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Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Orange Knight wrote:
It's a philosophy of the faction.

Why can't Tau build some amazing, automated close combat fighting system?
These things keep the factions distinctive.

The day close combat Tau become as viable as ranged Tau I will be on the front lines campaigning for Daemons with ranged weapons.
I'm not asking to be better at shooting than CC.

I'm asking to be able to participate in shooting in a reasonable way.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle





You can, with a few units. Just like Tau have very limited effectiveness in the assault phase.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Orange Knight wrote:
You can, with a few units. Just like Tau have very limited effectiveness in the assault phase.
2,700 points of Nurgle shooting kills about 220 points of Primaris Marines.

If we drop the Soul Grinders, literally nothing has a range over 12". And even with the Soul Grinders, it's 9+3d6 shots at BS4+ at 36".

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle





How many Marines do Tau kill in close combat?

How many Marines do 2700 points of Necrons kill in the psychic phase? 0 Marines.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/21 17:42:20


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Orange Knight wrote:
How many Marines do Tau kill in close combat?
It takes just shy of 200 points of Tau Fire Warriors to do a wound to a MEQ in close combat.

It takes 54 points of Kroot to do the same.

It takes a little over 200 points of Crisis Suits to do the same.

Notably, Crisis Suits are actually pretty nice for Close Combat-not that they'll do a lot of damage, but they can charge in, tie up a shooty unit (like a Leman Russ or something) and then Fall Back in their turn, while still shooting.

Edit: And Necrons should have more to do in the psychic phase. C'Tan powers could probably be moved to there, operating differently but in that phase, and they NEED more psychic defense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 17:45:04


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle





So Tau are as good in assault as Daemons are in shooting? Seems to be a design philosophy of the faction.

Why don't you ally with Chaos Astartes? Daemon units like Obliterator are powerful and thematic. You can have Daemon only CSM detachments.
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Orange Knight wrote:
So Tau are as good in assault as Daemons are in shooting? Seems to be a design philosophy of the faction.

Why don't you ally with Chaos Astartes? Daemon units like Obliterator are powerful and thematic. You can have Daemon only CSM detachments.
...

No.

108 points of Kroot kills 17 points of Marines. That's more than 15% return.

2,700 points of Nurgle shooting kills 221 points of Marines. That's about 8%.

Not to mention, Kroot can move up to 14" if the Tau player gets Turn One, meaning they can make a charge, if unreliably, T1.
The ONLY UNIT in Nurgle Daemons that can shoot T1 (assuming no infiltrated units) is the Soul Grinder. That's...

9 S7 AP-1 Dd3 shots
4.5 hits
3 wounds
1.5 failed saves
2.5 damage against Primaris

and

3d6 S8 AP-2 D3 shots
5.25 hits
4.38 wounds
2.92 failed saves
~6 damage against Primaris

Which is four dead guys. 68 points. And no one is tied up. Everyone can shoot fine. We're assuming the Marines aren't in cover, or Iron Hands, or Ravenguard...

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle





Kroot aren't Tau? Although they do share detachment.

Similar to how Daemons and Astartes can share one... Don't get too hung up on Xenos. They often have no access to allies. Chaos on the other hand have many different books to draw forces from. Use that advantage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 17:57:38


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Orange Knight wrote:
Kroot aren't Tau? Although they do share detachment.

Similar to how Daemons and Astartes can share one... Don't get too hung up on Xenos. They often have no access to allies. Chaos on the other hand have many different books to draw forces from. Use that advantage.
You know what? That's fair. Kroot aren't Tau, I ain't gonna rag on someone who wants to run without auxiliaries.

I should point out, though, that Crisis Suits still use close combat to their advantage, as does anything else with FLY in the Tau Codex. They might not inflict a lot of damage, but they disrupt plays.

So what if Nurgle got shooting that primarily inflicted debuffs? Stuff that inflicted hit penalties, save penalties, movement penalties, but not much damage.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Orange Knight wrote:
Kroot aren't Tau? Although they do share detachment.

