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 EmpNortonII wrote:
In other words, humanity is so incompetent that soldering an lascannon to the top of a Rhino is beyond their technological grasp... and pretty much everything on your list is the same way, my favorite example being the Stalker, of course, because it is explicitly stated that humanity tried and FAILED to create something like it for thousands of years before the STC was recovered.

Alot of the AFV's used by the Imperium are born by field-modding the older models. Most of the Rhino and Land Raider variants were born this way. The reason the retrofitting failed was the absensce of a proper targeting system. With the discovery of Hunter STC that no longer was a problem. (Also, it didn't fail that horribly since there is an AA-version of Whirlwind.)

Also, the tech isn't as stagnant as you think. AdMech is constantly researching and adjusting xenos tech to use by the Imperium. Examples include:
C'tan phase weapon
Digital Weapon (Yeah, not exactly AdMech R&D, but xenos still)
Photon grenades

There were some else xenos-originated weapon tech I don't remember right now...

And IIRC, there was a story in older Necron book about a Tech-Priest who researched on Necron gauss-tech, trying to incorporate it to Imperial tech, but the power requirements were just too huge for any practical application.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
They're shipping equipment across dozens of light-years of space. They would be shipping over many times that, except that all Hammerheads aren't made on one single world.

You seem to be saying the Imperium is awesome because it does things like dedicate a single world to building tanks when that's a stupid thing to do.

It's more efficient to build locally when you can. If humanity had organized itself in a more reasonable fashion, many of said problems you listed wouldn't be problems.

They also might be able to give their front line troops weapons that are more than marginally superior to flashlights.

Tau doesn't have a space-faring history as much as the Imperium. Humans used to be equally as strong (hell, maybe even stronger) than Eldar. Tau doesn't have to hold ground on all parts of the galaxy, they hold just a microscopic part of the whole galaxy.
Yes, local production does help with the supply lines, but the lines are stretched just way too far due to ginormous size of the IoM.

If the Tau had to hold the same amount of ground as the Imperium, they would be doomed. They could not hold any ground due to their limited FTL, and would lose way too much planets constantly. Also the caste system would make Tau fragile on the long-run.

Humanity wasn't as strong as the Old Eldar Empire, If you meant Humanity's technology was on par with the Eldar prior to the Old Night I might agree although it is debatable.

 Khonsu wrote:
Humanity wasn't as strong as the Old Eldar Empire, If you meant Humanity's technology was on par with the Eldar prior to the Old Night I might agree although it is debatable.

Well, it's also debatable if the DAoT humanity was as strong as the Eldar, since the Eldar worlds mainly located in the area that's currently known as Eye of Terror, whereas the humanity spanned the entire galaxy.

While Tau FTL might be slower than mankind's, it has a quality that makes it better in many ways for logistics: it's reliable. A Tau commander can count on the fact that his supplies due tomorrow will arrive tomorrow.

An Imperial commander can't even count on the fact that his supplies javen't been eaten by Warp monsters in transit.

Yep, 10th the speed, 100 times the reliabilty.

I come back to this thread and it's a heated argument about God knows what followed by walls of text

Sounds like any thread with imp v tau.

Very true

If an entire Space Marine chapter fell to the greater good then they would slowly die out over time and not contribute much to the Tau war effort except maybe bolstering the morale of Gue'vesa troopers.

 Great White wrote:
I come back to this thread and it's a heated argument about God knows what followed by walls of text

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Tabletop is more cut and dry. Rules trump fluff in this instance.

...*sigh*


Having actually worked on GW product, this is, sadly, not always the case. I can think of at least one instance I'm aware of where point cost and weapon stats were dictated by fluff rather than balance or good game design. Fluff and crunch have little to do with one another, unless a GW executive decides they do.


A few other things: as of Taros Campaign, tau FTL is just as fast as IN.

