TYRANIDS - Massive Scything Talons

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**col_impact**

Lance845 wrote:
Ok. For the sake of appeasing people not col_impact I will give this one more red hot go.

First a model has wargear.

Second every piece of wargear has a profile.

Third a pair of something is 2 of that thing.

Fourth the name of a profile is irrelevant except to identify that profile for rules purposes. I.e. a unit called "canoptek spiders" can have 1-3 models. It does not matter that the profile for the unit is plural because it can represent a single model. Another example, biovore brood. A brood is 2 or more of a thing. But the biovore brood unit can consist of a single biovore.

Fifth we have no permission to modify a profile except with a second profile that directly states the changes it is making.

So, a model equipped with a pair (2) of "scything talons" is equipped with 2 separate profiles called "scything talons". And a model equipped with 3 pairs (6) of "scything talons" has 6 individual weapon profiles.

That is RAW

For your claim to be true you need to site a rule and/or a precedent where we have permission to modify a profile without the express permission of another profile or dataslate. Show me ANYWHERE in ANY book where that is the case.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Otherwise your explanation makes no sense. I.e. is nonsense. And the leaps in logic you made to get there are dumbfounding. Which makes the argument dumb.

Incorrect. The name of the profile is always relevant. You cannot use permission in a datasheet to buy wargear 'X' to buy wargear 'Y' instead. The purchase permissions need to be explicit. If a model has permission to buy a gauss cannon it cannot buy a Tesla destructor instead.
Further, if a model has permission to buy a gauss cannon it cannot buy gauss cannons instead. So name and number are always significant.

The name of the profile indicates what the weapon is. In this case 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon. The profile refers to itself as 'this weapon' so no matter how many 'massive scything talons' a model has it is a single weapon.

When you add additional pairs of 'massive scything talons', it doesn't add weapons. There is no weapon profile named 'pair of scything talons'. You are merely adding additional pairs to grant the +1A.

So not only is my argument entirely RAW, but it works exactly as how one would expect based on how everything is priced in the index. How about that?

**Jacksmiles**

orknado wrote:
Suggestion.

Instead of just calling col_impact names, why don't you follow the Tenets of YMDC and prove his argument wrong.

8 pages of doing just that. RAW supports 3 attacks. You may believe RAI is 1 attack, but the rules don't say that just because you want them to.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tokhuah wrote:
+1 to orknado. The attacks on col_impact are themselves trolling, especially because he is correct in this case.

lol.

If you guys would like to add to the discussion, please do, but just jumping in to say col_impact is right is tantamount to admitting you haven't read the thread.

**GodDamUser**

Actually as you buy the 'two or more pairs' as a single wargear purchase I am thinking the RAW is actually towards +1 Atk.. (I previous was with RAW being +3, but RAI +1)

in other examples where there are more than 1 +1A being applied you actually buy the weapon multiple times

**Jacksmiles**

GodDamUser wrote:
Actually as you buy the 'two or more pairs' as a single wargear purchase I am thinking the RAW is actually towards +1 Atk.. (I previous was with RAW being +3, but RAI +1)

in other examples where there are more than 1 +1A being applied you actually buy the weapon multiple times

Not true in all cases. Several items have a discount for buying more than one, and you just pay the one price. Lightning claws being a prime example. 9 points for one. 13 points for two.

And before you say that the lightning claws give you +1 attack for the pair, so surely 3 pairs of talons give +1 attack, remember it's worded differently, and I only use that as an example to illustrate how you can buy more than 1 weapon for one discounted price.

**GodDamUser**

Jacksmiles wrote:
GodDamUser wrote:
Actually as you buy the 'two or more pairs' as a single wargear purchase I am thinking the RAW is actually towards +1 Atk.. (I previous was with RAW being +3, but RAI +1)

in other examples where there are more than 1 +1A being applied you actually buy the weapon multiple times

Not true in all cases. Several items have a discount for buying more than one, and you just pay the one price. Lightning claws being a prime example. 9 points for one. 13 points for two.

And before you say that the lightning claws give you +1 attack for the pair, so surely 3 pairs of talons give +1 attack, remember it's worded differently, and I only use that as an example to illustrate how you can buy more than 1 weapon for one discounted price.

Yes but as Col had mentioned.. there isn't actually a set limit on how many you get..
you could make some sort of monstrosity of just talons all over the place and it would still cost the same points, while in your lightning claw example you still need to set how many you are buying.
Each time you would buy a pair of lighting claws, it would be a separate purchase still, while here it is only 1 Wargear purchase

**col_impact**

Jacksmiles wrote:
orknado wrote:
Suggestion.

