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If IKs have 24 wounds, then it would take 4 lucky lascannon shots to down a knight. By lucky I mean rolling 6s on a d6 for damage.

If a marine already shoots on a 3+ then it is 66% to hit.
If the lascannon is str9 and the IKs is t8 then again its a 66% to wound.
The ap-3 will negate the IKs armor save and it will need the 5++ invul of 33% to save. That means a 66% to fail and let the wound go through.

Now its d6 for damage. There is a 16.5% to get a 6s.

So the equation is (.66)x(.66)x(.66)x(.165)=.0459
Each lascannon has a small 4.6% chance to donk 6wounds off a knight. It maybe a small chance but its still there. If you are real lucky to get 4 6s on the damage rolls unsaved during 1 shooting phase then you just achieved a .000447% chance statistic.

However you dont need luck if you are a cheater who knows how to roll 6s 100% of the time with dexterous hand manipulation. By that i mean you cheaters who spin the dice with so the top facing 6 is stablized by centrifugal force as it slides on the table not flipping over. Yes you cheaters who spin the dice like a top to get it land on a 6.

 mmzero252 wrote:
Keep dreaming. They won't restrict units just because you want to whine about big walkers in matched play.

At this point, virtually anything is possible.

We know for a fact that null deploys are not an option in matched play.

We also know that there are points restrictions for super heavies in 30k.

It's completely possible that there are points restrictions on using IKs, wraithknights, etc.

We'll just have to wait and see.

There's not going to be any restrictions on Matched Play, seeing as they weren't restricted in 7th or 6th and weren't broken then.

They need to make that wraith knight 400pts barebones.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There's not going to be any restrictions on Matched Play, seeing as they weren't restricted in 7th or 6th and weren't broken then.

If there are points restrictions, you understand that I'm going to quote this posting and mock you later, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, the more I think of it, the more the sneak peaks scream "Restrictions in matched play."

There are no options to take a LoW in any of the three detachments they showed us before.

Why give us the option to take 3-5, but not one?

Curious.

Very curious.

Because we've only seen 4/12 Detachments?

Like in 30k, there will most likely be a 1 LoW Detachment (or maybe a 1-2 LoW Detachment) that likely gives 0 extra Command Points.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Because we've only seen 4/12 Detachments?

Like in 30k, there will most likely be a 1 LoW Detachment (or maybe a 1-2 LoW Detachment) that likely gives 0 extra Command Points.

Maybe.

Or maybe that's the only LoW detachment, and it's only accessible in games above 2k points!

one thing to keep in mind is that We're proably not supposed to be killing an IK in a single turn over all, survivability seems to be a little better in 40k, I think the system is being designed specificly to avoid losing that b ig expensive 100+ dollar centerpeice unit on the first turn before it can do much of anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Because we've only seen 4/12 Detachments?

Like in 30k, there will most likely be a 1 LoW Detachment (or maybe a 1-2 LoW Detachment) that likely gives 0 extra Command Points.

Maybe.

Or maybe that's the only LoW detachment, and it's only accessible in games above 2k points!

I doubt that and hope not. the most common deployment of an IK tends to be a single centerpiece to an army. also keep in mind that IKs are NOT the only Lord of War out there. we'll need a single LoW option for a number of other legit LOW options out there.

even if some of the chapter masters (such as Calgar) that where raised up to LOW status are dropped back down to HQs, chances are Gulliman will remain a LOW. and I really don't wanna have to take a pair of knights even time I wanna take Gulliman

Also, this game has lost its rock-paper-scissors aspect. Your lascannon are NOT a hard counter to a knight, they're simply more efficient at taking one down than some other weapons.

An imperial knight is not the counter to marines either because their weapons systems are no longer invalidated by the durability of the knight and they'll have more command points to skew the odds in their favor on the tabletop.

Like when you take into account that every phase you could reroll a bad damage roll, or failed hit, or failed save to keep a lascannon alive.

Also, are you prepared to scream "op!!!" At land raiders for their damage output and durability? They'll be able to ram and will have melee units inside as well. 4 lascannon shots, 6 heavy bolters shots, 1 multimedia, and one stormbolter all at different targets to allow for prioritizing targets effectively while pushing downfield with AT LEAST the same durability as the knight.