Similar to how Daemons and Astartes can share one... Don't get too hung up on Xenos. They often have no access to allies. Chaos on the other hand have many different books to draw forces from. Use that advantage.


The game is heavily focused and supportive of shooting in its design, the lack of close combat is far less a design issue than the lack of shooting for demons.

And many players do not particularly want to ally in other army’s to fill design issues.
   
Made in gb
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker




 Orange Knight wrote:
Kroot aren't Tau? Although they do share detachment.

Similar to how Daemons and Astartes can share one... Don't get too hung up on Xenos. They often have no access to allies. Chaos on the other hand have many different books to draw forces from. Use that advantage.


Daemons and marines can't share a detachment, they both lose their bonuses if they do.
   
Made in gb
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle





Dudeface wrote:
 Orange Knight wrote:
Kroot aren't Tau? Although they do share detachment.

Similar to how Daemons and Astartes can share one... Don't get too hung up on Xenos. They often have no access to allies. Chaos on the other hand have many different books to draw forces from. Use that advantage.


Daemons and marines can't share a detachment, they both lose their bonuses if they do.


Nurgle Daemon Prince HQ, Plague Marines? There are a few exceptions across the books. I meant you can bring a detachment of units from the CSM book as allies to a Daemon force from their codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 18:17:05


 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





In My Lab

 Orange Knight wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Orange Knight wrote:
Kroot aren't Tau? Although they do share detachment.

Similar to how Daemons and Astartes can share one... Don't get too hung up on Xenos. They often have no access to allies. Chaos on the other hand have many different books to draw forces from. Use that advantage.


Daemons and marines can't share a detachment, they both lose their bonuses if they do.


Nurgle Daemon Prince HQ, Plague Marines? There are a few exceptions across the books. I meant you can bring a detachment of units from the CSM book as allies to a Daemon force from their codex.
You'd lose the Locus, the Death Guard or <LEGION> trait, and not unlock stratagems.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle





You definitely don't lose the DG traits. I'm talking about having two seperate detachments. You can have a Death Guard Daemon Prince.
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

 JNAProductions wrote:
 Orange Knight wrote:
It's a philosophy of the faction.

Why can't Tau build some amazing, automated close combat fighting system?
These things keep the factions distinctive.

The day close combat Tau become as viable as ranged Tau I will be on the front lines campaigning for Daemons with ranged weapons.
I'm not asking to be better at shooting than CC.

I'm asking to be able to participate in shooting in a reasonable way.

Let me get this straight: You are upset that daemons don't have much in the way of shooting, something that is true both in the lore and has always been true in the game?

If so, I don't think the problem is GW or Codex Chaos Daemons.
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Orange Knight wrote:
It's a philosophy of the faction.


That is a tautology of what your initial argument was.

Why is ranged combat against the philosophy of daemons? What is the justification beyond "it is because it is"?

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle





It's their design visually, their lore and the way they have been described in the various stories. I don't recall any large scale firefights with Warp Daemons?
Ranged combat has never been the focus. You might not be happy about that, but that's how it is.

You have chosen to collect the faction. Complaining about what they don't do is as redundant as a Tau player being outraged about the fact that Tau don't have a psychic phase.
   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Vancouver, BC

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
That is a tautology of what your initial argument was.

Why is ranged combat against the philosophy of daemons? What is the justification beyond "it is because it is"?

That's what it takes in a fictional universe. There's no logical reason why they should or shouldn't have shooting, but both in lore and on the tabletop they've tended to rely on mortal allies for that. Anybody collecting daemons should be well aware of what their rules are and thus has no leg to stand on if the want mono-god, daemon only lists with shooting.

