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I might point out that 'best' quality Imperial plasmaguns do not overload.

Which makes me wonder why they've been giving the SM plasmaguns with quality ratings lower than 'best' all this time. IG i can understand, but...

When it comes to plasma guns and Space Marines, 3rd eddition used to be more vocal when it comes to weapons capability compared to others. All armies used to have a page or two dedicated to it and the Imperium had theirs in the main rule book. There you learned that plasma gun have no option for automatic fire unlike bolters, had a limit of about 15 shots compared to the 30 or so of the bolter and while the bolter can be reloaded much like a assault rifle (so in about 4 seconds), the plasma guns takes much much longer. You need to unsrew to flask and srew two new ones carefully before you can fire again. So it can take a minute or two to reload it. If you also compare the efficency of bolter and plasma weapons vs lightly armored human size targets like regular guards, dark eldar, eldar guardien, ork boys or tyranid gaunts, you will realise that there is no noticeable increase in efficency from one type to the other on a per shot basis. Bolters are already overkill against most of these targets and their fire and reload rates makes them clearly superior. Against medium armored targets like Scions, some Aspect Warriors or ork nobz, plasma is significantly more efficient on a per shot basis, but looses when it comes to fire rate. in the end, plasma weapon are specialist weapons designed to take out heavily armored infantry like Space Marines, Tau battlesuit, ork meganobz, heavily armored Aspect warriors or light tanks. Having one or two per squad gives you just the extra punch you might need without over specialising it.

Might want to check FFGs GW sanctioned changes to that.

If your talking about re-load times, plasma gun reload times are ridiculously long in DH compared to other guns. Not a minute long, but still long.

It's a bit better in OW and DW, the plasma gun takes longer to reload, but holds 40 to the bolters 28 shots and can be fired in maximal mode. But, true, it's nothing on the Tau half action reload times for pulse weapons.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Problem with that is that the Plasma Gun is superior to the bolter in almost every way against any target you would want to aim a bolter at and some stuff you wouldn't. So if the imperium is so big and capable of such awesome scale of manufacture then why don't all the marines have plasma guns?

Either the Imperium is incapable, or it is unwilling. If it is incapable then the marines would be better off with the Tau who can mass-produce a superior weapon (the Pulse Rifle or Pusle Carbine) in possibly larger numbers than the Imperium can produce Bolters (willing to bet there are more Shas'la Fire Warriors than Space Marines). If it is unwilling then the Imperium is sacrificing the ability of its soldiers for no good reason.

The Tau don't arbitrarily restrict weaponry from their elite forces when the weapon that they are holding back would make those forces more effective at their given task. The Imperium, apparently, does.

It's arguable that the Plasma Gun is flat out "superior" to the bolter because there are things that bolters can be used for that Plasma Guns simply can't. Stealth, for example- a Bolter with Stalker silenced shells is quiet. The specific Stalker-pattern Bolter, when combined with said shells, is generally described as being almost completely silent, and has a longer barrel for better long-distance performance.

Bolters can also use AoE munitions, such as the Heresy-era Tempest and current 40K-era Metal Storm bolts (functionally they're pretty much identical). The main advantage of the Bolter is that you can easily adapt it to numerous roles and/or taskings, just by changing the ammo. Plasma Guns, however, cannot do so. Further, Plasma Guns are not particularly suitable for sustained fire applications, are somewhat volatile, and presumably require much more specific- not necessarily just "more"- maintenance and/or expertise to maintain.

Brother Genericus the generic Space Marine can be taught to maintain his bolter in the field. It's questionable whether Plasma Guns can even be maintained in the field, IMO; if they can, it likely requires more expertise than is likely to be invested into Brother Genericus.

