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This came up in a thread, and I thought I'd give it its own topic.

So, should units be able to assault on the same turn they arrive via deep strike?

Not everyone, but some units should be able to

Yes but very limited. No generic marines, no eldar, no tau (lol maybe tau) no necrons. Certain nids aka stealers, certain orks aka red skulls, maybe CSM, maybe DoC. Maaaaybe space wolves and BAs but they would need to keep this from being the new cents everyone just splashes for.

Not sure how anyone would go about sorting that mess out but it would definitely be game altering, and potentially in a good way IMO.
Currently there is no incentive to bring assault/counter assault, meanwhile powerhouse ranged units are free to drop in and erase 1+ units with ease and without reprise. Let the assault side have similar and for once give it to a faction that needs it.

Warp talons might actually get used once in awhile if they could...They would still suffer from no grenades though

No. Assault is actually very powerful inherently (can't be shot at, can attack in both player's turns, prevents enemy unit from moving or shooting, can sweeping advance even off a single wound, can do all of this to multiple enemy units with multi-charging). The only problem assault has is actually getting to combat which is why the more reliable shooting ends up being better in most cases. But the few units that can get to assault reliably (because of durability and/or mobility) are extremely strong as a result.

Allowing deep strike assaulting is bad because it removes pretty much any counter play to deal with it. It basically lets the deep striker pick what units they want to remove from the game (either by killing it or just tarpitting it) and lets them do it for free.

Only my units should be able to.

dominuschao wrote:
meanwhile powerhouse ranged units are free to drop in and erase 1+ units with ease and without reprise. Let the assault side have similar and for once give it to a faction that needs it.

This is no where near as powerful as letting a unit assault out of deep strike. For one a shooting unit only does damage to a single unit at a time which is no where near close to the list of things assault units get to do (can't be shot at, can attack in both player's turns, prevents enemy unit from moving or shooting, can sweeping advance even off a single wound, can do all of this to multiple enemy units with multi-charging). And second of all anything a shooting unit can do when deep striking can be done by a unit that was already on the board (such as blowing up a tank)

Assaulting from deepstrile is a bad idea. Maybe assaulting from infiltrate and scout if you went second could work, but having turn one charges with no chance of retaliation is not fair or interactive so no.

 CrownAxe wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
meanwhile powerhouse ranged units are free to drop in and erase 1+ units with ease and without reprise. Let the assault side have similar and for once give it to a faction that needs it.

This is no where near as powerful as letting a unit assault out of deep strike. For one a shooting unit only does damage to a single unit at a time which is no where near close to the list of things assault units get to do (can't be shot at, can attack in both player's turns, prevents enemy unit from moving or shooting, can sweeping advance even off a single wound, can do all of this to multiple enemy units with multi-charging). And second of all anything a shooting unit can do when deep striking can be done by a unit that was already on the board (such as blowing up a tank)

Well, isn't that true of assault? A unit on the board can assault and do that list of things you said they can do.

Assault from reserves such as outflanking I think is fine but not from Deep Striking. You can somewhat counter play against outflanking (don't sit near the board edge) but very few things can stop a deep striking unit from appearing anywhere they want on the board. Only certain special cases should be made for assault from deepstrike (and they should be weaker assault units).

I think the poll would be better with a conditional response.

Should all units get to assault from DS with no other rule changes, absolutely not. Assault is inherently more powerful than shooting. It is in fact at least 2 times more powerful as you can kill units in both your assault phase and the enemies assault phase.

However if you allowed units to shoot full BS overwatch at units assaulting from reserves and didn't allow multi charges then it would be fine for essentially all units.

Alternatively you just allow limited units and formations to charge from reserves, aka what is currently being done.

Absolutely, it has to be allowed in order to not gimp stuff like Terminators, Assault Marines, Warp Talons and so on and really there's no good reason to not allow it.
There's all these complaints about "oh you can't get shot" and "there's no counter!" and such, forgetting about overwatch, screwing up charges and how units in Assault are probably getting hit back and in the handful of circumstances where they're not (for example, hitting vehicles), they have no protection against getting shot and such. Not to mention the inherent unreliability of Deep Striking.
The only issue might be charging out of Pods, but there are better ways to deal with that.

Rihgu wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
meanwhile powerhouse ranged units are free to drop in and erase 1+ units with ease and without reprise. Let the assault side have similar and for once give it to a faction that needs it.

