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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 flandarz wrote:
I'd definitely put Skarboyz in green. That S5 goes a long way. Normal Boyz? Yeah, I think real is fine.


Skarboyz...required to be goffs, require you to spend 1cp per unit....nope. Goffs aren't remotely competitive compared to Evil Sunz. turn 2 you can get an 8' charge with Evil Sunz which just about guarantees a success. On top of that, Goffs are basically useless except for boyz and as mentioned...they got worse point for point.

If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy




Douglasville, GA

The Kulture and Warlors Trait have much to be desired, true, but the Relic is pretty good and 1 CP ain't much when we're dropping 2 to shoot again. 5S means you can throw your Boyz up against T8 with far left fear than before.

And Goff is good for any MSU you plan to throw into CC. Got Dreadz? If you got em decked out in Klawz and Sawz, you're getting an extra attack on average. MSU Stormboyz? Still solid. I think Goff is pretty decent for any CC unit that already has good movement.

I'll agree that Evil Sunz and Bad Moonz are gonna be our go-to Kultures, but don't discount those extra attacks.
   
Made in au
Flashy Flashgitz






I'm going to spend a bit of time breaking what you've said down, alright?
SemperMortis wrote:
They haven't gotten worse: Except they have in durability and Choppiness.

You can now deepstrike boyz, making them invulnerable. And you can make them attack twice, or have exploding 6's in melee. You can also resurrect and teleport up to 200 points of boyz for 3CP.
SemperMortis wrote:
Shootiness point for point they are as good as they were in the index because of Dakkax3, but every unit gets this, same thing with Klan kulture. If you exclude Kultures boyz are worse across the board except in shooting where they are exactly as good as before.

Boyz can now DDD at 5+ and shoot twice while rerolling 1s. They are now our best screen killing unit, only dakkajet compares in output per point. If I exclude kultures and stratagems, sure boyz are not as good at shooting...... but we have kultures and stratagems? And they are amazing.

SemperMortis wrote:
Add in kulture and they are WORSE in choppiness for every faction except Goffs where they break even, and are less durable except in factions where they get FNP or 6+ invulns.

Evil Sunz boys will have more across the field attacking faster thanks to Teleporta. This will certainly increase their choppiness because more will survive the footslog. But in general, I will concede this point (even though we have attack twice), they are certainly worse in melee than they used to be (by a margin of 15% I suppose), but they are still the best 7ppm melee troop unit in the game.

SemperMortis wrote:
Don't include Strats because than you have to factor in a whole other set of factors which honestly don't benefit boyz either (Looking at you 2CP strat for 5+ armor).

I think this is where you underestimate boyz. There are stratagems that exclusively impact Boyz, like green tide, and others that make boyz exceptional, like Teleporta and Get Stuck In. You are clearly under-valuing stratagems. Focusing on bad stratagems like 'Ard Boyz is a clever misdirection, but it does not help your argument IMO since every outstanding stratagem we have target Boyz. Stratagems are the reason why boyz are better, and because you deny this fact you think Boyz are worse (more expensive for no additional benefits in the dataslate), I actually see your point of view, but it is flawed.

SemperMortis wrote:
And even if you do include strats, most of them are better on other units, the shoot twice strat...why the hell would you waste that on boyz when you could use that on tankbustas, lootas or hell even a Morkanaut.

This is a good point, outside of green tide of course. I would argue that just because I can use a stratagem on something else, that does not make the boy worse, it just makes the stratagem very good. I think in particular why Boyz are better than a morkanaut or some tankbustas is because boyz can be the target of ALL of our good stratagems and spells, and when you synergise you are getting something out of boyz that you can not get out of a Morkanaut. For example. Mob up, Warpath, Da Jump, Get Stuck In. Or Mob up, Da Jump, More Dakka, Showin Off. That combination on boyz is just so much better when you use them all on the same unit. I can't really generate the same advantage if I use that stuff on a Morkanaut. Sure, Lootas accept some of these combinations better, I agree, but that just makes Lootas really really good, and does not detract from how good Boyz are.

SemperMortis wrote:
Double attacks? same thing, why waste it on boyz when they are already killing their designated targets and the tough things like knights you would be better of using that strat on a warboss on warbike with Relic klaw to make sure he kills it.

