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 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I've always been of the opinion that the Codex-following Marine Chapters (which, for all intents and purposes, does include the Dark and Blood Angels) should be rolled into a single book.

Again, the way FW does the Legiones Astartes is the model they should be using for all but the most unique types of Marine formations (Wolves, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, etc.).

I can't really think of a reason why this wouldn't work. Make Codex Adherent and Codex Aberrant into just two books. It worked fairly well, IMO, for the Index. The second half of the book is where things go sideways between Space Wolves, Deathwatch, and Grey Knights.

This sounds like a good approach to me as well.

Is it weird I hope the TS are NOT in the heretic astrades codex, but will only come out later on?

 Galas wrote:
Warhammer40k IS Space Marines

Nah, that's 30k. I know you can't tell the difference, but to people who care about the lore and the tabletop game, there is a very big set of differences.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I've always been of the opinion that the Codex-following Marine Chapters (which, for all intents and purposes, does include the Dark and Blood Angels) should be rolled into a single book.

Again, the way FW does the Legiones Astartes is the model they should be using for all but the most unique types of Marine formations (Wolves, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, etc.).

This. I really liked that the index had a core with simple mods for the different lists, and think it makes so much more sense to use the HH/3rd edition model where you got mini-dex mods of the core armies (Marines, Orks, Guard, Eldar at very least got those, sometimes independent, sometimes collections, for those who aren't familiar). I was hoping they'd return to that model.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Is it weird I hope the TS are NOT in the heretic astrades codex, but will only come out later on?

If plague marines are getting their own book, it seems reasonable to suspect robot marines are getting their own book. Doing mini-dexes is probably the only way GW will clear 10 in a year. Which sadly leaves the lion's share of the main factions for next year.

 Melissia wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I'm not arguing that Power Armor should be first, I'm arguing that Power Armor is not the same exact army copy and pasted into many different books

It's not. But it's similar enough that you can devise an army that fits in to pretty much every single power armor book with no or minimal changes to what models you bring.

You can't do that with guard/orks/tyranids. Unlike the other armies, the various space marines are still just minor variations on each other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[...]

Design a list with a captain, tacticals, and terminators and you certainly could do it with both lists. Design one with assault marines, tacticals, and devastators, and you could with normal marines and csms. This is especially true of the current index armies.

Well at least you won't try and defend your point on Grey Knights, but you're wrong on Chaos Marines.
1. You might be able to compare Tactical Marines and Chaos Marines, but the difference being how you load them out. If your Chaos Marines weren't equipped with double special weapons or extra CCW's, then yes sure you're correct.
2. If you weren't equipping your Chaos Terminators with any Heavy weapons outside the heavy flamer and gave all of them Power Costs sure.
3. Assault Marines don't even function like Raptors...

So basically the CSM and SM Codices are interchangeable if you only use specific HQ's, and only Devastators/Tactical Marines. This is what your argument really is when you pick it apart. You're wrong. Just admit it, please.

Dudeface wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Marines are only unique and varied for people who play them. For everyone else they're a frustrating sea of power armor releases. "Oh but these guys have werewolves and those guys are gross though!" Pfft.

And Imperial Guard, Orks, and Tyranids are only varied for people who play them. For everyone else they are a frustrating sea of models on the table. Why do I need to wait for 3 of those books before I get a new [Color] Power Armor book? They are all the same "lots of models with crappy guns and even worse armor saves" armies. Oh, those guys are green and talk funny, and those guys wear green camo and get shot in the head for being scared a lot.

Remind me what the real difference between a raven guard troop choice (tactical marine or scout) and an iron hands troops choice (tactical marine or scout) and a blood angels troops choice (tactical marines or scouts) vs the differences between ork boyz, nid warriors and conscripts are please.

Except iron hands and raven guard are both in a single codex, and blood angels are one of the borderline cases.

The four codexes coming out are death guard (who have plague marines and poxwalkers), csm (cultists, CSM squads, cult troops), and grey knights (who are totally distinct from normal marines loadout and unit wise), plus plain marines, whose only real overlap is with CSM for normal tactical squads. Putting chaos marines and normal marines in codex together would either leave off all the demonic units, engines, and cult troops for chaos and all the exclusive tech imperial marines use. Grey knights literally have no overlap. The only legitimate complaint is possibly DG, who could be folded back into CSM given they like have only a handful of unique units, unless the release schedule is particularly robust.