SM would not die out under the tau, if for no other reason than they have near zero dependance on the Imperium in the first place. SM can produce their own weapons, etc etc. There is no lack of death worlds in tau space, nor is there a lack of worlds with harsh, unforgiving environments, despite the best the tau can manage. SM are perfectly willing to create situations to produce ideal candidates, and the Tau are willing to turn a blind eye toward the kroot eating people, they're probably not going to care much about living conditions on a recruitment world.

Throw in that some chapters have variant SM creation processes that make the 'rules' for the creation of a space marine questionable at best (since we've all seen 'pre adolecents' with full beards and bodies to make Arnold in his prime look weak being inducted as SM initiates. Looking at YOU Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Space Wolves....)

One (strangely reasonable) thread about the death of the Emperor and what would happen after it suggested the Tau and Ultramarines would likely ally.

If the imperium collapsed (which would make an awesome story line), I'm sure the humanity near the eastern fringe would ally with tau to protect themselves, as well as having an ally against the forces of chaos that I'm sure would be spreading across the imperium. Not only that, imperial worlds would be quite isolated without the light of the astrothing, and might even trade for some tau warp drives. This wouldn't be instant, it would probably take hundreds of years.

Hrm... that gives me some great ideas for some rouge trader stuff.

I can see some rogue trader ship having both tau warp drives along with the standard imperial ones as a secret weapon to help explore the deep dark places where the astronomican doesn't shine and or navigator got their head exploded from the usual warp madness

That's wouldn't be a half bad idea.

I don't understand the philosophy of the marines dying out?

They could arguably get stronger. Since each marine, once fully matured can be harvested of a gene seed, that means you can make more marines, make more marines, you can make more apothecaries, and so on and so on. Now, a recruiting world(s) could potentially be a problem, but cloning would also no longer be an issue, find some suitable candidates and let the tau help you build the equipment and facilities and in not very long, you are going to have an endless supply of recruits, then once the gene seed starts becoming a hindering factor, let the tau help you clone more of it (if possible) and even get rid of some of the defects or even make it better.

Basically, once you can get over the gene seed hurdle, there is absolutely no reason a space marine chapter that falls to the greater good couldn't grow to legion size providing they are protected/hidden somewhat. The only other problem with that idea, is would the tau allow them to grow that strong? A legion size upgraded space marine force, within your own lines? Risky... Especially if they then fell to chaos.

Anyway, to summarise my point, the marines dying out wouldn't be guaranteed at all.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I don't understand the philosophy of the marines dying out?

They could arguably get stronger. Since each marine, once fully matured can be harvested of a gene seed, that means you can make more marines, make more marines, you can make more apothecaries, and so on and so on. Now, a recruiting world(s) could potentially be a problem, but cloning would also no longer be an issue, find some suitable candidates and let the tau help you build the equipment and facilities and in not very long, you are going to have an endless supply of recruits, then once the gene seed starts becoming a hindering factor, let the tau help you clone more of it (if possible) and even get rid of some of the defects or even make it better.

Basically, once you can get over the gene seed hurdle, there is absolutely no reason a space marine chapter that falls to the greater good couldn't grow to legion size providing they are protected/hidden somewhat. The only other problem with that idea, is would the tau allow them to grow that strong? A legion size upgraded space marine force, within your own lines? Risky... Especially if they then fell to chaos.

Anyway, to summarise my point, the marines dying out wouldn't be guaranteed at all.

I think the most important thing is that would the Ethereals allow them to join in the first place?

Astartes aren't submissive, and I doubt that they would just start to blindly follow the greater good.

Yes, they would propably get along just fine with the Fire Caste, but they would be butting heads with the ethereals.

I am not actually sure of what the Tau would do if they met someone who said 'We agree with you, and we will fight with you and help you, but we will not serve you.'

I don't think the Tau would try to force them, or try to conquer them anyway. It'd hurt their own morale.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am not actually sure of what the Tau would do if they met someone who said 'We agree with you, and we will fight with you and help you, but we will not serve you.'