Once again, it's the combination and verstaility that makes boyz better here. For example, deathskull boyz: Mob Up, Warpath, Da Jump, Wreckers, Get stuck in. This is roughly 350 attacks hitting on 3 wounding on 5. And your nob gets to reroll his weapon. With only 300 points of boyz, I think that knight might even die (ideal situation I know, but my point is clear). But MORE importantly, Double attacks is 6"+ movement, a good general will use this to consolidate into units and take hostages, and it is very hard to deploy well enough to stop this stratagem from being very effective. One 30 man squad that landed a charge after Teleporta will completely surround an army with Get Stuck In, in a way that you simply can not to without attacking twice. You can do all sorts of tricks with this, it is not a double damage stratagem all the time, sometimes it protects your boyz with hostages or turns off their tanks.

SemperMortis wrote:
Mob up....Better on lootas or tankbustas. Obsec.....they already had that in the index didn't they? FAQ or something? and again, Deffskullz grants that to every unit regardless. On top of that, I think in the last two years I had maybe 1 game go down to obsec vs non-obsec.

I addressed the Mob up point already, it doesn't make boyz worse than they were in the index, they are obviously better. Obsec becomes better when I can string a 40 man blob across the field and guarantee a hostage with Get Stuck In. It becomes a lot better in fact, game winning better. And yes Deffskullz do grant that to nobz or whatever else, but the reason boyz are STILL better is that you can do this without having to be lucky blue boyz, you can do it as Goffs or Evil Suns, or even Bad moons and still have the kulture your army needs to win.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
That 12% goes a long way. Taking one full unit of Boyz is still good, either as a distraction unit or to Tellyport/Da Jump in, but the days of 200+ boyz are no more.
I agree with this, I think 90 boyz is going to be pretty standard moving forward. However, it's certainly possible 200+ boyz is still good, but no ones going to play it because we have options now and its exhausting to play that many foot sloggers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/24 00:40:17


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

I know that burna boyz are considered bottom tier, but if one absolutely wants to use them, I could see deathskulls working well with them.
They are the second cheapest of the elite options, barring characters, so you can have more of them compared to other choices. As they are infantry they can benefit from "zog off dis is ours"
Only Kommandos are cheaper, and they have less offensive capability (unless you pay for it).

Whilst the burnas don't have much to gain from the rerolls, the KMB has a lot to gain from it. Unlike lootas, KMB are actually useful here as the spanna isn't as overpriced and you will be in range to use it.

So you can run MSU deathskulls burnas to throw out KMB bolts, or just go nuts and take a blob of them to try to steal an objective and really annoy your opponent.

Now, does that mean they still aren't bottom tier? Probably not. They still can't ignore cover for some stupid reason, and their burny dance ability doesn't seem to work that well. But they do have a use.

Is it me or is the KBB undercosted? I mean, for its load out, abilities and statline, it shouldn't be 100 points.

This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2018/11/24 00:57:01


What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in au
Flashy Flashgitz






SemperMortis wrote:
Exactly, I wouldn't put them in the same category as weirdboyz or warboss on warbike. They are still good (teal) but they aren't a YOU MUST TAKE unit anymore. My competitive list is down to 60 boyz and I am seriously debating cutting them and saving 360pts and taking another 20 grotz instead. Than using those 360pts for something even better.
Renegades Open winner brought 90 boyz. 600 points of a 2000 list in one unit. Probably close to our best unit.
   
Made in ca
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I know that burna boyz are considered bottom tier, but if one absolutely wants to use them, I could see deathskulls working well with them.
They are the second cheapest of the elite options, barring characters, so you can have more of them compared to other choices. As they are infantry they can benefit from "zog off dis is ours"
Only Kommandos are cheaper, and they have less offensive capability (unless you pay for it).

Whilst the burnas don't have much to gain from the rerolls, the KMB has a lot to gain from it. Unlike lootas, KMB are actually useful here as the spanna isn't as overpriced and you will be in range to use it.

So you can run MSU deathskulls burnas to throw out KMB bolts, or just go nuts and take a blob of them to try to steal an objective and really annoy your opponent.

Now, does that mean they still aren't bottom tier? Probably not. They still can't ignore cover for some stupid reason, and the KBB is probably better overall. But they do have a use.
Speaking of KBB, is it me or is it undercosted? I mean, for its load out, abilities and statline, it shouldn't be 100 points.


Honestly, while that is a great alternative way to run burna boyz, I thought they would be best as Blood Axes. Assuming you want to run them in a trukk for drive by burnings, since both the Trukk and Burna Boyz have the Blood Axes Kultur, it means an enemy love tapping the vehicle with chaff or normal units can't negate you from just falling back and shooting again with the burnas. Even for when the burnas get stuck in themselves, having the option to fall back and burninate a unit or charging them again to attack first isn't something to be dismissed.

My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard and they're like, hurr darry darr.


