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 Roknar wrote:
Been there done that. I had a lone Berzerker after a tough fight on top of a building. He wasn't going to contribute anything to the game anymore as this was before objectives and it would have taken him too long to get down from there again. And so, bored as he was, he figured that avatar of khaine down there gave him a funny look. One shot in the dark and a Wilhelm scream later, a new champion of khorne was born.

Also seen a unit of gretchin take out a unit of space wolf terminators. We just called the game quits after that. Ain't no way that game was gonna get any better after that lol.
I've also lost a Khorne lord to single overwatch rokkit in an attempt to forge the narrative and lead from the front and as if that wasn't enough, that made me fail the charge.
Oh and I lost a full prince to shoota boyz overwatch.

So in summary, those IK's have nothing to fear from small arms fire...nothing at all...*cough*

Oh yea, glory to khorne.

Even the riptide is not spared from his glory.

As in, earning it. (one random sucsessful smash attack+3 failed necron LD checks, +3 successful sweeping advances=1 turn getting assaulted by 3 units means 450ish points of necron dies to a last-wound riptide. we couldn't keep the game going because every time we tried we burst out laughing.)

 Traditio wrote:

EnTyme 726 wrote:Nice to see you're still capable of making rational decisions based on knowledge of the rules rather than snap decisions based on a small portion. Never change, man. Never change.

We already know enough to call it.

We know what the power of a tactical squad is.

We know what an individual tactical marine costs, points wise.

We know the weapons profiles of lascannons and krak grenades.

We know the cost of a multimelta.

We already have the damage chart.

We have plenty of information already to know that IKs and wraithknights are going to be game breaking.

Making it equal to 4 1/2 squads of marines is a joke.


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AnomanderRake wrote:Given that all your upgrades are free if you're using "power level" the Knight isn't 4.5 naked Tactical Squads, he's 4.5 Tactical Squads with lascannons and combi-melta/powerfist sergeants. So he could also be a 550-ish-pt Knight rather than a 300pt Knight.

Knowing GW, we can't make that assumption.

Also it dies really hard to massed powerfists

No, it doesn't.

That's just wrong.

Do you know how many power fist strikes it would take to take down an IK as described?

54.

54 power fist strikes to take down a single IK.

And how much do you think a power fist is going to cost?

We know what a multimelta costs.

I will admit that I failed to take into account that the power levels probably take into account maximum upgrades.

I somewhat overreacted to the article.

And it's certainly still possible (though still, I think, unlikely) that we won't end up with something that isn't a heaping pile of imbalanced garbage.


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If we take upgrades into account, that IK could easily end up costing anywhere from 500-600 points.

About 14 Heavy bolter shots to strip last wound off a knight

So, let's assume Lascannons are 25 points a pop, since I believe the article mentioned Mult-Meltas are the most expensive.

Two five man Dev teams with four Lascannons each should be able to take down a Knight in three turns, while costing just over 300 points themselves.

Turn 1-eight shots, two lascannons die.
Turn 2-six shots (fourteen total), two more lascannons die DESPITE the knight being down a peg.
Turn 3-four shots (eighteen total) and oop, Knight's dead.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So, let's assume Lascannons are 25 points a pop

We can't make that assumption. We have literally no clue what they are going to cost.

since I believe the article mentioned Mult-Meltas are the most expensive.

Citation?

Because I read that article, and I'm pretty sure it said nothing of the sort.

Two five man Dev teams with four Lascannons each should be able to take down a Knight in three turns, while costing just over 300 points themselves.

Turn 1-eight shots, two lascannons die.
Turn 2-six shots (fourteen total), two more lascannons die DESPITE the knight being down a peg.
Turn 3-four shots (eighteen total) and oop, Knight's dead.

Three problems:

1. I think that you are low-balling the probable losses to the devastator squads.

A. First, you're assuming that the lascannons are firing first. This cannot be assumed.

B. You're not taking charges into account.

C. You're ignoring the context of the entire army. If I have two lascannon devastator squads, and they're the biggest threat to your Imp Knight, you're not going to focus them down until they're not a threat? How many turns will it take you to do that, assuming an average 1850 game?

Virtually everything in your army will be able to hurt my devastators. But for all intents and purposes, only those devastators can hurt your Imp Knight.

