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Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 catbarf wrote:
Eradicators being cheaper makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
When you design units in a vacuum it sure does. Do you think the person who wrote the Eradicator rules even had the words "Kataphrons" or "Torsion Cannon" flash thought his mind at any stage?

   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





Okay, not happy, but whatever.

My biggest take away from this is that every time an opponent puts a units of these down, I will be thinking of this Kids in the Hall sketch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO0FxifkzFQ

And instead of throwing a hissy fit, I'm just going to gently mock my opponent by taunting him with calls of "Eradicator!" in my best Kids in the Hall voice.
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






PenitentJake wrote:
Okay, not happy, but whatever.

My biggest take away from this is that every time an opponent puts a units of these down, I will be thinking of this Kids in the Hall sketch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO0FxifkzFQ

And instead of throwing a hissy fit, I'm just going to gently mock my opponent by taunting him with calls of "Eradicator!" in my best Kids in the Hall voice.
Oh goddamn it! Thank you for that. I'm going to youtube binge for a while.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in au
Rookie Pilot




Brisbane

 JNAProductions wrote:
 Slayer6 wrote:
Alright my mistake they are 3W. I won't edit my reply to hide the mistake.

That still doesn't change the fact that it's still only a couple of shots which can partially be mitigated by screening...

Hotshot Lasguns with FRFSRF will completely decimate them. So their cost needs to be lower to justify how fragile they are.
Decimation is not that bad. Losing 1 wound doesn't impact that at all.

As for devastating them, well...

If you're the 5" Deep Strike regiment, for immediate Rapid Fire, you would need...

9 failed saves
27/2 wounds
81/2 hits
243/4 shots, or just over 60.

Admittedly, that's only 160-odd points of units, but couple of things.

1) That's in 8th edition points-it'll get more pricey.
2) The unit you're attacking, is still cheaper.
3) You're doing that T2, unless you want to start your squishy butts on the field.
4) You're definitely losing them afterwards. 20 or so T3 4+ Wounds, within Rapid Fire Range, won't last long.


There's 2 Tempestus Deep Strike Rapid Fire regiments: Iotan Gorgonnes which can perform Daring Descent 5" away, and Iotan Dragons with +6" to Rapid Fire weapon ranges.
The Iotan Gorgonnes also benefit from additional hits on rolls of 6+.

A full 10 man squad of Iotan Dragons for 70pts you get a basic 9 shots, if you have a Tempestor Prime nearby, that increases to 18 with FRFSRF, then 36 with RF range.

Nominally I would always keep 2 squads for each Tempestor Prime (who also has a Command Rod).

So onwards to the math! Your numbers were a bit off: You are assuming Conscripts = Scions.
Conscripts hit on 5+, wound on 5+, have to beat a 3+, have to wound 3 times.
Scions hit on a 3+, wound on a 5+, have to beat a 5+, have to wound 3 times.
Additional modifications for the Scions are based upon their Regiments.

36 shots results in an estimated 24 hits
24 hits results in an estimated 8 wounds
8 wounds results in an estimated 5.33 failed saves.
So depending on that last save, 2 might die.
This means 14 HSLG are needed to theoretically kill them.

Now for the other one! Iotan Gorgonnes - I don't need the Tempestor Prime here.

Deep Strike 5" away, then use the Grenadiers! Stratagem.

10D6 Frag Grenades = estimated 35 shots
35 shots, lets assume 24 hits, + additional 6 from their doctrine; so 30 hits.
30 hits results in 10 wounds
10 wounds result in 3.33 wounds so 1 might die.
This means 27 Grenadiers with Frag Grenades are needed to theoretically kill them (not possible since the Stratagem says 10 max).


Lastly, if we used Iotan Gorgonnes with the FRFSRF drop, then we have:

36 shots + HSLP
24 hits + 6 more from the doctrine = 30 hits
30 hits results in 10 wounds
10 wounds results in 6.66 failed saves.
This means 13 HSLG are needed to theoretically kill them

Generally I deploy Iotan Dragons as a big force on T2 - 1 Tempestor Prime with: Command Rod, Master of Command, Tactical Auto-Reliquary of Tyberius, and Inspired Tactics.
This results in 4 orders or 5 on a 2+, so 5x 10 man Dragons squads that can rapid fire straight off the bat for a total force cost of 390 points. Then at the end Unquestioning Obedience is used so that if any morale checks are taken, that force is A-OK until my next turn.

You can throw the numbers even further out by using Lambdan Lions but drop them and a Tempestor out of a Valkyrie, then move into RF range (interestingly enough, it is listed as a disembark, not a DS), or utilize the Precision Drop stratagem. The only issue is if the Valkyrie moves over 20", but the casualties should be minimal.

So lets give the Tempestor Prime the WLT to reroll 1's
36 shots results in 24 hits + 4 additional from rerolls
28 hits results in 9 wounds
9 wounds results in 7.5 failed saves.
Let's assume the Tempestor had a Plasma Pistol, so if he overcharges it, he should be able to pick up the last kill since they won't even get a save, and maybe use a CRR against a failed W roll.

