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HoundsofDemos wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
re Horus there's fairly constant debate, in universe as to how much of his choice was his own free will and how much he's being controled by chaos.

He was still not going to join Chaos at first when hit with the blade. It was his choice. And It was also Magnus' choice to disobey the Emperor and join Chaos.(He wanted to find a new place for his Legion in the Eye of Terror, but it was his choice.)

You seem to have a very black and white view of the world and seem to miss that a lot of subtleties to human behavior. Considering Horus's state when he fell, there is a strong but not conclusive argument that he didn't really choose it willingly and even if willing made a choice based on extremely misleading information. Magnus is an even more problematic case to pin down one way or the other since he and his sons had been manipulated to a degree their entire lives, he only fell to save his legion and then he shattered into multiple piece.

Do you have quote for Horus? Because all of the reviews about False Gods on Reddit and other sites say it was his own choice.



And it was Magnus wanting to know more about the warp and master it that eventually led to him disobeying the Emperor and joining.



I'm reading it, and as Horus was unconscious or something from the blade, Erebus was still trying to manipulate him into joining Chaos, and Horus was in control of his free will.

With Magnus tzeentch was manipulating him in his investigations into sorcery from day one. It had its schemes all worked out and regardless of free will Magnus was left in a position where his only choice was to turn or else be killed and his legion destroyed.

For horus I think it’s more subtle but he was manipulated in more subtle ways through temptation and stroking his ego and being made to believe that he would be and was better than the emperor. Their free will was subverted by the machinations of the chaos gods.

Andykp wrote:
With Magnus tzeentch was manipulating him in his investigations into sorcery from day one. It had its schemes all worked out and regardless of free will Magnus was left in a position where his only choice was to turn or else be killed and his legion destroyed.

For horus I think it’s more subtle but he was manipulated in more subtle ways through temptation and stroking his ego and being made to believe that he would be and was better than the emperor. Their free will was subverted by the machinations of the chaos gods.

Prove it was subverted with a quote.



And Magnus chose Tzeentch of his own free will.


Its not like the Chaos Gods just used their power to magically take away Horus' and Magnus' free will. They joined willingly, even if manipulated.



I read False Gods, and even as Horus was dead/unconscious, Erebus had to lie to get his attention. It was their own choice to join Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
With Magnus tzeentch was manipulating him in his investigations into sorcery from day one. It had its schemes all worked out and regardless of free will Magnus was left in a position where his only choice was to turn or else be killed and his legion destroyed.

For horus I think it’s more subtle but he was manipulated in more subtle ways through temptation and stroking his ego and being made to believe that he would be and was better than the emperor. Their free will was subverted by the machinations of the chaos gods.

Horus even said near the end that he made his choice when telling off and rejecting (what they said) Erebus and Magnus themselves.

Onething123456 wrote:
Its not like the Chaos Gods just used their power to magically take away Horus' and Magnus' free will. They joined willingly, even if manipulated.

It really depends on how you look at it. Sure you can argue that Magnus and others made the choices (free will) that put themselves in the position of having to choose death or turning to chaos, and thus it is their own fault.

However you can also make the argument that they were being manipulated and subtly influenced into making those choices by those who wished them ill, and therefore their free will was not wholly present during those decisions. By extension, some (if not all of the blame) must fall on the people doing the manipulating.

If I go out of my way to manipulate someone into murdering someone else through the use of mind games, lies, and careful manipulations of situations to drive the person to make that horrible decision, am I not to blame? Even if the person I am manipulating is the one who actually committed the murder and not me.

w1zard wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
Its not like the Chaos Gods just used their power to magically take away Horus' and Magnus' free will. They joined willingly, even if manipulated.

It really depends on how you look at it. Sure you can argue that Magnus and others made the choices (free will) that put themselves in the position of having to choose death or turning to chaos, and thus it is their fault.

However you can also make the argument that they were being manipulated and subtly influenced into making those choices by those who wished them ill, and therefore their free will was not wholly present during those decisions. By extension, some (if not all of the blame) must fall on the people doing the manipulating.

If I go out of my way to manipulate someone into murdering someone else through the use of mind games, lies, and careful manipulations of situations to drive the person to make that horrible decision, am I not to blame? Even if the person I am manipulating is the one who committed the murder.