D. You're not taking terrain into account.

2. You're high balling the impact of the lascannons.

I did the math.

It would take roughly 23 lascannon shots, on average, to take down an Imp Knight. Not 18.

See math below:

2/3 (to hit) X 2/3 (to wound) X 2/3 (bypassing the invuln) X 7/2 (average damage) X 1/24 (number of wounds) = 56/1296 = 28/648 = 14/324 = 7/162

Admittedly, the number does fall if we take the signum into account. But A. we can't assume that the signum will still work that way and B. even then, it would only affect 1 shot out of every 4 (prior to taking damage), and even then, not by that much.

And you know what? Even if ALL of the devastators were firing at BS 5, that Imp Knight still isn't going down in 18 shots. See math below:

5/6 X 2/3 X 2/3 X 7/2 X 1/24 = 140/2592 = 70/1296 = 35/648

That's about 18 1/2 shots, not 18.

3. So great. I have 2 devastator squads of nothing but lascannons. Worthless against fliers (if fliers still have the hard to hit rule). Almost worthless against horde armies.



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Also:

4. You're not taking into account spam.

If I have a "generalist" list and you have 3 Imp Knights (as per the detachment), then sure, I might eventually be able to take down a knight.

But not all 3.

The article did say meltas were the most expensive and grav pistols sere cheapest traditio.

ERJAK:

I stand corrected.

"For example, a Tactical Marine Squad of five models is Power Level 5, but in a matched play game, each of those Tactical Marines would cost 13 points each, with upgrades ranging from a grav-pistol for the Sergeant at 7 pts, all the way up to multi-meltas at 27 pts."

That does imply that a grav-pistol is the cheapest and a multi-melta is the most expensive.

What we can infer from this is that no heavy weapon is more expensive than a multi-melta, not, at least, as an upgrade for a tactical marine squad.

Fair point.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/12/new-warhammer-40000-points-power-levels-may12gw-homepage-post-4/


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Interestingly, it also means that no upgrade will be CHEAPER than 7 points.

Are storm bolters now MORE expensive?

could be, keep in mind if storm bolters are buffered to beon par with twin linked bolt guns, you could be looking at assault 4 24 inch range. which is pretty good.

it's also possiable that the stormbolter is simply a rename of the twin linked bolt gun now.

When I saw the Faction Focus about them, I was a little worried as a Guard player... until I looked at my army. 24 Missile Launchers, 14 Plasma Guns, 8 Plasma Pistols, 20 Rough Riders and 2 triple Plasma Leman Russ Executioners... I think I will be alright.

Well, let's speculate for example that Knights are around 400 points.

So in an 1850 point game, they can bring 4 knights at most and have 250 points left over. Presumably they'd spend it on other things like some kind of support, but that opens up so much complication that I'll set it aside for now.

For 1600 points they've only managed to get themselves a total of 96 wounds, all at T8 with a 3+/5++.

Let's say I bring a well-rounded Imperial Guard army with a squadron of Vendettas for air support. Three Vendettas cost 510 points, so I have 1340 points left to spend on the rest of my army.

Obviously I'll need a CCS for my HQ, that's 60 points.

I think I'll take a couple of platoons. 60 more points for two PCS squads.

100 Infantry in those two platoons for 500 points.

100 Conscripts between the two platoons for 300 more points.

I'll take 4 Commissars for 100 to manage Battleshock.

Toss in a Primaris psyker for 50, he should be fairly safe thanks to the new Independent Character rules.

Upgrade the infantry squads with 5 lascannons for 100 and 5 autocannons for 50.

I'll have 20 points left over that I'd probably find a use for, probably a regimental standard or something like that, but I think this will be good enough for now.

So, I've got 220 wounds on the ground, plus however many the Vendettas end up getting. Most of these guys are probably going to be getting cover saves of some sort, even if otherwise they're not exactly durable, and all of them are basically immune to Battleshock.

On the offensive side, I've got 170 lasguns (70 infantry and 100 conscripts, due to heavy weapons and sergeants) that can all FRFSRF and about 12 lasguns that can't (because all the orders are getting used up on the blobs). I also have 23 lascannons, 5 on the ground and 18 in the Vendettas, and 5 autocannons. I've also got a Psyker who can either put a Rending-style debuff on my target or give me re-rolls to hit. Rending will probably be useful since I'll need 6 to wound on a lot of stuff anyway.

