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Sinewy Scourge




Did anyone else notice the Hungering Blade replaces a Power Sword, Starglaive or Huskblade. Autarchs and Archons already have access to powerswords, but Succubi don't. It seems really odd to pick those three weapons instead of Power Sword and Archite Glaive. There is no relic weapon a succubus can take, but the other two combat HQs have 2 different ways to take the same one each...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 12:29:10


 
   
Made in us
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Drager wrote:
Did anyone else notice the Hungering Blade replaces a Power Sword, Starglaive or Huskblade. Autarchs and Archons already have access to powerswords, but Succubi don't. It seems really odd to pick those three weapons instead of Power Sword and Archite Glaive. There is no relic weapon a succubus can take, but the other two combat HQs have 2 different ways to take the same one each...


I mean, GW just seems to be hard-committed to making sure the dedicated DE close combat HQ is the worst as close combat, no matter what, so I'm not surprised.

Don't forget, the Succubus has 1 fewer attack than most dedicated CC HQs, and has a weapon with the powerfist -1 to hit with only 1 damage...
   
Made in us
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the_scotsman wrote:
Drager wrote:
Did anyone else notice the Hungering Blade replaces a Power Sword, Starglaive or Huskblade. Autarchs and Archons already have access to powerswords, but Succubi don't. It seems really odd to pick those three weapons instead of Power Sword and Archite Glaive. There is no relic weapon a succubus can take, but the other two combat HQs have 2 different ways to take the same one each...


I mean, GW just seems to be hard-committed to making sure the dedicated DE close combat HQ is the worst as close combat, no matter what, so I'm not surprised.

Don't forget, the Succubus has 1 fewer attack than most dedicated CC HQs, and has a weapon with the powerfist -1 to hit with only 1 damage...
Yep, that's why I was hoping she could take the relic. No dice. Also only +2 Str, not x2 like a fist...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 12:36:00


 
   
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

The marine hits on 4 if he moves, Reaper still hitting on 3.
Add a -1 to hit and the marine is jow on 5+, while the reaper is still 3+.

Martel isn't saying they should be more he's rejecting the claims that they need "massive points reductions" as being demanded by some eldar trolls.


This is kind of a silly scenario further stacked to make it look bad. Why would I ever realistically move my dev with 48" range?

I do agree there shouldn't be any reductions. Reapers and spears were NOT priced like they were Ynnari, which is why they were so good when they were.


Reason to move your heavy weapon squads: Hide turn 1 so you get to shoot before you get shot. Reapers can do that (and still hide again afterwards), devs cannot. Devs are not more survivable than the reapers. +1 Toughness does not beat being able to hide again after shooting. There is a reason JSJ tactics scarred so many veteran players back in the days. Guess who is the only one who has it again.

Also: Shoot against flyers/alaitoc/alpha legion:
Everyone else:
Reaper: Feeling pretty. Might shoot on 3+ later. IDK.

Also: I buff my unit with the Glamour of tzeentch to protect them. Reapers: Lul 3+.

Also: Dev squads (and every other heavy weapon squad in the game): Limited to 4 heavy weapons max. Reaper: Give the weapon to every last guy in the troupe. <-- This is VERY important. If I use 2 units of devs with launchers, I can only buff one. But the dark reapers can be on a single unit and with a single reroll to hit buff: tadaaaa.

Plus the alternate mode of the reaper launcher is so much better than the frag missiles it's not even funny.

ML Devs and reapers are not even close to effectiveness. That's why you never see devastators but you do see reapers in every other Eldar list out there.

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Ice_can wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Kdash wrote:
Ok, so my take on this.

Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.

What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.

The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.

The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.


I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.

But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".

Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.

If GW is finally starting to see that unbounded interactions between codex's is a problem, maybe they will actually deal with the problem of unintended interactions between Guard and a CP snorting Castellen.

As much as people complain about the Castellen as it's the visually noticeable part of that list it's nothing like the same beast without CC immunity, fast scoring and anti horde weapons that it just lacks.
i find it baffling that people look at the castellen when thinking of how to nerd that list. 4 point guardsmen are clearly the problem. They could go all the way up to 7 points and still be strong.
   
Made in bg
Regular Dakkanaut




Ice_can wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Kdash wrote:
Ok, so my take on this.

Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.

What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.

The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.

