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HoundsofDemos wrote:
While I'm not a big perpetual fan, for the Horus Emperor battle to make sense with how both have been re-characterized something has to be tweaked. It's increasingly clear that Horus is having brief moments of doubts and that will play a bigger role than before. At the same time with how the Big E has been written, i'm not buying I want my favorite kid back. He's lately been shown to not give much of dam about any of them or people in general for that matter except the big picture.

I never really bought that the man who ordered billions to the slaughter would hold back after Horus murdered Sang, but lose it when Horus killed some random guardsmen. Additionally I don't recall guardsmen being able to survive IOM teleportation. I'm not sure how they are going to have it play out but the original story doesn't work even before the perpetual change.

I'm glad I'm not the only person who thought the story as presented was a bit... off

The problem is the story has evolved over the decades. For some reason I seem to think the early versions the clash with horus was in the fortress walls, hence how a guardsman was there but can’t for the life of me find out where I might have read that?

Either way when a story is retold so many times and was never fully told in any of the versions each time it changed a bit. It all added to myth of the heresy. And teleporting back in earlier editions was very diferent from today. Given how in accurate it was in 1st edition on the TT it was a miracle that the emperor and co hit the ship at all.

To be honest I have never even seen someone quote a passage with an Imperial Guardsman interceding during that battle. Oldest version I've seen had an Imperial Fist. Most I've seen quoted is that there was a legend about a guardsman (armyman?) called Ollanius Pius who died to save the Emperor but that's the extent and explicitly said to be a legend.

Even Lexicanum disputes that a Guardsman was ever said to be the one to die to Horus.

It has to be Ollanius. After all he’s the one that’s going to stab Horus with the athame dagger giving the chink in the armour that The Emperor needs to do the soul-bullet!

Mellow wrote:
It has to be Ollanius. After all he’s the one that’s going to stab Horus with the athame dagger giving the chink in the armour that The Emperor needs to do the soul-bullet!

I'm wondering if the chink might actually be from Russ' stabbing him with that spear. it's apparently giving Horus doubts.

I do agree that Ollanius makes sense, simply because if sanguinus isn't reason eneugh, the emperor being impacted by a guardsman or Imperial fist seems... unlikely, but Horus wacking a perpetual that the emperor has known for AGES? that COULD do it

The reason pius made sense was that was the reason the emperor was doin it all, for humanity. For the simple human. His friends, as the primarchs originally were, (same genetic story just less father son relationship) were less important to him than the humans. But worth the black library changing the character of the emperor (or giving him one depending on your take) it now doesn’t make sense.

I think they need to keep so that there is no definite story, and make that clear. Each person should have their version, to the imperial fists it was one of them, blood angles it was Sanguinius, average jo it was pius. To no one was it perpetual oll whoever because that stinks! Because, apart from one space marine in one picture hiding under the floor, everyone was toast in the room. Crispy and ruined. Only the emperor was around long enough to tell a version but the story has always been that Dorn “figured out what had happened” from the placing of the bodies in the room.

BrianDavion wrote:

Mellow wrote:
It has to be Ollanius. After all he’s the one that’s going to stab Horus with the athame dagger giving the chink in the armour that The Emperor needs to do the soul-bullet!

I'm wondering if the chink might actually be from Russ' stabbing him with that spear. it's apparently giving Horus doubts.

I do agree that Ollanius makes sense, simply because if sanguinus isn't reason eneugh, the emperor being impacted by a guardsman or Imperial fist seems... unlikely, but Horus wacking a perpetual that the emperor has known for AGES? that COULD do it

I think it will still be Sanguinius opening up the chink in the armour that allows the Emperor to deliver the killing blow. I think Russ wounding of Horus has laid the foundation for this though. Whether it's an actual chink in his armour or in his psyche we'll have to wait and see. There has been suggestions of both in vision scenes I believe from The Outcast Dead, Fear to Tread and I think Know no Fear, some by Kai Zulane and others by Oll himself.