Lying to Horus and his brothers and getting them to join that way is manipulating, but its not Chaos using its power to magically/psychically make them join against their own free will.

Onething123456 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
Its not like the Chaos Gods just used their power to magically take away Horus' and Magnus' free will. They joined willingly, even if manipulated.

It really depends on how you look at it. Sure you can argue that Magnus and others made the choices (free will) that put themselves in the position of having to choose death or turning to chaos, and thus it is their fault.

However you can also make the argument that they were being manipulated and subtly influenced into making those choices by those who wished them ill, and therefore their free will was not wholly present during those decisions. By extension, some (if not all of the blame) must fall on the people doing the manipulating.

If I go out of my way to manipulate someone into murdering someone else through the use of mind games, lies, and careful manipulations of situations to drive the person to make that horrible decision, am I not to blame? Even if the person I am manipulating is the one who committed the murder.

Lying to Horus and his brothers and getting them to join that way is manipulating, but its not Chaos using its power to magically/psychically make them join against their own free will.

Read the last paragraph of my post again. Carefully this time.

w1zard wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
Its not like the Chaos Gods just used their power to magically take away Horus' and Magnus' free will. They joined willingly, even if manipulated.

It really depends on how you look at it. Sure you can argue that Magnus and others made the choices (free will) that put themselves in the position of having to choose death or turning to chaos, and thus it is their fault.

However you can also make the argument that they were being manipulated and subtly influenced into making those choices by those who wished them ill, and therefore their free will was not wholly present during those decisions. By extension, some (if not all of the blame) must fall on the people doing the manipulating.

If I go out of my way to manipulate someone into murdering someone else through the use of mind games, lies, and careful manipulations of situations to drive the person to make that horrible decision, am I not to blame? Even if the person I am manipulating is the one who committed the murder.

Lying to Horus and his brothers and getting them to join that way is manipulating, but its not Chaos using its power to magically/psychically make them join against their own free will.

Read the last paragraph of my post again. Carefully this time.

Mind games? Magnus and Horus joined willingly. Horus was in control of himself when he told Erebus and Magnus on page 326 in False Gods that he has made his choice. Same goes for Magnus' free will. Unless by mind games you mean showing Horus visions, then no.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
Its not like the Chaos Gods just used their power to magically take away Horus' and Magnus' free will. They joined willingly, even if manipulated.

It really depends on how you look at it. Sure you can argue that Magnus and others made the choices (free will) that put themselves in the position of having to choose death or turning to chaos, and thus it is their fault.

However you can also make the argument that they were being manipulated and subtly influenced into making those choices by those who wished them ill, and therefore their free will was not wholly present during those decisions. By extension, some (if not all of the blame) must fall on the people doing the manipulating.

If I go out of my way to manipulate someone into murdering someone else through the use of mind games, lies, and careful manipulations of situations to drive the person to make that horrible decision, am I not to blame? Even if the person I am manipulating is the one who committed the murder.

Lying to Horus and his brothers and getting them to join that way is manipulating, but its not Chaos using its power to magically/psychically make them join against their own free will.

Read the last paragraph of my post again. Carefully this time.

And yes, I did your post.

Legally speaking Magnus certainly would not have been viewed as having a choice. He essentially had a gun to his head due to Chaos manipulating several other actors including himself. Join or Die and also all your kids die to isn't exactly what I would consider the height of free will.

Horus is much subtler but again there is a strong argument to be made that how willing his choice was. He was on his deathbed after being injured by a nurgle tainted blade and then subjected to a chaos fulled vision quest and subjected to outright lies and manipulation. How much agency he truly had at that moment is questionable.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Legally speaking Magnus certainly would not have been viewed as having a choice. He essentially had a gun to his head due to Chaos manipulating several other actors including himself. Join or Die and also all your kids die to isn't exactly what I would consider the height of free will.

Horus is much subtler but again there is a strong argument to be made that how willing his choice was. He was on his deathbed after being injured by a nurgle tainted blade and then subjected to a chaos fulled vision quest and subjected to outright lies and manipulation. How much agency he truly had at that moment is questionable.

Magnus still had his free will.