Kappic Eagles can also mess with it.

Since dropping from a Valkyrie counts as disembarking, they get +1 to hit.
36 shots results in 30 hits
30 hits results in 10 wounds
10 wounds results in 6.66 failed saves.

It's for all these reasons why I believe Tempestus is broken when going up against Primaris due to their lack of Invulnerable saves.
Tempestus is dirt cheap
Tempestus is flexible
Tempestus have orders and variable doctrines.

Alright sure, the enemy Eradicators are strong, but they will peel open just as well as any other Primaris marines. Terminators with TH/SS? I got no answer. Just one squad of them can turn any of my strategies into a meat grinder.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/30 04:56:54


I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore. 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





 Blood Hawk wrote:
 Mr.Omega wrote:
Remember when Space Marines were meant to be an army that revolved around strategy and making otherwise individually underwhelming units work in concert?


Haha nevermind here's a unit with nothing but double range meltaguns that fire twice such that it nukes vehicles that dare to exist within 24'' of it with minimal effort or brainpower involved

I remember those editions. I also remember space marines being easy wins at tournaments for any competitive Xenos player.

You have quite an impressively atrocious memory then.

Gladius
Grav Bikes
Cent Star
Alpha Strike
Tiggystar, Geokinesis, Librarius, all the other bs


Have I said enough, or would you like me to go back further than a single edition ago?


Please remind me what competitive Orks and Tyranids were doing in 7th again....
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




 JNAProductions wrote:
 Argive wrote:
 Grimgold wrote:
Color me unimpressed, it's a 3 wound model with t5 no invul and a 24" range. Trust me when I say if that were a good stat combination necrons would know, because we've had that statline this entire edition in destroyers, who are way more killy than these guys. The issue isn't output, it's staying power, Units of destroyers pop like soap bubbles, and these guys will as well.


Except you can put them in a flying rhino with a 4++ or DS them and with new LOS terrain rules they wont be hard to hide after they have disembarked and pick their firing lanes/chokepoints.

Gravis units can't go in an Impulsor.


Round two of Primaris transportation failure, go!

Granted, they don't need it, but the sheer puzzle box of what space marine transports can and can't do gets more impressively screwed up with every single iteration: 6 models, 10 models, 12 models 15 models, jump packs and dreads on this flyer, these unit types in that drop pod, sometimes things count as two models, sometimes jump packs fit, sometimes they don't, none of the new stuff in old stuff, only some of the new stuff in the frickin' open-topped transport (which isn't technically open-topped despite essentially being a floating open pickup truck). Space marine transportation logistics is a frikkin' game of Tetris.

Sometimes the techmarines bring extra replacement tracks for the grav vehicles and have to bring an extra repulsor to the battle just in case an intercessor squad came along instead of tac squad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/30 04:55:08


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




That's what you get for being a bunch of sticklers for the rules. Nobody gets to ride in anybody else's go-cart.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/30 05:06:01


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I don't want to be salty and I'm late the thread but, I just shook my head when I looked at the marine unit. Feels like so much that comes out with them now, just like something similar with a big ol + sign next to it. All for a nice cheap cost, probably.

I'd love to say Marines aren't being spoiled, just as soon as they stop doing it. Hey at least when i play first born Marines no one cares, or complains how op they are lol.

Edit: That kids in the hall sketch is ace. I too, shall call them " Eradicator !! " I mean it's all that can be done when GW hands you joke strong units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/30 05:28:36


 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 JNAProductions wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I understand why everyone is comparing these things to anti-vehicle infantry, but I think there's another unit that they should be compared to: Chaos Space Marines. Csm are 5pl (I had to check as I don't play pl), the same price as these. Can anyone explain why that makes sense?
CSM are likely going to see a revamp of PL, so I doubt they're still gonna be 5 PL at 5-man in 9th, at least once their Dex drops.


That doesn't help. Points are going UP. It's more likely they will be 6 PL than 4PL in 9th ed...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Slayer6 wrote:
Alright my mistake they are 3W. I won't edit my reply to hide the mistake.

That still doesn't change the fact that it's still only a couple of shots which can partially be mitigated by screening...

Hotshot Lasguns with FRFSRF will completely decimate them. So their cost needs to be lower to justify how fragile they are.


Fragile as if. 9 T5 3+ wounds vs 5 T3 3+ wounds for same price, 50% more melta shots, ability to advance if needed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/30 06:45:45


12 factions for Lord of The Rings
4663
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
 Mr.Omega wrote:
Remember when Space Marines were meant to be an army that revolved around strategy and making otherwise individually underwhelming units work in concert?


Haha nevermind here's a unit with nothing but double range meltaguns that fire twice such that it nukes vehicles that dare to exist within 24'' of it with minimal effort or brainpower involved

I remember those editions. I also remember space marines being easy wins at tournaments for any competitive Xenos player.

You have quite an impressively atrocious memory then.

Gladius
Grav Bikes
Cent Star
Alpha Strike
Tiggystar, Geokinesis, Librarius, all the other bs


Have I said enough, or would you like me to go back further than a single edition ago?


