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Allowing assault from deep-strike would be very helpful for my Khorne-raptor list. Alas, it's a broken and lazy mechanic that shouldn't exist. The only reason the BA's formation that allows it isn't broken and spammed is because of how incredibly expensive it is.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Sounds like a good solution, just one thing.

 insaniak wrote:
the 2nd edition style of 'Do it whenever you want instead of shooting in your shooting phase'.

What do you mean, whenever you want? Like during your opponent's phase or something? Never played 2E.

That's what he means, anytime you want (usually in the opponents turn). Note that a unit had to be set to overwatch and couldn't shoot in their own turn.

 Jayden63 wrote:
The excuse that its unfair to the shooting unit being tied up and not allowed to respond is stupid simply because there are currently DS shooty units that have the ability to erase whole units on the turn they land and the target got to do nothing in response.

What comes around, should be able to go around.

Or we could just address fixing those absurdly ridiculous DS units like Grav Centurions that most people agree are some sort of issue. There aren't a huge number of super scary DS shooting units, and most heavily-shooting focussed DS units are typically suicide squads. Aside from Grav-Centurions, there's not a whole lot of deep striking units that are going to routinely wipe out units unless we're talking weeny infantry being hit by flamers or tanks getting hit by meltaguns.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
The excuse that its unfair to the shooting unit being tied up and not allowed to respond is stupid simply because there are currently DS shooty units that have the ability to erase whole units on the turn they land and the target got to do nothing in response.

What comes around, should be able to go around.

Or we could just address fixing those absurdly ridiculous DS units like Grav Centurions that most people agree are some sort of issue. There aren't a huge number of super scary DS shooting units, and most heavily-shooting focussed DS units are typically suicide squads. Aside from Grav-Centurions, there's not a whole lot of deep striking units that are going to routinely wipe out units unless we're talking weeny infantry being hit by flamers or tanks getting hit by meltaguns.

The lowly Tac Squad can easily kill two units on the drop in many armies. Scourges, DE gunboats, Wraithguard in a DS transport, hordes of bugs in a bug drop pod, Sternguard, MT command squads, and IG vet squads can all easily kill an entire unit on the turn they Deep Strike. The ability of units to wipe another unit out right off the bat is all over the place for shooting units. I don't think giving a similar ability to assault units is going to break the game that much.

I'm fine with assaulting out of reserve, but out of DS is a bit much.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
The excuse that its unfair to the shooting unit being tied up and not allowed to respond is stupid simply because there are currently DS shooty units that have the ability to erase whole units on the turn they land and the target got to do nothing in response.

What comes around, should be able to go around.

Or we could just address fixing those absurdly ridiculous DS units like Grav Centurions that most people agree are some sort of issue. There aren't a huge number of super scary DS shooting units, and most heavily-shooting focussed DS units are typically suicide squads. Aside from Grav-Centurions, there's not a whole lot of deep striking units that are going to routinely wipe out units unless we're talking weeny infantry being hit by flamers or tanks getting hit by meltaguns.

The lowly Tac Squad can easily kill two units on the drop in many armies. Scourges, DE gunboats, Wraithguard in a DS transport, hordes of bugs in a bug drop pod, Sternguard, MT command squads, and IG vet squads can all easily kill an entire unit on the turn they Deep Strike. The ability of units to wipe another unit out right off the bat is all over the place for shooting units. I don't think giving a similar ability to assault units is going to break the game that much.

Unless we're talking particularly small squad sizes, and abnormally good dice luck, they're generally not going to be outright wiping most non-vehicle targets, and you can at least have some defenses against these types of things (aegis lines, jink, terrain cover, etc) that would generally do nothing against assaults.

Except that Aegis lines and terrain cover do do something to prevent assaults, since they make it harder to complete a charge, and may possibly inflict casualties on the chargers, depending on unit and terrain type. In addition, the charging unit will still suffer from Overwatch fire, which a Deep Striking shooting unit will never have to contend with.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Except that Aegis lines and terrain cover do do something to prevent assaults, since they make it harder to complete a charge, and may possibly inflict casualties on the chargers, depending on unit and terrain type. In addition, the charging unit will still suffer from Overwatch fire, which a Deep Striking shooting unit will never have to contend with.

Overwatch from most units typically has a negligible effect, even a unit like IG plasma vets has as much chance of hurting itself as it does an attacking unit with overwatch. Very few units can make anything meaningful of Overwatch. As for Aegis lines, they *can* slow an enemy down, however this would be less of an issue than a 4+ cover save would be for a shooting unit (especially if we're talking about something like Drop Pods where they can DS safely, and disembark 6" to get across the aegis line or right up to it).