Read False Gods. Horus was not under the influence of Chaos. Erebus was TRYING to manipulate him even after he had been hit by the blade and lay dead/unconscious. Horus then revealed he knew it was not Sejanus, but for some reason, even after rejecting Erebus AND Magnus, he chose to join Chaos, probably so he could "prevent himself from being forgotten by the Imperium."



What I mean is that they were not being mind-controlled or will-controlled or magically/psychically forced or whatever,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Legally speaking Magnus certainly would not have been viewed as having a choice. He essentially had a gun to his head due to Chaos manipulating several other actors including himself. Join or Die and also all your kids die to isn't exactly what I would consider the height of free will.

Horus is much subtler but again there is a strong argument to be made that how willing his choice was. He was on his deathbed after being injured by a nurgle tainted blade and then subjected to a chaos fulled vision quest and subjected to outright lies and manipulation. How much agency he truly had at that moment is questionable.

Were they manipulated? Yes. Were they not in control of themselves and could not reject Chaos even if they tried? No.

I agree they were not mind controlled or actively forced. But whether someone is really making a free and informed decision is more of a spectrum than a hard yes or no. Horus for example was in a situation explicitly designed for him to reach a particular decision, via physical harm, emotional manipulation, and outright falsehoods. A better way to put it, is Horus thought he was making a choice of his own volition but he was really railroaded by chaos and doomed by the Emperor not explaining how the universe really worked.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I agree they were not mind controlled or actively forced. But whether someone is really making a free and informed decision is more of a spectrum than a hard yes or no. Horus for example was in a situation explicitly designed for him to reach a particular decision, via physical harm, emotional manipulation, and outright falsehoods. A better way to put it, is Horus thought he was making a choice of his own volition but he was really railroaded by chaos and doomed by the Emperor not explaining how the universe really worked.

I agree. Personally, I think Horus' fall was badly written. I probably would not have fallen for Erebus' nonsense even at 13 years old.

I never said he had his free will magically taken away. That’s not what manipulated means. He was made offers he couldn’t refuse due to his character flaws. Offers and promises which when he accepted them would lead down a path. At some point he would have had to make the choice but by then he would have so far down the rabbit hole that, because of the “manipulation” of events and people around him, turning to chaos seemed like the best or only option that made sense to his arrogant self. That’s how manipulation works and I don’t need to provide an out of context quote to prove it, everything written about how chaos manipulates and influences the mortal universe demonstrates that this is how the Work.

If you think they chose of free will and had no coercion or manipulatation then you need to read all of the 40k fluff again, not just the BL garbage, but all of it. As you are missing the point hugely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I agree they were not mind controlled or actively forced. But whether someone is really making a free and informed decision is more of a spectrum than a hard yes or no. Horus for example was in a situation explicitly designed for him to reach a particular decision, via physical harm, emotional manipulation, and outright falsehoods. A better way to put it, is Horus thought he was making a choice of his own volition but he was really railroaded by chaos and doomed by the Emperor not explaining how the universe really worked.

I agree. Personally, I think Horus' fall was badly written. I probably would not have fallen for Erebus' nonsense even at 13 years old.

Are you 13 years old, if so that explains a lot and I will go easier on u.

The HH books may not be the best-written works of fiction, but you're not going to get a clear declaration that says "Horus was manipulated by Chaos" or "Magnus knew exactly what he was doing, it was all his choice". That's not how even half-decent writing works. The whole point of manipulation, coercion and misdirection is the subject is unaware it's happening. Horus saying he saw through all of Erebus's tricks and chose to follow Chaos can't be taken at face value due to the very nature of Chaos. The gods know they're dealing with an extremely intelligent, powerful individual, so their scheming has to be especially subtle. It seems much more likely they allowed Horus to think he had got the better of them, in order for him to think it was his idea. We see later he still suffers from this delusion after he emerges from the warp gate on Molech and believes himself to be a god. I'm pretty sure there's also a passage when he's fighting Russ and the veil of Chaos slips briefly and Horus says something along the lines of he's trapped on his current path, and he seems to show regret and remorse, however briefly, which would also indicate he really didn't understand what he was agreeing to.