There's also the fact that buffing daemon shooting by too much has a chance to make souping them with CSM or Chaos Knights the next meta destroying army.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

While thematically I agree that shooting heavy Daemon armies kinda fly in the face of the historic theme and feel, I think there's absolutely a case to be made that GW design philosophy is massively inconsistent in that they have in the past, and often currently still do, portray the various different flavors of daemons as their own unique factions (that needn't always be paired with CSM's, which in-universe are actually quite rare themselves) at least as much as they are a unified panoply (and likewise at least as much as the niche micro-factions like individual SM chapters that have their own dedicated publications despite mostly being ostensibly "codex adherent") but don't actually support this in rules and functionality. I don't think the route to doing that is through introducing tons of Daemonic shooting, but there should be space for god-specific armies to be functional and competitive without needing to include Daemons of other gods (same way CSM's can do) or mortal allies.

With how little psychology matters in this game, and how large a factor that actually would be with Daemons on a battlefield, they end up being kinda awkward. Daemons should be driving opponents insane, corrupting mechanisms/devices/communications, bending reality, etc, but a lot of this just isn't portrayed or is just boiled down to mortal wound generation or the like. Perhaps those are avenues that could be made to cover the gaps that shooting fills in other armies, or maybe be used as functional ways to describe Daemonic shooting.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




the_scotsman wrote:
I mean, as you just pointed out here...it kind of doesn't.

Adding khorne troops to your daemons to give them "punch" in melee or adding Slaanesh to add speed is objectively less effective than adding more NURGLE keyword buffing units to add punch or speed to your nurgle stuff.

There is also no shooting unit that exists in the Tzeentch arsenal that is more effective as an ally to the 3 melee daemon factions than just plopping down a few chaos knights, because there's no cross-faction synergy. There's more synergy between Chaos Knights and Daemons than Daemons and Daemons, because if I bring Chaos Knights instead of, I don't know, a tzeentch-marked Soul Grinder for fire support then I have two different stratagems to improve their defenses instead of one that forces me to pick between protecting my firebase and protecting my melee troops.

If I have a double gatling chaos knight for fire support I can use Rotate Ion Shields to protect him, and use the daemon stratagem on my...bloodletters or whatever.

"synergy" most often has to be something more than just "you can bring two different factions and they do two different things" to be competitive or good.

Nurgle brings survivability that the other gods don't.
Khorne brings AP that the other gods don't.
Slaanesh brings speed and debuffs that the other gods don't.
Tzeentch brings shooting that the other gods don't.

Adding more Nurgle to a Nurgle army doesn't give you the tools to deal with 2+ armour effectively.

I agree that Chaos Daemons don't have enough synergy to be competitive or good. But the different gods cover different weaknesses of a mono-god.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Yeah, not a single one of the things you listed are synergistic in any way. Synergy means that the whole would be more powerful than the sum of its parts, that is not the case for any of the things you listed.

Not to mention that neither the codex nor the game works that way. In reality, all four gods just bring horde units, monsters and support characters, the only things that matter is their ability to cross the table and deal damage. The nuances aren't important at all.

And seriously, "deal with 2+ armor effectively"? When you can have soul grinders, daemon princes, great unclean ones and multiple sources of mortal wounds?
That only goes to show how little khorne would add to a nurgle army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 10:06:07


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in gb
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker




 Orange Knight wrote:
You definitely don't lose the DG traits. I'm talking about having two seperate detachments. You can have a Death Guard Daemon Prince.


You can have 2 detachments but your example of kroot in a tau detachment being the same as 2 daemons and death guard detachments is objectively wrong.
   
Made in gb
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle





I was pointing out that you can have a full Nurgle daemon army, keeping with the theme, and adding shooting if you bring in allies from CSM.

You can have a CSM detachment, Mark of Nurgle, comprised of a Daemon Prince of Nurgle and 3 squads of 2 Oblits, each with mark of Nurgle.

And thus you can have an entire army of Nurgle Daemons, comprised from 2 different books.
   