My suggestion to you is to get married, if you have a good wife you'll be happy, if you have a bad wife you'll become a philosopher. 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Eh, Idk about that. That sounds great, but that's assuming your opponent doesn't disengage first.
If they don't disengage, than you would probably have a good change of proccing their burny dance, but why wouldn't your opponent disengage?
Drive by burnings do sound fun though. Your opponent might prefer just shooting the trukk, however.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/24 01:05:11


What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in ca
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel





 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Eh, Idk about that. That sounds great, but that's assuming your opponent doesn't disengage first.
If they don't disengage, than you would probably have a good change of proccing their burny dance, but why wouldn't your opponent disengage?
Drive by burnings do sound fun though. Your opponent might prefer just shooting the trukk, however.


Certainly not optimal, but burna boyz aren't exactly one to begin with. Unfortunately, we have much more cost-effective and damaging options available via the kustom boosta blasta and the supa-skorcha big trakk if we want flamer drive-bys, hell, a Biker Boss/Mek with the Bad Moon relic is probably a better choice.

I feel like burna boyz should have either D6 shots per burna or cost 9 points to be considered competitive. Throw in a stratagem where they get +1 to wound against vehicles in CC, and they might be worth taking.

My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard and they're like, hurr darry darr.


My suggestion to you is to get married, if you have a good wife you'll be happy, if you have a bad wife you'll become a philosopher. 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

 Grimskul wrote:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Eh, Idk about that. That sounds great, but that's assuming your opponent doesn't disengage first.
If they don't disengage, than you would probably have a good change of proccing their burny dance, but why wouldn't your opponent disengage?
Drive by burnings do sound fun though. Your opponent might prefer just shooting the trukk, however.


Certainly not optimal, but burna boyz aren't exactly one to begin with. Unfortunately, we have much more cost-effective and damaging options available via the kustom boosta blasta and the supa-skorcha big trakk if we want flamer drive-bys, hell, a Biker Boss/Mek with the Bad Moon relic is probably a better choice.

I feel like burna boyz should have either D6 shots per burna or cost 9 points to be considered competitive. Throw in a stratagem where they get +1 to wound against vehicles in CC, and they might be worth taking.


There's actually a good reason why burna boyz are D3 instead of D6.
You can take 15 burnaboyz in a squad. The random dice roll is applied to the squad.
If you roll a 6 for 15 boyz, that means you would get 90 auto hits. Which is just...insane.
45 autohits from a full squad a lot more palatable.

9 points is probably a good price for them, although I suspect that the KBB is underpriced. It makes no sense that it can deal mortal wounds and has a long ranged D2 weapon for a mere 100 points, and yet the squigbuggy has to pay more for an inferior version of both of those.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/24 01:18:15


What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 hollow one wrote:
I'm going to spend a bit of time breaking what you've said down, alright?
SemperMortis wrote:
They haven't gotten worse: Except they have in durability and Choppiness.

You can now deepstrike boyz, making them invulnerable. And you can make them attack twice, or have exploding 6's in melee. You can also resurrect and teleport up to 200 points of boyz for 3CP.


Teleporta 2 CP, attack twice 3CP, Exploding 6s require goff klan and honestly they are one of the worst klans in my opinion. Green tide 3 CP as well. 8 CP to do what you have said in this, as well as choosing a subpar klan (my opinion) so most armies bring 13-15 CP right? you just blew through over half to do this.
SemperMortis wrote:
Shootiness point for point they are as good as they were in the index because of Dakkax3, but every unit gets this, same thing with Klan kulture. If you exclude Kultures boyz are worse across the board except in shooting where they are exactly as good as before.

Boyz can now DDD at 5+ and shoot twice while rerolling 1s. They are now our best screen killing unit, only dakkajet compares in output per point. If I exclude kultures and stratagems, sure boyz are not as good at shooting...... but we have kultures and stratagems? And they are amazing.
Dakkax3 on 5s 2CP, shoot twice 3 CP, rerolling 1s is Badmoons requirement, so decent, but again why spend any of this on Boyz when its way better on lootas and tankbustas. They are not our best screen killing unit, Dakkajets are better because they are even more durable and kill more cheap screens without having to use CP. so on your 1st part, dakka on 5s and double shot you are spending 5 CP on a shoota squad I think, so 30 shoota boyz = 60 shots, 20 rerolls for another 8ish hits, rerolling 1s for another 3 hits, so grand total you get 31 hits, 15 wounds vs T4 and 5 dead Marines x2 for 10 dead tacticals for the low cost of 210pts, and at least 5 CP (probably more for Teleporting or A Weirdboy jumping them), so you used 1/3rd of your CP to kill a screen....