The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.


I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.

But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".

Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.

If GW is finally starting to see that unbounded interactions between codex's is a problem, maybe they will actually deal with the problem of unintended interactions between Guard and a CP snorting Castellen.

As much as people complain about the Castellen as it's the visually noticeable part of that list it's nothing like the same beast without CC immunity, fast scoring and anti horde weapons that it just lacks.


You are dreaming, Castellen will probably recieve the Ynnari treatment.
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

footfoe wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Kdash wrote:
Ok, so my take on this.

Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.

What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.

The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.

The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.


I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.

But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".

Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.

If GW is finally starting to see that unbounded interactions between codex's is a problem, maybe they will actually deal with the problem of unintended interactions between Guard and a CP snorting Castellen.

As much as people complain about the Castellen as it's the visually noticeable part of that list it's nothing like the same beast without CC immunity, fast scoring and anti horde weapons that it just lacks.
i find it baffling that people look at the castellen when thinking of how to nerd that list. 4 point guardsmen are clearly the problem. They could go all the way up to 7 points and still be strong.


No problem with both honestly. Guards to 5 pts, because honestly they should not cost the same as a freaking termagant. Castellan capped to 4++ save. I'd be pretty happy.

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footfoe wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Kdash wrote:
Ok, so my take on this.

Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.

What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.

The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.

The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.


I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.

But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".

Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.

If GW is finally starting to see that unbounded interactions between codex's is a problem, maybe they will actually deal with the problem of unintended interactions between Guard and a CP snorting Castellen.

As much as people complain about the Castellen as it's the visually noticeable part of that list it's nothing like the same beast without CC immunity, fast scoring and anti horde weapons that it just lacks.
i find it baffling that people look at the castellen when thinking of how to nerd that list. 4 point guardsmen are clearly the problem. They could go all the way up to 7 points and still be strong.


Because you can run the same list with Admech.

Or sisters.

Or any other allied cheap screen.
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

the_scotsman wrote:
footfoe wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Kdash wrote:
Ok, so my take on this.

Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.

What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.

The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.

The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.


I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.

But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".

Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.

If GW is finally starting to see that unbounded interactions between codex's is a problem, maybe they will actually deal with the problem of unintended interactions between Guard and a CP snorting Castellen.

As much as people complain about the Castellen as it's the visually noticeable part of that list it's nothing like the same beast without CC immunity, fast scoring and anti horde weapons that it just lacks.
i find it baffling that people look at the castellen when thinking of how to nerd that list. 4 point guardsmen are clearly the problem. They could go all the way up to 7 points and still be strong.


Because you can run the same list with Admech.

Or sisters.

Or any other allied cheap screen.


Won't be nearly as effective. And that's a good thing.

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topaxygouroun i wrote:

Also: Dev squads (and every other heavy weapon squad in the game): Limited to 4 heavy weapons max. Reaper: Give the weapon to every last guy in the troupe. <-- This is VERY important. If I use 2 units of devs with launchers, I can only buff one. But the dark reapers can be on a single unit and with a single reroll to hit buff: tadaaaa.

I must have missed the FAQ where SM buffs only affected 1 model instead of all models in their HQ's bubbles.

SM can take ablaitive woulds for 13ppm. Reapers can't. For what Marines can pay to increase their durability by +100%, Reapers can increase their firepower by ~50%.

It's a tradeoff. Reapers are certainly better, but in the Ablaitive Wounds vs More Guns, there are ups and downs.


Plus the alternate mode of the reaper launcher is so much better than the frag missiles it's not even funny.

ML Devs and reapers are not even close to effectiveness. That's why you never see devastators but you do see reapers in every other Eldar list out there.

If only SM Devs had a weapon that could do H2 S5 D2 like Reapers. Unfortunatley, they're stuck with Hd3 S8 D2 instead...

Reapers are more akin to PC Devs - 12" more range and always-hits-on-3s for +3S counterbalanced by Gets Hot. Higher firepower concentration vs Ablaitive Wounds, Signum/Cherub, and durability. Better single-unit buffs vs better aura buffs.

Reapers are better off, but not by as much as many say.
   
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Spoiler:
topaxygouroun i wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
footfoe wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Kdash wrote:
Ok, so my take on this.

Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.

What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.

The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.

The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.


I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.

But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".

Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.