Please remind me what competitive Orks and Tyranids were doing in 7th again....

7th was a raging dumpster fire by the end in terms of competitive play. Your 7th ed examples are therefore irrelevant to me.

So yes I was talking about editions prior to 7th and codex space marines.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/30 12:02:41


 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





A chunk of that list was available in 6th, and Orks/Tyranids were in an even worse spot then before Skyblight, so honestly you’re just talking out of your ass.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Nitro Zeus wrote:
A chunk of that list was available in 6th, and Orks/Tyranids were in an even worse spot then before Skyblight, so honestly you’re just talking out of your ass.

Some people love their marines being OP so they can feel like movie marine's so much they give 0 about balance.
If they can't win without thinking, it's because marine's are too weak and every other faction is OP.
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Not that the issue you're trying to resolve is particularly interesting (dunno what holding the past has on the state of the game today and in the future) but... you guys are aware that "xenos" isn't a faction, right ?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/30 13:06:14


 
   
Made in ca
Fully-charged Electropriest






Voss wrote:

Round two of Primaris transportation failure, go!

Granted, they don't need it, but the sheer puzzle box of what space marine transports can and can't do gets more impressively screwed up with every single iteration: 6 models, 10 models, 12 models 15 models, jump packs and dreads on this flyer, these unit types in that drop pod, sometimes things count as two models, sometimes jump packs fit, sometimes they don't, none of the new stuff in old stuff, only some of the new stuff in the frickin' open-topped transport (which isn't technically open-topped despite essentially being a floating open pickup truck). Space marine transportation logistics is a frikkin' game of Tetris.

Sometimes the techmarines bring extra replacement tracks for the grav vehicles and have to bring an extra repulsor to the battle just in case an intercessor squad came along instead of tac squad.



Hey at least your transports weren't heavily marketed as "hovercrafts with an open topped design" all over facebook and warcom only for the rules to drop and see that it has neither of these rules

Admech 5000
Drukhari 4000
2500
500
Imperial knights 1200

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

dhallnet wrote:
Not that the issue you're trying to resolve is particularly interesting (dunno what holding the past has on the state of the game today and in the future) but... you guys are aware that "xenos" isn't a faction, right ?

I am aware they are not a faction just an umbrella term.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Blood Hawk wrote:
dhallnet wrote:
Not that the issue you're trying to resolve is particularly interesting (dunno what holding the past has on the state of the game today and in the future) but... you guys are aware that "xenos" isn't a faction, right ?

I am aware they are not a faction just an umbrella term.


just as an aside, in that umbreally is a whole slew of things not nearly as rosey as certain other parts make it look.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





 Blood Hawk wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
A chunk of that list was available in 6th, and Orks/Tyranids were in an even worse spot then before Skyblight, so honestly you’re just talking out of your ass.

Some people love their marines being OP so they can feel like movie marine's so much they give 0 about balance.
If they can't win without thinking, it's because marine's are too weak and every other faction is OP.

The salt is strong with this one I see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:
A chunk of that list was available in 6th, and Orks/Tyranids were in an even worse spot then before Skyblight, so honestly you’re just talking out of your ass.

Likewise. Answer me this, what would you rather play against for an easy win to advance to the next round of a tournament in 2nd through 6th, the best codex marines had to offer or the top xeno builds at the time?


We're comparing 1 faction's performance with 9 completely different factions now?

Lol. K.
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut





Ah yes, shifting the goal posts my favourite past time.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Chaos had the most devastating army builds by the end of 7th anyway. I would take my chances with marines or eldar before I went up against another gorram cabal star.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in se
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets




Sweden

I think these new meltaguys look cheesy and I'm sure they will be OP as hell bit here is a theory for you:
They will increase points across the board for all armies but leave PL untouched. This means PL will not correspond to 20-25 pts any more. If they make a roughly 20% points increase to units at avarage then maybe a PL will now be 25-30pts. That could mean the new meltaboys might be pointed up to 150pts.

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in ca
Fully-charged Electropriest






Gitdakka wrote:
I think these new meltaguys look cheesy and I'm sure they will be OP as hell bit here is a theory for you:
They will increase points across the board for all armies but leave PL untouched. This means PL will not correspond to 20-25 pts any more. If they make a roughly 20% points increase to units at avarage then maybe a PL will now be 25-30pts. That could mean the new meltaboys might be pointed up to 150pts.


which is yet another reason for them to either get rid of PL or also change them in CA, just like points

Admech 5000
Drukhari 4000
2500
500
Imperial knights 1200

 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Spoiler:
 Slayer6 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Slayer6 wrote:
Alright my mistake they are 3W. I won't edit my reply to hide the mistake.

That still doesn't change the fact that it's still only a couple of shots which can partially be mitigated by screening...

Hotshot Lasguns with FRFSRF will completely decimate them. So their cost needs to be lower to justify how fragile they are.
Decimation is not that bad. Losing 1 wound doesn't impact that at all.

As for devastating them, well...

