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topaxygouroun i wrote:
Of course the unit should be fine. You paid good points for that unit, having it die 50% of the time without even reaching the table is plain stupid. It is completely ridiculous that ranged shooting units have the same or even faster movement than melee assault units. What are the assault units even going to do?

I have no idea... My SoB have 24 range guns in infantry squads and lots of melta and flamers/Hflamers, but they're no faster than a marine or IG unit. CC armies have always been my bane even if they walk across the board (obviously we don't play on parking lots). I have to focus at least two units on one enemy CC unit and hope to bring it down before it gets in charge range. Yay, funny to be the close-range shooting army...

"I just do not get wy IG players can not just scatter 60 conscripts"

Well for a start you can only have a maximum of 50 per platoon and for another thing those 50 are costing you 100 points.
And those 100 points will vanish in an instant. I once had a unit of about 8 Warp Talons assault a 50 Conscript blob. Of the 12 or so survivors none inflicted a wound in return and the entire unit subsequently failed their morale test and where overrun.

Coincidentally that was around the time that I stopped using Conscripts.

Spetulhu wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Of course the unit should be fine. You paid good points for that unit, having it die 50% of the time without even reaching the table is plain stupid. It is completely ridiculous that ranged shooting units have the same or even faster movement than melee assault units. What are the assault units even going to do?

I have no idea... My SoB have 24 range guns in infantry squads and lots of melta and flamers/Hflamers, but they're no faster than a marine or IG unit. CC armies have always been my bane even if they walk across the board (obviously we don't play on parking lots). I have to focus at least two units on one enemy CC unit and hope to bring it down before it gets in charge range. Yay, funny to be the close-range shooting army...

SoB have a lot of problems anyways and too few units to have any decent options, but you can still outflank dominions in immolators and your Exorcists do have the sweet str 8 ap1 48" shots. You want to see close range shooting army, try tyranids. Basic weapon fires 18". And no transports whatsoever. Wow.

Well for a start you can only have a maximum of 50 per platoon and for another thing those 50 are costing you 100 points. And those 100 points will vanish in an instant.

Well, let them vanish in an instant, that's what I am talking about ablative wounds. That's what assault armies do for years now. Adding 2 Tyrant guards to walking Tyrants also costs 100 pts but Nid players do it (when they field walkrants, which is rare) and don't mention the cost, they are considering as extra tax to be payed if you want your unit to do its stuff. Same goes for hormagant swarms, adding fleshborer termagants to your devil squads, naked boyz in trukks, Chaos spawn whom only purpose is to die so that the jugger lord can reach combat, raptor squads having to buy MoS and Icon of excess just to maybe make it into combat etc etc etc. Assault armies/units are paying big points in ablative wounds and extra protection so that they may have a chance to reach combat. They still don't make it most of the time and the extra points spent strip them of other options they might have also. HtH armies pay a lot more than 100 pts to increase their chance to make it into combat. Shooting armies have it easy. This shouldn't be the case. A gunline player should also have to actually think about his positioning and movement phase and yes, pay extra points to protect the good units in his army just like assault armies do.

Oh also 8 warp talons have 16 attacks, 24 on the charge. Even if all of them charge with hammer of wrath available and ALL of them hit and wound with every single attack AND their HoW this is still 32 wounds, even if all of that happened you should have 18 guys left. And this include having 1 wound models with marine save that cost 30 pts each and don't even have grenades actually assault you from short range and you not doing one single wound with 100 overwatch attacks. Yeah, I'm not buying that.

Ablative wounds? 100 points for one turns worth of ablative wounds? Assuming that said Conscripts are not just gunned down anyway and end up fleeing through shooting casualties?

Tyrant Guards are actually capable of taking and tanking hits. Conscripts have been known to vanish in a single shooting phase.

I'd happily be able to assault from deepstriking especially if gw allowed daemons to treat csm icons as locator beacons

 master of ordinance wrote:
Ablative wounds? 100 points for one turns worth of ablative wounds? Assuming that said Conscripts are not just gunned down anyway and end up fleeing through shooting casualties?

Tyrant Guards are actually capable of taking and tanking hits. Conscripts have been known to vanish in a single shooting phase.