If GW is finally starting to see that unbounded interactions between codex's is a problem, maybe they will actually deal with the problem of unintended interactions between Guard and a CP snorting Castellen.

As much as people complain about the Castellen as it's the visually noticeable part of that list it's nothing like the same beast without CC immunity, fast scoring and anti horde weapons that it just lacks.
i find it baffling that people look at the castellen when thinking of how to nerd that list. 4 point guardsmen are clearly the problem. They could go all the way up to 7 points and still be strong.


Because you can run the same list with Admech.

Or sisters.

Or any other allied cheap screen.


Won't be nearly as effective. And that's a good thing.


given that we have seen sisters and admech used in competitive play with the castellan pretty frequently I don't think the effectiveness gap is going to be as big as you want it to be. And even if guardsmen were hiked to what they're probably worth (5pts) costing the castellan combo 60 or 30 (depending on battalion or brigade) is going to be a drop in the bucket in terms of reducing its effectiveness. Until the systemic problem of allied CP feeding is addressed, the only way to make the castellan combo go away is significantly nerfing the element that burns the fuel, because the element that is the fuel is common enough.
   
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Bit off topic, but, as it’s to do with nerfs, I believe the damage to the Castellan is ~100 points. Now, whether that changes much, we will have to wait and see.

Not heard anything in regards to Guard changes - but then i didn't ask. All other Knights are remaining unchanged i believe.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Kdash wrote:
Bit off topic, but, as it’s to do with nerfs, I believe the damage to the Castellan is ~100 points. Now, whether that changes much, we will have to wait and see.

Not heard anything in regards to Guard changes - but then i didn't ask. All other Knights are remaining unchanged i believe.

Damn well expect to see guard just swap that Castellen for a crusader now.
Then people will want all knights Nerfed.

Sad panda that GW hasn't addressed the cause of the problem instead of the symptom.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ice_can wrote:
Kdash wrote:
Bit off topic, but, as it’s to do with nerfs, I believe the damage to the Castellan is ~100 points. Now, whether that changes much, we will have to wait and see.

Not heard anything in regards to Guard changes - but then i didn't ask. All other Knights are remaining unchanged i believe.

Damn well expect to see guard just swap that Castellen for a crusader now.
Then people will want all knights Nerfed.

Sad panda that GW hasn't addressed the cause of the problem instead of the symptom.


I have no idea what the actual FAQ bits are going to be though. Only a couple of "hints" here and there about certain points costs. They could well be addressing that particular problem with new beta rules.

But i agree. Castellans will just become Crusaders. I got destroyed at the weekend by a list using 3 Crusaders, a Guard Battalion and an Admech battalion. Was running my own Gallant, but the rest of Shadowspear marines and Guard...
   
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Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

Drager wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Drager wrote:
Did anyone else notice the Hungering Blade replaces a Power Sword, Starglaive or Huskblade. Autarchs and Archons already have access to powerswords, but Succubi don't. It seems really odd to pick those three weapons instead of Power Sword and Archite Glaive. There is no relic weapon a succubus can take, but the other two combat HQs have 2 different ways to take the same one each...


I mean, GW just seems to be hard-committed to making sure the dedicated DE close combat HQ is the worst as close combat, no matter what, so I'm not surprised.

Don't forget, the Succubus has 1 fewer attack than most dedicated CC HQs, and has a weapon with the powerfist -1 to hit with only 1 damage...
Yep, that's why I was hoping she could take the relic. No dice. Also only +2 Str, not x2 like a fist...


Honestly, I'm equally irritated that the Song of Ynnead can only replace a Shuriken Pistol - not a Splinter Pistol. So it's basically off-limits to DE characters.

Thanks for that, GW. I not also that there's no equivalent piece of wargear that can only be taken by DE characters.

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 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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Bharring wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:

Also: Dev squads (and every other heavy weapon squad in the game): Limited to 4 heavy weapons max. Reaper: Give the weapon to every last guy in the troupe. <-- This is VERY important. If I use 2 units of devs with launchers, I can only buff one. But the dark reapers can be on a single unit and with a single reroll to hit buff: tadaaaa.

I must have missed the FAQ where SM buffs only affected 1 model instead of all models in their HQ's bubbles.

SM can take ablaitive woulds for 13ppm. Reapers can't. For what Marines can pay to increase their durability by +100%, Reapers can increase their firepower by ~50%.