Also, Onething, just so you know, Reddit isn't exactly known as being the most reliable source of information so probably best not to use that as evidence for any argument.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Legally speaking Magnus certainly would not have been viewed as having a choice. He essentially had a gun to his head due to Chaos manipulating several other actors including himself. Join or Die and also all your kids die to isn't exactly what I would consider the height of free will.

Horus is much subtler but again there is a strong argument to be made that how willing his choice was. He was on his deathbed after being injured by a nurgle tainted blade and then subjected to a chaos fulled vision quest and subjected to outright lies and manipulation. How much agency he truly had at that moment is questionable.

The view of this depends on how your culture views crimes and punishment. The U.S for example, is notable in that it is extremely hard on criminals, and there is a strong sense of individual accountability in that our justice system and our society usually don't care about the circumstances behind what caused someone to commit a criminal act. These circumstances are held to be the criminal's own problems, and thus are an extension of the criminal's individuality and his/her own responsibility to manage. Mental illness or ignorance of the law is never considered to be an acceptable defense, and the insanity defense is a notoriously hard standard to meet. Even when the insanity defense is met, it often means involuntary commitment to a mental health facility (a slightly nicer prison) far in excess of what the crime would have earned in prison time. Under this kind of philosophy Magnus is guilty and it's his own fault... him being manipulated into the situation is irrelevant.

Contrast this with certain countries who view crime and criminality as at least partially a failure of society. This philosophy holds that (most) criminals (usually first time offenders) are the result of society failing to provide the necessary resources or guidance, or causing the criminal in question to be placed in a situation where crime was considered mandatory to meet a need (for example, a junkie stealing money to buy drugs). Thus it is society's duty to rehabilitate the criminal and make sure that the lack of resources/guidance is remedied. Under this kind of philosophy Magnus is much less culpable for his actions.

Personally I fall somewhere between the two extremes.

Andykp wrote:
I never said he had his free will magically taken away. That’s not what manipulated means. He was made offers he couldn’t refuse due to his character flaws. Offers and promises which when he accepted them would lead down a path. At some point he would have had to make the choice but by then he would have so far down the rabbit hole that, because of the “manipulation” of events and people around him, turning to chaos seemed like the best or only option that made sense to his arrogant self. That’s how manipulation works and I don’t need to provide an out of context quote to prove it, everything written about how chaos manipulates and influences the mortal universe demonstrates that this is how the Work.

If you think they chose of free will and had no coercion or manipulatation then you need to read all of the 40k fluff again, not just the BL garbage, but all of it. As you are missing the point hugely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Onething123456 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I agree they were not mind controlled or actively forced. But whether someone is really making a free and informed decision is more of a spectrum than a hard yes or no. Horus for example was in a situation explicitly designed for him to reach a particular decision, via physical harm, emotional manipulation, and outright falsehoods. A better way to put it, is Horus thought he was making a choice of his own volition but he was really railroaded by chaos and doomed by the Emperor not explaining how the universe really worked.

I agree. Personally, I think Horus' fall was badly written. I probably would not have fallen for Erebus' nonsense even at 13 years old.

Are you 13 years old, if so that explains a lot and I will go easier on u.

I am actually 20 years old.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:
The HH books may not be the best-written works of fiction, but you're not going to get a clear declaration that says "Horus was manipulated by Chaos" or "Magnus knew exactly what he was doing, it was all his choice". That's not how even half-decent writing works. The whole point of manipulation, coercion and misdirection is the subject is unaware it's happening. Horus saying he saw through all of Erebus's tricks and chose to follow Chaos can't be taken at face value due to the very nature of Chaos. The gods know they're dealing with an extremely intelligent, powerful individual, so their scheming has to be especially subtle. It seems much more likely they allowed Horus to think he had got the better of them, in order for him to think it was his idea. We see later he still suffers from this delusion after he emerges from the warp gate on Molech and believes himself to be a god. I'm pretty sure there's also a passage when he's fighting Russ and the veil of Chaos slips briefly and Horus says something along the lines of he's trapped on his current path, and he seems to show regret and remorse, however briefly, which would also indicate he really didn't understand what he was agreeing to.

Also, Onething, just so you know, Reddit isn't exactly known as being the most reliable source of information so probably best not to use that as evidence for any argument.