A tyrant guard has 2 wounds. Same points of conscripts have 25 wounds. If you are trying to convince me that 2 wounds are harder to get to than 25 then we will end up disagreeing hard, no matter the toughness or save. We are discussing conscripts to make your precious stuff safe from the supposed deep strike + assault. If your problem is that the enemy will "gun down" conscripts, you should rethink what you just said and thank your opponent for wasting their shooting. As for fleeing, I thought that's why IG had commissars, no? Besides you are still missing the point. Assault armies pay these extra points all the time, every time, they consider this part of the deal in the first place and they don't cry about spending extra, it's their way to get their guys to work. The fact that you are arguing about the conscript blitzkrieg for being expensive in an imaginary scenario that we are discussing and does not exist in the rules means that you have never found yourself in the place that you actually considered the thought of paying extra to keep your stuff safe as a normal list building choice. And that's saying a lot about our argument in itself.

And just how tough and well armoured is that 2 wound model?

 master of ordinance wrote:
And just how tough and well armoured is that 2 wound model?

T6 and a 3+ armor. Still dies many times before 25 wounds worth of dudes that claim a cover save from anything, go to ground or just spread around enough so that pieplates can only target 4 dudes at best. And you still fail to see the point. You get agitated that I suggest to use conscripts to bubble wrap your tanks. Yet I am completely ok with the thought of paying points for tyrant guards and an using my hormagants in units of 30 so that I can get 12 of them in combat at some point.

So in other words does not have to worry about every single weapon in the game?

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Yes, armies like IG would suffer from this at this point, although I still cannot understand why IG players cant' just spread 60 conscripts all around so that they create a wondrous bubble protection against Deep striking. If I have to add ablative wounds to all my units to protect them from shooting, then shooting armies should have to add ablative wounds to protect their gunlines from assault also.

There's several reasons. First and foremost, this is a trivially easy thing to break through. Second, Conscripts aren't just a unit on their own you can take, you have to take them as part of a Platoon, which necessitates taking other units as well. To take those 60 conscripts, you'd need 2 platoons (max 50 conscripts) at a minimum additional cost of 240pts over and above the 180pts you're paying for the conscripts. Additionally, if anyone is concerned at all with theme or fluff, then the Conscripts may not really have a place.

If taking a screen of Conscripts were a great, consistent, counter to deep striking units, people would already be doing it. They're not. Even if they were, being forced to spend lots of points in disposable meatshields who's sole purpose is to defend against a single mechanic is indicative of a broken mechanic (not to mention having to buy and paint and carry around a whole bunch of extra infantry).

 Vaktathi wrote:
Even if they were, being forced to spend lots of points in disposable meatshields who's sole purpose is to defend against a single mechanic is indicative of a broken mechanic (not to mention having to buy and paint and carry around a whole bunch of extra infantry).

Lol. This is EXACTLY what assault armies do since EVER to defend against a single mechanic (shooting). So what should we deduce about shooting then?

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Even if they were, being forced to spend lots of points in disposable meatshields who's sole purpose is to defend against a single mechanic is indicative of a broken mechanic (not to mention having to buy and paint and carry around a whole bunch of extra infantry).

Lol. This is EXACTLY what assault armies do since EVER to defend against a single mechanic (shooting). So what should we deduce about shooting then?

Not really in the same way. Sure, it's usually a good idea to buy extra bodies so units aren't running around at minimum size, but shooting units typically have to do the same thing. About the closest thing you might see is something like Orks running a screen of Grots for a cover save, but even that's not usually bothered with.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Ablative wounds? 100 points for one turns worth of ablative wounds? Assuming that said Conscripts are not just gunned down anyway and end up fleeing through shooting casualties?

Tyrant Guards are actually capable of taking and tanking hits. Conscripts have been known to vanish in a single shooting phase.

That's fine. The conscripts are there to force deep strikers to strike where you want them to.

Thinking about it to be honest while I'd love to be able to deep strike and Assault in the same turn I can understand why it's not allowed lol

New rule: don't allow assault deep striking when facing IG players. Personally, none of my friends play IG so we've never had any problems with the rule. We play SM, CSM, Daemons and Tyranids.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Ablative wounds? 100 points for one turns worth of ablative wounds? Assuming that said Conscripts are not just gunned down anyway and end up fleeing through shooting casualties?

