Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Same thing that happens to everyone else guilty of heresy- cleansed!

So it's an exo skeleton, kinda like a battlesuit but shaped like a space marine

Well, Space Marine Chapter, unit or individual could turn to the Greater Good. They would join auxillary units like humans, Vespids or kroots in their military. They would have to swear alligence to the Tau Empire and accept some doctrines of the Fire Warrior cast. Most of their stuff would remain similar with the oocasionnal tweek here and there in their equipment (new grenades, different munition for their bolters, different mark of armour, etc.). They would still need to recruit from male human children so the «soft lifestyle» aren't an issue. A nine years old hasn't proven anything in any culture beside his ability to listen to his mom and keep away from danger. Formal training will do the rest. Geneseed mutation would be a problem thought.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
... and we have a winner for the award "Dumbest comment made in thread."

And I thought I was defensive about my CSM. Good gawd.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The pulse rifle is, in every way, superior to the bolter. It hits harder at greater range and is easier to build and supply.

Than a human bolter, aye, probably.

Than an Astartes bolter? Significantly less consistent. There's sources and indications in either direction.

 sudojoe wrote:
1) would the marines eventually start using like 4 pulse rifles strapped together or just use rail rifles in rapid fire mode?

They would get bolters improved by the Tau, just like Kroot have Kroot rifles.

 sudojoe wrote:
2) would a marine be able to fly a crisis or riptide suit?

No.

 sudojoe wrote:
3) would he fit inside a devilfish transport?

Yes but he will not be invited to use it.

 sudojoe wrote:
4) having stealth suit marines?

No.

 sudojoe wrote:
5) could the Tau start to have genetically modified fire warriors?

They have the cast system. And Marines have no idea how to genetically modify anything.

 sudojoe wrote:
6) increase their use of chainsaws?

No.

 sudojoe wrote:
7) trade the marines to the kroot?

No.

 sudojoe wrote:
8) just use up the marines as soon as possible so as to be rid of them or try to keep them around for more studies?

Keep them. But not over Tau lives.

Why couldn't a chapter stockpile gene-seed and gear before they make the switch?

Plus, rouge traders could be used as a new source of gear / information / slaves for new recruits.

Or, why not create female space marines? That would solve the whole need for both gene-seeds and recruits while also allowing for some kick-shebs minis.
Note: 'shebs' is Mandalorian for rear-end / buttocks.

I for one would play this army, and just talking about it has made me want to do some serious kit-bashing.

 sudojoe wrote:



So while we know that blah blah hard to corrupt, for the emperor and in general would be excommunicated etc... say that somehow a chapter like the soul drinkers turned rogue for the usual reasons but didn't want to go down the road of chaos but instead decided to seek refuge within the Tau empire...

I'm thinking that they can definitely be used on the other frontiers fighting off orks/nids and away from other imperials but do you guys think:

1) would the marines eventually start using like 4 pulse rifles strapped together or just use rail rifles in rapid fire mode? Unneccessary Equipment it is
2) would a marine be able to fly a crisis or riptide suit? and if so, how well would he be able to use it? Tech heresy.
3) would he fit inside a devilfish transport? rulez say 1:1. Models.....
4) having stealth suit marines? NO

5) could the Tau start to have genetically modified fire warriors? Never
6) increase their use of chainsaws? No
7) trade the marines to the kroot? They are goods you can trade? Why would Kroot want them ( except as food ) ?
8) just use up the marines as soon as possible so as to be rid of them or try to keep them around for more studies? Tau like their own ideas too much. So best bet is they "allow" them to die..

All Imperial Space Marines exist to cleanse the Galaxy of the Xeno. Both, Loyalist and Traitor still do.
Fall to a fan made heresy? Unlikely.
I would not put it past some people to buy into this "bright future" propaganda nonsense , but basically 40k is all about "no easy way out" and eternal war.

The tau would be stupid not to use space marines, and the tau are defiantly not. If they created their own space marines it would inspire loyalty amoung tau Gue'vesa, and make imperial planets more likely to join the tau empire. And of course with tau tech they would be superior man for man then any imperial space marine. The tau could also use kroot dna to try and make their own geneseeds and if they put a bit of tau dna in their as well then they will be totally loyal to the ethereals or use a vespid helm sort of thing.

Would the marines eventually start using like 4 pulse rifles strapped together or just use rail rifles in rapid fire mode?

. Pulse weaponry would probably be made available to Space Marines with bolters potentially being phased out if the Tau don't bother with manufacturing the bolt rounds.