If you're the 5" Deep Strike regiment, for immediate Rapid Fire, you would need...

9 failed saves
27/2 wounds
81/2 hits
243/4 shots, or just over 60.

Admittedly, that's only 160-odd points of units, but couple of things.

1) That's in 8th edition points-it'll get more pricey.
2) The unit you're attacking, is still cheaper.
3) You're doing that T2, unless you want to start your squishy butts on the field.
4) You're definitely losing them afterwards. 20 or so T3 4+ Wounds, within Rapid Fire Range, won't last long.


There's 2 Tempestus Deep Strike Rapid Fire regiments: Iotan Gorgonnes which can perform Daring Descent 5" away, and Iotan Dragons with +6" to Rapid Fire weapon ranges.
The Iotan Gorgonnes also benefit from additional hits on rolls of 6+.

A full 10 man squad of Iotan Dragons for 70pts you get a basic 9 shots, if you have a Tempestor Prime nearby, that increases to 18 with FRFSRF, then 36 with RF range.

Nominally I would always keep 2 squads for each Tempestor Prime (who also has a Command Rod).

So onwards to the math! Your numbers were a bit off: You are assuming Conscripts = Scions.
Conscripts hit on 5+, wound on 5+, have to beat a 3+, have to wound 3 times.
Scions hit on a 3+, wound on a 5+, have to beat a 5+, have to wound 3 times.
Additional modifications for the Scions are based upon their Regiments.

36 shots results in an estimated 24 hits
24 hits results in an estimated 8 wounds
8 wounds results in an estimated 5.33 failed saves.
So depending on that last save, 2 might die.
This means 14 HSLG are needed to theoretically kill them.

Now for the other one! Iotan Gorgonnes - I don't need the Tempestor Prime here.

Deep Strike 5" away, then use the Grenadiers! Stratagem.

10D6 Frag Grenades = estimated 35 shots
35 shots, lets assume 24 hits, + additional 6 from their doctrine; so 30 hits.
30 hits results in 10 wounds
10 wounds result in 3.33 wounds so 1 might die.
This means 27 Grenadiers with Frag Grenades are needed to theoretically kill them (not possible since the Stratagem says 10 max).


Lastly, if we used Iotan Gorgonnes with the FRFSRF drop, then we have:

36 shots + HSLP
24 hits + 6 more from the doctrine = 30 hits
30 hits results in 10 wounds
10 wounds results in 6.66 failed saves.
This means 13 HSLG are needed to theoretically kill them

Generally I deploy Iotan Dragons as a big force on T2 - 1 Tempestor Prime with: Command Rod, Master of Command, Tactical Auto-Reliquary of Tyberius, and Inspired Tactics.
This results in 4 orders or 5 on a 2+, so 5x 10 man Dragons squads that can rapid fire straight off the bat for a total force cost of 390 points. Then at the end Unquestioning Obedience is used so that if any morale checks are taken, that force is A-OK until my next turn.

You can throw the numbers even further out by using Lambdan Lions but drop them and a Tempestor out of a Valkyrie, then move into RF range (interestingly enough, it is listed as a disembark, not a DS), or utilize the Precision Drop stratagem. The only issue is if the Valkyrie moves over 20", but the casualties should be minimal.

So lets give the Tempestor Prime the WLT to reroll 1's
36 shots results in 24 hits + 4 additional from rerolls
28 hits results in 9 wounds
9 wounds results in 7.5 failed saves.
Let's assume the Tempestor had a Plasma Pistol, so if he overcharges it, he should be able to pick up the last kill since they won't even get a save, and maybe use a CRR against a failed W roll.

Kappic Eagles can also mess with it.

Since dropping from a Valkyrie counts as disembarking, they get +1 to hit.
36 shots results in 30 hits
30 hits results in 10 wounds
10 wounds results in 6.66 failed saves.

It's for all these reasons why I believe Tempestus is broken when going up against Primaris due to their lack of Invulnerable saves.
Tempestus is dirt cheap
Tempestus is flexible
Tempestus have orders and variable doctrines.

Alright sure, the enemy Eradicators are strong, but they will peel open just as well as any other Primaris marines. Terminators with TH/SS? I got no answer. Just one squad of them can turn any of my strategies into a meat grinder.
60 shots is what's needed.

60 shots
40 hits
40/3 wounds
80/9 failed saves
Close to 9 damage.

I did forget about the +6" range Regiment, but that doesn't really change the underlying math.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Gitdakka wrote:
that could mean the new meltaboys might be pointed up to 150pts.

At 150 they are still better than most infantry based anti vehicle unit.
But at least they cost the same.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
Spoiler:
 Slayer6 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Slayer6 wrote:
Alright my mistake they are 3W. I won't edit my reply to hide the mistake.

That still doesn't change the fact that it's still only a couple of shots which can partially be mitigated by screening...

Hotshot Lasguns with FRFSRF will completely decimate them. So their cost needs to be lower to justify how fragile they are.
Decimation is not that bad. Losing 1 wound doesn't impact that at all.

As for devastating them, well...

If you're the 5" Deep Strike regiment, for immediate Rapid Fire, you would need...

