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more to the point if you're shooting a IK with JUST your tac marines you're doing it wrong. let's look at some of the Marine anti tank in 8th edition shall we?
Centurions: I'm not talking grav centurions because we dunno what they have, we DO however have an anti-tank centurion build whose exact stats we more or less know the Lascanon/Missile launcher build. Each Centurion will put out 2 Lascannon shots and 1 Missile shot. w edunno the exact stats on a missile launcher but certainly have some guesses and are 99% sure a kark missile will deal D6 damage. so each centruion is putting shots onto the IK dealing up to 3d6 damage a turn. that's 9d6 points of damage from a squad of 3. this means a single centurion squad could take down a IK in one turn. yeah you're gonna have to get lucky, but thats STILL a lot of firepower. (someone whose good at math hammer capable of giving a avaerage damage number assuming damage equal to a kark grenade?)
"but I don't like centurions! they're new and units newer then 4th edition upset me!" you might cry? well ok, you have two choices, a devestator squad with lascannons, or a Laspredator. Las Preds are gonna now have 4 lascanon shots a turn. assuming the price didn't change 140 points for a las pred will be a good deal in 8th. Marines in 8th edition are NOT gonna be short of ways to handle armor. between dedicated anti-tank, that looks pretty good, and the fact that every tac squad can run around shooting their heavy weapon at something...
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
If the LOW detachment pans out that way, it would be nice to take a pure armour, multiple baneblade army for a change.
Maybe the Stormlord will be worth the investment now, since it'll probably be wounding everything in the game on 5's minimum.
To the topic at hand; the absence of knight stat boost formations will be a big deal; they'll just rock around killing stuff at -1 BS and probably get crippled by the first drop pod of meltas that shows up.
With defender picking casualties ill bet we'll see maxed dev squads as well, since the scrubs will always be eating the incoming fire.
More fun times approach
Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.
4 Tac Marine squads, that's 8 Meltaguns, 4 Power fists, and that's assuming we can't take Heavy Weaps in 5 man squads too.
IKs seem underpowered.
He's an angry Marine player who thinks that any time people who aren't Tactical Marines get anything cool they're pooing on Tactical Marines.
(He hasn't noticed that GW's on a full-on size creep bender. Humans haven't been cool enough for a long time (see: WHFB and the "nope, nothing even remotely normal looking, only giant gold people, naked dwarves, and wacky tree things"-fest that is AoS), and we've gotten to the point where Space Marines just aren't special enough anymore in 40k and things have to become BIGGER!)
I have never had a problem fighting a Full Knight force even in 7th. With my Taus or my Dark Angels I just played the objetives and normally win.
That said, when one of my friends bring his full Knight Army, we normally are playing some kind of Apocalypse kind of Scenario. But we had played normal play some times to try it. It wasn't specially fun, but I have never encounter Imperial Knights specially OP. i assume that armies without the capacity to bring reliable heavy weapons to the table can have a problem (Orks and Tyranids maybe?)
Plus, in one of the Q&A GW already said that the "power levels" have been given to units assuming that they take all of the possible upgrades in relation to weapons, etc... so a 5 Power Level TAC-Squad should be with full heavy weapons into account. But, again... if you are using power levels... really you should be upsted for a Imperial Knight army? Is a totally different kind of game, you can't go there with matched play mindset.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/19 20:25:58
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
as someone who plays Marines, I can't see why anyone would be upset with the changes, now obviously the devil will be in the details, and with points costing (if the wraith knight had cost 700 points no one would be calling it OP after all) but with the info we have now, Marines are gonna be in a better place then they've been in ages
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
This whole discussion also seems to sidestep the value that command points have. Sure you may get 3 knights, but you only end up with 3 command points. For a similar number of points y
a more balanced army can likely bring way more command points to the table.
Darkagl1 wrote: This whole discussion also seems to sidestep the value that command points have. Sure you may get 3 knights, but you only end up with 3 command points. For a similar number of points y
a more balanced army can likely bring way more command points to the table.
yeah, thats important to note too. and command points could be REALLY important. remember we've only seen the generic ones tht are almost certainly the weakest (because GW is gonna wanna enchourage running pureer armies instead of running a "well I take my marines, with a lemen russ with a..." approuch)
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I'm still curious what all massive amount of upgrades he's worried about a 23 power level knight taking. A single carapace weapon option is that terrifying compared to the ridiculous amount of things a tactical squad can take now? Who knew...
Or maybe he's worried about the option to replace a chainsword with a gauntlet. Oh and all of the..wait..no..no that was it. That was all they've ever had unless you take a full detachment of knights. And then you get the oh so scary multitude of options known as a single artifact.