I mean, it's not like CSM had to make do with one of the oldest codices all of 7th edition, only getting a decent update in the last 6 months of the edition invalidated shortly thereafter. So don't complain about CSM finally getting some attention. We finally get a little attention and suddenly everyone starts whining.

 Melissia wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Warhammer40k IS Space Marines

Nah, that's 30k. I know you can't tell the difference, but to people who care about the lore and the tabletop game, there is a very big set of differences.

Nice ad hominem! The funny thing is that I agree in all of your opinions about 30k! But don't let a honest discussiong get in the way of attacking random people on the internet!
The difference is that 40k is a Batman Movie with the Joker,Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, The Penguin, Sandman, etc... but the protagonist is still Batman.

And 30k is a one of those Batman comics where he meet all the other alternative Batmans and Robins.


And, about codex and all of that... I'm the only one upset about Loyalist having access to Tartarus and Cathapracti terminators but Chaos Marines Ones, that should have the most of those armours, can't? Is a little nitpicking of mine.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So basically the CSM and SM Codices are interchangeable if you only use specific HQ's, and only Devastators/Tactical Marines. This is what your argument really is when you pick it apart. You're wrong. Just admit it, please.

Or if you ignore the nitpicking over "this unit doesn't have the same special snowflake rules (which exist only to justify making a separate rulebook to buy) as this other unit" and look at broader concepts. Tactical marines are tactical marines, regardless of whether they get two special weapons or a special and a heavy. You can consolidate both units into a single rulebook entry and nothing of value would be lost. And the same is true of pretty much the entire marine model range. Give them one army list, a short set of "chapter tactics" rules for each chapter, and you can build an army that matches the fluff of any chapter you want even if the rules aren't exactly the same as they are in the current edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:
Grey knights literally have no overlap.

They also shouldn't exist at all, fluff-wise. Delete the GK codex, remove them as a standard army, and publish a one-page special mission where you can paint some tactical marines silver and use them against a force of demons.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Is it weird I hope the TS are NOT in the heretic astrades codex, but will only come out later on?

Rubric Marines and Plague Marines are probably both going to be in the Heretic Astartes codex since they are available to Black Legion, but beyond that I don't see any other units from those groups in there. It actually irritates me a lot that World Eaters and Emperor's Children don't receive the same treatment as Sons and Ick Marines.

 Galas wrote:
Nice ad hominem!

You're the one that said 40k "is" space marines.

Apparently, none of this is 40k to you:


So if none of that is 40k to you, what is it, exactly?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Is it weird I hope the TS are NOT in the heretic astrades codex, but will only come out later on?

Rubric Marines and Plague Marines are probably both going to be in the Heretic Astartes codex since they are available to Black Legion, but beyond that I don't see any other units from those groups in there. It actually irritates me a lot that World Eaters and Emperor's Children don't receive the same treatment as Sons and Ick Marines.

They probably will, in due time.

I can see khornate marines be given their own codex. It's been done in the past, hasn't it?

 Melissia wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Nice ad hominem!

You're the one that said 40k "is" space marines.

Apparently, none of this is 40k to you:

Spoiler:

So if none of that is 40k to you, what is it, exactly?

Sorry but "40K IS space marines" isn't equal to "40K IS ONLY space marines"

Space Marines are the protagonists of the setting. Thats just a reality. Everything else is a add-on to the Space Marines narrative. The ally npcs (Imperial Guard, Sororitas) the arch enemy (Chaos) the npc factions (Orks and Tyranids), etc...
Lets be clear. I'm only describing reality. I'll kill for a 40k more equitative with how they put attention on all of the different factions that enrich the universe and are generally much more interesting that Space Marines. But 40k is what GW wants it to be. And thats is Space Marines centric.

 Melissia wrote:
I can see khornate marines be given their own codex. It's been done in the past, hasn't it?