There is also the fact that:

-Imperial manufacturing is done almost entirely by the Adeptus Mechanicus, who are as mentioned far from a monolithic entity
-the Imperium is still beset on all sides by enemies
-the Imperium has had no reprieve from the previous condition for 10,000 years

Consider, for example, Heresy-era Volkite weapons. As a general purpose weapon system, they were far above the Bolter, and generally could be considered better than a Plasma Gun as a general purpose weapon. They were eventually phased out to "special weapon" status as the Great Crusade marched on, due to the rapidly increasing number of Marines necessary to equip thusly, and the difficulty of manufacture and maintenance of Volkite weaponry. And that's with Heresy-era Mars, when the AdMech was arguably at its peak, and which hadn't suffered through the destruction and loss of knowledge and information that the Heresy inflicted upon the Red Planet.

And again, it must be remembered that supply lines in the Imperium are somewhat more fluid than the logistics infrastructure used by the Tau; not only that, but the Tau have access to fairly abundant resources that are, figuratively speaking, in their own backyard. The Imperium is, due to 10,000 of war-footing industrialism, forced to go many dozens, if not hundreds of miles, to get their milk, flour, and eggs- to continue the previous analogy, at least.

 Edreynaline wrote:
haha yer you get the jist though. I feel that the power isn't the problem. at least in fluffy terms they are just old tricky technologies while the tau have managed to master a better, less dangerous way of using them. So now you give that to the space marines and boom they can kill marines really well. The thing about bolters thought is they have a powerful shrapnel effect(in fluff terms) that puts guardsmen down in groups of two, three or more at a time. the plasma just doesn't have that rate of fire. although I suppose a squad of half bolter half plasma would combine that effect.

I would disagree; keep in mind that Tau plasma weapons that are comparable to their Imperial counterparts are also mounted on generally larger platforms that have greater ability to carry cooling systems. For example, in FFG's Deathwatch system, Tau plasma weapons can maintain higher yield with great stability, doing 2D10+9 damage and 8 Penetration, while an Astartes Plasma Gun does 1D10+9 and Pen 8. However, the Astartes Plasma Gun is an infantry-portable weapon, can charge up to 2D10+9 damage, and is probably more economical to supply- due to its portability, it can be carried by a man-sized (or in this instance, Astartes-sized) person.

That's kind of the thing- the Imperium can manufacture small high-yield plasma weapons, that can easily be carried around by a regular Guardsman. I'm somewhat doubtful that the Tau can do so; though I don't think that the Tau particularly care, as their combat doctrine somewhat removes the need to have man-portable heavy weaponry, of which the Plasma Gun, can, realistically, be considered.

Also remember that the Bolter can load specialty armor-piercing rounds, some of which are designed to be and very effective against power-armored targets.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I might point out that 'best' quality Imperial plasmaguns do not overload.

Which makes me wonder why they've been giving the SM plasmaguns with quality ratings lower than 'best' all this time. IG i can understand, but...

Looking at FFG's rules for Deathwatch and Only War, you'll notice that Astartes-pattern Plasma Guns do 1D10+9, Pen 8, and can choose to go to Maximal mode where they become 2D10+9, Pen 10, Overheats. In contrast, the Only War plasma guns are 1D10+7, Pen 6, and Overheats; in the Only War plasma gun's maximal mode, it's 2D10+7, Pen 8, Overheats. So we see that in the rules that could be considered more "fluff accurate" the Marines actually do get better Plasma Guns than their IG counterparts.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
If your talking about re-load times, plasma gun reload times are ridiculously long in DH compared to other guns. Not a minute long, but still long.

This is an excellent point; I'll provide some rough points of comparison:

A typical longarm in most FFG systems (I haven't checked all of them) takes one Action to reload- the Bolter, the Lasgun, the Autogun. Any kind of general-purpose "basic" infantry weapon takes just one Action to reload. A typical Heavy Weapon, such as a Heavy Stubber, Heavy Bolter, Autocannon, Lascannon, Multilasers, or Missile Launcher, will take 1-2 Actions to reload.