This is no where near as powerful as letting a unit assault out of deep strike. For one a shooting unit only does damage to a single unit at a time which is no where near close to the list of things assault units get to do (can't be shot at, can attack in both player's turns, prevents enemy unit from moving or shooting, can sweeping advance even off a single wound, can do all of this to multiple enemy units with multi-charging). And second of all anything a shooting unit can do when deep striking can be done by a unit that was already on the board (such as blowing up a tank)

Well, isn't that true of assault? A unit on the board can assault and do that list of things you said they can do.

I can shoot units with weapons from my deployment zone

I can't charge a unit from my deployment zone

You can't shoot a tank with a Meltagun from your deployment zone.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
meanwhile powerhouse ranged units are free to drop in and erase 1+ units with ease and without reprise. Let the assault side have similar and for once give it to a faction that needs it.

This is no where near as powerful as letting a unit assault out of deep strike. For one a shooting unit only does damage to a single unit at a time which is no where near close to the list of things assault units get to do (can't be shot at, can attack in both player's turns, prevents enemy unit from moving or shooting, can sweeping advance even off a single wound, can do all of this to multiple enemy units with multi-charging). And second of all anything a shooting unit can do when deep striking can be done by a unit that was already on the board (such as blowing up a tank)

Well, isn't that true of assault? A unit on the board can assault and do that list of things you said they can do.

I can shoot units with weapons from my deployment zone

I can't charge a unit from my deployment zone

Both of those statements are not true in all cases. Wraithblades with D-Scythes cannot shoot an enemy unit in the enemy deployment zone from their deployment zone. Very mobile units can charge from their deployment zone or can charge enemies that have advanced.

Please no.

I have multiple armies that would be able to use this ability to great effect, both GK's and CSM's, but this is not something the game needs.

Being able to hop in from deep strike and straight into an assault anywhere, often on turn 1 for many armies, is way too point-click-win.

As someone else stated, if you're playing Tau or IG against something an army with even just a couple deep-strike-assault units, you might as well just not bother setting up.

I think yes, but it shouldn't be compatible with scatterless DS. Not every unit should have it, either. But certain armies are supposed to be all about striking from nowhere before the enemy realizes what is happening to them, and should be able to represent that better on the field.

That being said, almost all my lists are DS heavy lists, so I'm about as biased as it gets.

Rihgu wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
meanwhile powerhouse ranged units are free to drop in and erase 1+ units with ease and without reprise. Let the assault side have similar and for once give it to a faction that needs it.

This is no where near as powerful as letting a unit assault out of deep strike. For one a shooting unit only does damage to a single unit at a time which is no where near close to the list of things assault units get to do (can't be shot at, can attack in both player's turns, prevents enemy unit from moving or shooting, can sweeping advance even off a single wound, can do all of this to multiple enemy units with multi-charging). And second of all anything a shooting unit can do when deep striking can be done by a unit that was already on the board (such as blowing up a tank)

Well, isn't that true of assault? A unit on the board can assault and do that list of things you said they can do.

I can shoot units with weapons from my deployment zone

I can't charge a unit from my deployment zone

Both of those statements are not true in all cases. Wraithblades with D-Scythes cannot shoot an enemy unit in the enemy deployment zone from their deployment zone. Very mobile units can charge from their deployment zone or can charge enemies that have advanced.

You are missing the point. My point was countering the idea that "shooting gets to deep strike and shoot with out repercussions so why can't assault?" by pointing out that shooting already can do that while on the table (such as shooting a long range weapon from outside range of the opponent or staying behind BLoS terraina and shooting barrage) and its not breaking the game a result because shooting is very simply "target one unit and deal damage to it. Assault in no way gets to do anything like that because they have to walk up the table and be prone for at least one turn giving your opponent a chance to respond which is important because assault is way more powerful then shooting is (as i've listed all the benefits asaualt has twice already),

I agree there needs to be some changes to the assault rules. But assault out of DS is not one of them.

I can see arguments for certain units to be allowed to do so. But army wide, no. Vehicle or special character ability... Ohh Hell No! (especially on something that can be taken and abused with allies)

No. People should start putting more terrain on the board!

ansacs wrote:Alternatively you just allow limited units and formations to charge from reserves, aka what is currently being done.