Andykp wrote:
The reason pius made sense was that was the reason the emperor was doin it all, for humanity. For the simple human. His friends, as the primarchs originally were, (same genetic story just less father son relationship) were less important to him than the humans. But worth the black library changing the character of the emperor (or giving him one depending on your take) it now doesn’t make sense.

yeah that still makes no fething sense. None what so ever. How many people died in the Horus Heresy? Lots, even if we assume no attrocities where commited (which we know isn't the case, see emperor's children on terra) the colaterial damage from a 10 year civil war between the Legions would have been horrid. Hell the colaterial damage of the bloody great crusade was proably pretty high, Let's not mince facts, the Emperor has the blood of BILLIONS on his hands. whats the life of one generic guardsman in that situation? it's absolutely ludercris that after all that blood shed Horus directly killing a human man would be eneugh to send the Emperor into "super sayen bezerk mode"

Had the Emperor seen Horus actually destroy someone up close though until that point. He sees the ruined body of Sanguinius on the floor, he sees the monster that Horus has become, he feels Chaos all around him and then the bravest of the brave, a man and only a man confront the behemoth of Darkness and get torn asunder. He see's then for the first time that his son is truly lost and it's time for someone to receive a good spanking.

But yeah, it's a bit lame. He knows what Horrors Horus had released and the atrocities his allies had committed in his name, what's 1 individual death amongst the billions. Maybe it's that 1 death though that pushed him over the edge. Kinda Michael Douglas in Falling Down.

"I've been waiting for you, Father. We meet again at last. When I left you I was but a servant, now I am the master!"

"Only a master of evil, Horus"


"Your powers are weak old man!"


"You can't win Horus. If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine..."

"You should not have come back!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And later, from the ashes of the Battle of Terra, from the lips of Lorgar

"This will be a day long remembered. It has seen the end of th Emperor. It will soon the end of the Imperium!"

Yea, I always thought that the Emperor seeing Horus kill that guardsman who posed no threat to him was akin to seeing an adult stomp a baby to death. This is when the Emperor suddenly has the realization that the Horus he knew was gone and totally unsalvageable.

I think the tale lost it's poignancy when the guardsmen was changed to an Imperial Fist terminator, then to a custode. It was like GW didn't get the point of the guardsman.

^^ QFT.
A poor retcon.
And wasnt it said at one stage the guardsman is Pius? Making it even less significant since the guys a fething immortal.

w1zard wrote:
Yea, I always thought that the Emperor seeing Horus kill that guardsman who posed no threat to him was akin to seeing an adult stomp a baby to death. This is when the Emperor suddenly has the realization that the Horus he knew was gone and totally unsalvageable.

I think the tale lost it's poignancy when the guardsmen was changed to an Imperial Fist terminator, then to a custode. It was like GW didn't get the point of the guardsman.

That was the original take on it. It wasn’t that the act was shocking it was the casual way horus did it, he obliterated him, it was then that the emperor saw that there was no chance to save horus, he was damned so he had to kill him. Not out of rage, it didn’t piss him off as much as make him realise horus was doomed. Now that there is all this latent daddy issues and sibling rivalries it’s all got a bit too much like a soap opera now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:
^^ QFT.
A poor retcon.
And wasnt it said at one stage the guardsman is Pius? Making it even less significant since the guys a fething immortal.

He wasn’t immortal (originally). Then they made him one. Stupid. Only works if the emperor is a grown up and pius is a symbol of your average human.

It is part of the power inflation that GW has had over the years, much as how they have been doing size and crew inflation with their ships.

The whole point of the death was to show Horus was inflicting unnecessary cruelty (and gloating over it) upon an opponent that posed no threat whatsoever to him.

The changes to the story seem to show GW's later writers didn't quite grasp the symbolic point of it, or discarded it in favor of just pumping up the power.

I feel similarly in regards to GW hinting that Sanguinius accomplished something in his battle with Horus other than dying. The whole point of Sanguinius dying was to demonstrate his moral virtue in refusing to give up or defect despite having absolutely no chance of victory or accomplishing anything (and knowing it). It takes moral fortitude to still stand in the face of true hopelessness rather than trying and dying because one gambled and actually thought there was a chance.

I have at times wondered whether GW did it as a sop to BA fans upset about the idea of their Primarch dying without making any material dent against Horus.

Iracundus wrote:
It is part of the power inflation that GW has had over the years, much as how they have been doing size and crew inflation with their ships.

The whole point of the death was to show Horus was inflicting unnecessary cruelty (and gloating over it) upon an opponent that posed no threat whatsoever to him.