A Plasma Gun takes between 4 and 8 Actions to reload- generally 2-4 times as long. It depends a bit on the particular system- DH players actually get the lowest-end Imperial Plasma Guns, with the lowest capacity/damage/penetration and the longest reloads; though I would say that DH reload times are also intended to take into account that not all Acolytes are likely to be grizzled combat veterans of a dozen warzones.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
It's a bit better in OW and DW, the plasma gun takes longer to reload, but holds 40 to the bolters 28 shots and can be fired in maximal mode. But, true, it's nothing on the Tau half action reload times for pulse weapons.

That's true, but the Bolter has a higher RoF ceiling, and will deal more consistent damage to lighter enemies. I once made a 2D10 probability table; generally speaking, you've got a 44% chance to get somewhere between 13 and 18 damage at Pen 5 for an Astartes Boltgun, and that's not considering that Bolters have Tearing so that they can roll three dice and pick the 2 highest results.

Plasma Guns will end up anywhere between 10 and 19 damage, but it'll be a bit all over the place unless you go to Maximal, in which case the real problem you'll face isn't Overheat but actually the Recharge penalty. Bolters can also use Kraken rounds to get Pen 8 and more range, at no penalty.

Whiskey144 wrote:

Looking at FFG's rules for Deathwatch and Only War, you'll notice that Astartes-pattern Plasma Guns do 1D10+9, Pen 8, and can choose to go to Maximal mode where they become 2D10+9, Pen 10, Overheats. In contrast, the Only War plasma guns are 1D10+7, Pen 6, and Overheats; in the Only War plasma gun's maximal mode, it's 2D10+7, Pen 8, Overheats. So we see that in the rules that could be considered more "fluff accurate" the Marines actually do get better Plasma Guns than their IG counterparts.

Check the craftsmanship rules for plasma weapons. They automatically lose overheats at 'best' quality'.

Whiskey144 wrote:
Bolters can also use Kraken rounds to get Pen 8 and more range, at no penalty.

Plasma guns have an ammo that does something similar, you lose Maximal mode, but also lose overheating and increase range and pen. IIRC it has a lower rarity for the ammunition than Kraken rounds do.


And the Tau pulse rifle still spanks both, with the autostabilized trait and the fast reload.

Wow. Fair enough, you are obviously far more well versed in the rules and lore than I. Back to original question though, do you think this means the Tau systems are able to port to power amour or do you think the Marines would keep their personal weapons and perhaps increase the number of plasma weapons available in specific squads to deal with heavier armoured infantry.

As for anti tank weaponry, the possibility of a terminator or Centurion suit wielding crisis suit weaponry and perhaps broadside level kit on a Centurion would be interesting.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Plasma guns have an ammo that does something similar, you lose Maximal mode, but also lose overheating and increase range and pen. IIRC it has a lower rarity for the ammunition than Kraken rounds do.

And the Tau pulse rifle still spanks both, with the autostabilized trait and the fast reload.

I can't quite find the publication that has the specialty Plasma Gun ammunition... is it specific to Only War? Also, I'd argue that the Pulse Rifle isn't actually better- Bolters have the benefit of supreme flexibility due to their widely varied ammunition types.

 Edreynaline wrote:
Wow. Fair enough, you are obviously far more well versed in the rules and lore than I. Back to original question though, do you think this means the Tau systems are able to port to power amour or do you think the Marines would keep their personal weapons and perhaps increase the number of plasma weapons available in specific squads to deal with heavier armoured infantry.

As for anti tank weaponry, the possibility of a terminator or Centurion suit wielding crisis suit weaponry and perhaps broadside level kit on a Centurion would be interesting.

For the most part, I wouldn't see any Marines leveraging Tau armaments unless under extreme duress; for the most part they'll retain their own armaments, and in the particular case of Terminator armor/Centurion warsuits, they'll generally be keeping the armaments that they currently use instead of changing to the Tau equivalents- at present, the Centurions, in TT terms, are armed with relatively comparable weapon systems. Tau infantry armaments are... of limited tactical utility- the Tau do not seem to have any interest in squad-level organic support weapons except for specialty units (like Pathfinders, for example), or as part of a battlesuit team.

