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Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Karol wrote:

Pain4Pleasure 774684 10428706 wrote:

You don’t watch frontline gaming podcasts do you? They playtest for GW rulesets and give feedback. In a more recent podcast they specifically stated they hate when people think similar units need similar cost. Some armies will be better and cheaper at things than others. Others make armies with same units different look across the board. They need a price drop now. I don’t care what your math hammer says.

Yeah right, GK players have been saying both things. They compared their stuff to other armies. No response. Then showed how internaly GK codex is boosted. And GW drops the point cost... on the GM NDK, the only unit GK player if they could they would spam. I don't know who the frontline gaming people are, but they are wrong if they think talking anything to GW can change, just because you tell stuff this or that way. They change stuff only in two ways. They change them the way they did dark reapers, where no amount of nerfs could make them a bad unit no one would ever take. Or they kill a unit, army or faction, with no recovery.

Frontline gaming works for GW in rules testing and assisting withappropriate points costings

Replace appropriate with questionable.


5 pts model that is now about 2x as bad as it's equivalent 4 ppm model?
4ppm model that is worse then conscripts?
Terrible balance of nearly all FW models?

Yeah Frontline is doing a great job, so great infact that it get absolutely genious.

Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Compare a reaper to missile launcher dev. Now justify their cost.

They won't do it as they aren't interested in actually having a productive discussion about balanced rules they either just are out to troll or they're so bad they just want undercosted units with special rules and strategums for free.

They aren't truly interested in having their army balanced they just wanted GW to make Yannari even more broken.
I'm sure one poster would thing eldar having a 90% win rate in a tournament would be fair and balanced.

It's a shame though as I'm sure a number of people who picked up Yannari for the fluff and build casual lists and had casual games are going to be feeling the pain most while the trolls and tournament players just move on to another flavour of Eldar soup.

You are right, Ynnari won LVO, Adepticcon and every major tournament in the last few mounts or no they did not.
Go into BCP and you will see that Ynnari are not winning anything, not the some thing can be sad about imp and chaos soup.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Frontline gaming works for GW in rules testing and assisting with appropriate points costings

Yes, and often get it wrong, due to the differences in how ITC plays to vanilla 40K.


Their fear of Fire-and-Fade-Reapers feels exaggerated, if you play on normal GW terrain with normal GW terrain rules in a mission set where, say, Maelstrom randomizes what objectives you need and you cannot simply get hold something/hold more from the no-brainers most conveniently located where you want to be anyhow, nor do I think a 2 CP Fire-&-Fade was warranted.

Inversely, I think a lot of the recent Tau and AdMech point drops might make sense in a world of "bottom-level-blocks-LOS"-houserules, but are actually pretty bad. There's a reason Mani Cheema has been sweeping tournament after tournament in the UK with his Broadside spam.

First its a massive, massive nerf. Its basically saying the Ynnari mechanic was broken, and now its dead.

Not entirely surprising - since GW have always "imagined" Ynnari as close-combat focused Eldar soup, rather than just "use double shooting/shuffling reapers/shining spears (or massed scat-bikes in 7th) lol lol".

But the most peculiar choice has to be "incubi can't get strength from death, but don't worry, use a stratagem and they can!". It seems like a weird tax to use a unit which is kind of crap anyway. If they don't get it for fluff reasons (....), why have a stratagem there completely undercutting that fluff reason?

Also poor Scourge. Clearly the future sub faction we deserve.

Finally the Yncarne and Visarch also continue to be 30% overcosted for... reasons.

All in all if this was a placeholder pushed out 18~ months ago as a "woops, Ynnari were an end of edition joke and are obviously broken" placeholder it would make sense. As a "the game is more or less complete, we are moving in 8.5 edition now" it seems low effort.

Its not just the rules. Its the idea that they are smart enough to balance entire armies, not just the units. Undercosted units will be spammed, overcosted underused.

Tyel wrote:
First its a massive, massive nerf. Its basically saying the Ynnari mechanic was broken, and now its dead.

Not only did they remove all double action abilities for the Ynnari keyword, but making your DE/Harlequins Ynnari also forfeit their existing double move/double fight strats.

Ynnari are being punished for their transgressions. Much like Wraithknights.

What I really don't understand is why every Ynnari detachment has to contain one of the special characters just to be Ynnari.

IMO this kills the army far more than the change to Soulburst.

Yvraine's looking pretty hilariously bad now compared to a regular old farseer.

 slave.entity wrote:
Yvraine's looking pretty hilariously bad now compared to a regular old farseer.

GW overcompensation at it's finest.

But what did we expect.

 vipoid wrote:
What I really don't understand is why every Ynnari detachment has to contain one of the special characters just to be Ynnari.