SemperMortis wrote:
Add in kulture and they are WORSE in choppiness for every faction except Goffs where they break even, and are less durable except in factions where they get FNP or 6+ invulns.

Evil Sunz boys will have more across the field attacking faster thanks to Teleporta. This will certainly increase their choppiness because more will survive the footslog. But in general, I will concede this point (even though we have attack twice), they are certainly worse in melee than they used to be (by a margin of 15% I suppose), but they are still the best 7ppm melee troop unit in the game. I disagree, I will give this to Firewarriors or hell even Khornate dudes.

SemperMortis wrote:
Don't include Strats because than you have to factor in a whole other set of factors which honestly don't benefit boyz either (Looking at you 2CP strat for 5+ armor).

I think this is where you underestimate boyz. There are stratagems that exclusively impact Boyz, like green tide, and others that make boyz exceptional, like Teleporta and Get Stuck In. You are clearly under-valuing stratagems. Focusing on bad stratagems like 'Ard Boyz is a clever misdirection, but it does not help your argument IMO since every outstanding stratagem we have target Boyz. Stratagems are the reason why boyz are better, and because you deny this fact you think Boyz are worse (more expensive for no additional benefits in the dataslate), I actually see your point of view, but it is flawed. Why waste strats on boyz though when they work better on other units, you yourself have used shoot twice, dakka on 5s, Teleporta and other strats that work way better with other units. Teleporta is ok for boyz but why waste 2cp on boyz getting a turn 2 deep strike when you can just jump them? The only truly boy specific strat worth a damn is green tide, and why is it good? because it resurrects a mostly dead boyz unit so you can get more value from your points, you are bringing back 150-200pts worth of a dead unit. So yeah, that is great and i'll probably be abusing the hell out of that, but otherwise every other strat is better on something else or not worth using (SKarboyz/Ard boyz)

SemperMortis wrote:
And even if you do include strats, most of them are better on other units, the shoot twice strat...why the hell would you waste that on boyz when you could use that on tankbustas, lootas or hell even a Morkanaut.

This is a good point, outside of green tide of course. I would argue that just because I can use a stratagem on something else, that does not make the boy worse, it just makes the stratagem very good. I think in particular why Boyz are better than a morkanaut or some tankbustas is because boyz can be the target of ALL of our good stratagems and spells, and when you synergise you are getting something out of boyz that you can not get out of a Morkanaut. For example. Mob up, Warpath, Da Jump, Get Stuck In. Or Mob up, Da Jump, More Dakka, Showin Off. That combination on boyz is just so much better when you use them all on the same unit. I can't really generate the same advantage if I use that stuff on a Morkanaut. Sure, Lootas accept some of these combinations better, I agree, but that just makes Lootas really really good, and does not detract from how good Boyz are. Fist or Gork on a warboss with relic klaw, fight twice strat, boom better than boyz But this is a repeat of above so i'll call it here.

SemperMortis wrote:
Double attacks? same thing, why waste it on boyz when they are already killing their designated targets and the tough things like knights you would be better of using that strat on a warboss on warbike with Relic klaw to make sure he kills it.

Once again, it's the combination and verstaility that makes boyz better here. For example, deathskull boyz: Mob Up, Warpath, Da Jump, Wreckers, Get stuck in. This is roughly 350 attacks hitting on 3 wounding on 5. And your nob gets to reroll his weapon. With only 300 points of boyz, I think that knight might even die (ideal situation I know, but my point is clear). But MORE importantly, Double attacks is 6"+ movement, a good general will use this to consolidate into units and take hostages, and it is very hard to deploy well enough to stop this stratagem from being very effective. One 30 man squad that landed a charge after Teleporta will completely surround an army with Get Stuck In, in a way that you simply can not to without attacking twice. You can do all sorts of tricks with this, it is not a double damage stratagem all the time, sometimes it protects your boyz with hostages or turns off their tanks. Ohh i agree with you here. But again, you are using 1CP for mob up, a weirdboy for da jump, a second weirdboy for warpath, 2CP on wreckers and 3 CP on fight twice strat. So you have used 6 CP, and 2 of our best HQs to buff 1 unit of boyz to kill a knight, And it will kill a knight 40 boyz x 5 attacks each (warpath, choppa, over 20) is 200 attacks, 130ish hits and 40ish wounds x 2 = 80 wounds vs 3+ save = 26 wounds, but you have basically used about half your CP to do this trick and kill a 300ish point unit. That is not efficient, and on top of that you now have a 280point unit exposed that will get slaughtered on the enemies turn.