It's a tradeoff. Reapers are certainly better, but in the Ablaitive Wounds vs More Guns, there are ups and downs.


Plus the alternate mode of the reaper launcher is so much better than the frag missiles it's not even funny.

ML Devs and reapers are not even close to effectiveness. That's why you never see devastators but you do see reapers in every other Eldar list out there.

If only SM Devs had a weapon that could do H2 S5 D2 like Reapers. Unfortunatley, they're stuck with Hd3 S8 D2 instead...

Reapers are more akin to PC Devs - 12" more range and always-hits-on-3s for +3S counterbalanced by Gets Hot. Higher firepower concentration vs Ablaitive Wounds, Signum/Cherub, and durability. Better single-unit buffs vs better aura buffs.

Reapers are better off, but not by as much as many say.


Or heck, you could compare them to Long Fangs with plasma cannons. 6PPM more and you get about 30% more damage to vehicles, 50% more damage to 2-wound MEQs, and relatively similar durability if you assume the single die shift you usually get between T3 and T4 is accounted for with the -1 to hit the reapers are likely to get. And if the always hitting on 3s thing is relevant, you can use a 1cp stratagem to give that to the long fangs.

Units that are analogous to reapers at their current point cost do exist in other armies, units that are analogous to double-shooting dark reapers definitely do not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, "proving" Dark Reapers are OP by talking about how much better they are than missile launchers is laughable.

Eldar have missile launchers. They're not reaper launchers, they're missile launchers, the same as everyone else's. And the same as everyone else's, they suck, because missile launchers just suck and GW hasn't figured out how to fix it.

Comparing a decent/good option to a trash option is like proving Leman Russ tanks are underpowered by trotting out the Vanquisher, or saying Guard vehicles are overcosted because when you put heavy stubbers track guards dozer blades searchlights and a heavy flamer on a Basilisk, it costs too much points. When a unit has the advantage of an extensive weapon list it should be assumed they are taking the most optimal options within that weapon list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 13:35:54


 
   
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Don't get me wrong; I really wish the S5 profile were D1 instead of D2 - like most D2 weapons. Just pointing out that other factions have similar weaponry (mostly Plasma, of some form - Plasma Cannon, Disintigrator Cannon, etc).
   
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Well, I got the WD today and looked through the rules.
Not really something to consider. Its much worse than I thought.
The SfD rule is for cc oriented armies but Aeldari are not.
Just pass it.

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Bharring wrote:
Don't get me wrong; I really wish the S5 profile were D1 instead of D2 - like most D2 weapons. Just pointing out that other factions have similar weaponry (mostly Plasma, of some form - Plasma Cannon, Disintigrator Cannon, etc).


I think the issue is that -1Ld if it kills a model is a really niche benefit, whereas D2 (like the SoB artefact bolt pistol) is useful in far more situations.


 wuestenfux wrote:

The SfD rule is for cc oriented armies but Aeldari are not.


What do you mean? Eldar armies have Grotesques and Talos which are great melee units. Mandrakes are pretty good, too. Oh, wait, all of them are banned in Ynnari detachments.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 14:08:13


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I got the WD today and looked through the rules.
Not really something to consider. Its much worse than I thought.
The SfD rule is for cc oriented armies but Aeldari are not.
Just pass it.
Which, to be fair, is probably what Ynnari should be. I'm sure we'll get some decent combos* showing up, but I think this is overall a good move for the game.
Ynnari shouldn't be the defacto option for competitive Aeldari. It's nice the CWE and DE will still be the choices for gunlines. Ynnari are such a small faction in comparison to the other's that they really should just be a casual list option.

*For example, I could see an Ynnari Outrider with Skyweavers added to any Aeldari Faction. They'd still benefit from Doom and the melee buffs make them a bit more aggressive.
They no longer lose Rising Crescendo and Harlie strats should still affect them (if you have a separate Harlie detachment to generate the strats).
Really, Ynnari "armies" are no longer viable, but adding an Ynnari detachment isn't so bad

-

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/29 14:20:25


   
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I see several people remarking how much they suck, and then how they haven't read the Powers, Strats, Traits, or Relics. That is good for a laugh.