9 failed saves
27/2 wounds
81/2 hits
243/4 shots, or just over 60.

Admittedly, that's only 160-odd points of units, but couple of things.

1) That's in 8th edition points-it'll get more pricey.
2) The unit you're attacking, is still cheaper.
3) You're doing that T2, unless you want to start your squishy butts on the field.
4) You're definitely losing them afterwards. 20 or so T3 4+ Wounds, within Rapid Fire Range, won't last long.


There's 2 Tempestus Deep Strike Rapid Fire regiments: Iotan Gorgonnes which can perform Daring Descent 5" away, and Iotan Dragons with +6" to Rapid Fire weapon ranges.
The Iotan Gorgonnes also benefit from additional hits on rolls of 6+.

A full 10 man squad of Iotan Dragons for 70pts you get a basic 9 shots, if you have a Tempestor Prime nearby, that increases to 18 with FRFSRF, then 36 with RF range.

Nominally I would always keep 2 squads for each Tempestor Prime (who also has a Command Rod).

So onwards to the math! Your numbers were a bit off: You are assuming Conscripts = Scions.
Conscripts hit on 5+, wound on 5+, have to beat a 3+, have to wound 3 times.
Scions hit on a 3+, wound on a 5+, have to beat a 5+, have to wound 3 times.
Additional modifications for the Scions are based upon their Regiments.

36 shots results in an estimated 24 hits
24 hits results in an estimated 8 wounds
8 wounds results in an estimated 5.33 failed saves.
So depending on that last save, 2 might die.
This means 14 HSLG are needed to theoretically kill them.

Now for the other one! Iotan Gorgonnes - I don't need the Tempestor Prime here.

Deep Strike 5" away, then use the Grenadiers! Stratagem.

10D6 Frag Grenades = estimated 35 shots
35 shots, lets assume 24 hits, + additional 6 from their doctrine; so 30 hits.
30 hits results in 10 wounds
10 wounds result in 3.33 wounds so 1 might die.
This means 27 Grenadiers with Frag Grenades are needed to theoretically kill them (not possible since the Stratagem says 10 max).


Lastly, if we used Iotan Gorgonnes with the FRFSRF drop, then we have:

36 shots + HSLP
24 hits + 6 more from the doctrine = 30 hits
30 hits results in 10 wounds
10 wounds results in 6.66 failed saves.
This means 13 HSLG are needed to theoretically kill them

Generally I deploy Iotan Dragons as a big force on T2 - 1 Tempestor Prime with: Command Rod, Master of Command, Tactical Auto-Reliquary of Tyberius, and Inspired Tactics.
This results in 4 orders or 5 on a 2+, so 5x 10 man Dragons squads that can rapid fire straight off the bat for a total force cost of 390 points. Then at the end Unquestioning Obedience is used so that if any morale checks are taken, that force is A-OK until my next turn.

You can throw the numbers even further out by using Lambdan Lions but drop them and a Tempestor out of a Valkyrie, then move into RF range (interestingly enough, it is listed as a disembark, not a DS), or utilize the Precision Drop stratagem. The only issue is if the Valkyrie moves over 20", but the casualties should be minimal.

So lets give the Tempestor Prime the WLT to reroll 1's
36 shots results in 24 hits + 4 additional from rerolls
28 hits results in 9 wounds
9 wounds results in 7.5 failed saves.
Let's assume the Tempestor had a Plasma Pistol, so if he overcharges it, he should be able to pick up the last kill since they won't even get a save, and maybe use a CRR against a failed W roll.

Kappic Eagles can also mess with it.

Since dropping from a Valkyrie counts as disembarking, they get +1 to hit.
36 shots results in 30 hits
30 hits results in 10 wounds
10 wounds results in 6.66 failed saves.

It's for all these reasons why I believe Tempestus is broken when going up against Primaris due to their lack of Invulnerable saves.
Tempestus is dirt cheap
Tempestus is flexible
Tempestus have orders and variable doctrines.

Alright sure, the enemy Eradicators are strong, but they will peel open just as well as any other Primaris marines. Terminators with TH/SS? I got no answer. Just one squad of them can turn any of my strategies into a meat grinder.
60 shots is what's needed.

60 shots
40 hits
40/3 wounds
80/9 failed saves
Close to 9 damage.

I did forget about the +6" range Regiment, but that doesn't really change the underlying math.

It kinds does in terms of reliability for achieving said math, and that's why I've said Dragons were the best way to run Scions.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

ERJAK wrote:
 Grimgold wrote:
Color me unimpressed, it's a 3 wound model with t5 no invul and a 24" range. Trust me when I say if that were a good stat combination necrons would know, because we've had that statline this entire edition in destroyers, who are way more killy than these guys. The issue isn't output, it's staying power, Units of destroyers pop like soap bubbles, and these guys will as well.


Destroyers aren't anywhere near as killy as these. One less shot, sure, but +2S, +1AP and 6d damage.

Destroyer Vs Rhino: 1.2 wounds

Heavy Destroyer Vs Rhino: 1.68 wounds

Eradicator Vs Rhino: 3.11 wounds.

