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Before any changes to DS assault, I'd like to see a baseline re-established where players are content to field basic troops. They're the most iconic units in the game, they ought to be a 'safe' choice rather than a tax or trap.

DS assault won't help with this. It just makes core troops lacking utility even weaker, since many are already outperformed in every category except chaff to bubblewrap more valuable units.

Basically, get the Tacs and Termagaunts up to speed before we look at Jump Marines and Gargoyles.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Before any changes to DS assault, I'd like to see a baseline re-established where players are content to field basic troops. They're the most iconic units in the game, they ought to be a 'safe' choice rather than a tax or trap

I think this is the bigger issue in general.

When literally the only purpose for units like guardsmen is as body-blocking material and who's basic gun requires triple digits worth of shots to kill something like an RP Wraith or FNP'd TWC, units like Wyches are absolutely incapable against the elite units they were once designed to fight, and many similar issues, the game has a fundamental problem that goes away beyond "assault vs shooting". There's a major problem with the scales the game is played at.

The ever increasing scale of firepower, creation of high-T multiwound multiple-save fast units like TWC's and the asinine buffing of Necron Wraiths, inclusion of SH/GC units into just any game (and the odd inverse granularity of detail the game has with them) is causing an increasing number of issues.


There was a time when an S8 AP3 Large Blast Leman Russ Battlecannon was considered an extremely powerful and scary weapon that, at worst, you'd face 3 of (usually only 1 or 2). There was a time when a Carnifex was one of the biggest and scariest unit you'd ever see. There was a time when Lasguns weren't considered extraneous dice rolling. There was a time when a 3+ invul was almost nonexistent except on a couple of SC's and the game had a single 2+ invul save (that failed permanently once failed) and the idea of a 2++ rerollable save was purely the realm of internet hyperbole. The game really need to split at this point, and have normal 40k go back to the above paradigms, and an "Epic" version that's more unit based rather than individual model based.

Why not make a special rule that allows a unit to assault from deep strike/reserves/infiltration? Like "Surprise Attack" or something, and only give it to the units such as Lictors and Genestealers, so that they can be scary to opponents. Maybe even for 1st turn allow overwatch on full BS to make it feel more fair.

Agreed, a USR for this would be nice. My wolf scouts have yet to see play, but in 5th I ran two squads decked out for CC. They were really good at destroying tanks and backfield firepower units when you could assault from outflank.

 evildrspock wrote:
Why not make a special rule that allows a unit to assault from deep strike/reserves/infiltration? Like "Surprise Attack" or something, and only give it to the units such as Lictors and Genestealers, so that they can be scary to opponents. Maybe even for 1st turn allow overwatch on full BS to make it feel more fair.

There very moment you dot hat those units will get spamed and armies like IG, become even more horrible to play. As much as I feel for people wanting to make this or that unit good, charge out of deep strike makes at least one faction automaticly unplayable.

This debate is another case where lack of granularity in 40K has ruined everything. Weapons like the scatter laser are intended (I guess) to have superior strength and ROF to a heavy bolter, but the problem is that on a D6, this means it wounds almost all infantry on a 2! This is why assault lists are melting before they get to do anything. Too many shots, with too high of STR, coming from too cheap of units that are mobile on top of it.

This makes the situation very bimodal: most assault units are in CC and okay and alive or they are not and they are shot to death. And that's why this poll is running 50/50, because many (I voted no) are sick of setting up and knowing they will lose before the first model is moved. At this point, IG might be acceptable losses to many players.

Martel, I agree that moving to a 2d6 system and having stats be from 1 to 20 would be a lot better for the game. I just can't see it happening, which is a shame.

Have marines with a bs of 8 but a Def 14, eldar with a bs of 7 but Def 15, and guard bs 6 but Def 12-13 would allow a better adherence to the fluff while still allowing for a balanced game.

Akiasura wrote:
Martel, I agree that moving to a 2d6 system and having stats be from 1 to 20 would be a lot better for the game. I just can't see it happening, which is a shame.

Have marines with a bs of 8 but a Def 14, eldar with a bs of 7 but Def 15, and guard bs 6 but Def 12-13 would allow a better adherence to the fluff while still allowing for a balanced game.

Remember Warzone? It had very good mechanics and very crappy models.

It makes sense to be able to assualt out of deep strike, fluff wise..you know the stone cold space marines flying in on drop pods to attack the filthy xenos head on...but i think they don't allow it for balance reasons.

I try not to use fluff for the justification for anything rules-wise.