Why isn't it? Its not always the best but a lot of Godlike feats I got were from there and Naruto Forums (Such as Vulkan overpowering a planet destroying Ork engine, having "The weight of a planet fell on his shoulders." and having the planet shake when "The world Groaned." https://www.amazon.com/Hunt-Vulkan-Beast-Arises/dp/1784961825).



Horus revealed he knew Erebus was not Sejanus even before the reveal and Magnus came by saying he was not Sejanus before all of that.



And I read False Gods. Reddit in accurate on it.

w1zard wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Legally speaking Magnus certainly would not have been viewed as having a choice. He essentially had a gun to his head due to Chaos manipulating several other actors including himself. Join or Die and also all your kids die to isn't exactly what I would consider the height of free will.

Horus is much subtler but again there is a strong argument to be made that how willing his choice was. He was on his deathbed after being injured by a nurgle tainted blade and then subjected to a chaos fulled vision quest and subjected to outright lies and manipulation. How much agency he truly had at that moment is questionable.

The view of this depends on how your culture views crimes and punishment. The U.S for example, is notable in that it is extremely hard on criminals, and there is a strong sense of individual accountability in that our justice system and our society usually don't care about the circumstances behind what caused someone to commit a criminal act. These circumstances are held to be the criminal's own problems, and thus are an extension of the criminal's individuality and his/her own responsibility to manage. Mental illness or ignorance of the law is never considered to be an acceptable defense, and the insanity defense is a notoriously hard standard to meet. Even when the insanity defense is met, it often means involuntary commitment to a mental health facility (a slightly nicer prison) far in excess of what the crime would have earned in prison time. Under this kind of philosophy Magnus is guilty and it's his own fault... him being manipulated into the situation is irrelevant.

Contrast this with certain countries who view crime and criminality as at least partially a failure of society. This philosophy holds that (most) criminals (usually first time offenders) are the result of society failing to provide the necessary resources or guidance, or causing the criminal in question to be placed in a situation where crime was considered mandatory to meet a need (for example, a junkie stealing money to buy drugs). Thus it is society's duty to rehabilitate the criminal and make sure that the lack of resources/guidance is remedied. Under this kind of philosophy Magnus is much less culpable for his actions.

Personally I fall somewhere between the two extremes.

Did you just manage to muse on sociological theory on the internet without insulting anyone or swerving to on extreme view? Have a much deserved exalt my friend!

w1zard wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Legally speaking Magnus certainly would not have been viewed as having a choice. He essentially had a gun to his head due to Chaos manipulating several other actors including himself. Join or Die and also all your kids die to isn't exactly what I would consider the height of free will.

Horus is much subtler but again there is a strong argument to be made that how willing his choice was. He was on his deathbed after being injured by a nurgle tainted blade and then subjected to a chaos fulled vision quest and subjected to outright lies and manipulation. How much agency he truly had at that moment is questionable.

The view of this depends on how your culture views crimes and punishment. The U.S for example, is notable in that it is extremely hard on criminals, and there is a strong sense of individual accountability in that our justice system and our society usually don't care about the circumstances behind what caused someone to commit a criminal act. These circumstances are held to be the criminal's own problems, and thus are an extension of the criminal's individuality and his/her own responsibility to manage. Mental illness or ignorance of the law is never considered to be an acceptable defense, and the insanity defense is a notoriously hard standard to meet. Even when the insanity defense is met, it often means involuntary commitment to a mental health facility (a slightly nicer prison) far in excess of what the crime would have earned in prison time. Under this kind of philosophy Magnus is guilty and it's his own fault... him being manipulated into the situation is irrelevant.

Contrast this with certain countries who view crime and criminality as at least partially a failure of society. This philosophy holds that (most) criminals (usually first time offenders) are the result of society failing to provide the necessary resources or guidance, or causing the criminal in question to be placed in a situation where crime was considered mandatory to meet a need (for example, a junkie stealing money to buy drugs). Thus it is society's duty to rehabilitate the criminal and make sure that the lack of resources/guidance is remedied. Under this kind of philosophy Magnus is much less culpable for his actions.

Personally I fall somewhere between the two extremes.

It';s worth noting that, IIRC, even in the US justice system, a contract signed under duress is considered Invalid (if I put a gun to your head and force you to sign a contract selling me your ancestral home for a penny it's not enforceable)
and for criminal actions duress is considered a mitigating factor.