The changes to the story seem to show GW's later writers didn't quite grasp the symbolic point of it, or discarded it in favor of just pumping up the power.

I feel similarly in regards to GW hinting that Sanguinius accomplished something in his battle with Horus other than dying. The whole point of Sanguinius dying was to demonstrate his moral virtue in refusing to give up or defect despite having absolutely no chance of victory or accomplishing anything (and knowing it). It takes moral fortitude to still stand in the face of true hopelessness rather than trying and dying because one gambled and actually thought there was a chance.

I have at times wondered whether GW did it as a sop to BA fans upset about the idea of their Primarch dying without making any material dent against Horus.

No it takes STUPIDITY to rush in and get yourself killed instead of I dunno waiting for reinforcements.

How do you know that wasn’t the original plan after discovering the teleport had scattered? However after stumbling onto Horus, there would have been no escape or waiting around. Hours as Arch-Champion of Chaos would have had the ability and means to prevent that.

Iracundus wrote:
How do you know that wasn’t the original plan after discovering the teleport had scattered? However after stumbling onto Horus, there would have been no escape or waiting around. Hours as Arch-Champion of Chaos would have had the ability and means to prevent that.

we dunno what happened between Sanguinus and Horus for sure, but it's worth noting that ever since Sanny died, the Blood angels have been cursed with some of their members going back to that "blood line memory" and when they do they enter a bezerker rage.

That to ME suggests Sanguinis lost his head.... err figuraitivly speaking,

BrianDavion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
How do you know that wasn’t the original plan after discovering the teleport had scattered? However after stumbling onto Horus, there would have been no escape or waiting around. Hours as Arch-Champion of Chaos would have had the ability and means to prevent that.

we dunno what happened between Sanguinus and Horus for sure, but it's worth noting that ever since Sanny died, the Blood angels have been cursed with some of their members going back to that "blood line memory" and when they do they enter a bezerker rage.

That to ME suggests Sanguinis lost his head.... err figuraitivly speaking,

I am not sure I would draw the same conclusion. The Blood Angel suffering the Black Rage is effectively insane and believes they are Sanguinius. Their actions and thoughts do not have to necessarily reflect what actually happened. Tycho for example believed he had successfully killed Horus when actually Tycho had been killing an Ork.

Iracundus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
How do you know that wasn’t the original plan after discovering the teleport had scattered? However after stumbling onto Horus, there would have been no escape or waiting around. Hours as Arch-Champion of Chaos would have had the ability and means to prevent that.

we dunno what happened between Sanguinus and Horus for sure, but it's worth noting that ever since Sanny died, the Blood angels have been cursed with some of their members going back to that "blood line memory" and when they do they enter a bezerker rage.

That to ME suggests Sanguinis lost his head.... err figuraitivly speaking,

I am not sure I would draw the same conclusion. The Blood Angel suffering the Black Rage is effectively insane and believes they are Sanguinius. Their actions and thoughts do not have to necessarily reflect what actually happened. Tycho for example believed he had successfully killed Horus when actually Tycho had been killing an Ork.

This thread is long. And the purpose of it was to show that the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel and sent them flying with his voice.

Onething123456 wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
How do you know that wasn’t the original plan after discovering the teleport had scattered? However after stumbling onto Horus, there would have been no escape or waiting around. Hours as Arch-Champion of Chaos would have had the ability and means to prevent that.

we dunno what happened between Sanguinus and Horus for sure, but it's worth noting that ever since Sanny died, the Blood angels have been cursed with some of their members going back to that "blood line memory" and when they do they enter a bezerker rage.

That to ME suggests Sanguinis lost his head.... err figuraitivly speaking,

I am not sure I would draw the same conclusion. The Blood Angel suffering the Black Rage is effectively insane and believes they are Sanguinius. Their actions and thoughts do not have to necessarily reflect what actually happened. Tycho for example believed he had successfully killed Horus when actually Tycho had been killing an Ork.

This thread is long. And the purpose of it was to show that the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel and sent them flying with his voice.

welcome to internet discussions where the topic slowly meanders along

Onething123456 wrote:

This thread is long. And the purpose of it was to show that the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel and sent them flying with his voice.