SemperMortis wrote:
Mob up....Better on lootas or tankbustas. Obsec.....they already had that in the index didn't they? FAQ or something? and again, Deffskullz grants that to every unit regardless. On top of that, I think in the last two years I had maybe 1 game go down to obsec vs non-obsec.

I addressed the Mob up point already, it doesn't make boyz worse than they were in the index, they are obviously better. Obsec becomes better when I can string a 40 man blob across the field and guarantee a hostage with Get Stuck In. It becomes a lot better in fact, game winning better. And yes Deffskullz do grant that to nobz or whatever else, but the reason boyz are STILL better is that you can do this without having to be lucky blue boyz, you can do it as Goffs or Evil Suns, or even Bad moons and still have the kulture your army needs to win. again, I don't really consider obsec to be a huge bonus and on top of that...we were going to get that regardless with the codex. So its not really a buff for boyz, it is what we were supposed to have from the start...which is why EVERY OTHER ARMY got this for free.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
That 12% goes a long way. Taking one full unit of Boyz is still good, either as a distraction unit or to Tellyport/Da Jump in, but the days of 200+ boyz are no more.
I agree with this, I think 90 boyz is going to be pretty standard moving forward. However, it's certainly possible 200+ boyz is still good, but no ones going to play it because we have options now and its exhausting to play that many foot sloggers.

Again I disagree, I don't see people taking more than 60-90 a game at the very most, and as I mentioned, I am really thinking about using just grotz. 180pts to fill out a brigade troop requirements. leaving me with 1820pts to take tankbustas, kommandos, warbiker bosses and all sorts of better units. If I filled out a brigade with boyz the minimum would be 420 and the optimal load out would be 1260pts. leaving me with 1580 and 740 respectively.

Boyz just aren't as good in my opinion and they really didn't need the 1pt increase unless every other faction is going to see a similar point increase, and that includes space Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


There's actually a good reason why burna boyz are D3 instead of D6.
You can take 15 burnaboyz in a squad. The random dice roll is applied to the squad.
If you roll a 6 for 15 boyz, that means you would get 90 auto hits. Which is just...insane.
45 autohits from a full squad a lot more palatable.

9 points is probably a good price for them, although I suspect that the KBB is underpriced. It makes no since that it can deal mortal wounds and has a long ranged D2 weapon for a mere 100 points, and yet the squigbuggy has to pay more for an inferior version of both of those.


Burna's are hot garbage right now just like in the index. Even increasing them to D6 wouldn't fix them. What you really need is a price cut AND a 4+ save. Make them capable of foot slogging and cheap enough to be throw away elite infantry and they suddenly start fighting for the role they currently sit in which is against nobz. And that means nobz are a bit over priced as well. 12pt nobz would be great for their stats.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/24 01:15:37


If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy




Douglasville, GA

I think which Kulture is best/worst is gonna depend on the list you throw together. In a Detachment with plenty of high-mobility CC options, Goff goes from one of the worst to one of the best. And I still think the Lucky Stikk is a superb Relic choice for a CC centric army.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Yeah, that's what I noticed too. What kultur you want depends on army composition, and you do have the tools to do it. Which is great, I love that design.

So far, I'm happy with what we're given overall, there are just a few things that really bother me.

What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in au
Flashy Flashgitz






Alright semper, we disagree again. I guess we'll let the results see who is correct. Once people get sick of losing because they are bringing too many toyz I bet green tide + backfield will re surge (if not out right be the best list again next month).

I think the fact that you are saying what I am doing costs a lot of CP (it does, you're right) means it's not good. But I disagree. Some of the combinations I describe basically add 300 points to your army for that turn, most people would pay 5cp for that. And let's not forget the fact that boyz are troops, providing CP for your army anyway.

If boyz were 6ppm they would be the best troop in the game, right? They were already pushing it as INDEX troops. How do they become so much worse because they gained 1 point each. How? Even disregarding kultures and stratagems, boyz were THE unit that made orks viable. Are you honestly telling me that they are even close to mid tier just because they gained 12% cost? Unstoppable Green Tide ALONE makes up for that.
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

I think boyz are good. They are still the meat of the army. Its just that you have so many other tools at your disposal, you don't have to rely overly on them. I consider that to be healthy design.
There are other things to complain about in the codex, really.