Which is actually kind of weird given the emphasis that Tau seem to place on small-unit tactics and the initiative of small unit leaders; having the option to incorporate organic squad-level support weapons actually does a lot for promoting such things- at least, IMO.

The reason they don't have integrated heavy weapons has mostly to do with mobility concerns. That's not such a problem with SMs.

Whiskey144 wrote:

I can't quite find the publication that has the specialty Plasma Gun ammunition... is it specific to Only War? Also, I'd argue that the Pulse Rifle isn't actually better- Bolters have the benefit of supreme flexibility due to their widely varied ammunition types.

It's from Into the Storm. +2 pen, +2 damage, +10 meters range -overheats, - Maximal mode.

By that arguments, shotguns are as good as bolters (since shotguns can be modified into boltguns [albeit it's a BIG no no with the admech]).

As far as Tau squad support weapons, it's because on the TT a rail rifle or two in every platoon would be too much.

Remind of of autoguns in DH1. Despite the fact that lasguns were made to be superior, the autogun had so many options making it superior.

 Edreynaline wrote:
Back to original question though, do you think this means the Tau systems are able to port to power amour...

Well, according to Stars of Inequity, the answer is technically yes. (though this is due to how the game handles integrated weapons, etc.)

What will really melt your mind is there's nothing mechanical RAW to prevent Xenotech from also being Holy. To call this HERESY would be an understatement, but it would still make daemons into a fresh, pine-scented, vapor.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Edreynaline wrote:
Back to original question though, do you think this means the Tau systems are able to port to power amour...

Well, according to Stars of Inequity, the answer is technically yes. (though this is due to how the game handles integrated weapons, etc.)

What will really melt your mind is there's nothing mechanical RAW to prevent Xenotech from also being Holy. To call this HERESY would be an understatement, but it would still make daemons into a fresh, pine-scented, vapor.

Madness! But also great! I'd also wager that while the marines themselves may or may not use Tau guns, I'm sure they wouldn't mind a few extra drones perhaps to soak bullets and carry extra gear/bullets/spare guns for them.

Time to reload the plasma gun? give it to the drone and grab a new one for 1 action. Drone reloads in 4 actions and rinse / repeat if we're totally going down the mass production road. I mean that's how they do it for big games hunters in the old days. give it to the gun caddy guy and have him reload it for you.

 Edreynaline wrote:
Wow. Fair enough, you are obviously far more well versed in the rules and lore than I. Back to original question though, do you think this means the Tau systems are able to port to power amour or do you think the Marines would keep their personal weapons and perhaps increase the number of plasma weapons available in specific squads to deal with heavier armoured infantry.

Burst cannons for anywhere close-in would be fantastic.

Why not? Superior-quality firepower is an important tenet of the Greater Good.

While special ammo is an advantage for the bolter, the Empire can't (or won't) supply it to rank and file marines. WWithout special ammo, pulse rifles are smaller and lighter while providing better range, firepower and reload speed.

LordBlades wrote:
While special ammo is an advantage for the bolter, the Empire can't (or won't) supply it to rank and file marines. WWithout special ammo, pulse rifles are smaller and lighter while providing better range, firepower and reload speed.

They're also easier to maintain and replace when damaged.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
While special ammo is an advantage for the bolter, the Empire can't (or won't) supply it to rank and file marines. WWithout special ammo, pulse rifles are smaller and lighter while providing better range, firepower and reload speed.

They're also easier to maintain and replace when damaged.

Got a source for that?

 Desubot wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
While special ammo is an advantage for the bolter, the Empire can't (or won't) supply it to rank and file marines. WWithout special ammo, pulse rifles are smaller and lighter while providing better range, firepower and reload speed.

They're also easier to maintain and replace when damaged.

Got a source for that?

The CONSTANT praying and maintenance in fluff that bolters require.

Also, since pulse weapons are everywhere in the Tau Empire, and only special humans get bolters, it's obviously easier to produce than a bolter. otherwise, everyone would have a bolter.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
While special ammo is an advantage for the bolter, the Empire can't (or won't) supply it to rank and file marines. WWithout special ammo, pulse rifles are smaller and lighter while providing better range, firepower and reload speed.