A little bit more fair

Destroyer VS Eradicator: 2.4 wounds

Eradicator Vs Eradicator: 2.6 wounds (keeping in mind damage is capped at 3)

Against Rhino chassis targets Eradicators do 2.5 times the damage of a destroyer at the same statline while also doing 8-10% more damage vs the Destroyers ideal targets.

Now I'm not 100% familiar with Necron army rules and what you can buff your destroyers with, but I doubt it's much better than what marines have.


It's ok you didn't know about extermination protocols which give destroyers full rerolls on both hit and wounds,

with that in mind here is how the numbers actually shake out:

destroyers vs rhino
(2/3 + (1/3 * 2/3)) * (1/3 + (2/3 * 1/3)) * 5/6 * 2 * 3 = 2.47

as you can see the eradicators are not doing 2.5 times the damage, and that's against a soft target, against something like a LRBT, destroyers still do the above but eradicators now do:

2/3 * 1/2 * 4.47 * 2 = 2.98 within 12"
2/3 * 1/2 * 3.5 * 2 = 2.3 outside of 12"

Heavy destroyer vs rhino or an LRBT
(2/3 + (1/3 * 2/3)) * (2/3 + (1/3 * 2/3)) * 3.5 = 2.76

Destroyers don't have to be within 12" to achieve those results, and can be deep struck fairly easily, they reanimate, they have a 10" move and fly, and you get all of that for only 4 points more per model. With all of that you would think necrons would love destroyers, but the truth is that necron players stopped taking destroyers when doom 6 became a thing because destroyers were a constant disappointment. Again it's not a question of output, it's a question of staying power, and they might get one shot off and then die. It's just super hard to make a unit like that work, and it will be the same for the eradicators.

Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
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Spoiler:
 Grimgold wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
 Grimgold wrote:
Color me unimpressed, it's a 3 wound model with t5 no invul and a 24" range. Trust me when I say if that were a good stat combination necrons would know, because we've had that statline this entire edition in destroyers, who are way more killy than these guys. The issue isn't output, it's staying power, Units of destroyers pop like soap bubbles, and these guys will as well.


Destroyers aren't anywhere near as killy as these. One less shot, sure, but +2S, +1AP and 6d damage.

Destroyer Vs Rhino: 1.2 wounds

Heavy Destroyer Vs Rhino: 1.68 wounds

Eradicator Vs Rhino: 3.11 wounds.

A little bit more fair

Destroyer VS Eradicator: 2.4 wounds

Eradicator Vs Eradicator: 2.6 wounds (keeping in mind damage is capped at 3)

Against Rhino chassis targets Eradicators do 2.5 times the damage of a destroyer at the same statline while also doing 8-10% more damage vs the Destroyers ideal targets.

Now I'm not 100% familiar with Necron army rules and what you can buff your destroyers with, but I doubt it's much better than what marines have.


It's ok you didn't know about extermination protocols which give destroyers full rerolls on both hit and wounds,

with that in mind here is how the numbers actually shake out:

destroyers vs rhino
(2/3 + (1/3 * 2/3)) * (1/3 + (2/3 * 1/3)) * 5/6 * 2 * 3 = 2.47

as you can see the eradicators are not doing 2.5 times the damage, and that's against a soft target, against something like a LRBT, destroyers still do the above but eradicators now do:

2/3 * 1/2 * 4.47 * 2 = 2.98 within 12"
2/3 * 1/2 * 3.5 * 2 = 2.3 outside of 12"

Heavy destroyer vs rhino or an LRBT
(2/3 + (1/3 * 2/3)) * (2/3 + (1/3 * 2/3)) * 3.5 = 2.76

Destroyers don't have to be within 12" to achieve those results, and can be deep struck fairly easily, they reanimate, they have a 10" move and fly, and you get all of that for only 4 points more per model. With all of that you would think necrons would love destroyers, but the truth is that necron players stopped taking destroyers when doom 6 became a thing because destroyers were a constant disappointment. Again it's not a question of output, it's a question of staying power, and they might get one shot off and then die. It's just super hard to make a unit like that work, and it will be the same for the eradicators.


I think this is a key point to how Eradicators interact with the game. They will not likely have stratagems to increase their damage as opposed to many other units that do. No one would take a 3 shot melta unit. These guys will dump shots once or twice and then die. And at the same time if you decide to max out your Heavy slots with them you're missing out on the other tools and will be forced into another detachment.

The more we go on in this thread the more convinced I am that they aren't a huge problem even if they're on the other further end of good.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/30 16:06:41


   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Spoiler:
 Slayer6 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
 Slayer6 wrote:
Alright my mistake they are 3W. I won't edit my reply to hide the mistake.

That still doesn't change the fact that it's still only a couple of shots which can partially be mitigated by screening...

Hotshot Lasguns with FRFSRF will completely decimate them. So their cost needs to be lower to justify how fragile they are.
Decimation is not that bad. Losing 1 wound doesn't impact that at all.

As for devastating them, well...