IMO this kills the army far more than the change to Soulburst.

Also from my reading you also can't do mixed detachments. Since the SCs can only be taken in Craftworld, Harleqiun, and drukhari detachments, and the codexs define those as detachments that only include craftworld, harlequin or drukhari units respectfully.

Marin wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Compare a reaper to missile launcher dev. Now justify their cost.

They won't do it as they aren't interested in actually having a productive discussion about balanced rules they either just are out to troll or they're so bad they just want undercosted units with special rules and strategums for free.

They aren't truly interested in having their army balanced they just wanted GW to make Yannari even more broken.
I'm sure one poster would thing eldar having a 90% win rate in a tournament would be fair and balanced.

It's a shame though as I'm sure a number of people who picked up Yannari for the fluff and build casual lists and had casual games are going to be feeling the pain most while the trolls and tournament players just move on to another flavour of Eldar soup.

You are right, Ynnari won LVO, Adepticcon and every major tournament in the last few mounts or no they did not.
Go into BCP and you will see that Ynnari are not winning anything, not the some thing can be sad about imp and chaos soup.

Funny you should call out LVO as thr army with highest percentage of games won per games played was Ynnari not imperial soup, not choas soup.
Yes Soup also needs nerfed but tournament lists abusing double activations are responsible for the way GW have responded.
So it's once again the fluff players taking it for the sins of the power gamers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
Yvraine's looking pretty hilariously bad now compared to a regular old farseer.

GW overcompensation at it's finest.

But what did we expect.

To be fair to them they have tried to gently nudge them back into line a number of tines before.

It's not surprising that they took the gloves off and went to town.
If they didn't they were going to get savaged.

 slave.entity wrote:
Yvraine's looking pretty hilariously bad now compared to a regular old farseer.

All three of the special characters seem very overpriced to me still. What's the Visarch bringing to the table that's worth 120 points?

To be fair to them they have tried to gently nudge them back into line a number of tines before.

It's not surprising that they took the gloves off and went to town.
If they didn't they were going to get savaged.

Does not change the fact that double activations in other armies are also bad. They didn't fix that or brought them in line.
Well so far we don't know about that since the BIG FAQ isn't out yet.

It would however be nicer if they actually for once would've not gone into panick mode and started the whole pendulum balancing issue again, but considering what i heard about frontline and their philosophy it is no wonder there seems to be a gap between the balance.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
What I really don't understand is why every Ynnari detachment has to contain one of the special characters just to be Ynnari.

IMO this kills the army far more than the change to Soulburst.

Also from my reading you also can't do mixed detachments. Since the SCs can only be taken in Craftworld, Harleqiun, and drukhari detachments, and the codexs define those as detachments that only include craftworld, harlequin or drukhari units respectfully.

Exactly. So if you want any sort of mix of DE, Eldar and Harlequins (which is the whole point of Ynnari), then you have to use *at least* 2 of the special characters.

 Burnage wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
Yvraine's looking pretty hilariously bad now compared to a regular old farseer.

All three of the special characters seem very overpriced to me still. What's the Visarch bringing to the table that's worth 120 points?

Well, he's basically an Archon with:
- A better weapon
- A better armour save
- A better invulnerable save (I'll take a 4++ over a non-rerollable 2++ that's lost the first time it's failed)
- The ability to heal every time an Eldar model is slain nearby

So he's inevitably going to cost more than an Archon. And since the Archon is horribly overpriced, it stands to reason that the Visarch will also end up being horribly overpriced, since he uses the Archon as a benchmark.

I am glad I never went much down the Ynnari route considering how much Ynnari were hit. On the plus side this means Shining Spears and Dark Reapers probably won't see more nerfs just because of Ynnari. That is a win in my book.

Martel732 wrote:
Compare a reaper to missile launcher dev. Now justify their cost.

Devastator - 13 points
Reaper - 15 points

Missile Launcher - 20 points
Reaper ML - 22 points

I'm not seeing what you're driving at here. If reapers shoot at something with no negative to hit they have no advantage and they're less tough.

If you want to consider the nifty second firing mode that's fine, but it's of a different role than the SM ML.

There isn't any way a reaper should cost considerably more than they do now.


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Not Online!!! wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
Yvraine's looking pretty hilariously bad now compared to a regular old farseer.

GW overcompensation at it's finest.

But what did we expect.

Dakka overreaction at its finest in this thread.

I see people often complain that GW overcompensates when they nerf and find it strange that GW would hit something so hard. Then you see players calling for the same overcompensation and you realize it is just human nature.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Compare a reaper to missile launcher dev. Now justify their cost.