2) would a marine be able to fly a crisis or riptide suit? and if so, how well would he be able to use it? (for that matter, how fast could a marine learn the Tau language enough to use their equipment?)

. this I don't see happening. Maybe some the Tau work to make jetpacks compatible with Power Armor, but full on crisis suits or riptides? Nahhh. (reminds me of the ultramarine armor in the dornian heresy though).
3) would he fit inside a devilfish transport?

Possibly get a Variant made for them after their rhinos run low in numbers for whatever reason.

4) having stealth suit marines?

Think this depends on the chapter and their beliefs. Those akin to raptors or mantis warriors would probably go for it. Your average chapter might see the stealth technology be adapted for their scouts. But those obsessed with "fighting honorably"? Probably not.

5) could the Tau start to have genetically modified fire warriors?

. I think the tau would eventually look into this, the chapter might be reluctant at first but one way or another, the Tau would get their hands on the geneseed and look into reverse engineering it to whatever extent.

6) increase their use of chainsaws?

. Don't see this happening to any significant extent. Probably just stays within the chapter and maybe extends to the possible groups of quasi-geneseed enhanced firewarriors.

7) trade the marines to the kroot?

Nope

8) just use up the marines as soon as possible so as to be rid of them or try to keep them around for more studies?

. Keep them around as long as possible/necessary. Gain insight on how to most efficiently kill a space marine, figure out their M.O., study geneseed... In short, keep them around until they figure out how they can make something similar to a Space Marine on their own. Once there is nothing more significant to gain, then find a way to dispose of them.

 Finlandiaperkele wrote:
Found the picture source finally! Included with backstory:
http://ukitakumuki.deviantart.com/art/Hammerhead-Down-40K-315545763

That's actually very clever. I kind of like it. It's almost like a tech heresy on top of the xenos one. Man, I love the background info!

I'm still wondering why the marine robot would still use a bolter. It'd be far more impressive to use a heavier gauge rail rifle mounted on an astartes chassis.

Would also make a really good in game rules standpoint. Like more expensive counter melee units like elite versions when you just don't want kroot around.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
... and we have a winner for the award "Dumbest comment made in thread."

And I thought I was defensive about my CSM. Good gawd.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The pulse rifle is, in every way, superior to the bolter. It hits harder at greater range and is easier to build and supply.

Than a human bolter, aye, probably.

Than an Astartes bolter? Significantly less consistent. There's sources and indications in either direction.

Fluff is always biased by whatever character is giving his opinions.

Tabletop is more cut and dry. Rules trump fluff in this instance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
Same thing that happens to everyone else guilty of heresy- cleansed!

... except for the Word Bearers, Night Lords, Death Guard, Black Legion, Thousand Suns, Red Corsairs, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, and World Eaters.

9 of those 10 have been chilling for 10,000 years without being cleansed. Imperial efficiency is an oxymoron in Warhammer 40k.

The Thousand Sons are pretty well cleansed. After their disastrous attack on Fenris, the number of original, living 1KS can probably be counted on both hands.

The rest are simply empty suits of armor that get reanimated time and time again.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Rules trump fluff in this instance.

[citation needed]

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
... and we have a winner for the award "Dumbest comment made in thread."

And I thought I was defensive about my CSM. Good gawd.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The pulse rifle is, in every way, superior to the bolter. It hits harder at greater range and is easier to build and supply.

Than a human bolter, aye, probably.

Than an Astartes bolter? Significantly less consistent. There's sources and indications in either direction.

Fluff is always biased by whatever character is giving his opinions.

Tabletop is more cut and dry. Rules trump fluff in this instance.

Except that even in tabletop, if you look at the assortment of different types of ammunition available to the Astartes and Inquisition, the Boltgun is a more versatile and modular weapon design. Which makes it better for the Astartes than the Pulse Rifle considering the nature of their job as Shock Assault Troops, and technically Special Operations. For line troops, yes the Pulse Rifle is superior.

Lets look at a Chapter joining the Tau, likely their method of deployment would come to mirrior the fluff significantly more, with a Squad or Two being deployed to handle situations or acting as one of the Tau Mont'ka (Killing Blow) forces. With the advanced methods of production available to the Tau, the specialized Bolter shells usually only available to the first Company or Specialist formations would be come more available to the Chapter as a whole. Along with the shells the presently have the Tau could increase the types of shells available to the Chapter, or just produce a variant Boltgun incorporating Tau tech.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Rules trump fluff in this instance.

