline with cca 40-50 crusaders and honourguard; brutal rule if timed correctly, and his one use furious charge is WAY more useful than it might seem
on paper.. Altough it pains me we got only four pages of fluff
tl;dr really crappy rules on paper but in reality it is amazing how nasty can it be on table, GJ on codex Cruddace

You'll have to forigve me if I'm cynical and sceptical, but how do you get 40-50 Crusaders, Helbrecht AND Honour Guard across the board intact? Even if it's bare-bones, the Crusaders are 700 points, Helbrecht is another 180 and the Honour Guard is 135 for 5. That's over a thousand points in footslogging marines with no shooting outside of 12".

yeah, not really intact, but i always prefer to drive them the longer course safely(coversaves etc.) rather than full straight to get blown up for easy firstblood and the payload butchered.. Basically i put helbrecht and honourguard in LR redeemer and 16 crusaders(or 15 with chaplain if not using helbrecht) in LRC, and a 20man blob, again through cover. In my area we play with LOTS of terrains, so...

Many Templar players are under the impression that they're just meant to be another assault army. This is only half true...

There are four main CC oriented loyal SM armies:
Space wolves: a berserker type army (focused on number of attacks and brute force, and wolfs lol)
Grey knights: the elite army. (a well-equipped strike force that relies on quality troops that outclass everyone else)
Blood Angels: the speed force. (Focused on deep strike and fast vehicles to get to the enemy quickly)
And. The Black Templars: the horde army (focused on big blobs of troops that are more numerous but not as skilled as other chapters)

Black Templars, unfortunately, are kind of an oxymoron. They're an elite army that's trying to act like a hoard. Their rules and fluff have reflected this. The fact that they were the first chapter to use the LRC (a land raider that focuses on large model count) is an example. However, most players have forgotten this fact since they were overpriced due to their outdated codex. There's a reason black Templars weren't number one in 4th, 5th, or 6th edition. They never have excelled at anything. They try to juggle being good at assault while still being decent at shooting, while trying to be an elite hoard of large units running up the board. It just doesn't work, because they have no specialty and their very nature won't allow for anything else. You can try Land raider spam, but that's about it.

This is why I think BTs are never going to be competitive army. They have an interesting premise and the idea of space crusaders is really cool, but it just doesn't make for competitive rules.

So, to answer the OPs question of how I think BTs turned out in this edition... I say that BTs are the same a they have always been and always will be, a lower tier army with a cool theme.

Grey Knights are a shooting army primarily. They've always been better at shooting than at melee, Force Weapons or not.

Moving on, Templars haven't ever been about "numbers over skill" or about hordes in the fluff. If anything, with the Emperor's Champion and the whole Preferred Enemy deal, they're MORE skilled than an average Marine Chapter in Close Combat. Their two preferred modes of attack are, as per Codex: Black Templars, Drop Pod Assaults or Armoured Spearheads (Assault Ramp Rhino, anyone?), not "rush blindly in hordes at the enemy".

Other than that, I agree to a point. Part of the issue is that the Templars aren't specialized enough, but I disagree that it's due to trying to do shooting just as good. Whirlwinds and Devestators weren't in the 4th edition Codex, and the "Kill Them All!" special rule made Templars take Target Priority Tests at -1Ld, making them worse at shooting than other Marines. The issue is that GW consistently overvalues melee units, and paying for BS4 on a unit that's not going to shoot anything other than pistols is rather silly. Decreasing the BS of Crusaders to 3 for a 2 PPM drop with the option to buy an extra BS for 2 PPM would be a good starting point, and could easily be explained fluff-wise with some Templars being more hot-headed than their brethren.

Templars are every bit as much a melee army as Orks, and no one would argue that Orks aren't a melee army just because they have Lootas and Kannons for long-range support.

"Black Templars place great emphasis on close combat prowess and honour. As such they can often be seen charging into suicidal situations to avenge fallen comrades. These tactics appear reckless, but their effectiveness is undeniable."
-lexicanum
I'd quote codex: black Templars but I don't have it with me at the moment.

You're correct that they don't focus on shooting. But they don't just throw it out the window either. That's my point. They still have BS4 and can carry boltguns unlike dedicated assault units like assault marines and blood claws.

I'd say that though grey knights have shooty builds, they're still meant for assaulting. The only reason shooty builds have emerged is 6th. In 5th, purifiers and paladins were all the rage.

Also, I never said that Templars weren't a close combat army.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:

I'd say that though grey knights have shooty builds, they're still meant for assaulting. The only reason shooty builds have emerged is 6th. In 5th, purifiers and paladins were all the rage.

And what did those two builds have in common? Psycannons. Lots and lots of psycannons. Purifiers aren't an assault unit, they're a shooting unit that can handle themselves in an assault. In short, everything Tactical Marines ought to be but aren't.

 ironhammer2194 wrote:
"Black Templars place great emphasis on close combat prowess and honour. As such they can often be seen charging into suicidal situations to avenge fallen comrades. These tactics appear reckless, but their effectiveness is undeniable."
-lexicanum
I'd quote codex: black Templars but I don't have it with me at the moment.

Once they're already in combat, sure. They don't just form a wave of bodies to get there, though.