I'm going to assume they're outside of rapid-fire range just because getting all 200+ dudes within 12" is a bit optimistic. A round of average shooting looks something like this.

152 BS3 S3 Rending: 76 hit, 13 wound, 4 save, 9 wounds.
200 BS2 S3 Rending: 67 hit, 11 wound, 4 save, 7 wounds
23 BS3 S9 AP-3: 12 hit, 8 wound, 3 save, 15 wounds (rending is left off because it won't matter on Ap-3)
10 BS3 S7 AP-1: 5 hit, 2 wound, 1 save, 1 wound (rending left off because the above shooting was enough to kill the original target)

Result: one dead Knight from a single round of shooting, and a second Knight missing 8 wounds. It's 3 wounds shy of degrading the second knight's profile, but hey, the quadra-knight player is now starting the game down one Knight. He's now effectively fighting an 1850 point list with 1200 points, and has to come to grips with the fact that I can drop a Knight (and some change) every turn.

Granted, things will get messier on turn 2 when he gets in range for assaults. But with one Knight down, and likely the Conscripts up in front, if he goes into CC he can only kill up to 14 Conscripts (damage doesn't transfer, remember, so 12 attacks and 2 from the Commissars) which will then fall back and let the Vendettas blast him. The Vendettas are the largest single source of damage to be sure, but the combined might of the blobs is not something he can just ignore, especially with that Psyker support. Since the Conscripts are planning to be meatshields anyway they might even actually try to open up in Rapid Fire range, in which case they'd fire 400 shots on their opening volley before sacrificing themselves for the Emperor.

Of course, I will also grant that this is just Mathhammer using 7th ed points.

I'm actually very interested about FW Knights and what rules will they have. Especially about Knight Castigator - if the sword gets to do 6 damage OR hit everything in base to base, it's going to be an auto include.

 CragHack wrote:
I'm actually very interested about FW Knights and what rules will they have. Especially about Knight Castigator - if the sword gets to do 6 damage OR hit everything in base to base, it's going to be an auto include.

I think they just made D weapons into the 6 damage weapons. A castigator was only strength 10 with his blade and it's supposed to be some crazy fire that strikes afterwards. Perhaps d6 per hit? or 2 damage a piece but afterwards the unit is hit for d3 per unsaved wound. It would make it a bit similar to how it is now vs how D strength changed.

Only Traditio would go on a rant about Knights being completely OP because they can't be killed by a unit aimed at killing infantry .


Looking at it Knights will probably be slightly worse in 8th than in 7th just by the fact that they degrade overtime, can be damaged more effectively by more things and are only slightly more (if at all) defensive against their current biggest non-D killers. And it's not like Knights were OP Gouda in 7th either.


They're also probably going to be less of a screw list, which is nice. Them being so scewy was the main reason (besides money) I hadn't already started/bought myself a Household.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Hey Tradito. That knight has 4 attacks. That means it kills 4 marines a turn in close combat, plus maybe d6 from shooting. So that's, let's see... call it seven Marines a turn.

You forgot gatling cannon, possibly 2 since it was allowed in 7ed, heavy stubber/breast-melta and humpback missile-launcher.

Please remember power levels are not points. They are so you can have a balanced-ish game while not taking hours writing lists, adding upgrades and all that. Remember an IK power level 23 is just chainsaw and fist. This means that power level 23 is for just that. POWER LEVELS ARE NOT POINTS. They are a representation of 'power' in a unit. Get angry all you want if points are broken for some things, while not for others. This is not competitive we are talking about here, it's what's been shown to us in these sneak peaks and using that to sum up the IK

 fwlr wrote:
Please remember power levels are not points. They are so you can have a balanced-ish game while not taking hours writing lists, adding upgrades and all that. Remember an IK power level 23 is just chainsaw and fist. This means that power level 23 is for just that. POWER LEVELS ARE NOT POINTS. They are a representation of 'power' in a unit. Get angry all you want if points are broken for some things, while not for others. This is not competitive we are talking about here, it's what's been shown to us in these sneak peaks and using that to sum up the IK

The problem is not their points.
I believe their point cost may be pretty accurate for their power. The thing that upset the people is that full super-heavy army is still exist in new edition.