Crimson Heretic wrote:
It makes sense to be able to assualt out of deep strike, fluff wise..you know the stone cold space marines flying in on drop pods to attack the filthy xenos head on...but i think they don't allow it for balance reasons.

Ok then I want the 2-3 days non stop artilery barrages, before combat starts. It is a standard IG tactic. I would even settle for two or three hours preliminary bombardment.

Makumba wrote:

Crimson Heretic wrote:
It makes sense to be able to assualt out of deep strike, fluff wise..you know the stone cold space marines flying in on drop pods to attack the filthy xenos head on...but i think they don't allow it for balance reasons.

Ok then I want the 2-3 days non stop artilery barrages, before combat starts. It is a standard IG tactic. I would even settle for two or three hours preliminary bombardment.

To be fair, the rulebook's reasoning for why assaulting out of deep strike isn't allowed is fluff. Bad fluff at that.

That's why its best to ignore all fluff. Because none of it makes sense and is inconsistent from edition to edition.

Me and my friends actually have this for a house rule, and from experience it is not a point-and-click win or too OP. These are just a brief skeleton of the rules we use:

Any unit arriving from DS may assault in the turn it does so. They must pass an Initiative test to do so. (I play daemonettes so theoretically very nasty, in actuality, NOT.)
Units may not assault from DS if they are equipped with ANY unwieldy weapons.
Units may not assault from DS if they disembarked from a vehicle (this includes Drop pods so no DP-SM spam)
Also, units assaulting in the turn they arrive may not shoot in the same turn (mitigates the nastiness they can throw out) but the enemy may still fire overwatch at them normally.

And there you have it. No fuss, simple and easy - not too OP and never really a game winner but it allows assault units a chance to make back their points if used cannily. With this system, they first have to pass an I test, and then roll to see whether they can charge the full distance, so depending on how close you are this may or may not be so useful.

I will accept assault from DS when my army can throw out Tau levels of Interceptor.... Or even actually has any Interceptor available.

Assault from DS will essentially be a massive fisting for almost any Guard player and seeing as we are almost unplayable at the present time I say no.

What's interesting is that vanguard could do this in 5th, but it was terrible because they cost so much.

 Drakeslayer wrote:
Me and my friends actually have this for a house rule, and from experience it is not a point-and-click win or too OP. These are just a brief skeleton of the rules we use:

Any unit arriving from DS may assault in the turn it does so. They must pass an Initiative test to do so. (I play daemonettes so theoretically very nasty, in actuality, NOT.)
Units may not assault from DS if they are equipped with ANY unwieldy weapons.
Units may not assault from DS if they disembarked from a vehicle (this includes Drop pods so no DP-SM spam)
Also, units assaulting in the turn they arrive may not shoot in the same turn (mitigates the nastiness they can throw out) but the enemy may still fire overwatch at them normally.

And there you have it. No fuss, simple and easy - not too OP and never really a game winner but it allows assault units a chance to make back their points if used cannily. With this system, they first have to pass an I test, and then roll to see whether they can charge the full distance, so depending on how close you are this may or may not be so useful.

How many people play IG among your friends?

Makumba wrote:

 Drakeslayer wrote:
Me and my friends actually have this for a house rule, and from experience it is not a point-and-click win or too OP. These are just a brief skeleton of the rules we use:

Any unit arriving from DS may assault in the turn it does so. They must pass an Initiative test to do so. (I play daemonettes so theoretically very nasty, in actuality, NOT.)
Units may not assault from DS if they are equipped with ANY unwieldy weapons.
Units may not assault from DS if they disembarked from a vehicle (this includes Drop pods so no DP-SM spam)
Also, units assaulting in the turn they arrive may not shoot in the same turn (mitigates the nastiness they can throw out) but the enemy may still fire overwatch at them normally.

And there you have it. No fuss, simple and easy - not too OP and never really a game winner but it allows assault units a chance to make back their points if used cannily. With this system, they first have to pass an I test, and then roll to see whether they can charge the full distance, so depending on how close you are this may or may not be so useful.

How many people play IG among your friends?

Coincidently, all his friends stopped playing IG around the same time.

 vipoid wrote:

Makumba wrote:

 Drakeslayer wrote:
Me and my friends actually have this for a house rule, and from experience it is not a point-and-click win or too OP. These are just a brief skeleton of the rules we use:

Any unit arriving from DS may assault in the turn it does so. They must pass an Initiative test to do so. (I play daemonettes so theoretically very nasty, in actuality, NOT.)
Units may not assault from DS if they are equipped with ANY unwieldy weapons.
Units may not assault from DS if they disembarked from a vehicle (this includes Drop pods so no DP-SM spam)
Also, units assaulting in the turn they arrive may not shoot in the same turn (mitigates the nastiness they can throw out) but the enemy may still fire overwatch at them normally.