BrianDavion wrote:
It';s worth noting that, IIRC, even in the US justice system, a contract signed under duress is considered Invalid (if I put a gun to your head and force you to sign a contract selling me your ancestral home for a penny it's not enforceable)
and for criminal actions duress is considered a mitigating factor.

In the U.S (not sure about other countries), mitigating factors have been getting less and less consideration in sentencing decisions recently. With the passage of mandatory minimum sentence laws, and a public push to eliminate judicial discretion because of perceived biases toward wealthy, white defendants... I am not sure your second point is so true any more.

As for your first point you are correct, but entering a contract has it's own laws and regulations surrounding that and is entirely separate from committing a crime. Certainly if a man who just robbed a bank jumps into my car, points a gun at my head and tells me to evade the police... and I comply with his demands to save my own life, I would most assuredly not be charged with aiding and abetting a criminal. However with the comparison to Magnus that is not what we are talking about here. Chaos never put a gun to Magnus' head and told him to join or die. Chaos manipulated Magnus so that he put HIMSELF in that situation, with Russ the one holding the gun. If the bank robber manipulates or lies to me in order to get me to be a getaway driver for him robbing the bank, I am almost certainly more likely to be charged as an accomplice.

A good example of this is the wife of the pulse nightclub shooter who was charged with aiding him despite slim evidence. She was acquitted, but most of the best prosecutors in the state attempted to bury her for just being associated with him.

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It';s worth noting that, IIRC, even in the US justice system, a contract signed under duress is considered Invalid (if I put a gun to your head and force you to sign a contract selling me your ancestral home for a penny it's not enforceable)
and for criminal actions duress is considered a mitigating factor.

In the U.S (not sure about other countries), mitigating factors have been getting less and less consideration in sentencing decisions recently. With the passage of mandatory minimum sentence laws, and a public push to eliminate judicial discretion because of perceived biases toward wealthy, white defendants... I am not sure your second point is so true any more.

As for your first point you are correct, but entering a contract has it's own laws and regulations surrounding that and is entirely separate from committing a crime. Certainly if a man who just robbed a bank jumps into my car, points a gun at my head and tells me to evade the police... and I comply with his demands to save my own life, I would most assuredly not be charged with aiding and abetting a criminal. However with the comparison to Magnus that is not what we are talking about here. Chaos never put a gun to Magnus' head and told him to join or die. Chaos manipulated Magnus so that he put HIMSELF in that situation, with Russ the one holding the gun. If the bank robber manipulates or lies to me in order to get me to be a getaway driver for him robbing the bank, I am almost certainly more likely to be charged as an accomplice.

A good example of this is the wife of the pulse nightclub shooter who was charged with aiding him despite slim evidence. She was acquitted, but most of the best prosecutors in the state attempted to bury her for just being associated with him.

Haven't had to discuss duress since law school but the 4th element is that anyone trying to claim that defense must get pulled into the criminal act through no fault of their own. I'd say Magnus would likely flunk that part of the test.

Only in the US. He would probably be able to have charges reduced over here.

Free will is a bit of a myth, all actions have consequences and most people have morals of some sort. So we are often restricted in our actions by what we can morally accept our actions to be. And also outside influences limit our responses too. So free will normally boils down to a few options rather than do whatever you want. That my opinion any way. There is no point in chaos in 40k if they aren’t manipulating things behind the scenes. That’s their role.

Andykp wrote:
Free will is a bit of a myth...

Oh I agree completely.

My Opinion: (Feel free to take with a healthy dose of salt and disagree if you wish)

I am not a determinist however, I don't believe the future is set or anything. I do believe though that if you really understood how a person's brain works at a fundamental level, you can 100% reliably predict their every response to an outside stimuli. We are biological Turing machines.

w1zard wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Free will is a bit of a myth...

Oh I agree completely.

My Opinion: (Feel free to take with a healthy dose of salt and disagree if you wish)

Spoiler:

Prison shouldn't be about punishment, it should be about separating dangerous people from the rest of society while their "wiring" is being fixed. If they cannot be fixed then they must be separated indefinitely for the good of themselves and of others.