While I'd still prefer super heavies banished to the larger scale of apocalypse I think the profile looks promising and suitably tough for such a large centerpiece model.

Do we have any stat on melta weapons yet? Maybe those will offer a suitable answer to high wound count models. They need to offer something to compete with lascannons and maintain their role as anti armor, maybe that's the ability to inflict a larger number of wounds per shot.

 Sleep Spell wrote:
While I'd still prefer super heavies banished to the larger scale of apocalypse I think the profile looks promising and suitably tough for such a large centerpiece model.

Do we have any stat on melta weapons yet? Maybe those will offer a suitable answer to high wound count models. They need to offer something to compete with lascannons and maintain their role as anti armor, maybe that's the ability to inflict a larger number of wounds per shot.

12" Assault 1 S8 Ap-4 d6 when in half range, roll 2 dice for damage and discared the lowest. (This is the combi-melta though, reg meltas may be different)(Also combi-meltas can fire twice now)

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Only Traditio would go on a rant about Knights being completely OP because they can't be killed by a unit aimed at killing infantry .


Looking at it Knights will probably be slightly worse in 8th than in 7th just by the fact that they degrade overtime, can be damaged more effectively by more things and are only slightly more (if at all) defensive against their current biggest non-D killers. And it's not like Knights were OP Gouda in 7th either.


They're also probably going to be less of a screw list, which is nice. Them being so scewy was the main reason (besides money) I hadn't already started/bought myself a Household.

I think the goal is to decrease the knights ceiling and raise their floor. I mean that kinda the vehicle theme. So knights are gonna get some hilarious bad luck that one shots them, but they'll wear down and degrade which is exactly what should happen. I mentioned it earlier but people seem to keep ignoring it. The 5 super heavy list will have 3 command points. The other lists will have way more. Even if we only use our command points to reroll low damage rolls, you can see a pretty significant speedup to knight killing.


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Silver144 wrote:

 fwlr wrote:
Please remember power levels are not points. They are so you can have a balanced-ish game while not taking hours writing lists, adding upgrades and all that. Remember an IK power level 23 is just chainsaw and fist. This means that power level 23 is for just that. POWER LEVELS ARE NOT POINTS. They are a representation of 'power' in a unit. Get angry all you want if points are broken for some things, while not for others. This is not competitive we are talking about here, it's what's been shown to us in these sneak peaks and using that to sum up the IK

The problem is not their points.
I believe their point cost may be pretty accurate for their power. The thing that upset the people is that full super-heavy army is still exist in new edition.

It was never not going to exist. Knights are a faction and they said you front they aren't killing factions. The real thing is, are knights unlikable by a take all comers list? I think we have two things to consider here. First any weapon can hurt anything, while yes bolters and Lasguns will be pretty abysmal at stripping wounds they'll at least do some work if not much. Second the command point disadvantage the 3-5 super heavy list puts you at. For that cost a more traditional army will likely have significantly more command points with which to affect the game. Even discounting faction specific strategems the reroll can speed up knight killing tremendously, by refilling damage rolls.

One thing I wanna point out as a really good change is that the knight's toughness against small arms comes from lots wounds, rather than an absurdly low chance to wound, like our old friend simpack riptide or some FMC. Which means, while the generally effectiveness might be close to the same, the small arms will likely feel like they are doing more since you are getting a better wound to wiff ratio.

 BunkhouseBuster wrote:
Power Level 23, eh? Interesting. Not quite triple the power of a Rubric Marine Squad. Color me interested in seeing the Power Levels of other units to get a frame of reference!

It's actually almost four times a "base" squad of 5 rubrics. The sorcerer alon is 2 powerlevel.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Sleep Spell wrote:
While I'd still prefer super heavies banished to the larger scale of apocalypse I think the profile looks promising and suitably tough for such a large centerpiece model.

Do we have any stat on melta weapons yet? Maybe those will offer a suitable answer to high wound count models. They need to offer something to compete with lascannons and maintain their role as anti armor, maybe that's the ability to inflict a larger number of wounds per shot.