[citation needed]

... you seriously just asked for a rules citation for things listed in the Tau and SM Codex? Like, not things that are hard to find, but the weapons profiles in the back of the books?

Heck, don't they include that stuff in the back of the 7th ed codex, too?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
... and we have a winner for the award "Dumbest comment made in thread."

And I thought I was defensive about my CSM. Good gawd.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The pulse rifle is, in every way, superior to the bolter. It hits harder at greater range and is easier to build and supply.

Than a human bolter, aye, probably.

Than an Astartes bolter? Significantly less consistent. There's sources and indications in either direction.

Fluff is always biased by whatever character is giving his opinions.

Tabletop is more cut and dry. Rules trump fluff in this instance.

Except that even in tabletop, if you look at the assortment of different types of ammunition available to the Astartes and Inquisition, the Boltgun is a more versatile and modular weapon design. Which makes it better for the Astartes than the Pulse Rifle considering the nature of their job as Shock Assault Troops, and technically Special Operations. For line troops, yes the Pulse Rifle is superior.

Lets look at a Chapter joining the Tau, likely their method of deployment would come to mirrior the fluff significantly more, with a Squad or Two being deployed to handle situations or acting as one of the Tau Mont'ka (Killing Blow) forces. With the advanced methods of production available to the Tau, the specialized Bolter shells usually only available to the first Company or Specialist formations would be come more available to the Chapter as a whole. Along with the shells the presently have the Tau could increase the types of shells available to the Chapter, or just produce a variant Boltgun incorporating Tau tech.

I can't bring myself to argue with anyone who is basing their argument on the vastly superior production power of the Tau Empire.

Sure, once Space Marines are being supplied by an empire that is competent enough to supply them with specialized ammo, sure, the bolter becomes a better option than by-the-book rules. Of course, that is only the case because the brightest thousand men and women in the Adeptus Mechanicus are about as quick-thinking, inventive, and well-educated as the first ten Earth Caste you could pull in off the streets of T'au.

Im pretty sure the etherals have some sort of knowledge about chaos and its threat.

enough to know that humans, especial stronger ones can be a massive threat to there reign so they keep most of them at arms length and never let them rank up in the hierarchy.

its possible they will allow SM to help them but will probably NEVER make a full alliance. at best they are asked to keep a specific world safe but always with an eye watching them.

EmpNortonII wrote:

I can't bring myself to argue with anyone who is basing their argument on the vastly superior production power of the Tau Empire.

Sure, once Space Marines are being supplied by an empire that is competent enough to supply them with specialized ammo, sure, the bolter becomes a better option than by-the-book rules. Of course, that is only the case because the brightest thousand men and women in the Adeptus Mechanicus are about as quick-thinking, inventive, and well-educated as the first ten Earth Caste you could pull in off the streets of T'au.

Well even rules wise I would say that the Sternguard Boltguns are functionally superior to the Pulse Rifle. Then if we go with Deathwatch and Black Crusade and the wider assortment of shells.

But yes, Tac Marine Bolter, to Firewarrior Pulse Rifle, the Pulse Rifle is better on the table.

Desubot wrote:Im pretty sure the etherals have some sort of knowledge about chaos and its threat.

enough to know that humans, especial stronger ones can be a massive threat to there reign so they keep most of them at arms length and never let them rank up in the hierarchy.

its possible they will allow SM to help them but will probably NEVER make a full alliance. at best they are asked to keep a specific world safe but always with an eye watching them.

They keep anyone that is not Tau at arms length, The Kroot are their least trusted force, but they are still in a full alliance. A Chapter would likely receive similar treatment, and frankly with how they are used to being autonomous anyway, would likely not be bothered by the fact.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
... you seriously just asked for a rules citation for things listed in the Tau and SM Codex? Like, not things that are hard to find, but the weapons profiles in the back of the books?

I'm reasonably certain that Ashiraya is asking for a citation on "rules>fluff because rules are more consistent", not a rules citation on the tabletop mechanics of the weapons involved.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I can't bring myself to argue with anyone who is basing their argument on the vastly superior production power of the Tau Empire.

Sure, once Space Marines are being supplied by an empire that is competent enough to supply them with specialized ammo, sure, the bolter becomes a better option than by-the-book rules. Of course, that is only the case because the brightest thousand men and women in the Adeptus Mechanicus are about as quick-thinking, inventive, and well-educated as the first ten Earth Caste you could pull in off the streets of T'au.