A person doesn't 'choose' to be a criminal any more than someone 'chooses' to be gay, or 'chooses' to have red hair or 'chooses' to be born into a poor family. We are born with a certain set of DNA (outside of our control) that grows and develops into a neurological pattern based on the experiences of our childhood (outside of our control) that dictates our actions and responses to outside stimuli (outside of our control). Free will is an illusion, ALL of our 'choices' in our lives have already been predetermined by our brain chemistry and the future is just 'choices' that we have not yet acted out.

People don't just say "You know what? I am going to be evil now and do bad things"... oftentimes people who commit crimes don't comprehend how they are hurting others, or they do and justify that hurt by how much the crime benefits them. Both of these are evidence of "logic errors" or deficiencies in the algorithm of a person's decision making process. Whether or not these "logic errors" can ultimately be fixed is beyond my pay grade, but I sincerely believe that most can.

I am not a determinist however, I don't believe the future is set or anything. I do believe though that if you really understood how a person's brain works at a fundamental level, you can 100% reliably predict their every response to an outside stimuli. We are biological Turing machines.

I probably wouldn’t go that far but do agree to an extent. I think there is much more we have to learn. Recent studies have shown that men can pass on behavioural traits via sperm cells as the conditions they are created in changes them and passes on information about the behaviour that created them. I think we are only scratching the surface of this stuff. Gene switches and the things brought up by the genome project have made the issue so much more complex than we thought. There are so many individual variables that go into brain function I don’t think behaviour could be predicted 100%, the level of knowledge you would need of the individual would be impossible to map. And the effects of the other systems in the body too. Hormones are a massively powerful driver of behaviour. There’s a lot to consider.

Andykp wrote:
I probably wouldn’t go that far but do agree to an extent. I think there is much more we have to learn. Recent studies have shown that men can pass on behavioural traits via sperm cells as the conditions they are created in changes them and passes on information about the behaviour that created them. I think we are only scratching the surface of this stuff. Gene switches and the things brought up by the genome project have made the issue so much more complex than we thought. There are so many individual variables that go into brain function I don’t think behaviour could be predicted 100%, the level of knowledge you would need of the individual would be impossible to map. And the effects of the other systems in the body too. Hormones are a massively powerful driver of behaviour. There’s a lot to consider.

Just because the algorithm is complex doesn't mean it is non-deterministic .

Same input, same process, same variables -----> same output.

w1zard wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I probably wouldn’t go that far but do agree to an extent. I think there is much more we have to learn. Recent studies have shown that men can pass on behavioural traits via sperm cells as the conditions they are created in changes them and passes on information about the behaviour that created them. I think we are only scratching the surface of this stuff. Gene switches and the things brought up by the genome project have made the issue so much more complex than we thought. There are so many individual variables that go into brain function I don’t think behaviour could be predicted 100%, the level of knowledge you would need of the individual would be impossible to map. And the effects of the other systems in the body too. Hormones are a massively powerful driver of behaviour. There’s a lot to consider.

Just because the algorithm is complex doesn't mean it is non-deterministic .

Same input, same process, same variables -----> same output.

True. But but complex beyond knowing in most real life cases. All gets a bit chaos theory if you dig too deep and I don’t understand that, but I know people, and they do some really dumb stuff.

Andykp wrote:
True. But but complex beyond knowing in most real life cases. All gets a bit chaos theory if you dig too deep and I don’t understand that, but I know people, and they do some really dumb stuff.

Oh yea, my point though, is how fair is it to judge a person based on the output of a chemical/neurological process whose variables are almost entirely outside of their control?

Such moral judgments should be limited IMO to something like "You have bad 'wiring' and a bad decision making process, we need to separate you from society to keep everyone safe until that is fixed" rather than the more moralistic and judgmental of "You CHOSE to do this evil thing, and that proves you are a morally bereft person that is deserving of punishment".

We don't shape who we are. Our neurology is dictated by genetics, environment, and upbringing. A good movie that touches on this is 'Star Trek: Nemesis'. The scene where Shinzon comments to Picard "The raw material is the same.... If you had my childhood you would BE me."

That’s a very analytical view of it and it may well be true, philosophers and psychologists have been arguing abiut this for ever. It’s all well above my knowledge level. I’m off the opinion that yes behaviour is very predictable, that’s why con men and advertisers do so well.