What I have
~4100
~1660
: LM

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy




Douglasville, GA

You hafta remember that pre-Codex, Orkz weren't a competitive army. Boy Blob lists just so happened to be the only viable option. We have SO many more viable builds now, though. While I don't think Boyz will ever phase out on the competitive scene, I do agree that our new options allow us to be competitive with more than just tons of models on the field.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 hollow one wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Exactly, I wouldn't put them in the same category as weirdboyz or warboss on warbike. They are still good (teal) but they aren't a YOU MUST TAKE unit anymore. My competitive list is down to 60 boyz and I am seriously debating cutting them and saving 360pts and taking another 20 grotz instead. Than using those 360pts for something even better.
Renegades Open winner brought 90 boyz. 600 points of a 2000 list in one unit. Probably close to our best unit.


I’m with you on this boyz are still one of our best units.
Thier role has changed.
You don’t use boyz to be the core of your list anymore. You don’t waste tons of command points on them. (Except for a strategic greentide strat use)
They are however our best screen clearing unit plus our best unit to eat overwatch so you biker boss can wreck face..I personally will likely still use 60-70 boyz.

Kommandos are are great unit (If index allowed). You don’t spam them. You throw 1-2 units in your list to counter specific units such as ruin campers (where they excel on cover saves and wounding) or artillery units where the nob with BC and 2 burna power wpns per unit can do some damage.

Grots are NOT the core of our armies they are there to protect the core of your army from dying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is absolutely no reason to ever take the burna dataslate. If you play in an area that allowed the index just take kommandos and you can use your burna models.
My list right now is 2 evilsun units of kommandos each with
Nob w big choppa
1x kommando w tankbusta bomb
2x kommando w burnas
1x regular kommando

The only thing I lose is extra points spent on burna units and the useless morale effect.

They gain
+2 cover saves in terrain
+1 to wound in ruins
And deepstrike
Plus as evilsuns I actually make my assaults into artillery or ruin campers


This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/11/24 02:38:10


 
   
Made in gb
Screamin' Stormboy





 flandarz wrote:
You hafta remember that pre-Codex, Orkz weren't a competitive army. Boy Blob lists just so happened to be the only viable option. We have SO many more viable builds now, though. While I don't think Boyz will ever phase out on the competitive scene, I do agree that our new options allow us to be competitive with more than just tons of models on the field.


They were competitive pre codex because you could compete with them. Granted, it was a heavy skew list, but nonetheless green tide was up there as a well performing list.. just extremely boring and tedious to play with. The fact that we've gained options has nothing to do with being competitive or not, instead it just means we don't die of boredom, and have more freedom with our choices. You could theoretically gain options but lose out on competitiveness if all your options are overpriced for example.
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy




Douglasville, GA

For me, competitive means that they stood a fair chance of winning in the tournament scene. And while I'll admit I haven't kept up with every tournament, I can't remember too many instances of the Boyz bringing home the gold. Boy Blob is just too easy to counter for many competitive lists out there.
   
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Flashy Flashgitz






 flandarz wrote:
For me, competitive means that they stood a fair chance of winning in the tournament scene. And while I'll admit I haven't kept up with every tournament, I can't remember too many instances of the Boyz bringing home the gold. Boy Blob is just too easy to counter for many competitive lists out there.
The way your define competitive is basically limited to Eldar soup, Chaos daemon soup, and Imperial soup. There are heaps of fringe armies that top 8 big tournaments, and Orks were taking the gold 6 months ago on the back of Boyz alone. Your admission is telling, Orks were never dominating the tournament scene, but they have always been in the conversation with a competitive green tide.
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy




Douglasville, GA

That's fair. With Orkz being able to soup a bit now, hopefully we can see they Boyz join the list you mentioned.
   
Made in de
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





Does anyone have a link to that list hollow one was referring to? Rismonte asked to add all TOP3 placing ork lists to the OP and I think that's a great idea.

Drager wrote:
I'd heard there would be a clatter, then perhaps a hiss, but that's not what it's like. We'd all been told that these things lurked in vents and crevices, that they could sneak up on a man no matter how alert, but that just wasn't what happened. We saw them coming, well, we heard them first, an ear-splitting boom as they accelerated across the plain. They must have been 2 miles away when we heard the crack, but we barely had time to lift our weapons before they were on us and then... past us. Running faster than I could follow. They didn't attack, didn't even try and it was then, as the whole platoon stared after them that a dread crept through me and I turned to see that which they had been running from.

-Infantryman Collins, 5th Umbra Rifles
 
   
Made in au
Flashy Flashgitz






Sorry mate it's just on BCP.
edit: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1560/766225.page#10236465

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/24 07:26:52


 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 flandarz wrote:
I'd definitely put Skarboyz in green. That S5 goes a long way. Normal Boyz? Yeah, I think real is fine.