I'm going to use an example here.

Let's say that the "million world Imperium" is a literal quote, and that each world (very conservatively) has an average population of 500 million people. This works out to a total of 500 quadrillion inhabitants. A conservative number for only the Stormtroopers in the Imperium would be 0.1% of total population- or 1 quadrillion Stormtroopers.

Let's say that the Tau Empire consists of 1000 worlds with an average population of 10 billion people. This is then a total of 10 trillion people in the Tau Empire. Not "Tau". People. As in, all species that inhabit the Tau Empire.

A highly conservative estimate of Imperial population and Stormtrooper conscription/recruitment "rate" yields a value that indicates that the Imperium has more Stormtroopers- IE, an elite, highly motivated, well-trained, and well equipped force- than there exist members of the Tau species. Keep in mind that, in terms of difficulty of production, the hotshot lasgun and carapace armor issued to Stormtroopers is roughly comparable to the equipment issued to a Fire Warrior.

And the Imperium is equipping around three orders of magnitude more personnel than exist within the borders of the Tau Empire.

Any argument of "Tau production superiority" or "Tau technical superiority" is rapidly rendered meaningless and wrong when one considers even a very conservative estimate of Imperial population and the percentage of Imperial citizens that are under arms.

And I didn't even get into a plausible estimate of conscription into the line regiments of the Guard.

It's also worth noting that fluff-wise specialty ammunition is specialty for a reason- standard-issue bolt rounds apparently get the job done well enough that they've not really decided to upgrade it over the course of ten thousand years. As in, longer than the Tau Empire has even existed.

The Imperium is a slowly declining galaxy-spanning empire, yes. This doesn't really change the fact that despite all the decline and loss (and occasional rediscovery) of knowledge the Imperium has still stood for 10,000 years against all comers.

Tau probably can"t match the Imperium in production of regular troop gear, but they probably can exceed and at least match the Imperium in their ability toproduce high-tech gear. Most high-end Imperial gear (Teminator armor, Titans, Land Raiders, hell, eben Plasma Cannon Leman Russ IIRC) are stuff only a few Forge Worlds still can/know how to make. Tau suffer no such issues because technology seems to be well understood and freely shated within the Earth Caste.

That really falls apart though, when considering that a highly conservative estimate of Imperial population and a similarly conservative estimate of the proportion of total population to Stormtroopers as 0.1% yields a figure that there are more Stormtroopers in Imperial service than there exist sentient beings in the Tau Empire by a factor of 10-100 times.

When we further consider that the relative quality of equipment used by Imperial Stormtroopers and Tau Fire Warriors is comparable... the Tau's production doesn't look so hot.

That's not even considering all the things that the Imperium has a thorough understanding of that the Tau only barely understand the existence of- like the Warp, and the various technologies stemming from the applications of Warp energy (Vortex weapons, proper warp drives, psyker training).

Technology is often more freely shared among the members of the Earth Caste, certainly- but the Tau Empire is as a whole far more monolithic than the Imperium, and this extends to the AdMech as well- they're similarly non-monolithic and heavily distributed.

Take into account the logically hyper-conservative positions of the Mechanicus- you'd be the same way if introducing some new thing could lead to it being randomly possessed by daemons bent on eating your soul- and technical understanding sort of ends up being a case of "Imperium understands more, and knows why it's good to be conservative".

There is also the fact that the Mechanicus generally hold that the majority of things worth discovering were discovered during the Dark Age of Technology- the Tau have no such equivalent event, and so are currently relatively optimistic and quite frankly rather naive.

I think you guys overlook a very important fact: just because a Space Marine Chapter fell to the Greater Good, it doesn't automatically mean that they fell to the Tau Empire. Case in point: the Farsight Enclaves.

In my opinion, such a chapter would be a greater threat to the Tau Empire than any Imperial Crusade or Tyrannid Hive Fleet. It would be Farsight 2: The Electric Bungaloo all over again, but with a Space Marine Chapter f*cking sh*t up instead of Farsight and his misfits. Hell, Farsight would maybe even join the party with his forces just to watch Aun'va bend over.

Whiskey144 wrote:


It's also worth noting that fluff-wise specialty ammunition is specialty for a reason- standard-issue bolt rounds apparently get the job done well enough that they've not really decided to upgrade it over the course of ten thousand years. As in, longer than the Tau Empire has even existed.

.