And we have successfully used it to discuss everything from Perpetuals to Sanguinius.

 Karhedron wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

This thread is long. And the purpose of it was to show that the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel and sent them flying with his voice.

And we have successfully used it to discuss everything from Perpetuals to Sanguinius.

Go ahead.

 Karhedron wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

This thread is long. And the purpose of it was to show that the Emperor forced the Word Bearers to kneel and sent them flying with his voice.

And we have successfully used it to discuss everything from Perpetuals to Sanguinius.

Is there slave coding with the Primarchs and Marines or did DarknessEternal just bs that up? I have been following 40k for years and have never heard of it. My friend has been following since 2nd Edition and has never heard of it.

I could’ve sworn this thread was dead.

Andykp wrote:
I could’ve sworn this thread was dead.

Probably should have but to address the above raised point there is no hard evidence of any marine being slaved coded. There is plenty of references aplenty to mental conditioning, mind wipes when they see to much of the bad touch stuff and general indoctrination to be loyal to their commanders and IOM in general. It's clear though from the start of the Heresy that slave coding is nonsense. Horus wouldn't have purged a large portion of the legions under his command if he felt he could just order them to his side. Instead he had a disastrous start to his own hidden campaign by wasting months fighting his own guys.

BrianDavion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
How do you know that wasn’t the original plan after discovering the teleport had scattered? However after stumbling onto Horus, there would have been no escape or waiting around. Hours as Arch-Champion of Chaos would have had the ability and means to prevent that.

we dunno what happened between Sanguinus and Horus for sure, but it's worth noting that ever since Sanny died, the Blood angels have been cursed with some of their members going back to that "blood line memory" and when they do they enter a bezerker rage.

That to ME suggests Sanguinis lost his head.... err figuraitivly speaking,

I like to think it is something to do with the Blood Angels drinking the blood of their dead Primarch.

Omophagea, also called the Remembrancer, lets space marines recall the memory from the tissue of a being they consume.

By consuming their Primarch's blood the Blood Angels poison their own minds with the dieing memories of Sanguinius.

On topic:

Perhaps the forced kneel was an act of technomancy? Was it the spacemarines that were forced to kneel, or the suits of power armour which they were presumably wearing?

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I could’ve sworn this thread was dead.

Probably should have but to address the above raised point there is no hard evidence of any marine being slaved coded. There is plenty of references aplenty to mental conditioning, mind wipes when they see to much of the bad touch stuff and general indoctrination to be loyal to their commanders and IOM in general. It's clear though from the start of the Heresy that slave coding is nonsense. Horus wouldn't have purged a large portion of the legions under his command if he felt he could just order them to his side. Instead he had a disastrous start to his own hidden campaign by wasting months fighting his own guys.

So @DarknessEternal is full of nonsense. Mind wipes are a different thing, and so is mental conditioning. Its not slave coding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I could’ve sworn this thread was dead.

Probably should have but to address the above raised point there is no hard evidence of any marine being slaved coded. There is plenty of references aplenty to mental conditioning, mind wipes when they see to much of the bad touch stuff and general indoctrination to be loyal to their commanders and IOM in general. It's clear though from the start of the Heresy that slave coding is nonsense. Horus wouldn't have purged a large portion of the legions under his command if he felt he could just order them to his side. Instead he had a disastrous start to his own hidden campaign by wasting months fighting his own guys.

@DarknessEternal was lying. Got it.

Darknesseternal wasn’t lying. He was theorising. That’s a different thing. He was suggesting a possible different way to view things. He did do it in a way that pushed your buttons but no malice.

Andykp wrote:
Darknesseternal wasn’t lying. He was theorising. That’s a different thing. He was suggesting a possible different way to view things. He did do it in a way that pushed your buttons but no malice.

No such thing as slave coding with Primarchs and Marines. He was probably lying since I and other readers have never heard of it before that.

Onething123456 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Darknesseternal wasn’t lying. He was theorising. That’s a different thing. He was suggesting a possible different way to view things. He did do it in a way that pushed your buttons but no malice.

No such thing as slave coding with Primarchs and Marines. He was probably lying since I and other readers have never heard of it before that.

proposing contrary ideas does NOT mean lying. and if you think that christ I bet you don't have a lot of friends