Sisters and Wolves 4000
~4000 points of Skaven
~2000 Kaptain Gitklaw's Grots
~2400 Kharadron Overlords
4x Imperial Knights
mmzero252 wrote: I'm still curious what all massive amount of upgrades he's worried about a 23 power level knight taking. A single carapace weapon option is that terrifying compared to the ridiculous amount of things a tactical squad can take now? Who knew...
Or maybe he's worried about the option to replace a chainsword with a gauntlet. Oh and all of the..wait..no..no that was it. That was all they've ever had unless you take a full detachment of knights. And then you get the oh so scary multitude of options known as a single artifact.
Maybe the IK will be a single profile with all the weapon options built in (Instead of having 5 different pages for what amounts to a weapon swap)
Either way that basic weapons can hurt it does change a lot. (Sure you're not likely to kill one with bolters alone, but it beats every soldier on the battlefield being nothing but ablative wounds for the weapons that can)
I think it might also be more informative to compare the IK to another vehicle.
An IK's statline basically makes it two LRBTs with a 5++, but better in melee.
I'd say around 400 points ish would probably cover it. 300 for the two LRBTs, around 100 for the invuln save and melee toys.
If we then proceed to apply that comparison to the detachment, 5 IKs would basically be 10LRBTs, something that a parking lot list can feasibly achieve.
With the range of vehicles we've seen so far, the IK doesn't seem to be too far off the curve of other vehicles. At least for a superheavy.
Jbz` wrote:Either way that basic weapons can hurt it does change a lot. (Sure you're not likely to kill one with bolters alone, but it beats every soldier on the battlefield being nothing but ablative wounds for the weapons that can)
No, it doesn't. Only someone who cannot grasp even basic math would sincerely believe this.
Yes, technically, a 1/27 chance of stripping a wound, or needing 648 boltgun shots, on average, to take down an IK is technically better than literal impossibility.
But that's doesn't "change a lot." The same practical result follows: shooting an IK with small arms remains utterly pointless.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/05/19 21:17:22
Not entirely pointless, if a Knight happens to only have 1 or 2 wounds left, I would totally FRFSRF a few dozen lasguns at it just so that my AT weapons can focus on something that has more HP left for their d6 damage rolls.
And then I will have killed a Knight* with the Lasgun, King of Weapons.
*After thoroughly tenderizing it with actual AT weapons.
ross-128 wrote: I think it might also be more informative to compare the IK to another vehicle.
An IK's statline basically makes it two LRBTs with a 5++, but better in melee.
I'd say around 400 points ish would probably cover it. 300 for the two LRBTs, around 100 for the invuln save and melee toys.
If we then proceed to apply that comparison to the detachment, 5 IKs would basically be 10LRBTs, something that a parking lot list can feasibly achieve.
With the range of vehicles we've seen so far, the IK doesn't seem to be too far off the curve of other vehicles. At least for a superheavy.
If you just go by this sort of thinking, then a knight is suddenly way easier to deal with. Space marines have dreads. Why would you pit a squad of tac marines against it instead of the now extremely usable dreads? Marines also get to use a lot of different uh..tank transport things with guns. Both options much stronger than a tac squad and are things every army has some sort of access to.
Or let's just continue being silly and put 100 grots against that "300 point knight". Seriously, just use a few special weapon squads or vehicles meant to fight stronger things.
Sisters and Wolves 4000
~4000 points of Skaven
~2000 Kaptain Gitklaw's Grots
~2400 Kharadron Overlords
4x Imperial Knights
Jbz` wrote:Either way that basic weapons can hurt it does change a lot. (Sure you're not likely to kill one with bolters alone, but it beats every soldier on the battlefield being nothing but ablative wounds for the weapons that can)
No, it doesn't. Only someone who can't do fairly basic math would make this claim.
Yes, technically, a 1/27 chance of stripping a wound, or needing 648 boltgun shots, on average, to take down an IK is technically better than literal impossibility.
But that's doesn't "change a lot." The same practical result follows: shooting an IK with small arms remains utterly pointless.
People say the same thing about MC in current 40K.
I have lost loads of them (and killed loads of them) with small arms alone.
I've seen Riptides run over by tactical squads.
I've seen Daemon princes get butchered by Space marine sergeants.
I shot a Bloodthirster out of the sky with cultists.
Jbz` wrote:People say the same thing about MC in current 40K.
I have lost loads of them (and killed loads of them) with small arms alone.
I've seen Riptides run over by tactical squads.
I've seen Daemon princes get butchered by Space marine sergeants.
I shot a Bloodthirster out of the sky with cultists.