I don't think the Tau would try to force them, or try to conquer them anyway. It'd hurt their own morale.

I mean, that's what happened in the Damocles Gulf, isn't it? The local imperial populace traded openly with the Tau and many civilians joined gangs of Tau supporters, shaving their heads into high-knots to resemble the tau.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
If the imperium collapsed (which would make an awesome story line), I'm sure the humanity near the eastern fringe would ally with tau to protect themselves, as well as having an ally against the forces of chaos that I'm sure would be spreading across the imperium. Not only that, imperial worlds would be quite isolated without the light of the astrothing, and might even trade for some tau warp drives. This wouldn't be instant, it would probably take hundreds of years.

Why wouldn't they just look to nearby Ultramar for protection?

And I dunno, the whole thing just seems very unlikely to me. They have a direct connection to the Emperor through their gene-seed. Why would they ever abandon that for the Greater Good? The Greater Good offers nothing a Space Marine would be interested in, as they live only to fight for the Emperor and humanity. And I'm not sure the Ethereal's pheremones would work on them. Even Farsight abandoned the Greater Good once he was outside of the Ethereal's influence. Why would psycho-indoctrinated Astartes even care? They'd be too stubborn to seek out Xenos protection if they went rogue (plus all the chapters we know of that go rogue either continue to fight for humanity or fall to Chaos).

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Why wouldn't they just look to nearby Ultramar for protection?

ATM both the Tau and Ultramar are up to their eyeballs in Kraken and Leviathan. If the astronomicon went out with the emperor's death, the Ultramarines wouldn't be in much of a position to help anyone.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

And I'm not sure the Ethereal's pheremones would work on them. Even Farsight abandoned the Greater Good once he was outside of the Ethereal's influence. Why would psycho-indoctrinated Astartes even care? They'd be too stubborn to seek out Xenos protection if they went rogue (plus all the chapters we know of that go rogue either continue to fight for humanity or fall to Chaos).

The pheromones thing has been retconned. Farsight abandoned the Greater Good because Chaos now, though exactly what's going on there is not actually very clear. (being that the ruinous powers can't get a good grip on Tau souls, apparently, but they're working on it. Farsight has already lived several hundred years, when most tau die of old age around 60, IIRC.) It seems that atm he's angry because the Etherials knew about Chaos but don't consider it a threat, or some such.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
ATM both the Tau and Ultramar are up to their eyeballs in Kraken and Leviathan. If the astronomicon went out with the emperor's death, the Ultramarines wouldn't be in much of a position to help anyone.

True, totally forgot the Astronomican!

 BaronIveagh wrote:
The pheromones thing has been retconned. Farsight abandoned the Greater Good because Chaos now, though exactly what's going on there is not actually very clear. (being that the ruinous powers can't get a good grip on Tau souls, apparently, but they're working on it. Farsight has already lived several hundred years, when most tau die of old age around 60, IIRC.) It seems that atm he's angry because the Etherials knew about Chaos but don't consider it a threat, or some such.

Has it? I know Farsight abandoned the Greater Good after coming into contact with Chaos but it has more to do with Chaos killing off the Ethereals and freeing him of their influence (unless the Farsight Enclaves supplement has been retconned?). Another reason is that he realizes the naivety of dismissing threats like Chaos with the inevitable success of the Greater Good (very similar to the Imperial Truth if you think about it - and I think it's implied as well).

And Farsight living several hundred years has nothing to do with Chaos, it's the life-stealing Dawn Blade that's allowing him to live that long.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The most likely thing to happen is that such a grave, unprecedented heresy as Astartes defecting to xenos would bring a very harsh response from the Inquisition. Normally, when a SM chapter turns renegade, they seek refuge in the Warp or keep running around to escape the wrath of the Inquisition. The Tau Empire would not be able to provide a safe refuge for the renegade Marines.