Devastator - 13 points
Reaper - 15 points

Missile Launcher - 20 points
Reaper ML - 22 points

I'm not seeing what you're driving at here. If reapers shoot at something with no negative to hit they have no advantage and they're less tough.

If you want to consider the nifty second firing mode that's fine, but it's of a different role than the SM ML.

There isn't any way a reaper should cost considerably more than they do now.

The marine hits on 4 if he moves, Reaper still hitting on 3.
Add a -1 to hit and the marine is now on 5+, while the reaper is still 3+.

Martel isn't saying they should be more he's rejecting the claims that they need "massive points reductions" as being demanded by some eldar trolls.

'Close combat eldar' is already a niche, rarely-played archetype that is pretty much limited to garagehammer, and yet you're still better off running that style of list without crippling yourself with Ynnari rules. Why would anyone go Ynnari when instead you could go hard with harlequins/solitaires or wyches/covens?

Ynnari placed consistently at top tables throughout the entirety of 8th edition. Now Ynnari is not even worth considering in a competitive game. If there was ever a legit, shining example of what constitutes a 'big nerf', then this is it.

Ice_can wrote:

The marine hits on 4 if he moves, Reaper still hitting on 3.
Add a -1 to hit and the marine is jow on 5+, while the reaper is still 3+.

Martel isn't saying they should be more he's rejecting the claims that they need "massive points reductions" as being demanded by some eldar trolls.

This is kind of a silly scenario further stacked to make it look bad. Why would I ever realistically move my dev with 48" range?

I do agree there shouldn't be any reductions. Reapers and spears were NOT priced like they were Ynnari, which is why they were so good when they were.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slave.entity wrote:
Why would anyone go Ynnari when instead you could go hard with harlequins/solitaires or wyches/covens?

Because you can do both?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

The marine hits on 4 if he moves, Reaper still hitting on 3.
Add a -1 to hit and the marine is jow on 5+, while the reaper is still 3+.

Martel isn't saying they should be more he's rejecting the claims that they need "massive points reductions" as being demanded by some eldar trolls.

This is kind of a silly scenario further stacked to make it look bad. Why would I ever realistically move my dev with 48" range?

I do agree there shouldn't be any reductions. Reapers and spears were NOT priced like they were Ynnari, which is why they were so good when they were.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slave.entity wrote:
Why would anyone go Ynnari when instead you could go hard with harlequins/solitaires or wyches/covens?

Because you can do both?

Here is to hoping the reduction happens in 2 days.. but I know there will be moaning and groaning if it does

Martel isn't saying they should be more he's rejecting the claims that they need "massive points reductions" as being demanded by some eldar trolls.

Martel actually wanted to nerf Dark Reapers into the dustbin of history. I shall quote him:

Martel732 wrote:
No, dark reapers are still undercosted even for a base Eldar list. They got a points increase because they have 55 pts of rules on a sub 40 point model.

I would say Dark Reapers are currently in a sweet spot where they can work. They were undercosted at codex release, but after point increases in CA they are now at a price where you know you're committing when you take them, but not overcommitting.

Personally I think Shining Spears need a revisit as the Ynnari doubling was what was making them crazy good.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

The marine hits on 4 if he moves, Reaper still hitting on 3.
Add a -1 to hit and the marine is jow on 5+, while the reaper is still 3+.

Martel isn't saying they should be more he's rejecting the claims that they need "massive points reductions" as being demanded by some eldar trolls.

This is kind of a silly scenario further stacked to make it look bad. Why would I ever realistically move my dev with 48" range?

I do agree there shouldn't be any reductions. Reapers and spears were NOT priced like they were Ynnari, which is why they were so good when they were.

Why would you move devs,
1 LOS blocking terrain
2 deploying from transports (reducing drop counts)
3 trying to keep them in aura bubbles as GW decieded marines should deathball and only deathball.

I think a number of the worst eldar units could probably use some help but spears and reapers definataly don't need points cuts.

Not Online!!! 774684 10428748 wrote:
Replace appropriate with questionable.


5 pts model that is now about 2x as bad as it's equivalent 4 ppm model?
4ppm model that is worse then conscripts?
Terrible balance of nearly all FW models?

Yeah Frontline is doing a great job, so great infact that it get absolutely genious.

Maybe they did remake all the point costs then, but they are remade for the whole game and for all factions. But because GW realseses armies over 2-3 years, and is prone to changes in the middle of it all, the stuff can get warped. I guess I do understand more of how playtesting works.

I think a number of the worst eldar units could probably use some help but spears and reapers definataly don't need points cuts.