Instead of just calling col_impact names, why don't you follow the Tenets of YMDC and prove his argument wrong.

8 pages of doing just that. RAW supports 3 attacks. You may believe RAI is 1 attack, but the rules don't say that just because you want them to.

Saying you did just that is not the same as actually doing it. If you have an argument that disproves my argument then by all means present it to the thread. You have yet to do so.

**Jacksmiles**

GodDamUser wrote:
Jacksmiles wrote:
GodDamUser wrote:
Actually as you buy the 'two or more pairs' as a single wargear purchase I am thinking the RAW is actually towards +1 Atk.. (I previous was with RAW being +3, but RAI +1)

in other examples where there are more than 1 +1A being applied you actually buy the weapon multiple times

Not true in all cases. Several items have a discount for buying more than one, and you just pay the one price. Lightning claws being a prime example. 9 points for one. 13 points for two.

And before you say that the lightning claws give you +1 attack for the pair, so surely 3 pairs of talons give +1 attack, remember it's worded differently, and I only use that as an example to illustrate how you can buy more than 1 weapon for one discounted price.

Yes but as Col had mentioned.. there isn't actually a set limit on how many you get..
you could make some sort of monstrosity of just talons all over the place and it would still cost the same points, while in your lightning claw example you still need to set how many you are buying.
Each time you would buy a pair of lighting claws, it would be a separate purchase still, while here it is only 1 Wargear purchase

Arbitrary. No model has an option more than 3 pairs of talons, and you pay one price for "two (or more)," just as you pay one price for two lightning claws.

There IS a set limit on how many you get. You get 3 pairs. As detailed in the datasheet, where the wargear is. I have to wonder if he even reads the rules before participating or is actually really making troll posts just to keep arguments alive.

**col_impact**

Jacksmiles wrote:
GodDamUser wrote:
Jacksmiles wrote:
GodDamUser wrote:
Actually as you buy the 'two or more pairs' as a single wargear purchase I am thinking the RAW is actually towards +1 Atk.. (I previous was with RAW being +3, but RAI +1)

in other examples where there are more than 1 +1A being applied you actually buy the weapon multiple times

Not true in all cases. Several items have a discount for buying more than one, and you just pay the one price. Lightning claws being a prime example. 9 points for one. 13 points for two.

And before you say that the lightning claws give you +1 attack for the pair, so surely 3 pairs of talons give +1 attack, remember it's worded differently, and I only use that as an example to illustrate how you can buy more than 1 weapon for one discounted price.

Yes but as Col had mentioned.. there isn't actually a set limit on how many you get..
you could make some sort of monstrosity of just talons all over the place and it would still cost the same points, while in your lightning claw example you still need to set how many you are buying.
Each time you would buy a pair of lighting claws, it would be a separate purchase still, while here it is only 1 Wargear purchase

Arbitrary. No model has an option more than 3 pairs of talons, and you pay one price for "two (or more)," just as you pay one price for two lightning claws.

There IS a set limit on how many you get. You get 3 pairs. As detailed in the datasheet, where the wargear is. I have to wonder if he even reads the rules before participating or is actually really making troll posts just to keep arguments alive.

You realize that this supports my argument and not yours.

In your argument, a Trygon with 3 pairs has +3 attacks over a Trygon with 2 pairs while paying no additional cost for those extra attacks.

In my argument, which follows strictly from the RAW, 3 pairs has no benefit over 2 pairs so it doesn't cost anything beyond the 2 pairs where you get the actual benefit.

Independent confirmation of my argument. It doesn't need it though. The RAW already supports my argument.

**Eldarain**

How is it not paid for? Isnt the Trygons 3 three times the cost of the Tervigons 1? (Honest question away from books going from memory)

**col_impact**

Eldarain wrote:
How is it not paid for? Isnt the Trygons 3 three times the cost of the Tervigons 1? (Honest question away from books going from memory)

How many attacks does a Trygon with 3 pairs get? How many attacks does a Trygon with 2 pairs get? What is the cost difference between those two?

There is no cost difference between the two. In my argument the no cost difference corresponds to no change in the number of attacks between a Trygon with 3 pairs and a Trygon with 2 pairs. So that's independent confirmation of my RAW argument.

So not only is my argument strictly according to the RAW, it is also what the rules writers had in mind when they wrote the price index.

**Eldarain**

col_impact wrote:
Eldarain wrote:
How is it not paid for? Isnt the Trygons 3 three times the cost of the Tervigons 1? (Honest question away from books going from memory)

How many attacks does a Trygon with 3 pairs get? How many attacks does a Trygon with 2 pairs get? What is the cost difference between those two?