Those are statistical abnormalities. They aren't worth serious consideration because of how utterly unlikely they are to happen.
ross-128 wrote: I think it might also be more informative to compare the IK to another vehicle.
An IK's statline basically makes it two LRBTs with a 5++, but better in melee.
I'd say around 400 points ish would probably cover it. 300 for the two LRBTs, around 100 for the invuln save and melee toys.
If we then proceed to apply that comparison to the detachment, 5 IKs would basically be 10LRBTs, something that a parking lot list can feasibly achieve.
With the range of vehicles we've seen so far, the IK doesn't seem to be too far off the curve of other vehicles. At least for a superheavy.
If you just go by this sort of thinking, then a knight is suddenly way easier to deal with. Space marines have dreads. Why would you pit a squad of tac marines against it instead of the now extremely usable dreads? Marines also get to use a lot of different uh..tank transport things with guns. Both options much stronger than a tac squad and are things every army has some sort of access to.
Or let's just continue being silly and put 100 grots against that "300 point knight". Seriously, just use a few special weapon squads or vehicles meant to fight stronger things.
Yep, in terms of wounds a Knight is worth about 3-ish Dreadnaughts. But it does have a higher toughness and an invuln, so I'd round it up to about the durability of 4 Dreadnaughts.
4 Dreadnoughts isn't too hard for a well-balanced list to deal with.
Traditio wrote: No, it doesn't. Only someone who cannot grasp even basic math would sincerely believe this.
Yes, technically, a 1/27 chance of stripping a wound, or needing 648 boltgun shots, on average, to take down an IK is technically better than literal impossibility.
But that's doesn't "change a lot." The same practical result follows: shooting an IK with small arms remains utterly pointless.
If it's one wound away form dieing or hitting threshold, I rather imagine you will start directing boltgun fire at it. Or if it advance towards them, they will likely chip off a wound, given a 10 man squad rapid firing is statistically likely to peel a wound off.
ross-128 wrote: I think it might also be more informative to compare the IK to another vehicle.
An IK's statline basically makes it two LRBTs with a 5++, but better in melee.
I'd say around 400 points ish would probably cover it. 300 for the two LRBTs, around 100 for the invuln save and melee toys.
If we then proceed to apply that comparison to the detachment, 5 IKs would basically be 10LRBTs, something that a parking lot list can feasibly achieve.
With the range of vehicles we've seen so far, the IK doesn't seem to be too far off the curve of other vehicles. At least for a superheavy.
If you just go by this sort of thinking, then a knight is suddenly way easier to deal with. Space marines have dreads. Why would you pit a squad of tac marines against it instead of the now extremely usable dreads? Marines also get to use a lot of different uh..tank transport things with guns. Both options much stronger than a tac squad and are things every army has some sort of access to.
Or let's just continue being silly and put 100 grots against that "300 point knight". Seriously, just use a few special weapon squads or vehicles meant to fight stronger things.
Yep, in terms of wounds a Knight is worth about 3-ish Dreadnaughts. But it does have a higher toughness and an invuln, so I'd round it up to about the durability of 4 Dreadnaughts.
4 Dreadnoughts isn't too hard for a well-balanced list to deal with.
And quite honestly that's saying you ONLY brought four dreads. Having two or so sounds about normal. But then that paired with all the rest of your guys more than makes up for not having a finely tailored list to kill heavy armor.
But seriously, nobody should be worried about a knight or two. If your opponent brings five of them just refuse the game. I have knights and I've never actually thought it would make for a fun game to bring three let alone five. If your opponent just wants to win at all costs, tell them you'd rather skip the drama and say they've won that one, good job.
Sisters and Wolves 4000
~4000 points of Skaven
~2000 Kaptain Gitklaw's Grots
~2400 Kharadron Overlords
4x Imperial Knights
Jbz` wrote:Either way that basic weapons can hurt it does change a lot. (Sure you're not likely to kill one with bolters alone, but it beats every soldier on the battlefield being nothing but ablative wounds for the weapons that can)
No, it doesn't. Only someone who cannot grasp even basic math would sincerely believe this.
Yes, technically, a 1/27 chance of stripping a wound, or needing 648 boltgun shots, on average, to take down an IK is technically better than literal impossibility.
But that's doesn't "change a lot." The same practical result follows: shooting an IK with small arms remains utterly pointless.
Its almost like you people cant grasp the concept of an army having more than one gun at a time.
Its not that you need 648 boltgun shots to kill a knight, because that's not what you DO in game.
Its that your 50-odd boltgun shots, who were totally worhtless before, now actually contribute to the task done MOSTLY by your anti-tank guns/swords, by chipping away a few extra wounds.