And that sucks, you get the ability in one stupid cheesy Pay-To-Win formation and everything else that needs it is left out in the cold. Better to just say units DSing without a Vehicle get to choose between Shooting and Assaulting that turn and keeping the "cannot charge out of a vehicle on the turn it arrives from reserves" rule to stop the theoretical Pod abuse that people seem to be zeroed in on. The Overwatch bonus mentioned might be a solid idea, though full BS might be too much, maybe +1 to their Overwatch BS might be less crazy.

Vaktathi wrote:I have multiple armies that would be able to use this ability to great effect, both GK's and CSM's, but this is not something the game needs.

It absolutely is, no doubt and no question about it. There are many Deep Striking CC units like Assault Marines, Warp Talon and all kinds of Terminator that are gimp by this stupid mistake and there's no way they can properly function without it.

Vaktathi wrote:Being able to hop in from deep strike and straight into an assault anywhere, often on turn 1 for many armies, is way too point-click-win.

No more than the shooty variant, in fact much less because you don't have to worry about making the charge, getting Overwatch or getting crushed by the unit you're hitting (potentially before you get to swing) in order to unload your Flamers/Meltas/Grav/etc.
What are you more afraid of, Assault Marines rushing you or Devastator Centurions giving you a face full of Grav Cannon?

CrownAxe wrote:You are missing the point. My point was countering the idea that "shooting gets to deep strike and shoot with out repercussions so why can't assault?" by pointing out that shooting already can do that while on the table (such as shooting a long range weapon from outside range of the opponent or staying behind BLoS terraina and shooting barrage) and its not breaking the game a result because shooting is very simply "target one unit and deal damage to it. Assault in no way gets to do anything like that because they have to walk up the table and be prone for at least one turn giving your opponent a chance to respond which is important because assault is way more powerful then shooting is (as i've listed all the benefits asaualt has twice already),

Your point is wrong. Most guns definitely do have a finite range and many have a VERY short range. Letting people jump in and Flamer/Melta is no different than letting them jump in and punch people.

And as a general thing since it's a point that doesn't seem to be sinking in, if charging out of Drop Pods and the like is the concern that's easily worked around as mentioned above.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
No. People should start putting more terrain on the board!

Terrain has absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

The main argument against assaulting from Deep Strike was the fact that the enemy doesn't get any chance to respond to the unit's arrival before they wind up locked in combat, which is a bit of a blow to shooty armies.

Overwatch theoretically should have removed that issue...

For mine, Overwatch shooting should be more effective, but not automatic (say, hit at normal BS, but require a Leadership or Initiative test), and it should revert to the 2nd edition style of 'Do it whenever you want instead of shooting in your shooting phase'.

With that in place, I would have no issue with units assaulting from Deep Strike.

Sounds like a good solution, just one thing.

 insaniak wrote:
the 2nd edition style of 'Do it whenever you want instead of shooting in your shooting phase'.

What do you mean, whenever you want? Like during your opponent's phase or something? Never played 2E.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I have multiple armies that would be able to use this ability to great effect, both GK's and CSM's, but this is not something the game needs.

It absolutely is, no doubt and no question about it.

Well, there is or it wouldn't be so controversial. Playing armies that would benefit from this, I can see exactly how absurd this could turn out to be, the level of thought required to break a Tau army with GK's with this ability would be nonexistent, the army would play itself. DS in with everything turn 1, if even just half my DS'ing units can make it in, the game will be over as the Tau player will likely be down 3-4 units (probably fairly critical ones) between shooting and the assaults. Anything like a Hammerhead might as well just not get deployed if it's not completely surrounded by bubble wrap (that also can't be broken through by other means).

There are many Deep Striking CC units like Assault Marines, Warp Talon and all kinds of Terminator that are gimp by this stupid mistake and there's no way they can properly function without it.

It's not a mistake, in cases where it's been allowed, it quickly kills interest in the game. Does anyone remember Planetstrike? No, it was a terrible, one-sided mess that, more often than not, ended with games being decided by the end of turn 2.

This isn't just a thoughtstorming exercise, it's something that's been tested in the past and resulted in disaster.

No more than the shooty variant, in fact much less because you don't have to worry about making the charge, getting Overwatch or getting crushed by the unit you're hitting (potentially before you get to swing) in order to unload your Flamers/Meltas/Grav/etc.
What are you more afraid of, Assault Marines rushing you or Devastator Centurions giving you a face full of Grav Cannon?