A Trygon with 2 pairs is illegally equipped. Its datasheet only allows for 3 sets. (Why I think the weapons are purchased in a simplified manner) You are trying to ascribe a system that isn't detailed anywhere.

**GodDamUser**

Eldarain wrote:
How is it not paid for? Isnt the Trygons 3 three times the cost of the Tervigons 1? (Honest question away from books going from memory)

Well a Tervigon pays 22 for a single pair a Carnifex 14 and HT pays 31... So comparing the different unit cost doesn't work for Tyranids as they are costed based on the unit it is attached to

**Eldarain**

Aren't some of those different types of Scytal?

**col_impact**

Eldarain wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Eldarain wrote:
How is it not paid for? Isnt the Trygons 3 three times the cost of the Tervigons 1? (Honest question away from books going from memory)

How many attacks does a Trygon with 3 pairs get? How many attacks does a Trygon with 2 pairs get? What is the cost difference between those two?

A Trygon with 2 pairs is illegally equipped. Its datasheet only allows for 3 sets. (Why I think the weapons are purchased in a simplified manner) You are trying to ascribe a system that isn't detailed anywhere.

Fair enough. We need a case of a model that can be legally equipped with 2 pair and 3 pair and compare the price difference if we want independent confirmation.

My RAW argument still stands on its own RAW merits though.

**Eldarain**

As does ours. It could be either way.

**col_impact**

Eldarain wrote:
As does ours. It could be either way.

Well no. The weapon profile is for 'massive scything talons' not 'pair of massive scything talons' so the one weapon profile is for all of the massive scything talons and additional pairs only grant the +1A.

That's the RAW. "This weapon" refers to 'massive scything talons'. So a model equipped with 2000 massive scything talons is only equipped with a single weapon.

You have to show me a profile for 'pair of massive scything talons' to make a RAW claim otherwise.

**Eldarain**

Your insistence the plural form indicates all of them and not the fact buying singles is impossible is shaky at best.

**col_impact**

Eldarain wrote:
Your insistence the plural form indicates all of them and not the fact buying singles is impossible is shaky at best.

There are countless examples of a model having a single weapon profile for stuff like 'vicious claws'.

If you think it is impossible or shaky, prove that it is impossible. Support what you say.

The weapon profile tells us what counts as a single weapon. In this case 'massive scything claws' count as a single weapon and additional pairs beyond the first pair grant +1A. This is literally what the rules tell us.

**Eldarain**

And none of them tell you to buy 3x vicious claws.

**col_impact**

Eldarain wrote:
And none of them tell you to buy 3x vicious claws.

Exactly. So you aren't buying weapon profiles. You are buying additional pairs which are equipment that grant the +1A per the rule on the weapon profile. It's real straight-forward.

This is the reason your argument isn't RAW. You lack a profile for what you claim.

**Eldarain**

Except that isn't detailed anywhere. Mawlocs buy 3 separate purchases of Scytals are those not separate wargear either?

**col_impact**

Eldarain wrote:
Except that isn't detailed anywhere. Mawlocs buy 3 separate purchases of Scytals are those not separate wargear either?

Same situation. The weapon profile provided is 'scything talons' not 'pair of scything talons' so the one profile is used for all of the scything talons a model has and you only get +1A for having the 2 free additional pair of scything talons, not +9.

**Lance845**

I am still waiting for the page number of the rule or reference of an example that allows you to change the attributes of a profile without the express permission of a profile or dataslate.

Col continues to fail to deliver.

And in case its been forgot. Points costs are not profiles. The only thing that matters once the model is on the table and how it functions is the wargear list. This goes double in this edition where points costs are not even needed to play.

**col_impact**

Lance845 wrote:
I am still waiting for the page number of the rule or reference of an example that allows you to change the attributes of a profile without the express permission of a profile or dataslate.

Col continues to fail to deliver.

And in case its been forgot. Points costs are not profiles. The only thing that matters once the model is on the table and how it functions is the wargear list. This goes double in this edition where points costs are not even needed to play.

You have this backwards. I am not doing anything without strict permission.

I am following the rules to the letter that 'massive scything talons' is a single weapon profile for however many number of massive scything talons you have and the additional pairs your have equipped can grant +1A max.

You are the one who is trying to add a weapon for 'pair of massive scything talons' when no such weapon profile exists.

You have continued to fail to deliver a weapon profile for 'pair of massive scything talons'.