They're also easier to maintain and replace when damaged.

Got a source for that?

The CONSTANT praying and maintenance in fluff that bolters require.

Also, since pulse weapons are everywhere in the Tau Empire, and only special humans get bolters, it's obviously easier to produce than a bolter. otherwise, everyone would have a bolter.

So you have no answer. ok .

 Desubot wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
While special ammo is an advantage for the bolter, the Empire can't (or won't) supply it to rank and file marines. WWithout special ammo, pulse rifles are smaller and lighter while providing better range, firepower and reload speed.

They're also easier to maintain and replace when damaged.

Got a source for that?

The CONSTANT praying and maintenance in fluff that bolters require.

Also, since pulse weapons are everywhere in the Tau Empire, and only special humans get bolters, it's obviously easier to produce than a bolter. otherwise, everyone would have a bolter.

So you have no answer. ok .

He did give you an answer, just not the one you asked for. Personally, I don't see how asking for a source is relevant in a 40k-fluff thread, since you cannot use solid statements in fluff OR crunch for anything, given the aproach the universe has to canon (which is to say, "anything is canon").

What EmpNorton wrote seem reasonable, given what I've read on the subject.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

He did give you an answer, just not the one you asked for. Personally, I don't see how asking for a source is relevant in a 40k-fluff thread, since you cannot use solid statements in fluff OR crunch for anything, given the aproach the universe has to canon (which is to say, "anything is canon").

What EmpNorton wrote seem reasonable, given what I've read on the subject.

I wouldn't have an issue if there was some sort of example stating that Tau equipment is "easier" to maintain and repair. but just blatantly stating that "magic" is hardly an answer or any sort of use to any sort of discussion so i called him out on it.
Reasonable is subjective though. i respectfully disagree.

Whiskey144 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
I disagree. As far as high tech equipment goes, the Imperium is either unable or unwilling to supply high-tech gear in sufficient numbers. I'm not talking about IG, but marines. There's around 1.000.000 of them (1000 chapters of 1000 marines) and yet:

The Mechanicum can't/won't supply them all with the newer marks of Power Armor. Terminator Armor supply is even worse. Iron Hands fir example, despite having a goid relationship to the Mechanicum still have less than normal amount of Terminator Armor 10.000 years after Istvaan.

Stuff like Thunderhawks and Land Raiders are often looked at as chapter relics, hinting that replacing them epuld be quite difficult.Tau never serm to look at Mantas the same way.

Marines are the elite, and so they get the best basic equipment the Imperium can provide- power armor and bolters. WRT newer marks of Power Armor, it's entirely likely that there isn't much impetus to supply it because whatever is currently in circulation among the Astartes is still sufficient.

Also, the thing to remember about Istvaan, is that the Dropsite Massacre crippled the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard to the point that they weren't just pushed out of the Heresy because they lacked the manpower to actually fight at the scales involved, but to the point that it was a serious consideration that these Legions would actually go extinct- while there is some evidence to suggest the Iron Hands may have been a slightly above-average strength (statistically speaking) Legion, they also ran straight into the guns of the Traitor forces, suffering heavy losses all the while, and tended to not retreat, thus leading to them being wiped out- oh, and the Iron Hands lost their Primarch at Istvaan V, while Vulkan went missing and Corax is the only one who managed to run away.

It's also to be remembered that the Mechanicus (post-Heresy AdMech is actually an "s" on the end, and not an "m") is by far not a monolithic power bloc, like everything else in the Imperium, and so the issues of supply are one of "it depends"- how close is a Chapter to a Forge World, are they on good terms with that Forge World, are they on good terms with the AdMech at all, do they have their own sufficiently equipped Chapter Forge that they don't ask for anything from the local Forge Worlds; things like that.