12" Assault 1 S8 Ap-4 d6 when in half range, roll 2 dice for damage and discared the lowest. (This is the combi-melta though, reg meltas may be different)(Also combi-meltas can fire twice now)

Thanks, thats definitely an interesting stat line and might help convince people to spend some points on bubble wrapping those IK

mynamelegend wrote:
Great, I'm so glad that armies that exist only to pose binary "did you bring *This* much anti-tank?" win/lose list-building questions stayed in the game. That was my favorite part of 7th edition.

I'm so happy that GW expects players to not realize that they'll need to fire 648 boltgun shots at one of these to take it down, and so their "everything can hurt everything!" spiel is nothing short of disingenuous. Your entire army's combined anti-infantry firepower for several games put together will not be enough to take down one IK, let alone its four buddies.

Allowing armies of nothing but Imperial Knights was probably the single biggest mistake Games Workshop has done in balancing 40k.

And yeah, I'm counting all those other mistakes they made. All of them.

Up until today I didn't see anything about 8th edition that made me think it would be unplayable in a tournament without houseruling. And now I got a taste of it.

Omg! The cost for meltaguns and lascannons and meltabombs and haywire grenades will be relatively cheap in 8th. Who in their right minds builds armies with no anti tank weaponry?
Are the above statistics accounting for removing d3 & d6 wounds?

IKs are not the biggest mistakes. Wraith Knights being undercosted was a mistake. Scat bike spam was a mistake.


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If Giant Spawns are a LoW and cost 80pts and this detachment lets me take 3-5 with no taxes then I will do it!

Hopefully they write rules and cost for forgeworld Imperial Armor books.

Knights are definitely the worst designed army in the game, even fluff-wise (and that's in spite of the existence of Chaos Marines), but who here seriously expected them to be removed?

While you can take an all-knight army, I don't think that's going to be a good idea in 8th.

The their toughness, saves, and multi-wound weapons make them strong in vehicle vs vehicle fights, but the loss of templates and the fact that multi-wound hits don't transfer between models makes them weak against massed infantry from horde armies like IG, Orks, or 'Nids. Armies like that can wrap the AT weapons they need in hundreds of wounds, and it will be very difficult for four knights to crank out 200+ potential wounds, much less unsaved wounds, over the course of 5 turns. And when IG can potentially crank out over 600 lasgun shots per turn, even wounding on 6 their contribution will be non-trivial.

Additionally, we have to take objectives into account. Having only four models means you can only hold four objectives at the most, out of a typical six. And every model you lose is one less objective you can hold. Lose just two models, and an opponent with a standard army can easily win by playing the objectives.

Knights are definitely going to need support from other units that can chew up hordes for them, remove the horde army's anti-battleshock models,and protect them from getting hard-countered by concentrated fire. A well-supported knight or two can potentially be very strong, but running all-knights is likely to be an overly-specialized gimmick.

Knights will likely be strong against elite infantry like Space Marines though, because Space Marines are paying a minimum of 13pts/wound it's more difficult for them to go for a wound-saturation strategy, and a boltgun has no advantage over a lasgun when shooting at T8. Knights will likely be particularly strong against Necrons as well due to the Necrons' low model count, and how little difference there is between a Necron and a Guardsman from the Knight's perspective.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Only Traditio would go on a rant about Knights being completely OP because they can't be killed by a unit aimed at killing infantry .

Well to be fair, Tradito's marines DO have a Missile Launcher

 Melissia wrote:
Knights are definitely the worst designed army in the game, even fluff-wise (and that's in spite of the existence of Chaos Marines)

Why, why and why? (Genuinnly interested)

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Knights are definitely the worst designed army in the game, even fluff-wise (and that's in spite of the existence of Chaos Marines)

Why, why and why? (Genuinnly interested)

Well, you take an army. You make it to be entirely composed of Super Heavies. You make sure that said Super Heavies are some of the best in the game.
Congratulations, you now have an army that is immune to 80% of its opponents models, has insane manoeuvrability, has more firepower than some gunline armies, can take and hold objectives like no tomorrow, is rapetastic in close combat, just about ignores the vehicle damage chart and basically requires your opponent to minmax everything towards AT to stand a chance against you.
Is it any wonder many people at complaining Knight players?

Knights are mediocre units at best.