Tyrant Guards are actually capable of taking and tanking hits. Conscripts have been known to vanish in a single shooting phase.

That's fine. The conscripts are there to force deep strikers to strike where you want them to.

Deepstriking is from turn two and onwards right? If the conscripts are blocking anywhere vital then they will have been dealt with by the end of turn one.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:Thinking about it to be honest while I'd love to be able to deep strike and Assault in the same turn I can understand why it's not allowed lol

Maybe try reading the thread as to gain a slightly better understanding as to why this is a terrible idea?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Ablative wounds? 100 points for one turns worth of ablative wounds? Assuming that said Conscripts are not just gunned down anyway and end up fleeing through shooting casualties?

Tyrant Guards are actually capable of taking and tanking hits. Conscripts have been known to vanish in a single shooting phase.

That's fine. The conscripts are there to force deep strikers to strike where you want them to.

Deepstriking is from turn two and onwards right? If the conscripts are blocking anywhere vital then they will have been dealt with by the end of turn one.

Master of Ordinance your being completely disingenuous... earlier in the thread you said

 master of ordinance wrote:
I voted no. NO. NO



Deepstriking is really strong - my army, Inquisitor and all, was tabled by a Grey Knight army that used the nemesis formation and dropped in. Did they assault? No, at least not at first. They just shot every unit of mine in the vicinity to gak. And THEN on turn two, after my responding fire killed not enough, they assaulted and pretty much tabled me. Right now both Assault and Deepstrike are too powerful. Deepstrike units tend to be damn tough and usually just bounce everything I throw at them (Someone earlier was going on about how an IG Veteran Section can kill an entire squad in one turn of shooting - someone whom was obviously talking out of their ass and has never faced IG before - even Melta vets will struggle to kill three MEQ's) whilst assault units basially laugh at me. Ooohh, scary overwatch. So much firepower, such nasty overpowered BS 1 lasguns. Really? I am lucky if I can even inflict a couple of hits and I can think of only one occasion when Overwatch actually did anything to my opponent (he lost A basic marine).

If you think deep-striking is a mechanic that is too powerful then just say that and leave it as is, don't continue to try and argue against an idea to fix some or all units... I think for some units being able to assault out of deep-strike would allow more variety into the game. I for one think that the balance of power in the game is heavily in shooting units favor. With the availability for mass strength at least 5 ap2 ranged weapons on the table or better right now any units designed to be assault heavy have to rely on psychic powers and invul saves. If the idea of some units being able to deep-strike and assault , even with scatter, variable charge length, over-watch, and interceptor then that is a problem in your list building. Furthermore, if you are going to argue about the ability to reduce scatter with war-gear, in most cases they have to be on the table before the start of the turn, giving you the chance to kill the models with the gear. Also if you think that your going to be decimated against deep-striking armies... there is a mechanic in the game that allows you to hopefully avoid most of the damage,its called reserves. What I have read from you in this thread is nothing but complaints as to how deep-strike is overpowered, your guardsmen die to easily.... to shooting attacks and you have little to no choices against assault units. Try something new, try out some of the ideas given in this thread. Hell try something other than arguing for arguments sake!

Deep striking without pods is total crap. Didn't work in 5th. Didn't work in 6th. Doesn't work now.

The only real issue at hand is pod alpha strike and GK shunt alpha strike. And for that, conscripts are perfect.

IG suffers mightily against true death stars, not jerk off units like meqs or teqs. Those units get drowned in a sea of plasma.

No, never. Assault is too strong, despite what many people think, and a 100% surefire way to deliver it to units weak in cc would break be too easy.

 Murenius wrote:
No, never. Assault is too strong, despite what many people think, and a 100% surefire way to deliver it to units weak in cc would break be too easy.

LOL, assault too strong. Yeah, my two whole marines that stagger into your untouched gun line are a real threat.

Martel732 wrote:

 Murenius wrote:
No, never. Assault is too strong, despite what many people think, and a 100% surefire way to deliver it to units weak in cc would break be too easy.

LOL, assault too strong. Yeah, my two whole marines that stagger into your untouched gun line are a real threat.

If only two Marines are making it in against a Guard gunline then you really are doing something wrong.

Or you are. I still say ig beats ba 55/100 times. Against lists with real assault units the ig are much worse off. But meqs arec a bad joke for assaulting.