Anyone who ever played more than two games of 40k with MCs around, should be well aware of cases when a big nasty thing is down to it's last wound or two, and is taken down by a hail-merry attempt with guns not intended to kill that monster, because you are NOT trying to kill a monster with said guns, you are trying to finish it off.
Same logic applies here, but on an even wider scale.
Your anti-tank guns your two squads that are facing the knight did 11 wounds this round-ok. now lets throw the bolters in.
Yea, I don't expect the 20 or so bolter shots thrown around to KILL the knight, but maybe I manage to shave a wound, and take it down to the next phase, making him kill less of my guys next turn.
Anyone failing to see that, has nothing to look for in wargaming in general.
If the fact that "small chance to do some damage" is indistinguishable to you from "can't do anything at all", you are hopeless.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Jbz` wrote:Either way that basic weapons can hurt it does change a lot. (Sure you're not likely to kill one with bolters alone, but it beats every soldier on the battlefield being nothing but ablative wounds for the weapons that can)
No, it doesn't. Only someone who cannot grasp even basic math would sincerely believe this.
Yes, technically, a 1/27 chance of stripping a wound, or needing 648 boltgun shots, on average, to take down an IK is technically better than literal impossibility.
But that's doesn't "change a lot." The same practical result follows: shooting an IK with small arms remains utterly pointless.
Its almost like you people cant grasp the concept of an army having more than one gun at a time.
Its not that you need 648 boltgun shots to kill a knight, because that's not what you DO in game.
Its that your 50-odd boltgun shots, who were totally worhtless before, now actually contribute to the task done MOSTLY by your anti-tank guns/swords, by chipping away a few extra wounds.
Anyone who ever played more than two games of 40k with MCs around, should be well aware of cases when a big nasty thing is down to it's last wound or two, and is taken down by a hail-merry attempt with guns not intended to kill that monster, because you are NOT trying to kill a monster with said guns, you are trying to finish it off.
Same logic applies here, but on an even wider scale.
Your anti-tank guns your two squads that are facing the knight did 11 wounds this round-ok. now lets throw the bolters in.
Yea, I don't expect the 20 or so bolter shots thrown around to KILL the knight, but maybe I manage to shave a wound, and take it down to the next phase, making him kill less of my guys next turn.
Anyone failing to see that, has nothing to look for in wargaming in general.
If the fact that "small chance to do some damage" is indistinguishable to you from "can't do anything at all", you are hopeless.
I can attest to this: had a cultist unit that took down a flying Hive Tyrant with 2 wounds left, needed 6s to hit and 6s to wound and I managed to take off 1 wound leading it to failing it's grounding test and dying from a sudden drop. That gave me a kill point and slay the warlord causing me to win the game. It's unlikely but small arms fire taking down big monsters does happen.
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
Jbz` wrote:Either way that basic weapons can hurt it does change a lot. (Sure you're not likely to kill one with bolters alone, but it beats every soldier on the battlefield being nothing but ablative wounds for the weapons that can)
No, it doesn't. Only someone who cannot grasp even basic math would sincerely believe this.
Yes, technically, a 1/27 chance of stripping a wound, or needing 648 boltgun shots, on average, to take down an IK is technically better than literal impossibility.
But that's doesn't "change a lot." The same practical result follows: shooting an IK with small arms remains utterly pointless.
Also it dies really hard to massed powerfists and you can charge out of Deep Strike now. Heck, if Force Weapon just means "d3-damage-to-anything" like the melee teaser suggested it won't take very many Grey Knights to punch a Knight to death. Hammerhand up and go thwacking.
BTW, this is not suggested, this is confiermed.
We got the rubric's dataslate already, the sorcerer has force weapons.
Force weapons are power weapons that do d3 damage. no more fiddling with casting force to ID.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Been there done that. I had a lone Berzerker after a tough fight on top of a building. He wasn't going to contribute anything to the game anymore as this was before objectives and it would have taken him too long to get down from there again. And so, bored as he was, he figured that avatar of khaine down there gave him a funny look. One shot in the dark and a Wilhelm scream later, a new champion of khorne was born.
Also seen a unit of gretchin take out a unit of space wolf terminators. We just called the game quits after that. Ain't no way that game was gonna get any better after that lol.
I've also lost a Khorne lord to single overwatch rokkit in an attempt to forge the narrative and lead from the front and as if that wasn't enough, that made me fail the charge.
Oh and I lost a full prince to shoota boyz overwatch.
So in summary, those IK's have nothing to fear from small arms fire...nothing at all...*cough*
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/19 22:13:21
Sisters and Wolves 4000
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)