If you're the 5" Deep Strike regiment, for immediate Rapid Fire, you would need...

9 failed saves
27/2 wounds
81/2 hits
243/4 shots, or just over 60.

Admittedly, that's only 160-odd points of units, but couple of things.

1) That's in 8th edition points-it'll get more pricey.
2) The unit you're attacking, is still cheaper.
3) You're doing that T2, unless you want to start your squishy butts on the field.
4) You're definitely losing them afterwards. 20 or so T3 4+ Wounds, within Rapid Fire Range, won't last long.


There's 2 Tempestus Deep Strike Rapid Fire regiments: Iotan Gorgonnes which can perform Daring Descent 5" away, and Iotan Dragons with +6" to Rapid Fire weapon ranges.
The Iotan Gorgonnes also benefit from additional hits on rolls of 6+.

A full 10 man squad of Iotan Dragons for 70pts you get a basic 9 shots, if you have a Tempestor Prime nearby, that increases to 18 with FRFSRF, then 36 with RF range.

Nominally I would always keep 2 squads for each Tempestor Prime (who also has a Command Rod).

So onwards to the math! Your numbers were a bit off: You are assuming Conscripts = Scions.
Conscripts hit on 5+, wound on 5+, have to beat a 3+, have to wound 3 times.
Scions hit on a 3+, wound on a 5+, have to beat a 5+, have to wound 3 times.
Additional modifications for the Scions are based upon their Regiments.

36 shots results in an estimated 24 hits
24 hits results in an estimated 8 wounds
8 wounds results in an estimated 5.33 failed saves.
So depending on that last save, 2 might die.
This means 14 HSLG are needed to theoretically kill them.

Now for the other one! Iotan Gorgonnes - I don't need the Tempestor Prime here.

Deep Strike 5" away, then use the Grenadiers! Stratagem.

10D6 Frag Grenades = estimated 35 shots
35 shots, lets assume 24 hits, + additional 6 from their doctrine; so 30 hits.
30 hits results in 10 wounds
10 wounds result in 3.33 wounds so 1 might die.
This means 27 Grenadiers with Frag Grenades are needed to theoretically kill them (not possible since the Stratagem says 10 max).


Lastly, if we used Iotan Gorgonnes with the FRFSRF drop, then we have:

36 shots + HSLP
24 hits + 6 more from the doctrine = 30 hits
30 hits results in 10 wounds
10 wounds results in 6.66 failed saves.
This means 13 HSLG are needed to theoretically kill them

Generally I deploy Iotan Dragons as a big force on T2 - 1 Tempestor Prime with: Command Rod, Master of Command, Tactical Auto-Reliquary of Tyberius, and Inspired Tactics.
This results in 4 orders or 5 on a 2+, so 5x 10 man Dragons squads that can rapid fire straight off the bat for a total force cost of 390 points. Then at the end Unquestioning Obedience is used so that if any morale checks are taken, that force is A-OK until my next turn.

You can throw the numbers even further out by using Lambdan Lions but drop them and a Tempestor out of a Valkyrie, then move into RF range (interestingly enough, it is listed as a disembark, not a DS), or utilize the Precision Drop stratagem. The only issue is if the Valkyrie moves over 20", but the casualties should be minimal.

So lets give the Tempestor Prime the WLT to reroll 1's
36 shots results in 24 hits + 4 additional from rerolls
28 hits results in 9 wounds
9 wounds results in 7.5 failed saves.
Let's assume the Tempestor had a Plasma Pistol, so if he overcharges it, he should be able to pick up the last kill since they won't even get a save, and maybe use a CRR against a failed W roll.

Kappic Eagles can also mess with it.

Since dropping from a Valkyrie counts as disembarking, they get +1 to hit.
36 shots results in 30 hits
30 hits results in 10 wounds
10 wounds results in 6.66 failed saves.

It's for all these reasons why I believe Tempestus is broken when going up against Primaris due to their lack of Invulnerable saves.
Tempestus is dirt cheap
Tempestus is flexible
Tempestus have orders and variable doctrines.

Alright sure, the enemy Eradicators are strong, but they will peel open just as well as any other Primaris marines. Terminators with TH/SS? I got no answer. Just one squad of them can turn any of my strategies into a meat grinder.
60 shots is what's needed.

60 shots
40 hits
40/3 wounds
80/9 failed saves
Close to 9 damage.

I did forget about the +6" range Regiment, but that doesn't really change the underlying math.

It kinds does in terms of reliability for achieving said math, and that's why I've said Dragons were the best way to run Scions.


Ah I see, his definition of ‘Decimation’ is ‘Elimination’.
Mine is: reduce to a critical level. And losing 66% of the unit’s strength fits the definition rather aptly.
Iotan Gorgonnes also can only DS 1 squad per turn with the stratagem, and I generally use this to throw 10 man squads with 4 Flamers at a screening unit (or an enemy flyer if I’m desperate, Elimination Protocols is hilarious in this situation!) before a Valkyrie Plasma/Melta drop.