Or is it simply because the knight USED to be a different classification of vehicle and you can't let go of past prejudices? Remember, it is highly likely you will see maxed out options for elites, fast attack, and heavy support with minimal command points requirements just like the one for lords of war. (Think blitz brigade, and the various piles of tanks the multiformation detachment allowed)

lol
Calm down

I think if the missions are balanced correctly, IK's might be ok. You might not have to kill any to win. Also, I think it is important to note that I am sure they play tested Ik versus TAC lists. To me, that seems like one of the most basic stress tests to evaluate.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:An imperial knight is not the counter to marines either because their weapons systems are no longer invalidated by the durability of the knight

Bull

Did you see those numbers that I came up with earlier?

If "27'" is not a number that essentially invalidates melta, then I have no idea what the such a number would be.

they'll have more command points to skew the odds in their favor on the tabletop.

We have no idea if that's even true. Currently, the all LoW detachment gets exactly the same number of command points as the batallion detachment.

Also, are you prepared to scream "op!!!" At land raiders for their damage output and durability?

Let me be clear:

I'm not screaming "op!!!" simply because of the stats. I'm screaming "op!!!" because of the power level comparisons between tactical marines (or even rubric marines) and the Imperial Knight.

According to GW, an Imperial Knight has the same power level as 23 tactical marines.

According to GW, an Imperial Knight is actually slightly WEAKER than 15 rubric marines.

That's bull

If the IK had those exact stats and capabilities, but had a much higher power level, you wouldn't be hearing me complaining. The problem is that GW has, at least apparently, gravely undervalued the power level of the Imperial Knight (which is apparently a problem in AoS: GW apparently undervalues MCs in AoS also; ask AoS players, they will tell you as much).

If the landraider can fire 4 lascannon shots and 6 heavy bolter shots per turn, has 24 wounds, a 2+ armor save, has amazing close combat stats, and can transport a detachment of IKs within its hull, and GW assigns it a power level of 23? You can bet your that I'll be screaming "OP!" about that too.

ok tradio, you're absoilutely right, 8th edition is going to suck, best leave the game now, can I have your stuff?

So I'm curious BTW, how often do you see full Imperial Knight armies right now? I don't mean "theoreticly" I mean, how often do you go down to the local gaming club, store etc and see people standing around asking if you wanna play a game and then fishing out 4+ knights?

BrianDavion wrote:
ok tradio, you're absoilutely right, 8th edition is going to suck, best leave the game now, can I have your stuff?

So I'm curious BTW, how often do you see full Imperial Knight armies right now? I don't mean "theoreticly" I mean, how often do you go down to the local gaming club, store etc and see people standing around asking if you wanna play a game and then fishing out 4+ knights?

I don't play in tournaments on principle. So whereas I am fairly sure that they have been played, I haven't played against IK spam lists.

I've played two games that involved IKs. One was a 2 v 2. The IK player was on my team, and on the other side was...fire dragons.

The second time was also a 2 v 2 (500/500 vs. 500/500). The same IK player had the nerve to put an IK on the table.

The fact that you consider 4+ Knight something you'd normally see at a tournament level is telling .

You don't tend to see such lists at tournaments at all because they don't rate very high when it comes to killing power, survivability and playing the mission objectives.

Hopefully the kneejerking to knights can finally stop at any rate.

 n0t_u wrote:
Hopefully the kneejerking to knights can finally stop at any rate.

You underestimate their Knee reflexes.

Command points is army multiplier.

Lets say we have 1500pts game: 3 IK got 3 cp, while the IG player with standart FOC got 6.

IG player has about dozen units for this 6 cp, while knight player only 3. IG player have to spend CP to mitigate battleshock test to not lose his platoon after gatling grinding, while IK player literally has immune to this game mechanic.

CP spend as reroll for the knight (reroll for a charge distance, for example) is a buff for 33% of your army. While IG player spending his CP to gain reroll just for one single squad. It is not the same level of effectiveness.

I don't think that knight army will be OP. It's just boring as hell to play aganst them. Either you have a good answer and turm the game to easy win, or just ignore and bait them all game and play objectives.

 Traditio wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
ok tradio, you're absoilutely right, 8th edition is going to suck, best leave the game now, can I have your stuff?

So I'm curious BTW, how often do you see full Imperial Knight armies right now? I don't mean "theoreticly" I mean, how often do you go down to the local gaming club, store etc and see people standing around asking if you wanna play a game and then fishing out 4+ knights?