Made in gb
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker




 Orange Knight wrote:
I was pointing out that you can have a full Nurgle daemon army, keeping with the theme, and adding shooting if you bring in allies from CSM.

You can have a CSM detachment, Mark of Nurgle, comprised of a Daemon Prince of Nurgle and 3 squads of 2 Oblits, each with mark of Nurgle.

And thus you can have an entire army of Nurgle Daemons, comprised from 2 different books.


Yup, but then we get back into the cyclical should you need 2 books and why should the force be more synergistic with another codex than its own.

Again I think GW needs to go back and reconsider the design paradigm they have in place for daemons, I know the gods don't always cooperate but at present from a design stand point it's just an awful army as a mono-faction (even more so as a mono-god).
   
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But you need two books just to use Salamander or Iron Hands special characters and rules alongside the rest of the army?

You are refusing to use additional books for extra rules? Sounds like that's your own personal restriction at play.
   
Made in gb
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker




 Orange Knight wrote:
But you need two books just to use Salamander or Iron Hands special characters and rules alongside the rest of the army?

You are refusing to use additional books for extra rules? Sounds like that's your own personal restriction at play.


Because you're using a codex space marines army with supplement salamanders. You literally can't run an army out of the salamanders book alone.

A codex daemons army shouldn't need a codex chaos space marines army to function.

   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 Orange Knight wrote:
It's their design visually, their lore and the way they have been described in the various stories. I don't recall any large scale firefights with Warp Daemons?
Ranged combat has never been the focus. You might not be happy about that, but that's how it is.

You have chosen to collect the faction. Complaining about what they don't do is as redundant as a Tau player being outraged about the fact that Tau don't have a psychic phase.


Am I allowed to complain that I chose Tzeentch Daemons as a psychic army, and theyre worse by far in the psychic phase than GK, Tsons, Eldar, and Space marines?

I have the choice of 6 psychic powers for my daemons. A person who plays space marines can choose between I think 54 at this point by picking their subfaction?
   
Made in gb
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle





You're comparing all of the various Astartes factions in totality to one sub faction of Daemons? Is this what they call moving the goal post? How many Psychic powers are there across all of Chaos? 50+?

I'll take your word for it that the Tzeentch Daemons might need a power boost. I hope they get one soon. Power level of the various factions and sub factions isn't what this topic is about, as far as I'm aware
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





 Orange Knight wrote:
You're comparing all of the various Astartes factions in totality to one sub faction of Daemons? Is this what they call moving the goal post? How many Psychic powers are there across all of Chaos? 50+?

I'll take your word for it that the Tzeentch Daemons might need a power boost. I hope they get one soon. Power level of the various factions and sub factions isn't what this topic is about, as far as I'm aware


Nope, I believe across all of chaos you have

Daemons - 18
Csm - 12
Tsons - 6 (18 total but 12 are copies of the csm and tzeentch ones)
DG - 6

In codex: space marines, any given chapter has 18 available, and there are 54 total across all the codex chapters. I wasnt counting the 30 more from the GK, BA, DA, and SW books.

Why is it when folks talk about how daemons aren't allowed to shoot good it's a question of "army identity" but when I complain that my psychic manifestations of the god of magic arent good psychers, it's a question of power level?

My two hundred fifty point imperial knight sized psychic bird has half as many powers to choose from as a basic librarian. And boy howdy what awesome, world-shaking powers they are, wowee! I can...use a power to reroll a die later this turn! Or I can do a smite, but not have to target the closest, damn thats sweet! Oh and theres one real kickass one that just really captures that great chaos flavor where you pick a unit and they get a random buff, but the wild n crazy chaos twist is that all three of the possibilities are actually worse than similarly costed buff spells that arent random.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




It may be negative, but it is hard to see how the Lord of Change is much (if any) better than a Thousand Sons Daemon Prince, who even after the respective price changes, is 55-65 points cheaper.
   
 
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