Yes. Khorne Daemonkin. I would rather they combined Khorne Daemonkin and World Eaters and put them into a World Eaters codex.

One thing I am a little concerned about is if Daemons might end up split up into separate codexes. What if the Thousand Sons codex is the only location Tzeentch Daemons are available?

I don't really mind the Index price point or the likely Codex price. I certainly understand why SM players might be happy/upset/feeling smart that they waited since they are getting the first codex so soon.

What I feel it's an issue for is recruiting new players. At some point, people just have to decide to buy in and deal with new releases/replacements, but with so much chaos, I find myself telling a few friends to just use battlescribe for now and then buy the codex when it comes out. These aren't people who are going to a tournament any time soon if at all or will even start playing seriously but people who are just starting to buy models and plan out a force. If they won't even finish assembling any kind of force large enough to play at a standard level and will only be playing exhibition 300/500 point games against me, I tell them to just battlescribe/Russian it up and buy the final codex to play against other people later.

It feels like a missed opportunity for GW to be more welcoming and encourage play/purchases. The counter argument is that AoS exists as a welcoming system and 40k is for the serious. GW got (probably a decent chunk of) money by selling indexes but by not having their app ready or free points, they encouraged some new people to go beyond the GW system to fit their needs.

 Fango wrote:
There are some fairly stark differences...Dark Angels have never been able to field a Landspeeder Storm, for instance...and in the 6th edition release, they got a bunch of new toys only they could take...Nephylim flyer, Deathwing Knights, Land Speeder Vengeance, Darkshroud, etc.

There's no particular reason for Dark Angels to not have access to Storms, other than just because it's not in their codex.


Similarly, there's not particular reason for the DA-specific units to only be available to DA. Likewise with Space Wolves, or Blood Angels. And making the ability to ride cavalry, or to have units suffering from uncontrollable blood lust, or having super-even-more-elite-than-elite Terminators or Bikers into generic options available to any army opens up so many more options for diversity in armies, while still allowing the Snowflake Chapters to be built as is. Tie other Chapter Specific bonuses to special characters, with different characters from each Chapter offering different bonuses, and you still get the Special Snowflake distinction without them needing a whole book to do it in.

So, looking at this page from the Warhammer 40k site...

Going strictly off of what they have listed there? We'd be looking at 26 codices.

I fully expect to see that number brought up to 28 or so though. Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh with their own books would match to Codex, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves.

Could also see Dark Mechanicus and Chaos Knights bringing us up to 30.

 Kanluwen wrote:
So, looking at this page from the Warhammer 40k site...

Going strictly off of what they have listed there? We'd be looking at 26 codices.

I fully expect to see that number brought up to 28 or so though. Nurgle, Khorne, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh with their own books would match to Codex, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves.

Could also see Dark Mechanicus and Chaos Knights bringing us up to 30.

Please no.

 Peregrine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So basically the CSM and SM Codices are interchangeable if you only use specific HQ's, and only Devastators/Tactical Marines. This is what your argument really is when you pick it apart. You're wrong. Just admit it, please.

Or if you ignore the nitpicking over "this unit doesn't have the same special snowflake rules (which exist only to justify making a separate rulebook to buy) as this other unit" and look at broader concepts. Tactical marines are tactical marines, regardless of whether they get two special weapons or a special and a heavy. You can consolidate both units into a single rulebook entry and nothing of value would be lost. And the same is true of pretty much the entire marine model range. Give them one army list, a short set of "chapter tactics" rules for each chapter, and you can build an army that matches the fluff of any chapter you want even if the rules aren't exactly the same as they are in the current edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:
Grey knights literally have no overlap.

They also shouldn't exist at all, fluff-wise. Delete the GK codex, remove them as a standard army, and publish a one-page special mission where you can paint some tactical marines silver and use them against a force of demons.

So ignore all the unique demonic units csm have, possessed marines, demon engines, cult troops? You aren't arguing they are the same, you are arguing they could be made the same if you stripped out everything unique and interesting about them. That's true but it's also a silly argument, as you could argue that about anything with varying degrees of absurdity.

In fact, if you want to share what army you play (and if you say eldar I'll probably die from laughter).