Im sorry that the tau crisis wont work that well but every other codex has 3 to 4 units that are deep stike, good in cc and are absolutle useless. Assulting out of deep strike is good counter for all those heavy shooting gun lines that are so popular in this meta.
If yoy dont want a deep strike attack to hurt, deploy so it wont.
Nothing is perfect but every army Is able to compensate.
It might even bring those useless assault modes with all the dust on them back into the sunlight. One can only hope.
No deep strike assault on t1 is an auto include

worldwrekka wrote:
Im sorry that the tau crisis wont work that well but every other codex has 3 to 4 units that are deep stike, good in cc and are absolutle useless. Assulting out of deep strike is good counter for all those heavy shooting gun lines that are so popular in this meta.

It's not the heavy gunlnes that are the problem, one will notice that they're generally not placing anything remotely near the top in most events. It's generally armies with gobs of damage mitigation, speed, and psychic support, very often some sort of Deathstar component.

Now granted, most Tournaments also have their own missions and house rules, but in general, heavy shooting gunlines aren't dominating anything, if they were, you'd see a whole lot more IG armies than we typically do (I think the highest placing IG army of the year at any big tournament, that wasn't an allied meatbag contingent, was like 46th at the LVO out of 222 players, 67th at Adepticon out of like 186).

When you look at "power armies", you see multi-book SM armies of various flavors combining into a single big deathstar backed up by psyker support, penta-flyrants, Eldar jetbike spam, Decurions with Wraiths, etc, not IG/Tau style gunlines.

If yoy dont want a deep strike attack to hurt, deploy so it wont.

Kinda hard to do when deep strike can, by definition, come in just about anywhere, and then they get a 2d6" assault move to boot (or, with a pod, not only come in anywhere, but do so safely, and get a 6" disembark to boot). There are *some* things you can do to mitigate this, but they're hardly foolproof.


The issues with heavy CC units really need to be dealt with in a different way.

There might be a couple units that could warrant assault from Deep Strike, but they'd really have to be something like "can only come in turn 3+" or be *very* expensive.

 Vaktathi wrote:
When you look at "power armies", you see multi-book SM armies of various flavors combining into a single big deathstar backed up by psyker support, penta-flyrants, Eldar jetbike spam, Decurions with Wraiths, etc, not IG/Tau style gunlines

I took a look at the top 16 lists from NOVA. More than anything else I noticed there weren't any armies with a 4+ or worse armour save, and barely any T3 at all.

You might see a rebalancing in which units are considered useful (like Skyhammer ASM) but it terms of external balance it's not exactly a magic bullet.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
When you look at "power armies", you see multi-book SM armies of various flavors combining into a single big deathstar backed up by psyker support, penta-flyrants, Eldar jetbike spam, Decurions with Wraiths, etc, not IG/Tau style gunlines

I took a look at the top 16 lists from NOVA. More than anything else I noticed there weren't any armies with a 4+ or worse armour save, and barely any T3 at all.

You might see a rebalancing in which units are considered useful (like Skyhammer ASM) but it terms of external balance it's not exactly a magic bullet.

Yup, I think the only T3 units were Warp Spiders (sporting 3+sv's and Flickerjump) and Spore Clusters as min troops for Hexa-flyrants and some Summining Tzeentch daemons, almost no non-skimmer tanks except the 4th and 9th place Gladius Strike Forces, and huge numbers of fast-tough units like Bikes, TWC's, and Necron Wraiths.

Yes, but only Daemons of Khorne.

The size of the board and the amount of terrain makes a difference too. If you can DS units into seams where they can't be targeted, and who can then act freely on the following turn, it's a huge advantage over a bike/beast unit that needs to advance for an extended time through a killzone.

As it is, if there's no backfield vulnerability to take advantage of, and the table is so short the advantages of minimizing your exposure through DS is negligible, what's the point? We could arguably balance shooty DS alpha strikers by making Interceptor more common. How much of the game should revolve around who can null deploy more effectively and who gets the turn sequence they want, anyway?

A lot of units can be affected by issues that don't translate directly from the codex (like the poor Basilisk), and DS'ers are definitely among them.

Why has no body discussed interceptors and the effect they have on deep strikers/ all reserves... I find it funny that this little tidbit gets ignored while at the same time people are saying that allowing assault out of deep strike is unfair. There are mechanics; rules wise, unit wise and tactics wise to effectively shut down an assault out of deep strike unit/army. I should know I have run the Angels Fury Spearhead Force and in many games is does not matter at all.

Would work just fine if it was limited and done in a way you can't abuse it. But just allowing it straight up to a unit would probably cause those units to get spammed and clog up another players important units from shooting/moving.

Then again, it would also shift the meta more on the melee side ( which is now all but nonexistent, shooting is king ) and that'd be great.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Why has no body discussed interceptors and the effect they have on deep strikers/ all reserves?

Well, because the conversation on dakka doesn't reflect game design. In design, you start with an experience you want to deliver, then write rules to deliver that experience. Discussion focuses around a common goal, the fulfillment of a unified vision.

On dakka, people don't share the same views at all of how the game should operate. So we disagree easily, and dialog deteriorates quickly into snide jabs and pissy comments for certain individuals who their ego is at stake.