I agree on the Reapers, but Shining Spears are in a different spot. They were only good because of the force multiplier that was Ynnari. In normal Craftworld lists they are not the must take unit some people appear to be implying. Hell, I don't see many mono-Craftworld lists use them much these days and even I've stopped using them as I found them lacking and often a liability. I'd rather take Scatterbikes in mono-detachments as they'll be able to keep a distance, fire, and claim unguarded points whereas the Shining Spears require Farseer, Warlock, and stratagem support to actually get their full potential.

Ice_can wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Compare a reaper to missile launcher dev. Now justify their cost.

Devastator - 13 points
Reaper - 15 points

Missile Launcher - 20 points
Reaper ML - 22 points

I'm not seeing what you're driving at here. If reapers shoot at something with no negative to hit they have no advantage and they're less tough.

If you want to consider the nifty second firing mode that's fine, but it's of a different role than the SM ML.

There isn't any way a reaper should cost considerably more than they do now.

The marine hits on 4 if he moves, Reaper still hitting on 3.
Add a -1 to hit and the marine is now on 5+, while the reaper is still 3+.

Martel isn't saying they should be more he's rejecting the claims that they need "massive points reductions" as being demanded by some eldar trolls.

They're fine as is. They have 55 pts of rules but there IS an upper limit on how valuable a 1W model can be. Reapers are at that limit for sure. Maybe they still are undercosted from a sum of parts view, but 1W is a big problem.

 Eldarsif wrote:

I think a number of the worst eldar units could probably use some help but spears and reapers definataly don't need points cuts.

I agree on the Reapers, but Shining Spears are in a different spot. They were only good because of the force multiplier that was Ynnari. In normal Craftworld lists they are not the must take unit some people appear to be implying. Hell, I don't see many mono-Craftworld lists use them much these days and even I've stopped using them as I found them lacking and often a liability. I'd rather take Scatterbikes in mono-detachments as they'll be able to keep a distance, fire, and claim unguarded points whereas the Shining Spears require Farseer, Warlock, and stratagem support to actually get their full potential.

I’ll drop the reaper argument but yea shining spears need to be back to 29ppm to be even somewhat useful. I fully agree I take 12 scatbikes each time over them

 Eldarsif wrote:

I think a number of the worst eldar units could probably use some help but spears and reapers definataly don't need points cuts.

I agree on the Reapers, but Shining Spears are in a different spot. They were only good because of the force multiplier that was Ynnari. In normal Craftworld lists they are not the must take unit some people appear to be implying. Hell, I don't see many mono-Craftworld lists use them much these days and even I've stopped using them as I found them lacking and often a liability. I'd rather take Scatterbikes in mono-detachments as they'll be able to keep a distance, fire, and claim unguarded points whereas the Shining Spears require Farseer, Warlock, and stratagem support to actually get their full potential.

Depends on your perspective on that one as currently they melt primaris marines like their stealing candy from a baby.
Maybe if they weren't packing D2 weapons they could be cheaper but with D2 they can have 67% return in a turn befire supporting buffs.

But yes if your charging guardsmen for days they probably do suck, but most things having to charge guardsmen give poor returns.

Ice_can wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

I think a number of the worst eldar units could probably use some help but spears and reapers definataly don't need points cuts.

I agree on the Reapers, but Shining Spears are in a different spot. They were only good because of the force multiplier that was Ynnari. In normal Craftworld lists they are not the must take unit some people appear to be implying. Hell, I don't see many mono-Craftworld lists use them much these days and even I've stopped using them as I found them lacking and often a liability. I'd rather take Scatterbikes in mono-detachments as they'll be able to keep a distance, fire, and claim unguarded points whereas the Shining Spears require Farseer, Warlock, and stratagem support to actually get their full potential.

Depends on your perspective on that one as currently they melt primaris marines like their stealing candy from a baby.
Maybe if they weren't packing D2 weapons they could be cheaper but with D2 they can have 67% return in a turn befire supporting buffs.

But yes if your charging guardsmen for days they probably do suck, but most things having to charge guardsmen give poor returns.

You’re also talking about marines, where even primaries are in a bad spot. Can’t blame spears for that. 29 ppm isn’t cheap either, but brings them in line which is what you have all been saying you want with other units so you shouldn’t be against it

The D2 ammo is absurd compared to every other frag option in the game. That has to cost something signficant.

Shining spears are crazy good compared to other bike options in the game. They're more dangerous than Custodes, even if they aren't as durable. Looking at the other heavy hitter melee units like grotesques, bulls, custodes, none of the have AP -4, nor AP -4 shooting attacks, but a lot more wounds. They are also a lot slower. Shining spears are still a bargain at their current price. Compared to other melee options in the game, they should probably go up.

Also, nearly all melee loses to guardsmen by virtue of their cost. Take a number, shining spears.