 Kanluwen wrote:

Could also see Dark Mechanicus and Chaos Knights bringing us up to 30.

Which is ridiculous. They should have just stuck with the indexes.


I mean, I'm all for having more diversity in the game, but there comes a point where it's effectively impossible for players to keep up. That was a vary large part of the problem with 6th/7th edition, and 8th seems all set to continue that trend.

 Melissia wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So if you take an army with not a single model/unit/weapon/rule that makes them Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Ultramarine/Space Wolves/Grey Knights....then could field an army as any one of those?

So you're saying Grey Knights don't use Terminators? Chaos Marines don't use Havocs? Space Wolves don't use Blood Claws / Sky Claws? Dark Angels don't use Tacticals? Blood Angels don't use Captains?

You're making an inane objection and you know it. The Space Marine sub-forces are quite similar. They have differences. But you can basically exchange one for the other with only minor differences. You can't exchange Orks and Imperial Guard and expect the same similarities like you claimed earlier.

Grey Knights may use terminators, but theyr'e a completely differant animal of terminator from regular marines. arguing GKs are no differant from ultramarines is as stupid as arguing sisters of battle aren't a distinct army and should just be folded into codex space marines. I mean they use power armor and rhinos right?

More options are good, if they are all supported and balanced.

I can understand asking for less options to Space Marines because they are just special when everyother just languish in slow agony...
But I don't see a problem with things that hare such strong character as the 4 Chaos Gods having their own codexs mixing cult marines+Demons.
They deserve them much more than Dark/Blood angels and SW, thats for sure.

But ey! At least they aren't Tyranids and Daemons! Those absurd armies, they don't belong in mah Warhammah!

BrianDavion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
So if you take an army with not a single model/unit/weapon/rule that makes them Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Ultramarine/Space Wolves/Grey Knights....then could field an army as any one of those?

So you're saying Grey Knights don't use Terminators? Chaos Marines don't use Havocs? Space Wolves don't use Blood Claws / Sky Claws? Dark Angels don't use Tacticals? Blood Angels don't use Captains?

You're making an inane objection and you know it. The Space Marine sub-forces are quite similar. They have differences. But you can basically exchange one for the other with only minor differences. You can't exchange Orks and Imperial Guard and expect the same similarities like you claimed earlier.

Grey Knights may use terminators, but theyr'e a completely differant animal of terminator from regular marines. arguing GKs are no differant from ultramarines is as stupid as arguing sisters of battle aren't a distinct army and should just be folded into codex space marines. I mean they use power armor and rhinos right?

Nah man! They have totally Not-Female-Tactical Marines supported by Not-Female-SternguardMarines all marching behind the strong Not-Female-Assault-MarinesWithPistols supported by Not-UnPowerArmoured-Chaplains! With a good ammount of vehicles like the Not-BDSM-Dreadnought and Not-Gothic-Whirlwind!

PD: GW give us Sisters of Battle now! Last warning!

 Galas wrote:
More options are good, if they are all supported and balanced.

I can understand asking for less options to Space Marines because they are just special when everyother just languish in slow agony...
But I don't see a problem with things that hare such strong character as the 4 Chaos Gods having their own codexs mixing cult marines+Demons.
They deserve them much more than Dark/Blood angels and SW, thats for sure.

The thing is, combining multiple similar armies into a single codex doesn't have to mean less options.

See the 2nd edition Chaos codex for an example of the Chaos codex done right, allowing fluffy God-specific armies while also allowing for crusade armies without losing any flavour.

See the 4th edition Marine codex or Guard codex for an example of codexes done almost right, potentially allowing for a huge range of variety from single books... in those specific cases let down by balance issues and poorly thought out options, but the underlying idea was fantastic.

From the current crop of Marine armies, Grey Knights and (arguably) Space Wolves are really the only ones that couldn't be easily rolled into a single book with a properly thought-out Chapter Trait system without really losing anything.

SilverAlien wrote:
So ignore all the unique demonic units csm have, possessed marines, demon engines, cult troops? You aren't arguing they are the same, you are arguing they could be made the same if you stripped out everything unique and interesting about them. That's true but it's also a silly argument, as you could argue that about anything with varying degrees of absurdity.