Or was that a rhetorical question you asked?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Runic wrote:
Then again, it would also shift the meta more on the melee side ( which is now all but nonexistent, shooting is king ) and that'd be great.

The other question is competition and role redundancy between units that either move in transports, or by bikes or mounts.

Typically the best choice will make the other two obsolete, which is a factor in deciding the pros and cons of enabling Deep Strike assault.

There's plenty of strong melee stuff, looking at most tournament results, melee units feature rather heavily, and in fact many of the top lists are heavily centered around melee units.

What seems to be the most constant thing however is that multi-save, multi-wound and/or T5+ units, typically with some sort of HQ and Psyker support, and formation freebies, are dominating. Some of these can be shooting based, such as Farsight blobs allied in with something like Eldar, some of them can be heavily melee based, like TWC deathstars or Necron Wraiths, some can be both like like Ravenwing and other Biker deathstars.

In general however, it's those units that have solid mobility and resiliency through multiple wounds and/or high toughness, and that always get to take a save of some sort, that seem to be consistently showing very strongly, regardless of their shootiness or choppiness.

Yes but limited to Terminators and their equivalents of other armies.

I don't get it. In some threads, Necrons are unkillable, Flayed Ones butccher anything, and everyone complains. Here, Flayed Ones are terrible because they just get shot up.

?

100% NO

Honestly? Yes. It's the only way some units have a chance with the amount of sheer firepower that armies can bleed out now. Assault is terrible now, and this would give some units (Genestealers, Lictors, ext) the boost they need. Also, being able to pile into another combat after killing a unit in assault.

Some very few units getting to assault from reserves wouldn't be terrible. I use to run my vanguard vets in 5th, using heroic intervention to assault from ds. They weren't very efficient, they came in on a random turn, and unless I had something else down field where they were landing with locator beacon, I had to worry about scatter/mishap. They were hardly game breaking, and the premium you paid for them prevented spamming them.

Skyhammer formation allows two units to assault from ds. Combined with a giant heap of other rules. After all the doom and gloom dust settled, it isn't as bad as everyone thought it was. Yes that formation can be powerful, but assault marines aren't cc beasts. The only reason the assault marines aren't a tax on that formation is the first round buff.

Honestly, if assault marines could assault from ds, would they see much more play? Maybe a bit, in some more gimmick list. Give terminators this ability and suddenly DW becomes "omg op".

Giving a few under rated/powered units some ds or just regular reserve charge abilities wouldn't be game breaking. It would all be in the execution that would make or break it.

Wyches and Hellions desperately need to be able to assault from Reserve. (Preferably DS as well.)

 Jimsolo wrote:
Wyches and Hellions desperately need to be able to assault from Reserve. (Preferably DS as well.)

Exactly. They need something to not be a waste of plastic.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Wyches and Hellions desperately need to be able to assault from Reserve. (Preferably DS as well.)

Or they need a banshee mask type item, assualt from reserves or DS is just a bad idea

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Wyches and Hellions desperately need to be able to assault from Reserve. (Preferably DS as well.)

Or they need a banshee mask type item, assualt from reserves or DS is just a bad idea

Hardly. Overwatch, Interceptor, and random charge range all put extra penalties on the assaulter that shooters don't suffer, so it's hard to say one is broken and the other isn't.

Of course, scatter makes yet another hurdle to cross.

Even if you gave both units DS assault right now, they still wouldn't be great. It would elevate them off the pine to the point that someone might field them again, but it certainly isn't going to break them.

So why change the rules to let them assault from deep strike?

Why not instead change the rules to give those units an actual useful role in an army?

Both are in dire need of some actual bite. if wyches are going to get shredded by anything that so much as sneezes in their direction, then they'd be better be damn good when they reach combat. So, what do they get? S3 attacks with no special rules. Thunderwolves eat your heart out.

So, hellions, would you like the HoW, special weapons and toughness of reavers? Tough. Instead, you get to be really, really fragile with basically no defence whatsoever and your only offence is S4 attacks. No, you can't have 2 attacks each - what do you think you are, a melee unit?

Again, neither of these units need to be able to assault from reserves. What they need is to be competently designed. At some point, GW got it into their heads that DE units should be really fragile *and* really pathetic offensively. You know, the exact opposite of what a glass cannon is supposed to be.

When they're prepared to have units that are more fragile than eldar, marines etc. but his *harder* to compensate, then DE (including Wyches, Hellions and such) will be fine.

What if you gave ds units a 1d6 charge instead of 2d6? Then even if they landed 1 inch away, if you were in cover, -2 penalty would mean they only have a 2/3 chance of making it.

Once again still not everything ds and charge, just a few units. I'd like to say 1 or 2 for each army, but I wouldn't know which ones to pick for each.

Assault from Deep Strike is too much. Assault from Outflank is a happy medium I think.