The whole point of chaos interactions with the real universe is the manipulation of emotions and behaviour. They can’t act there them selves, the gods, so the use stuff as their puppets. If people think horus and co acted completely of their own volition then they are being very very naive. Nomwuote will show it directly it’s just the theme of the whole series.

I think people need to consider what consent actually is.

Coercion and manipulation do not equate to consent. Ever. There's also (and I do not use this for dramatic effect) the term 'grooming'. Yes, it has (well deserved) negative connotations. But it's an act of manipulating someone to your own ends.

In a similar vein, consider telephone scams. You can spoof a phone number. Find the right victim. Persuade them to withdraw all their money, and hand it over to a 'courier'. Is that consent? Or is it manipulation, coercion and in some cases grooming? Here's a hint. I look into such stuff a career. It's not consent.

Last Wills and Testaments. There are many, many Wills challenged every year, because the surviving family feel the deceased was manipulated into changing their Will. And some are even won in court. Yes, the deceased signed the Will - but was it of their own free will, or as a result of another agency/person manipulating them for their own gain?

If I put you in a position, where the sole options are some form of self harm - is that your own free will, or again, coercion and manipulation?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If I put you in a position, where the sole options are some form of self harm - is that your own free will, or again, coercion and manipulation?

But what if I manipulate you into putting yourself into that situation?

For example, a guy's girlfriend cheats on him. His friend gets him drunk every day for a week, stoking his anger by saying "She's a s*** bro, I'd be mad as hell if I were you" and "you should really teach her a lesson" for the express purpose of getting him mad enough to snap and go murder his ex, but without specifically suggesting that to him or aiding him in any way. Eventually it works, and the guy snaps and ends up killing his ex-girlfriend and gets thrown in prison for murder. In the American justice system at least... the friend didn't do anything illegal as long as he didn't specifically suggest committing the crime (as far as I understand the law). Even though from a realistic standpoint, the guy would not have snapped at all if not for his friend stoking his anger.

This is exactly what happened to Magnus. Chaos knew his flaws, knew he was vulnerable, and systematically manipulated and guided him toward a situation where they knew his flaws would cause him to make bad decisions and put himself in a situation where his only two options were to join chaos or die.

It's the equivalent of taking a recovering drug addict or alcoholic and intentionally putting them in situations when they are around drugs/alcohol constantly so that they relapse because you enjoy the schadenfreude. You didn't make them relapse, they did that on their own...

w1zard wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If I put you in a position, where the sole options are some form of self harm - is that your own free will, or again, coercion and manipulation?

But what if I manipulate you into putting yourself into that situation?

For example, a guy's girlfriend cheats on him. His friend gets him drunk every day for a week, stoking his anger by saying "She's a s*** bro, I'd be mad as hell if I were you" and "you should really teach her a lesson" for the express purpose of getting him mad enough to snap and go murder his ex, but without specifically suggesting that to him or aiding him in any way. Eventually it works, and the guy snaps and ends up killing his ex-girlfriend and gets thrown in prison for murder. In the American justice system at least... the friend didn't do anything illegal as long as he didn't specifically suggest committing the crime (as far as I understand the law). Even though from a realistic standpoint, the guy would not have snapped at all if not for his friend stoking his anger.

This is exactly what happened to Magnus. Chaos knew his flaws, knew he was vulnerable, and systematically manipulated and guided him toward a situation where they knew his flaws would cause him to make bad decisions and put himself in a situation where his only two options were to join chaos or die.

It's the equivalent of taking a recovering drug addict or alcoholic and intentionally putting them in situations when they are around drugs/alcohol constantly so that they relapse because you enjoy the schadenfreude. You didn't make them relapse, they did that on their own...

Perfectly put mate.

That’s still grooming.

Look at scum like the EDL and Britain First.

They don’t specifically, or at least publically, promote violence. They’re awfully careful there. Yet, Jo Cox was still murdered for being ‘a traitor’, by a nutter shrieking ‘Britain First’.

Coercion. Manipulation. Grooming.

It doesn’t make the perpetrator blameless by any means. But the law not holding the groomer to account doesn’t mean they did nothing wrong. They encouraged, they enabled. They provoked.