   
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 Galef wrote:
Which, to be fair, is probably what Ynnari should be. I'm sure we'll get some decent combos* showing up, but I think this is overall a good move for the game.
Ynnari shouldn't be the defacto option for competitive Aeldari. It's nice the CWE and DE will still be the choices for gunlines. Ynnari are such a small faction in comparison to the other's that they really should just be a casual list option.


I agree. But in that case, why do they need to be absurdly awkward to even use?

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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Reemule wrote:
I see several people remarking how much they suck, and then how they haven't read the Powers, Strats, Traits, or Relics. That is good for a laugh.


The strats and powers are bad though.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
Bharring wrote:
topaxygouroun i wrote:

Also: Dev squads (and every other heavy weapon squad in the game): Limited to 4 heavy weapons max. Reaper: Give the weapon to every last guy in the troupe. <-- This is VERY important. If I use 2 units of devs with launchers, I can only buff one. But the dark reapers can be on a single unit and with a single reroll to hit buff: tadaaaa.

I must have missed the FAQ where SM buffs only affected 1 model instead of all models in their HQ's bubbles.

SM can take ablaitive woulds for 13ppm. Reapers can't. For what Marines can pay to increase their durability by +100%, Reapers can increase their firepower by ~50%.

It's a tradeoff. Reapers are certainly better, but in the Ablaitive Wounds vs More Guns, there are ups and downs.


Plus the alternate mode of the reaper launcher is so much better than the frag missiles it's not even funny.

ML Devs and reapers are not even close to effectiveness. That's why you never see devastators but you do see reapers in every other Eldar list out there.

If only SM Devs had a weapon that could do H2 S5 D2 like Reapers. Unfortunatley, they're stuck with Hd3 S8 D2 instead...

Reapers are more akin to PC Devs - 12" more range and always-hits-on-3s for +3S counterbalanced by Gets Hot. Higher firepower concentration vs Ablaitive Wounds, Signum/Cherub, and durability. Better single-unit buffs vs better aura buffs.

Reapers are better off, but not by as much as many say.


Or heck, you could compare them to Long Fangs with plasma cannons. 6PPM more and you get about 30% more damage to vehicles, 50% more damage to 2-wound MEQs, and relatively similar durability if you assume the single die shift you usually get between T3 and T4 is accounted for with the -1 to hit the reapers are likely to get. And if the always hitting on 3s thing is relevant, you can use a 1cp stratagem to give that to the long fangs.

Units that are analogous to reapers at their current point cost do exist in other armies, units that are analogous to double-shooting dark reapers definitely do not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, "proving" Dark Reapers are OP by talking about how much better they are than missile launchers is laughable.

Eldar have missile launchers. They're not reaper launchers, they're missile launchers, the same as everyone else's. And the same as everyone else's, they suck, because missile launchers just suck and GW hasn't figured out how to fix it.

Comparing a decent/good option to a trash option is like proving Leman Russ tanks are underpowered by trotting out the Vanquisher, or saying Guard vehicles are overcosted because when you put heavy stubbers track guards dozer blades searchlights and a heavy flamer on a Basilisk, it costs too much points. When a unit has the advantage of an extensive weapon list it should be assumed they are taking the most optimal options within that weapon list.

EML has ap-1 on it's frag round. That actually makes it okay. The reason no one takes it is because it costs too much,

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 14:35:39


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 vipoid wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

The SfD rule is for cc oriented armies but Aeldari are not.


What do you mean? Eldar armies have Grotesques and Talos which are great melee units. Mandrakes are pretty good, too. Oh, wait, all of them are banned in Ynnari detachments.

Exactly.
Drukhari has decent melee units but unfortunately Coven units cannot be included.

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 Xenomancers wrote:

[...] That actually makes it okay. The reason no one takes it is because it costs too much,

If it costs too much, doesn't that mean it's not OK?
   
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Reemule wrote:
I see several people remarking how much they suck, and then how they haven't read the Powers, Strats, Traits, or Relics. That is good for a laugh.
Except we have seen the powers strats and relics and there is nothing amazing among those.
Your better of just sticking to Craftworld or DE.
   
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Dallas area, TX

 vipoid wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Which, to be fair, is probably what Ynnari should be. I'm sure we'll get some decent combos* showing up, but I think this is overall a good move for the game.
Ynnari shouldn't be the defacto option for competitive Aeldari. It's nice the CWE and DE will still be the choices for gunlines. Ynnari are such a small faction in comparison to the other's that they really should just be a casual list option.