Straight out of the Space Marine codex, the Adeptus Astartes and the Mechanicum couldn't, over the course of 4,000 of those years, figure out how to solder some anti-aircraft missiles and a radar onto a Rhino chassis.

They had to find an STC for it to be possible with their understanding of technology.

The IoM doesn't keep their current tech level because things work well. Mass-producing new types of bolter ammo is something that is literally beyond their understanding of technology, and that's why only a few units have access to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtoMaki wrote:
I think you guys overlook a very important fact: just because a Space Marine Chapter fell to the Greater Good, it doesn't automatically mean that they fell to the Tau Empire. Case in point: the Farsight Enclaves.

In my opinion, such a chapter would be a greater threat to the Tau Empire than any Imperial Crusade or Tyrannid Hive Fleet. It would be Farsight 2: The Electric Bungaloo all over again, but with a Space Marine Chapter f*cking sh*t up instead of Farsight and his misfits. Hell, Farsight would maybe even join the party with his forces just to watch Aun'va bend over.

... except Farsight has been pointedly avoiding a confrontation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whiskey144 wrote:


That's not even considering all the things that the Imperium has a thorough understanding of that the Tau only barely understand the existence of- like the Warp, and the various technologies stemming from the applications of Warp energy (Vortex weapons, proper warp drives, psyker training).


Take into account the logically hyper-conservative positions of the Mechanicus- you'd be the same way if introducing some new thing could lead to it being randomly possessed by daemons bent on eating your soul- and technical understanding sort of ends up being a case of "Imperium understands more, and knows why it's good to be conservative".

You do realize that one of these causes the other, right? Tau don't currently have that problem and probably never will.

First of all, iy's debatable that fire warrior and storm trooper gear are equivalent from a technological point of view.

Armor: even if the protection is equivalent, the fire warrioris, as stated in the Tau codex, produced by more advanced techniques than those available to the Imperium. If the outer layer is Fio'tak (which probably is) that's a more advanced material than the Ceramite used in Space Marine Power Armor.

Wrapons: admitting for the sake of argument s3 ap3 is eqivalent to s5 ap5 (which would make hot-shot lasguns better than bolters and raise the question about why not give marines hot-shot lasguns), the hot-shot lasgun is based on las technology, whereas pulse rifles are a kind of plasma gun, a weapon which the Imperium is unable to both produce in mass as well as devise a version that is safe to operate.

There are also several areas of technology where Tau has a vastly better.understanding than mankind, plasma, anti-grav and high end materials being a few of them.

@Whiskey144

I would generally agree with you on the small powers that the Tau Empire represent compared to the Imperium, but you also need to consider two things. The Tau Empire is small and dense which means it's very easy to ferry ressources (living or not) from one point to the other of their Empire. The Imperium on the other side is stretched thin and entire region are prone to be left alone and to their own device. Considering it's asymetrical level of development, this can prove to be an issue.

I would also point out that I think you grossly over estimate the numbers of active Tempestus Scions in the Imperium. You would have them has 1 for every 1000 person in the Imperium which in my opinion is ridiculous for the following reasons.

Scions are orphanned nobles trained successfully in the Schola Progenium and who weren't selected by the Inquisition who has first pick, the Adeptas Sororitas who has second pick, then the Officio Prefectus who has third pick. They probably represent 20% of the those who enter the Schola Progenium who are themselves perhaps at most 10% of the noble population which is propably at most 0.1% of the total Imperial population.

So their would be a Scion (or Scion in training or retired) for every 50 000 person in the Imperium and that's the most that logic allows us to make it may actually be more around 1 Scion for every 500 000 person or even 1 for a million. Of course this represent billions of Scions in total, but spread thin in the entire galaxy. This is a very large and highly trained and well equipped army, but not so dangerous because of the actual position of the Imperium.

epronovost wrote:
@Whiskey144

I would also point out that I think you grossly over estimate the numbers of active Tempestus Scions in the Imperium. You would have them has 1 for every 1000 person in the Imperium which in my opinion is ridiculous for the following reasons.

Scions are orphanned nobles trained successfully in the Schola Progenium and who weren't selected by the Inquisition who has first pick, the Adeptas Sororitas who has second pick, then the Officio Prefectus who has third pick. They probably represent 20% of the those who enter the Schola Progenium who are themselves perhaps at most 10% of the noble population which is propably at most 0.1% of the total Imperial population.