I don't play in tournaments on principle. So whereas I am fairly sure that they have been played, I haven't played against IK spam lists.

I've played two games that involved IKs. One was a 2 v 2. The IK player was on my team, and on the other side was...fire dragons.

The second time was also a 2 v 2 (500/500 vs. 500/500). The same IK player had the nerve to put an IK on the table.

So in other words, you've never really encountered knights other then one guy?

Also I think it's being overlooked that they weaken as they take damage.


I think the warden would be the best at mitigating the loss in function due to damage however due to its rate of fire.

The other good thing about toughness and it having a leadership is it opens it up to being susceptible to things we have in 7th now that I'm sure we'd see similar versions of in 8th at the least.Stuff like psychic shriek or the vanguard's rad effect to reduce toughness.

lonestarr777 wrote:
I find it highly amusing how many pages this has gone on for. I look forward to the next faction focus and Traditios next mental breakdown.

I've seen this many times before. Trust me, he can keep on going forever until everyone else gives up in exhaustion and he declares victory, or until the thread gets locked by mods who see the flames but aren't interested in who was running around with a can of gasoline.

The only way to win is to not play.

Why are we even assuming all knights will have the same stat-lines and degrade the same though?
They might not. (probably will, but might not)

 BoomWolf wrote:
Why are we even assuming all knights will have the same stat-lines and degrade the same though?
They might not. (probably will, but might not)

The differences will likely come in the FW knights.

Hopefully renegade knights will not change from this.

 Elemental wrote:

lonestarr777 wrote:
I find it highly amusing how many pages this has gone on for. I look forward to the next faction focus and Traditios next mental breakdown.

I've seen this many times before. Trust me, he can keep on going forever until everyone else gives up in exhaustion and he declares victory, or until the thread gets locked by mods who see the flames but aren't interested in who was running around with a can of gasoline.

The only way to win is to not play.

As sad as it is, you are correct. Nothing can win where Tradito is involved. A scorched earth policy, complete with salted fields is best.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

lonestarr777 wrote:
I find it highly amusing how many pages this has gone on for. I look forward to the next faction focus and Traditios next mental breakdown.

I've seen this many times before. Trust me, he can keep on going forever until everyone else gives up in exhaustion and he declares victory, or until the thread gets locked by mods who see the flames but aren't interested in who was running around with a can of gasoline.

The only way to win is to not play.

As sad as it is, you are correct. Nothing can win where Tradito is involved. A scorched earth policy, complete with salted fields is best.

"Are you suggesting exterminatus my Lord?"

On second thought I better not. Edited for politeness.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Why are we even assuming all knights will have the same stat-lines and degrade the same though?
They might not. (probably will, but might not)

The differences will likely come in the FW knights.

We'll probably see different statlines amongst either the base IK's, or we'll see a difference when it comes to the different types of body.

BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind the IKs would likely only get a handfull of CPs whereas the oppisition could get considerably more. and if the IK is taking say a patol detachmenty along (maybe a tech marine to do repairs, and 2 squads of scout marines as objective grabbers) they'd only get Imperium and general stragetiums. and I GARENTEE the more faction specific a stragitum is, the better is is. GW's gonna wanna be dischouraging power gamers from superfriends lists.

hahaha hilarious. if they really wanted that they would do like in previous editions, no alliances... dream on guys
Btw 4+ knights lists in tournaments are very uncommon, few players play it and usually they didn't get past half classification.

Everybody keeps talking about lascannons.
A unit of 5 khorne terminators with chainfists can put down a knight a turn.
Right now, on the charge they have 20 attacks and if fricken rubrics hit on 3+ you can bet your ass these will too.
So 10 attacks will stick, now it's virtually guaranteed they will have some kind of furious charge buff so they'll wound on 3s netting a pessimistic 6 wounds with no save.

Chainfists were the melta equivalent in melee so we can realistically either expect d6 wounds per or d3 re-rollable, so easily 3 wounds a piece.
So even in the worst case scenario they're causing about 18 wounds, crippling the knight. And that's not taking into the account any combi meltas they might be able to fire first, or that this will likely be much cheaper than a knight.
So their transport , if any, could also pour in some wounds.

But on the topic of lascannons, a spartan could end up shooting 8 lascannon shots as well as a multimelta. That knight ain't looking so hot from where I'm sitting.