Oh, and Terminator armor's should iconography, the Crux Terminatus, supposedly has a fragment of the Emperor's armor shoved in it, so presumably that would actually put a hard limit on how many Terminator suits can actually be produced- assuming that there is some kind of traditional requirement that Terminator armor contain such a fragment, and that the Astartes chapters will generally pass on suits without such.

I'd forgotten that odd bit of trivia. Do you think this trend continued in earnest through all foundings or did it just become apocryphal fact?

 Desubot wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

He did give you an answer, just not the one you asked for. Personally, I don't see how asking for a source is relevant in a 40k-fluff thread, since you cannot use solid statements in fluff OR crunch for anything, given the aproach the universe has to canon (which is to say, "anything is canon").

What EmpNorton wrote seem reasonable, given what I've read on the subject.

I wouldn't have an issue if there was some sort of example stating that Tau equipment is "easier" to maintain and repair. but just blatantly stating that "magic" is hardly an answer or any sort of use to any sort of discussion so i called him out on it.
Reasonable is subjective though. i respectfully disagree.

... is the constant attention that bolters require in fluff merely mindless nonsense Space marines go through?

... do you think that Guardsmen are issued lasguns because no one in the AM has figured out that the bolter is a stronger weapon?

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

He did give you an answer, just not the one you asked for. Personally, I don't see how asking for a source is relevant in a 40k-fluff thread, since you cannot use solid statements in fluff OR crunch for anything, given the aproach the universe has to canon (which is to say, "anything is canon").

What EmpNorton wrote seem reasonable, given what I've read on the subject.

I wouldn't have an issue if there was some sort of example stating that Tau equipment is "easier" to maintain and repair. but just blatantly stating that "magic" is hardly an answer or any sort of use to any sort of discussion so i called him out on it.
Reasonable is subjective though. i respectfully disagree.

... is the constant attention that bolters require in fluff merely mindless nonsense Space marines go through?

... do you think that Guardsmen are issued lasguns because no one in the AM has figured out that the bolter is a stronger weapon?

What is your point we are talking about how Pulse weapons are supposedly easier to maintain and repair.

 Desubot wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:

He did give you an answer, just not the one you asked for. Personally, I don't see how asking for a source is relevant in a 40k-fluff thread, since you cannot use solid statements in fluff OR crunch for anything, given the aproach the universe has to canon (which is to say, "anything is canon").

What EmpNorton wrote seem reasonable, given what I've read on the subject.

I wouldn't have an issue if there was some sort of example stating that Tau equipment is "easier" to maintain and repair. but just blatantly stating that "magic" is hardly an answer or any sort of use to any sort of discussion so i called him out on it.
Reasonable is subjective though. i respectfully disagree.

... is the constant attention that bolters require in fluff merely mindless nonsense Space marines go through?

... do you think that Guardsmen are issued lasguns because no one in the AM has figured out that the bolter is a stronger weapon?

What is your point we are talking about how Pulse weapons are supposedly easier to maintain and repair.

Maintain and REPLACE were my exact words.

"How easy is x to make" obviously sits at the center of how easy it is to replace something. As we've stated, every Fire Warrior carries one of two weapons and it isn't often a pulse carbine. In the IoM, only a handful of elite organizations get bolters. Obviously, the Tau are better at making pulse rifles than the IoM is at making bolters, otherwise their rank and file would have bolters instead of flashlights.

As for maintenance, bolters seem to require a lot of regular work to keep them functional.

I'm unaware of any place indicating Tau need a similar amount of time to keep their pulse rifles operational.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Maintain and REPLACE were my exact words.

"How easy is x to make" obviously sits at the center of how easy it is to replace something. As we've stated, every Fire Warrior carries one of two weapons and it isn't often a pulse carbine. In the IoM, only a handful of elite organizations get bolters. Obviously, the Tau are better at making pulse rifles than the IoM is at making bolters, otherwise their rank and file would have bolters instead of flashlights.

As for maintenance, bolters seem to require a lot of regular work to keep them functional.

I'm unaware of any place indicating Tau need a similar amount of time to keep their pulse rifles operational.