So their would be a Scion (or Scion in training or retired) for every 50 000 person in the Imperium and that's the most that logic allows us to make it may actually be more around 1 Scion for every 500 000 person or even 1 for a million. Of course this represent billions of Scions in total, but spread thin in the entire galaxy. This is a very large and highly trained and well equipped army, but not so dangerous because of the actual position of the Imperium.

The USA, which is vastly more efficient than the Imperium of Man, has about 36,000 special ops personnel out of a population of 320 million.

1 in 8,889. That's .012% of the population. A figure smaller than yours by a magnitude of 10, including what in the IoM would be the sum total of Stormtroopers, Vanguard vets, Space Marines, the SoB, and a bunch of other stuff.

From one bullshitter to another, if you're gonna pull numbers out of your ass, at least check to see how far in you have to reach to pull a number out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordBlades wrote:




Wrapons: admitting for the sake of argument s3 ap3 is eqivalent to s5 ap5 (which would make hot-shot lasguns better than bolters and raise the question about why not give marines hot-shot lasguns), the hot-shot lasgun is based on las technology, whereas pulse rifles are a kind of plasma gun, a weapon which the Imperium is unable to both produce in mass as well as devise a version that is safe to operate.

Out past (whatever the in-game equivalent of 18 inches figure out to in real terms), hot-shot lasguns work about as well as throwing rocks or shouting obsenities.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The USA, which is vastly more efficient than the Imperium of Man, has about 36,000 special ops personnel out of a population of 320 million.

1 in 8,889. That's .012% of the population. A figure smaller than yours by a magnitude of 10, including what in the IoM would be the sum total of Stormtroopers, Vanguard vets, Space Marines, the SoB, and a bunch of other stuff.

Funnily enough, even if the US had the same percentage of special forces personnel (which it doesn't), the IoM still has far far far more warriors than the Tau has populace.

So his point actually stands.

From one bullshitter to another, if you're gonna pull numbers out of your ass, at least check to see how far in you have to reach to pull a number out.

Are you always this defensive about Tau?

@EmpNortonII

Would you be so kind to tell me how many of the US special force were recruited at the age of 6 from orphanage dedicated only to raising children of Noble birth please?

The society that had the highest numbers of noble vs villains (AKA normal people) was France during the early 18th century with one noble for every 1600 normal person. Now, Scions are recruited from the orphaned sons and daughters of these noble people which means their parents need to be dead. Most of these person have a tendancy of not dying frequently because they are rich and rather well educated. So saying that 10% of all noble children are orphanned is rather generous. Then you have to deduct from tose 10% orphaned children those who will die in the Scholam (a decent number) those who will serve in more august institution then the Ordo Tempestus and those who just don't make the cut to be Scion despite their teachers best efforts.

Making a comparison between the US army and the Imperium military institution is about has intelligent has using the Napoleonian Army to assess the size and structure of the army of the Sarmatean Federation. These two civilsations have absolutly nothing in common when it comes to warfare, be it on the logistical, strategical or socio-economical structure. You got more chances of comming with correct numbers with a demographic assesment of the numbers of nobles vs villains in the Imperial society than counting special forces in the US army.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The USA, which is vastly more efficient than the Imperium of Man, has about 36,000 special ops personnel out of a population of 320 million.

1 in 8,889. That's .012% of the population. A figure smaller than yours by a magnitude of 10, including what in the IoM would be the sum total of Stormtroopers, Vanguard vets, Space Marines, the SoB, and a bunch of other stuff.

Funnily enough, even if the US had the same percentage of special forces personnel (which it doesn't), the IoM still has far far far more warriors than the Tau has populace.

So his point actually stands.

From one bullshitter to another, if you're gonna pull numbers out of your ass, at least check to see how far in you have to reach to pull a number out.

Are you always this defensive about Tau?

Yup. Ask around.

The IoM's massive populace didn't help it defend Cadia against the Armless Wonder. You'd think that all those Stormtroopers would have turned the tide there, but they didn't. That's the thing- the Imperium has so many people it gives the overwhelming majority of them the worst weapons in the galaxy. The Tau, however, are able to give their basic grunts equipment on par with humanity's elite, and STILL give their elite warriors Crisis and Stealth suits... and since the Earth Caste doesn't horde its technology, the Tau can continue to equip its forces as it does no matter how large it gets, because their weapon systems (with a few exceptions, like maybe Riptides) can be produced locally.