S5 good, s4 that actually gets into combat better

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
3225 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in no
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
[...]
9 points is probably a good price for them, although I suspect that the KBB is underpriced. It makes no sense that it can deal mortal wounds and has a long ranged D2 weapon for a mere 100 points, and yet the squigbuggy has to pay more for an inferior version of both of those.

The KBB is not undercosted, it's one of the buggies that is costed roughly correctly. Honestly, it could probably be 10 points cheaper without it being an issue. You can't use the squigbuggy as a measuring stick since that one is just ridiculous. I believe all buggies are in an okay-to-good spot points wise except the squigbuggy, which need a 40 points drop, and the snazzwagon which should probably drop 15 or so. Or preferably the mek spehsul goes to 12 shots at S6 and keeps it current cost.

Regarding boyz, I think they're still green. Their cost went up, both in points but also in CP if you want to squeeze out all they can do. I honestly think the CP cost is the bigger issue potentially than the extra 1ppm but if you manage to use them correctly in a game, they can literally be game-changers. I wouldn't riot if they slid into teal, but they are still crazy strong if you let them do their thing, which is easier now with tellyporta. Also, their durability is a bit of an issue, but now you have threat saturation on account of the rest of your army not being worthless.
   
Made in gb
Flashy Flashgitz





crewe

SemperMortis wrote:
 hollow one wrote:
Love the first post so far Jid. Without being nitty gritty about each unit ranking, I must insist that Boyz are Green.

I don't care if you think they've gotten worse (they haven't). They are going to be a staple in EVERY competitive list, and already showed up as a minimum of 90 in the first two successful lists this month. Gretchin are not better than boyz IMO, they are useful for a specific purpose (CP and grot shields) and otherwise not a good unit. This is deceptive for new/casual players as they will fill their troops with gretchin and wonder why they are losing every game since they have no boyz.

Gretchin serve a valuable purpose, but Boyz are the meat and bones of an army. This makes Boyz categorically better than Gretchin IMO. Everyone is just sick of running boyz, but that does not prevent them from being one of our best units.

Additionally, their versatility is outstanding: double shooting bad moon shootas, double attacking evil sun choppas, the best deep strike in the game (da jump and 8 inch rerollable), mob up to 40, green tide of traitors, obsec, increased durability with some klans, infinite attacks. All for a mere 7 ppm. Most armies would kill for access to boys and their stratagems.

They are green. Both in skin, and tier.



They haven't gotten worse: Except they have in durability and Choppiness. Shootiness point for point they are as good as they were in the index because of Dakkax3, but every unit gets this, same thing with Klan kulture. If you exclude Kultures boyz are worse across the board except in shooting where they are exactly as good as before. Add in kulture and they are WORSE in choppiness for every faction except Goffs where they break even, and are less durable except in factions where they get FNP or 6+ invulns. Don't include Strats because than you have to factor in a whole other set of factors which honestly don't benefit boyz either (Looking at you 2CP strat for 5+ armor). And even if you do include strats, most of them are better on other units, the shoot twice strat...why the hell would you waste that on boyz when you could use that on tankbustas, lootas or hell even a Morkanaut. Double attacks? same thing, why waste it on boyz when they are already killing their designated targets and the tough things like knights you would be better of using that strat on a warboss on warbike with Relic klaw to make sure he kills it. Mob up....Better on lootas or tankbustas. Obsec.....they already had that in the index didn't they? FAQ or something? and again, Deffskullz grants that to every unit regardless. On top of that, I think in the last two years I had maybe 1 game go down to obsec vs non-obsec.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
tag8833 wrote:
Going to a little RTT tomorrow.

My list has 1 evil suns warboss on bike, 2 evil suns warboss on foot. All have PK, and Kustom Shoota (model limitation).

I was thinking Supa Cybork on the bike boss, and Killa Klaw on one foot boss, and Dead Shiney Shoota on the other.

Which one should be my WL, and what trait?


Make warboss on bike take the relic klaw. But make your warlord one of them on foot because your warbiker boss is a suicide unit. Supa Cybork is meh at best, Id save the CP or take something different. I kind of like The redder armor on a Big mek or regular mek in a Bonecrusha that teleports turn 2. Makes it not only good at CC but also a wicked huge distraction carnifex.


The Morkanaut cannot shoot twice and the biker boss cant fight twice unless he dies. Both stratagems only affect Ork Infantry

How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?  
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel







Jidmah I promise you I don't own shares in the Snazzwagon. You're not going to see me in a dark alley trying to peddle Snazzwagons to vulnerable kids.