I never said that. My position is one book for all loyalist marines, one book for chaos (including cultists/demon engines/etc, with WHFB-style demons reduced to an option for summoning). Having a separate book for CSM isn't the problem, it's every special snowflake sub-faction of marines getting their own codex.

In fact, if you want to share what army you play (and if you say eldar I'll probably die from laughter).

It's in my signature, I play IG (specifically DKoK/ABG).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Grey Knights may use terminators, but theyr'e a completely differant animal of terminator from regular marines.

Not really. They have terminator armor, storm bolters, and power weapons. Stop looking at their current special snowflake rules and look at the fluff instead, and they can be represented just fine by C:SM terminators with a GK "chapter tactics" rule.

 insaniak wrote:

 Galas wrote:
More options are good, if they are all supported and balanced.

I can understand asking for less options to Space Marines because they are just special when everyother just languish in slow agony...
But I don't see a problem with things that hare such strong character as the 4 Chaos Gods having their own codexs mixing cult marines+Demons.
They deserve them much more than Dark/Blood angels and SW, thats for sure.

The thing is, combining multiple similar armies into a single codex doesn't have to mean less options.

See the 2nd edition Chaos codex for an example of the Chaos codex done right, allowing fluffy God-specific armies while also allowing for crusade armies without losing any flavour.

See the 4th edition Marine codex or Guard codex for an example of codexes done almost right, potentially allowing for a huge range of variety from single books... in those specific cases let down by balance issues and poorly thought out options, but the underlying idea was fantastic.

From the current crop of Marine armies, Grey Knights and (arguably) Space Wolves are really the only ones that couldn't be easily rolled into a single book with a properly thought-out Chapter Trait system without really losing anything.

It means less options. Thats a given. Now, we can discuss if that lost of options is really a lost to the game as a whole. I can agree with that. But is... disingenuous? To say that a single codex can have the amount of personality that different codexs can give a faction. For example, Skitarii lost some personality being mixed with Cult Mechanicus. But I think thats a good thing to the game as a whole.

BrianDavion wrote:
Grey Knights may use terminators, but theyr'e a completely differant animal of terminator from regular marines. arguing GKs are no differant from ultramarines is as stupid as arguing sisters of battle aren't a distinct army and should just be folded into codex space marines. I mean they use power armor and rhinos right?

Of course not. Sisters don't have a Marine statline, and in the lore they are not Space Marines, unlike Grey Knights, who have both a space marine statline and are, in fact, space marines in the lore-- so the comparison doesn't work as well. Next you're going to be trying to convince me that Orks are Marines because they both are toughness four or some other ridiculous nonsense.

And Grey Knight termies aren't really THAT different from normal termies in the end. "Completely different" my ass, they've still got the crux terminatus and terminator save, they've still got the teleport strike, they've still got combat squadding and ATSKNF, they've still got the storm bolter and power weapon, they've still got the reduced movement of a terminator unit. They've got some neat toys to play with and they're psykers-- which is par for the course for a Grey Knights unit. But they're still terminators in the end, and have all the amenities a terminator requires to be a terminator.

We could go on and on about this all day, but in the end, it's still a fact that what we're going to be getting is four different flavors of space marine in a row as our only announced releases thus far.

Galas: Goddamn you're trolling hard today. Try using less strawman arguments and more logic.

EDIT

 Galas wrote:
For example, Skitarii lost some personality being mixed with Cult Mechanicus.

Did they have to, though? I mean, if they lost 'personality' because GW chose to not include certain rules in the Mechanicus version, there would seem to be a fairly simple fix for that...

I like to do a mix between trolling and honest discussion, even more with people so agresive

 insaniak wrote:

 Galas wrote:
For example, Skitarii lost some personality being mixed with Cult Mechanicus.

Did they have to, though? I mean, if they lost 'personality' because GW chose to not include certain rules in the Mechanicus version, there would seem to be a fairly simple fix for that...

I'll be honest here. I don't play Skitarii didn't I bought their codex, but Kanluwen was talking the past week about how they lost a lot of rules and personality, thats why I used that example.