A suit of Terminator armor or a Dreadnought is a valued relic that is difficult to replace. The Tau pump out Broadside suits with shields (not that many people want to pay the points for them on the tabletop) pretty easily... and it's only going to get easier. For humanity, it's the other way around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:
@EmpNortonII

Would you be so kind to tell me ...

Dude- friendly fire. I'm trying- just like you- to point out how ridiculous his made-up numbers are.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Straight out of the Space Marine codex, the Adeptus Astartes and the Mechanicum couldn't, over the course of 4,000 of those years, figure out how to solder some anti-aircraft missiles and a radar onto a Rhino chassis.

They had to find an STC for it to be possible with their understanding of technology.

Counterpoint: they had to find an STC because the STCs are historically resilient to daemonic possession unless deliberately corrupted. For an STC to be corrupt out of the box it's incredibly rare- as in, AFAIK there's less than five instances of STC systems being corrupted straight up. For the Marines/Mechanicus to require an STC to do so is logically consistent with how technology works in 40K- which is to say, that yes, those weird prayers are actually important because if your computer gets possessed by a daemon it will try to kill you and eat your soul.

It's also worth noting the general lack of anti-aircraft armaments of any level of sophistication in 40K.

Additional counterpoint: no, it is not as simple as "soldering some SAMs and a rader onto a Rhino". The design of armored vehicles is in fact a fairly complicated thing. Designing an AA missile system is not as simple as you make it out to be.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The IoM doesn't keep their current tech level because things work well. Mass-producing new types of bolter ammo is something that is literally beyond their understanding of technology, and that's why only a few units have access to it.

I'll need proof that mass production of specific variants of bolter ammunition is beyond their understanding of technology. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that the Imperium simply finds it either unnecessary (better is the enemy of good enough, after all), or uneconomical to manufacture more specialized bolter ammunition en-masse.

OTOH, there's no solid numbers on how many Marines are seconded to the Deathwatch, and it's certainly multiple Chapters' worth of Marines, and given that most of these specialty rounds come from Deathwatch innovation- Dragonfire and Vengeance rounds didn't exist way back in the Horus Heresy.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
You do realize that one of these causes the other, right? Tau don't currently have that problem and probably never will.

Don't have what problem? Computers turning into gibbering abominations bent on consuming the souls of all the things? I mean sure, the Tau being about as Warp-attuned as a brick helps avoid that problem, but some of the particularly sophisticated things that came out of the Dark Age are simply beyond the Tau- at least at this point, and without an extra millenia or four.

LordBlades wrote:
First of all, iy's debatable that fire warrior and storm trooper gear are equivalent from a technological point of view.

Armor: even if the protection is equivalent, the fire warrioris, as stated in the Tau codex, produced by more advanced techniques than those available to the Imperium. If the outer layer is Fio'tak (which probably is) that's a more advanced material than the Ceramite used in Space Marine Power Armor.

Wrapons: admitting for the sake of argument s3 ap3 is eqivalent to s5 ap5 (which would make hot-shot lasguns better than bolters and raise the question about why not give marines hot-shot lasguns), the hot-shot lasgun is based on las technology, whereas pulse rifles are a kind of plasma gun, a weapon which the Imperium is unable to both produce in mass as well as devise a version that is safe to operate.

There are also several areas of technology where Tau has a vastly better.understanding than mankind, plasma, anti-grav and high end materials being a few of them.

I'm not arguing that hotshot lasguns and pulse rifles are equivalent in firepower, I'm arguing that from a technical- and perhaps more relevantly and economic- standpoint they are of similar sophistication. Keep in mind that pulse weapons aren't "true" plasma- they leverage a coilgun accelerator and the munitions- which start off as a solid- are then rendered into an ionized "pulse" state. True plasma armaments pretty much run off of compressed hydrogen charges of some kind.

It's also worth noting that:

1) Plasma weapons are difficult to decipher on a pure fluff basis; referring to the RPGs reveals that only when fired at "maximal" 'yields' is Imperial plasma weaponry unstable. It's also worth noting that there's still so many Imperial personnel under arms that the Imperium is probably producing plasma weapons on a scale comparable to Tau pulse rifles- it's just that they have so many mans that it's not economical to issue plasma guns to every single soldier.
2) Tau understanding isn't better. They simply have more widespread implementation, on account of significantly less pressure to crank out enough tanks to equip more Guardsmen than there are Tau.

I'll also comment that I did not realize that the new "Scion" fluff made the Stormtroopers the equivalent of nobility. Which is kind of dumb, IMO.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The USA, which is vastly more efficient than the Imperium of Man, has about 36,000 special ops personnel out of a population of 320 million.