Overwatch from most units might as well not exist for all the good it does. The difference between assault and shooting is that most defensive measures are irrelevant. LoS and cover can be used to castle against shooting, but having a sweet cover save doesn't mean squat against close combat.

For something like a vehicle heavy IG army, particularly against something like GK's or SM's that can DS turn 1, this would literally be a turn 2 tabling routinely. They don't get to fight back, they don't get to overwatch, they're hit on 3's on rear armor, multi-assaults can be very easy and still extremely effective (who cares about losing the +1 charge attack when you're attacking with grenades, or have more than enough attacks in the first place at S6/8 to make it irrelevant?) and Aegis lines or cover would be largely irrelevant save for the sole impediment of possibly slowing an assault move (which, from drop pods, would likely be totally irrelevant between safe DS and 6" disembark).

Your point is wrong. Most guns definitely do have a finite range and many have a VERY short range. Letting people jump in and Flamer/Melta is no different than letting them jump in and punch people

Except the flamer/melta has to land pretty much exactly right, and is a relatively specialized tool. Most DS'ing assault units are going to have more wiggle room thanks to having an additional assault move, and usually better choice of targets as they'll have weapons that are effective against a wide array of units, In the case of the melta, they also have to worry about armor facing and cover saves, CC attacks get to hit rear armor and do not allow cover saves. Lets also not forget that if you could pair assaults with DS, you could often use both of these weapons *AND* follow it up with an assault.

I think it could be simplified to allow any action after deepstrike. Deep strike in withthe usual scatter rules. Then take an initiave test with -1 modifer onthe result. Pass, move, shoot, assault whatever. Fail and the unit is stunned. No action what-so-ever. Easy peasy

worldwrekka wrote:
I think it could be simplified to allow any action after deepstrike. Deep strike in withthe usual scatter rules. Then take an initiave test with -1 modifer onthe result. Pass, move, shoot, assault whatever. Fail and the unit is stunned. No action what-so-ever. Easy peasy

That will penalise low initative units so hard that it would make such units pointless to deep strike.

Tau Crisis and Stealth suits, for example, become totally useless when Deep Striking thanks to their low Initiative despite it being a manoeuvre that they regularly use in fluff. \they would literally only have a 1/6 chance to be able to do anything after landing, not to mention potential mishaps with scatter.

Space Marines of all types, on the other hand, still have at least a 50% chance to be able to act after arrival and now their possible actions are increased.

Yes, they should be able to do it... IF Deep Strike was more dangerous like it was in 3rd edition! Make it that mishaps occur if any model lands in dangerous terrain, and make mishaps kill the unit on a 3 or less.

As it stands now, most expensive melee-oriented units are terrible, deep strike or not. Terminators/MANZ, Melee-dreads, melee Carnifex, Flayed Ones, Melee Obliterators, etc are all horrible units that will typically try to "sneak" their way across the table only to get blown away by the nearest scatbike or grav gun that glances their direction.

Carefully applying assault from DS is one way to help alleviate this problem, but I don't think it's the only solution (nor is it a solution that will work in all cases). Consider how most people treated Assault Marines as garbage until the new formation came out - suddenly everyone was crying about how OP Assault Marines were in that context. If applying assault from deepstrike like that caused such a radical swing in opinion, surely there must be a middle ground where we can have meaningful assault units (e.g. they don't show up and roll face immediately, nor do they slog across the board and die before doing anything).

I must say, it was one of my biggest 40k disappointments when I learned that DSing a squad of melee terminators next to (or into) an enemy squad - aka the big thing they're known for in the fluff - was less effective and more expensive compared to just deleting something with podded Sternguard 99% of the time. Sadly, it's immersion breaking nonsense like this that has pushed me out of the game...

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Sounds like a good solution, just one thing.

 insaniak wrote:
the 2nd edition style of 'Do it whenever you want instead of shooting in your shooting phase'.

What do you mean, whenever you want? Like during your opponent's phase or something? Never played 2E.

I think it's like Necromunda. You skip your shooting phase to 'go on overwatch,' essentially allowing you to interrupt your opponent's turn to fire with that unit.

The excuse that its unfair to the shooting unit being tied up and not allowed to respond is stupid simply because there are currently DS shooty units that have the ability to erase whole units on the turn they land and the target got to do nothing in response.

What comes around, should be able to go around.

However, having said that, I think the rule that no assaulting on turn 1 is a good one. The ability to assault out of DS would not over write this one.