I agree. But in that case, why do they need to be absurdly awkward to even use?
Ironically, I feel like having to START with CWE, DE or Harlie detachments first and then convert them to Ynnari is intended to make it LESS awkward, not moreso. Classic GW execution, though.

I mean, in theory players aren't supposed to be cherry-picking units to fill detachments. GW is pretty clear that in Matched play, you need to stick with a single faction per detachment and the shared keyword cannot be Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari or....Ynnari. So in that regard, at least it's consistent, if awkwardly done.
In fact, by adding this restriction, the Battle Bros FAQ doesn't even need to include YNNARI as the rules for Ynnari now cover that for them.

-

   
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 Galef wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Which, to be fair, is probably what Ynnari should be. I'm sure we'll get some decent combos* showing up, but I think this is overall a good move for the game.
Ynnari shouldn't be the defacto option for competitive Aeldari. It's nice the CWE and DE will still be the choices for gunlines. Ynnari are such a small faction in comparison to the other's that they really should just be a casual list option.


I agree. But in that case, why do they need to be absurdly awkward to even use?
Ironically, I feel like having to START with CWE, DE or Harlie detachments first and then convert them to Ynnari is intended to make it LESS awkward, not moreso. Classic GW execution, though.

I mean, in theory players aren't supposed to be cherry-picking units to fill detachments. GW is pretty clear that in Matched play, you need to stick with a single faction per detachment and the shared keyword cannot be Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari or....Ynnari. So in that regard, at least it's consistent, if awkwardly done.
In fact, by adding this restriction, the Battle Bros FAQ doesn't even need to include YNNARI as the rules for Ynnari now cover that for them.

-


Honestly, if they dropped the requirement to include one of the Triumvirate I think these detachment building rules would be completely fine. I'd even be tempted to slot in a small Ynnari force to my army.

As they currently are? Hard no. Yvraine might be my second DE HQ and that's it.
   
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 Galef wrote:
Ironically, I feel like having to START with CWE, DE or Harlie detachments first and then convert them to Ynnari is intended to make it LESS awkward, not moreso. Classic GW execution, though.


I doubt it. IMO the only reason they've done this is to sell the Ynnari characters.


 Galef wrote:

I mean, in theory players aren't supposed to be cherry-picking units to fill detachments.


If the only restriction was that Ynnari had to be built as separate detachments, I'd be completely fine with it.

My issue is that every detachment has to have a Ynnari special character in it just to be Ynnari. There is no other way to use Ynnari.

As far as I'm concerned, whoever wrote that rule can go sit on a cactus.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

 vipoid wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Ironically, I feel like having to START with CWE, DE or Harlie detachments first and then convert them to Ynnari is intended to make it LESS awkward, not moreso. Classic GW execution, though.


I doubt it. IMO the only reason they've done this is to sell the Ynnari characters.


 Galef wrote:

I mean, in theory players aren't supposed to be cherry-picking units to fill detachments.


If the only restriction was that Ynnari had to be built as separate detachments, I'd be completely fine with it.

My issue is that every detachment has to have a Ynnari special character in it just to be Ynnari. There is no other way to use Ynnari.

As far as I'm concerned, whoever wrote that rule can go sit on a cactus.
Fair enough.

I can certainly see people's dislike of requiring a limited selection of Special characters in any force. However, I think many would be singing a different tune if 1 or 2 of those characters had amazing rules and were auto-includes because of it.
I can also respect the fluff that Ynnari do not exist on their own and thus far have ALWAYS been present around one of the 3 Characters.

I am actually starting to really like this requirement and see that Ynnari are NOT supposed to be another Faction of Aeldari, but more like a splinter faction that exists around those specific characters.
Although I think a good "compromise" option would have been to have a list of specific HQs that "unlock" The Ynnari keyword.
In addition to the 3 Characters, they could have included Eldrad (who at this point SHOULD be Ynnari since he's been kicked out of Ulthwe), A Shadowseer, Spiritseer, Succubus, and maybe the Phoenix Lords.
Were already have named characters (in the fluff) in these roles that have converted to Ynnari, so maybe having those as alternatives to the specific 3 could have worked

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 15:09:04


   
 
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