1 in 8,889. That's .012% of the population. A figure smaller than yours by a magnitude of 10, including what in the IoM would be the sum total of Stormtroopers, Vanguard vets, Space Marines, the SoB, and a bunch of other stuff.

From one bullshitter to another, if you're gonna pull numbers out of your ass, at least check to see how far in you have to reach to pull a number out.

....I did not include Astartes or Sisters in the number. On purpose, in fact. Because Astartes fulfill a very specific role- and fluff feats make Space Marines ridiculously powerful- while Sisters have the equivalent of mass produced power armor.

Also, Vanguard Veterans are a sub-formation of Codex-compliant Astartes chapters, not a separate formation. If you're going to BS about "spec ops population ratios", then try to make an effort to sound vaguely informed about what you're throwing around.

Further, the Imperium is a ridiculously militarized society. Keep in mind that the Imperium has been under attack, at a steady (if not continuous) pace, for ten thousand years. To say that 0.1% of the population is "spec ops personnel" is, IMO, quite reasonable.

As a further example, using our (incredibly) conservative 500 quadrillion total Imperial population estimate, I would argue that, as a minimum, the Imperium maintains at least 5% of its population as an active combat element of the Imperial Guard.

Which means there are 25 quadrillion Guardsmen, or three orders of magnitude more active soldiers than there are members of the Tau species. When you have to equip that many mans, on a galactic scale, it isn't going to be particularly practical to give them all the equivalent of carapace armor and pulse rifles.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Out past (whatever the in-game equivalent of 18 inches figure out to in real terms), hot-shot lasguns work about as well as throwing rocks or shouting obsenities.

Tabletop stats are not relevant to this discussion, particularly considering I was referring to the technical difficulty of the manufacture of the two weapons, as well as the economic requirements involved. It's not about how effective the gun is- it's about how much that gun costs.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
The IoM's massive populace didn't help it defend Cadia against the Armless Wonder. You'd think that all those Stormtroopers would have turned the tide there, but they didn't. That's the thing- the Imperium has so many people it gives the overwhelming majority of them the worst weapons in the galaxy. The Tau, however, are able to give their basic grunts equipment on par with humanity's elite, and STILL give their elite warriors Crisis and Stealth suits... and since the Earth Caste doesn't horde its technology, the Tau can continue to equip its forces as it does no matter how large it gets, because their weapon systems (with a few exceptions, like maybe Riptides) can be produced locally.

The Imperium is fighting hundreds of wars across dozens of theaters. The Black Crusaders are a major threat- and if you'd logically considered things like the Damocles Crusade, you'd have realized that the Imperium really only stopped because the Tyranids were knocking on the door, and the planet-consuming gribbly tide of giant space bugs who are immune to Raid tend to be a much bigger problem than the Tau.

As in, the only reason the Tau still exist is because the Imperium has far bigger fish to fry. Only the Imperium is trying to fry multiple said bigger fish, because said fish all want to pick a fight at the same time.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
A suit of Terminator armor or a Dreadnought is a valued relic that is difficult to replace. The Tau pump out Broadside suits with shields (not that many people want to pay the points for them on the tabletop) pretty easily... and it's only going to get easier. For humanity, it's the other way around.

Both of which were affected by the Horus Heresy; keep in mind that the Imperium, mighty as it is, is still dealing with the after-effects of a war that split the galaxy, and destroyed more than the Tau really have a reference point to even understand. It's also worth noting that Terminator armor is used as a general-purpose super-heavy-infantry armor.

Broadside battlesuits are used exclusively as a heavy weapons platform. The comparison is completely flawed; even a Dreadnought is a poor comparison to the Broadside, on account of how Dreads are really nasty in boarding assaults, and also absolutely terrifying to deal with when you don't have much in the way of heavy weapons on hand.

Incidentally, Broadsides are arguably more vulnerable to anti-armor weapons, on account of how Dreadnoughts tend to be armored to similar standards of armored vehicles.

@EmpNortonII

Sorry, my bad. I tend to be brisk when it comes to these kind of comparison. I have my apologies. I see far to often people trying to rationalise the Imperium by drawing comparision with modern western world, forgetting that the Imperium has more in common with absolutist France of the 18th century than modern country.

It's true thought that the main issue of the Imperium is not the number or even the quality of it's soldiers but it's capacity to deploy them in numbers where and when it counts. Their numerous ennemies aren't helping either.