And there you have it. No fuss, simple and easy - not too OP and never really a game winner but it allows assault units a chance to make back their points if used cannily. With this system, they first have to pass an I test, and then roll to see whether they can charge the full distance, so depending on how close you are this may or may not be so useful.

How many people play IG among your friends?

Coincidently, all his friends stopped playing IG around the same time.

I wonder why

I say that the majority of units should not assault after deep striking, however a few units should like the vanguard vets because fluff wide they were dropped off by thunder hawks so they could see what to engage with straight after land fall. But for units like termie they do not know what to expect right in front of them so they wouldn't know what do to do straight away as they would have to access things before engaging.

So my answer is no but certain elite and carefully selected units fluff wise should be allowed to assault as mentioned above.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Before any changes to DS assault, I'd like to see a baseline re-established where players are content to field basic troops. They're the most iconic units in the game, they ought to be a 'safe' choice rather than a tax or trap

I think this is the bigger issue in general.

When literally the only purpose for units like guardsmen is as body-blocking material and who's basic gun requires triple digits worth of shots to kill something like an RP Wraith or FNP'd TWC, units like Wyches are absolutely incapable against the elite units they were once designed to fight, and many similar issues, the game has a fundamental problem that goes away beyond "assault vs shooting". There's a major problem with the scales the game is played at.

The ever increasing scale of firepower, creation of high-T multiwound multiple-save fast units like TWC's and the asinine buffing of Necron Wraiths, inclusion of SH/GC units into just any game (and the odd inverse granularity of detail the game has with them) is causing an increasing number of issues.


There was a time when an S8 AP3 Large Blast Leman Russ Battlecannon was considered an extremely powerful and scary weapon that, at worst, you'd face 3 of (usually only 1 or 2). There was a time when a Carnifex was one of the biggest and scariest unit you'd ever see. There was a time when Lasguns weren't considered extraneous dice rolling. There was a time when a 3+ invul was almost nonexistent except on a couple of SC's and the game had a single 2+ invul save (that failed permanently once failed) and the idea of a 2++ rerollable save was purely the realm of internet hyperbole. The game really need to split at this point, and have normal 40k go back to the above paradigms, and an "Epic" version that's more unit based rather than individual model based.

Agreed.

Incidentally, I was remembering back in 5th - when the Psyfulman Dreadnought was considered the pinnacle of long-range anti-tank. How long ago that feels...

Holy crap the polls are tied! The no's were pulling ahead for a while there. What happened?

The way I see it, assaulting from deep strike is the logical answer to overwatch. Your opponent always gets a chance to shoot at you before you can attack.

Having to sit around for a round and get shot up nerfs too many units.

 techsoldaten wrote:
The way I see it, assaulting from deep strike is the logical answer to overwatch. Your opponent always gets a chance to shoot at you before you can attack.

Having to sit around for a round and get shot up nerfs too many units.

Eh. Overwatch isn't that strong.


You'd have to make overwatch at full bs to make it scary enough for REAL cc threats.

 techsoldaten wrote:
The way I see it, assaulting from deep strike is the logical answer to overwatch. Your opponent always gets a chance to shoot at you before you can attack.

This might have merit if overwatch was actually worth a damn.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Having to sit around for a round and get shot up nerfs too many units.

And only being able to overwatch a unit before they sweep you in combat will put a ton of shooty units on the shelf.

 vipoid wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Before any changes to DS assault, I'd like to see a baseline re-established where players are content to field basic troops. They're the most iconic units in the game, they ought to be a 'safe' choice rather than a tax or trap

I think this is the bigger issue in general.

When literally the only purpose for units like guardsmen is as body-blocking material and who's basic gun requires triple digits worth of shots to kill something like an RP Wraith or FNP'd TWC, units like Wyches are absolutely incapable against the elite units they were once designed to fight, and many similar issues, the game has a fundamental problem that goes away beyond "assault vs shooting". There's a major problem with the scales the game is played at.

The ever increasing scale of firepower, creation of high-T multiwound multiple-save fast units like TWC's and the asinine buffing of Necron Wraiths, inclusion of SH/GC units into just any game (and the odd inverse granularity of detail the game has with them) is causing an increasing number of issues.