I simply believe they have a place over the KBB as our chaff clearer. Their extra range, durability and quirky explosion rules feed into this for me. They're more flexible as you don't need to be within 8" or lose most of your chaff clearing ability. Sometimes you are out of position, sometimes you clear local chaff a little too well thanks to high rolls and its nice to think you can still do something half useful with the Snazzwagon.

I can't see any argument that its the same level as the Squig buggy or Stompa where it currently shares its ranking.

Also Stompa deffo needs its own rank lol. Something like 'you're helping your opponent to win'.
   
Made in no
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon




 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Jidmah I promise you I don't own shares in the Snazzwagon. You're not going to see me in a dark alley trying to peddle Snazzwagons to vulnerable kids.

I simply believe they have a place over the KBB as our chaff clearer. Their extra range, durability and quirky explosion rules feed into this for me. They're more flexible as you don't need to be within 8" or lose most of your chaff clearing ability. Sometimes you are out of position, sometimes you clear local chaff a little too well thanks to high rolls and its nice to think you can still do something half useful with the Snazzwagon.

I can't see any argument that its the same level as the Squig buggy or Stompa where it currently shares its ranking.

Also Stompa deffo needs its own rank lol. Something like 'you're helping your opponent to win'.

Nope, that'd be the mek shop. The stompa is just insanely overpriced, it doesn't cost points and make your army objectively worse

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/24 12:13:34


 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Jidmah I promise you I don't own shares in the Snazzwagon. You're not going to see me in a dark alley trying to peddle Snazzwagons to vulnerable kids.

I simply believe they have a place over the KBB as our chaff clearer. Their extra range, durability and quirky explosion rules feed into this for me. They're more flexible as you don't need to be within 8" or lose most of your chaff clearing ability. Sometimes you are out of position, sometimes you clear local chaff a little too well thanks to high rolls and its nice to think you can still do something half useful with the Snazzwagon.

I can't see any argument that its the same level as the Squig buggy or Stompa where it currently shares its ranking.

Also Stompa deffo needs its own rank lol. Something like 'you're helping your opponent to win'.


...as opposed to the Snazzwagon which loses slightly less than half it's chaff clearing ability over 6"?

If you want to clear chaff safely at range, try a Dakkajet. Its armed with effectively 2 mek speshuls that hit on 4s, it's got 4 more wounds, and it's immune to non fly melee.

If the bdsw was just competing with other buggy I'd agree with you. But it isn't.

Want to shoot at range - Dakkajet.
Want to get up close and be a distraction - KBB


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also semper if you're real salty about the boyz nerf play Snake bites and make your hq a kff mek with follow me ladz.

Now you can leave out a foot warboss and painboy, freeing up a minimum of 176 points meaning that many boyz before the 1st nerf affects your list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/24 12:36:16


 
   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy




Douglasville, GA

tneva82 wrote:


S5 good, s4 that actually gets into combat better


Evil Sunz is definitely our go-to Kultur for most lists, but if you're running a list with lots of mobility already, ES isn't going to be as helpful for ya as improving your damage output.
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






the_scotsman wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Jidmah I promise you I don't own shares in the Snazzwagon. You're not going to see me in a dark alley trying to peddle Snazzwagons to vulnerable kids.

I simply believe they have a place over the KBB as our chaff clearer. Their extra range, durability and quirky explosion rules feed into this for me. They're more flexible as you don't need to be within 8" or lose most of your chaff clearing ability. Sometimes you are out of position, sometimes you clear local chaff a little too well thanks to high rolls and its nice to think you can still do something half useful with the Snazzwagon.

I can't see any argument that its the same level as the Squig buggy or Stompa where it currently shares its ranking.

Also Stompa deffo needs its own rank lol. Something like 'you're helping your opponent to win'.


...as opposed to the Snazzwagon which loses slightly less than half it's chaff clearing ability over 6"?

If you want to clear chaff safely at range, try a Dakkajet. Its armed with effectively 2 mek speshuls that hit on 4s, it's got 4 more wounds, and it's immune to non fly melee.

If the bdsw was just competing with other buggy I'd agree with you. But it isn't.

Want to shoot at range - Dakkajet.
Want to get up close and be a distraction - KBB


The dakkajet is also 50% more expensive and has less AP on its weapon. Its virtually impossible to hide so it can always be shot. Its shooting ability degrades as it takes damage so if you don't get first turn you aren't hitting on 4s. It cannot tie anything in up in melee.

Its flat wrong to claim the Snazzwagon loses anywhere near 50% of its chaff clearing ability outside of grenade range. 2d6 grenades average another 7 shots and 2 more hits at str 4. Not exactly terrifying stuff.
   
 
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