**GodDamUser**

Eldarain wrote:
Your insistence the plural form indicates all of them and not the fact buying singles is impossible is shaky at best.

this my break down of what Col is trying to say..

The weapon profile is Massive Scything Talons which is a plural term

The Wargear Option Is Massive Scything Talons(more than 2 pairs, Trygon) as a single purchase

In the case of a single profile line and a single wargear purchase, it is a single item, and the special rule of if more than 1 pair +1A only applies once as it is it a single items of multiple pairs

The closest example is the Mawlock.. which get 3 pairs on Scything Talons (not the monstrous one o_0, well that makes them fair cheaper then I was thinking)

Which are free as are taken as individual pairs so would technically get the +3A imo.. (but I can see Col saying it is still only +1 due to the plural name for wargear and not set pairs)

**col_impact**

GodDamUser wrote:
Eldarain wrote:
Your insistence the plural form indicates all of them and not the fact buying singles is impossible is shaky at best.

this my break down of what Col is trying to say..

The weapon profile is Massive Scything Talons which is a plural term

The Wargear Option Is Massive Scything Talons(more than 2 pairs, Trygon) as a single purchase

In the case of a single profile line and a single wargear purchase, it is a single item, and the special rule of if more than 1 pair +1A only applies once as it is it a single items of multiple pairs

The closest example is the Mawlock.. which get 3 pairs on Scything Talons (not the monstrous one o_0, well that makes them fair cheaper then I was thinking)

Which are free as are taken as individual pairs so would technically get the +3A imo.. (but I can see Col saying it is still only +1 due to the plural name for wargear and not set pairs)

Right. Where has anyone supported the idea with rules support that a 'pair of massive scything talons' is a weapon? No one has been able to successfully show that a 'pair of massive scything talons' is a weapon. There is no profile associated with 'pair of massive scything talons' so there is no justification for considering a 'pair of massive scything talons' as a weapon.

What counts a single weapon is when the Trygon attacks with its 'massive scything talons'. That is the profile it has. When it attacks with 'this weapon' (ie its 'massive scything talons') it gets +1A if it has an additional pair of scything talons beyond the first.

**GodDamUser**

The funny thing about this.. is that it is the opposite of the argument that was had not that long ago about Gulliman and his weapons

**col_impact**

GodDamUser wrote:
The funny thing about this.. is that it is the opposite of the argument that was had not that long ago about Gulliman and his weapons

Nope. Gulliman 7th edition text says 'these weapons' so I am wholly consistent in my RAW reasoning that the rules say what they mean to say. If you recall it was the other side saying there was somehow mysteriously a single weapon and the rules were lying to us about 'these weapons'.

**Zande4**

If you want to get really technical it's +6 attacks strictly RAW. Obviously this is wrong and no one is going to play it like that, it's so incredibly poorly worded.

col_impact is correct in saying that a pair of scything talons (of any size) is not a weapon profile. They are purchased in pairs, but the weapon profile does not mention "pair" anywhere.

The rule states:

"If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous / massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights."

You: Fight in the fight phase and elect to use a different scything talon for your 6 attacks, each one generating an additional attack as you have move than 1 pair.

Breakdown:

Does a Trygon have - "If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous / massive scything talons," Yes

So when a Trygon fights "it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights." This weapon = Scything Talons of which it has 6 of.

Rules as written = 6 attacks
Rules as interpreted = 1 attack
Rules as probably intended = 2 attacks

**GodDamUser**

Zande4 wrote:
If you want to get really technical it's +6 attacks strictly RAW. Obviously this is wrong and no one is going to play it like that, it's so incredibly poorly worded.

col_impact is correct in saying that a pair of scything talons (of any size) is not a weapon profile. They are purchased in pairs, but the weapon profile does not mention "pair" anywhere.

The rule states:

"If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous / massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights."

You: Fight in the fight phase and elect to use a different scything talon for your 6 attacks, each one generating an additional attack as you have move than 1 pair.

Breakdown:

Does a Trygon have - "If the bearer has more than one pair of monstrous / massive scything talons," Yes

So when a Trygon fights "it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights." This weapon = Scything Talons of which it has 6 of.

Rules as written = 6 attacks
Rules as interpreted = 1 attack
Rules as probably intended = 2 attacks

Well no.. It is like with the chainsword.. the chainsword only get +1 attack no matter how many times you attack with it, but you get +1A for each chain sword you use.. the issue here is that Mon Scy Tlns (2 or more) is a single item.

So in the end it is either +1A (1 weapon) or +3A (3 pairs)