There was a time when an S8 AP3 Large Blast Leman Russ Battlecannon was considered an extremely powerful and scary weapon that, at worst, you'd face 3 of (usually only 1 or 2). There was a time when a Carnifex was one of the biggest and scariest unit you'd ever see. There was a time when Lasguns weren't considered extraneous dice rolling. There was a time when a 3+ invul was almost nonexistent except on a couple of SC's and the game had a single 2+ invul save (that failed permanently once failed) and the idea of a 2++ rerollable save was purely the realm of internet hyperbole. The game really need to split at this point, and have normal 40k go back to the above paradigms, and an "Epic" version that's more unit based rather than individual model based.

Agreed.

Incidentally, I was remembering back in 5th - when the Psyfulman Dreadnought was considered the pinnacle of long-range anti-tank. How long ago that feels...

Right? A 135pt AV12 BS4 unit with 4 TL'd S8 AP4 shots used to be considered an undercosted, exceedignly capable anti-tank unit. Now such a unit would be considered thoroughly mediocre.

 techsoldaten wrote:
The way I see it, assaulting from deep strike is the logical answer to overwatch. Your opponent always gets a chance to shoot at you before you can attack.

Having to sit around for a round and get shot up nerfs too many units.

if Overwatch was actually capable, you might have a point. As is, in most cases, Overwatch typically fails to inflict a single wound. Even in a rather highly favorable overwatch situation, with say, 20 bolters against Wyches or Genestealers, you might average two kills? Unless the unit is loaded with template weapons that are particularly effective against the charging unit, Overwatch is overwhelmingly more of an annoyance than real functional CC defense.

Martel732 wrote:
What's interesting is that vanguard could do this in 5th, but it was terrible because they cost so much.

They also could only do it from jump packs (not drop pods), couldn't shoot at all, and couldn't do so with an IC attached, and thus couldn't really be used with any sort of shennanigans like teleport homers or IC buffs or anything.

I remember when having more than three Leman Russ in a 2K game was considered cheese and how the introduction of vehicle squadrons in the IG codex caused an uproar.

My how the times have changed

 techsoldaten wrote:
The way I see it, assaulting from deep strike is the logical answer to overwatch. Your opponent always gets a chance to shoot at you before you can attack.

Having to sit around for a round and get shot up nerfs too many units.

Except overwatch, for probably the majority of armies, is not that powerful.

As a thought exercise I thought I'd try to make the most brutal overwatch Tau army using a CAD I could.

Farsight and 7 man bodyguard with TL PR and CDS,14 Gun Drones.
Shas'o with TL PR and CDS, with 2 XV8 bodyguard with TL PR, CDS and 6 gun drones.
3 units of 3 XV8s with TL PR and CDS and 6 gun drones.
6 units of 12 Fire Warriors with 2 gun drones plus Devilfish with SMS and PDTR.
3 units of 12 Gun Drones
3 units of 3 Missilesides with CDS and 6 missile drones.

Now, assuming that somehow they are all in range for supporting fire, all in rapid fire range where applicable and the charging unit has no cover (so the absolute best circumstances for overwatch, even if that is physically impossible) this puts out:

196 twin linked S5 AP5 shots at BS1 (=13.3 wounds against MEQs)
168 S5 AP5 shots at BS1 (=6.2 wounds against MEQs)
38 Twin linked S6 AP2 shots at BS2 (=17.6 wounds against MEQs)
2 S6 AP2 shots at BS1 (=0.3 wounds against MEQs)
36 S7 AP4 shots at BS1 (=1.6 wounds against MEQs)
36 twin linked S7 AP4 shots at BS2 (=5.5 wounds against MEQs)

Which gives a grand total of 44.5 unsaved wounds.

It is also 4469 points

Might be more effective to switch out the standard Shas'o for an ethereal and use the Storm of Fire special ability to give all the fire warriors and gun drones an extra shot at half range but I really cannot be bothered to work that out right now

Yes, with limits, specifically what the deep strike is meant to represent - e.g. a Lictor is using the rule to represent being already there just hidden, so no reason not to assault, marines from a pod would logically need time to organise before striking.

Best way would to be to have a similar rule to Deep Strike, and have that rule allow assaulting, but be limited in what gets it - limited to small units who could approach unobserved until they got into overwatch then the assault, assassin type units

Oh wonderful. DS assaulting Eversor. Like that would not murder everything it hit and would totally not be spammed.