I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore. 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Grimgold wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
 Grimgold wrote:
Color me unimpressed, it's a 3 wound model with t5 no invul and a 24" range. Trust me when I say if that were a good stat combination necrons would know, because we've had that statline this entire edition in destroyers, who are way more killy than these guys. The issue isn't output, it's staying power, Units of destroyers pop like soap bubbles, and these guys will as well.


Destroyers aren't anywhere near as killy as these. One less shot, sure, but +2S, +1AP and 6d damage.

Destroyer Vs Rhino: 1.2 wounds

Heavy Destroyer Vs Rhino: 1.68 wounds

Eradicator Vs Rhino: 3.11 wounds.

A little bit more fair

Destroyer VS Eradicator: 2.4 wounds

Eradicator Vs Eradicator: 2.6 wounds (keeping in mind damage is capped at 3)

Against Rhino chassis targets Eradicators do 2.5 times the damage of a destroyer at the same statline while also doing 8-10% more damage vs the Destroyers ideal targets.

Now I'm not 100% familiar with Necron army rules and what you can buff your destroyers with, but I doubt it's much better than what marines have.


It's ok you didn't know about extermination protocols which give destroyers full rerolls on both hit and wounds,

with that in mind here is how the numbers actually shake out:

destroyers vs rhino
(2/3 + (1/3 * 2/3)) * (1/3 + (2/3 * 1/3)) * 5/6 * 2 * 3 = 2.47

as you can see the eradicators are not doing 2.5 times the damage, and that's against a soft target, against something like a LRBT, destroyers still do the above but eradicators now do:

2/3 * 1/2 * 4.47 * 2 = 2.98 within 12"
2/3 * 1/2 * 3.5 * 2 = 2.3 outside of 12"

Heavy destroyer vs rhino or an LRBT
(2/3 + (1/3 * 2/3)) * (2/3 + (1/3 * 2/3)) * 3.5 = 2.76

Destroyers don't have to be within 12" to achieve those results, and can be deep struck fairly easily, they reanimate, they have a 10" move and fly, and you get all of that for only 4 points more per model. With all of that you would think necrons would love destroyers, but the truth is that necron players stopped taking destroyers when doom 6 became a thing because destroyers were a constant disappointment. Again it's not a question of output, it's a question of staying power, and they might get one shot off and then die. It's just super hard to make a unit like that work, and it will be the same for the eradicators.


I think this is a key point to how Eradicators interact with the game. They will not likely have stratagems to increase their damage as opposed to many other units that do. No one would take a 3 shot melta unit. These guys will dump shots once or twice and then die. And at the same time if you decide to max out your Heavy slots with them you're missing out on the other tools and will be forced into another detachment.

The more we go on in this thread the more convinced I am that they aren't a huge problem even if they're on the other further end of good.



Except he's compairing a fully buffed unit vrs NO CM & LT rerolls buffs.
Also These guys have access to a bunch of defensive buffs.
Transhuman pysyology for 1 means wounding them on less than a 4 is impossible, can pick always in cover ravenguard for 2+ Armour and -1 to hit in cover, (though as they have the infantry keyword that is probably not worth it as picking up a -1 to hit in oth looks trivially easy dhe to terrain)
Iron hands for a 6+FNP and oh a medic for +1FNP and bring back 1 model per turn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/30 16:35:41


 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:


I think this is a key point to how Eradicators interact with the game. They will not likely have stratagems to increase their damage as opposed to many other units that do. No one would take a 3 shot melta unit. These guys will dump shots once or twice and then die. And at the same time if you decide to max out your Heavy slots with them you're missing out on the other tools and will be forced into another detachment.

The more we go on in this thread the more convinced I am that they aren't a huge problem even if they're on the other further end of good.





That just shows the greater problem with the space marine codex. When a unit with these stats isn't considered an autopick because theyres better options while other codexes don't have the same level of firepower without jumping through hoops IS a problem with the design of 40k.

Admech 5000
Drukhari 4000
2500
500
Imperial knights 1200

 
   
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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


I think this is a key point to how Eradicators interact with the game. They will not likely have stratagems to increase their damage as opposed to many other units that do. No one would take a 3 shot melta unit. These guys will dump shots once or twice and then die. And at the same time if you decide to max out your Heavy slots with them you're missing out on the other tools and will be forced into another detachment.

The more we go on in this thread the more convinced I am that they aren't a huge problem even if they're on the other further end of good.





That just shows the greater problem with the space marine codex. When a unit with these stats isn't considered an autopick because theyres better options while other codexes don't have the same level of firepower without jumping through hoops IS a problem with the design of 40k.


I think there's a little more nuance to it. I'm sure you can walk these guys up the table, but if you do I can measure their effective range and counter with longer range guns before they shoot anything useful. They otherwise need to come in by reserves and that is a more difficult scenario to protect against.

So, functionally what is the difference between Eradicators spending a CP to get their job done and Destroyers spending a CP to get their job done?

There is also a chance Eradicators only get to be a 3 man unit, which means they don't scale as sharply whereas 3 obliterators will produce 36 shots in a single phase.

   
 
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