Of course, it could take centuries for the Inquisition to hear about, assign resources to deal with it, and then actually send those resources out to deal with it.

Besides, I imagine a renegade SM Chapter isn't a big deal compared to, say, Cadia being swallowed by the Eye of Terror if Abaddon takes it. I can't imagine one renegade Chapter of marines is a big deal compared to the 13th Black Crusade.

Actually it is. It may not be a physical threat to the Imperium, but it is an ideological threat. It is a heresy of the greatest magnitude, for it undermines the core beliefs of the Imperial Creed and the Adeptus Astartes. If the Inquisition does not respond to it with extreme prejudice, it could set a very dangerous precedent. Not to mention the disaster if the news would spread around. It is all about setting an example and covering up dangerous truths that could undermine the entire system of propaganda, lies, xenophobia and blind faith the Imperium is built upon.


Of course, it is possible that it takes a thousand years before anyone notices the missing Chapter, but those instances seem to be exception, rather than rule. Imperial communication is unreliable (Actually it is very efficient by 40k standards, Imperial communication is only second to the Eldar) but adequate considering the vast size of the Imperium.

Based on what I read call from reading the Farsight book, Farsight's main reason for deserting was that he felt he and Tau in general had been manipulated. He was convinced the Ethereals had known about Chaos beforehand and therefore had a special interest in Arthas Moloch.

Based on them not going Tau, Or Eldar, or Necron(Lol) or Dark Eldar it is safe to assume the only power to bypass Space Marine psycho-indoctrination is Chaos, Or maybe they sincerely hate Xenos that bad.

 Khonsu wrote:
Based on them not going Tau, Or Eldar, or Necron(Lol) or Dark Eldar it is safe to assume the only power to bypass Space Marine psycho-indoctrination is Chaos, Or maybe they sincerely hate Xenos that bad.

Chaos appeals to their basic human feelings; lust for power, knowledge, wealth, etc.

Xenos rarely have anything like that to offer...

Yeah, and I think the tau are the only xenos race that actually would want a chapter to fall to them.

There is one instance of a Chapter (nearly) falling to The Greater Good. (spoiler'd)

I'm surprised that there haven't been multiple instances of Tau trying to actively recruit space marine chapters to the greater good. I'm sure if they had a chapter willing to join them that the Tau could reverse engineer and improve existing equipment for the chapter fairly easily. Or simply modifying existing Tau equipment to fit the space marines. They could bolster the ranks of the astartes with the humans who are a part of the Tau empire or possibly find some way to make Tau space marine (which is far less plausible). But I'm really curious as to who in the chapter makes space marines into space marines, because whoever is could teach the Tau how or just simply keep the chapter numbers from deteriorating. But anyway I really like the idea of a chapter serving the greater good and it's an interesting thing to think about for sure, I just don't know how plausible it actually is.

In my eyes atleast the only way Space Marine indoctrination could be broken is with the temptation of Chaos, Even when a Space Marine chapter goes renegade it cannot betray the Emperor and serve Xenos, They might disagree with the Imperium, But I doubt they'd serve a blue race with hooves that is dominated by Ethereal mind control.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

And Farsight living several hundred years has nothing to do with Chaos, it's the life-stealing Dawn Blade that's allowing him to live that long.

The Pheromone thing got nuked in Deathwatch, but it's source, Xenology, has also been heavily retconned.



or, it gets nuked when you stop and think about it:



Fire warrior armor is NBC sealed. How would a pheromone get in?

Further, fire warriors know when the last ethereal on a planet dies, yet pheromones might not fill a conference room. So it's not built-in to the suit, otherwise it would just keep running.

Farsight is not the only commander to have all the ethereal around him killed, so why is he the only one to have abandoned the greater good?


It almost all goes back to the Dawn Blade. Which, as a life stealing sword, pretty much as 'property of the Ruinous Powers' engraved on it.