Oh sorry then to replace.

As to IoMs capacity for making bolters. you do realize the scopes we are talking about? Every fire warrior may have a Pulse weapon but How many fire warriors are there? compared to the full grunt of the imperial meat shields.
You give your Standard troop a Basic Renewable weapons because there job isnt to run up and kill all the things. the guardsmen are there to sit hold and fortify objectives till they are told to move to the next one. its why only marines have bolters. because they are the ones that are doing in feet first behind enemy lines to get gak done.

Otherwise if every guardsmen had a bolter, think of the logistics and raw material it would take to produce all that.

Edit: Quote fail
Edit2: As well IF we are talking about Ease of Maintaining and replacing damaged Pulse weapons. do you have some sort of quote of there actual manufacturing practices? turn out and materials consumption? because if all of that is so superior why dont they hand over a butt load of better pulse equipment to the kroot and take over the sector already? they seem like they would be the best with carbine weapons considering they are able to infiltrate into areas and do fantastic hit and run maneuvers.

 Desubot wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Maintain and REPLACE were my exact words.

"How easy is x to make" obviously sits at the center of how easy it is to replace something. As we've stated, every Fire Warrior carries one of two weapons and it isn't often a pulse carbine. In the IoM, only a handful of elite organizations get bolters. Obviously, the Tau are better at making pulse rifles than the IoM is at making bolters, otherwise their rank and file would have bolters instead of flashlights.

As for maintenance, bolters seem to require a lot of regular work to keep them functional.

I'm unaware of any place indicating Tau need a similar amount of time to keep their pulse rifles operational.

Oh sorry then to replace.

As to IoMs capacity for making bolters. you do realize the scopes we are talking about? Every fire warrior may have a Pulse weapon but How many fire warriors are there? compared to the full grunt of the imperial meat shields.
You give your Standard troop a Basic Renewable weapons because there job isnt to run up and kill all the things. the guardsmen are there to sit hold and fortify objectives till they are told to move to the next one. its why only marines have bolters. because they are the ones that are doing in feet first behind enemy lines to get gak done.

Otherwise if every guardsmen had a bolter, think of the logistics and raw material it would take to produce all that.

Edit: Quote fail

It happens to everyone.

I'm guessing that somewhere between .1% and .01% of the IoM is in the Guard, based on modern numbers and the random lack of automation in some areas (and the number of ferral worlds, etc) and the large amount of automation in others.

The Tau, based on their very high level of automation across all areas of society, field at least 1% and maybe as high as 20-25% of their society as troops.

What we know absolutely for certain is that the Tau field a larger % of their population as soldiers.

While doing so, they provide the base-line grunt, the Fire Warrior, with a weapon superior to that issued to the IoM's elite forces.

Given the decentralized nature of Septs compared to the Imperium's Forge World-based production system, it seems fair to say the Tau will maintain their ability to equip their soldiers as well as they acquire more worlds.

If you are arguing that the Tau equip themselves so well because the Imperium is grossly inefficient ("As to IoMs capacity for making bolters. you do realize the scopes we are talking about?") then you probably have a point. The Imperial bureaucracy is beyond incompetent. The Tau Empire isn't. In theory, economy of scale is something that should be working in the Imperium's favor, is it not? Bolters aren't exactly made of unobtanium, are they?

What i am saying is that Just because you can equip every single person with Bolters and super special ammunition doesn't mean its always going to be worth it or effective in any sense.

By scope Im saying its easier to ship replacements from only a few sectors away rather than a few star systems.

Economy of scale means bubkis when they have an equal scale of enemies constantly attacking.

Edit: As well note that if we are going by fluff. Bolt weapons would be doing FAR more damage to its current 4/5. at least as far as the HH is concerned.

 Desubot wrote:


Edit: As well note that if we are going by fluff. Bolt weapons would be doing FAR more damage to its current 4/5. at least as far as the HH is concerned.

I don't think so. 4/5 seems about right since hardly anything but a SM is better than T3 Sv 5+