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Does anyone know if No Method of Death Beyond Our Grasp work on Bloodbrides or is it just vanilla Wyches?

Bloodbrides have the WYCH keyword, so I guess it works with them.

 Denegaar wrote:
Bloodbrides have the WYCH keyword, so I guess it works with them.

I was asking because I've seen at least one statement that it's tied to the Wych datasheet like the Space Marine one is tied to Assault Intercessors. My book is in the mail so I can't check.

Yeah no problem.

The stratagem says "pick a unit of Cult of Strife Wyches", and the Wych datasheed doesn't change when improving them to Bloodbrides, so they keep the "wyches" keyword. And of course, they have to be Cult of Strife.

 Denegaar wrote:
Yeah no problem.

The stratagem says "pick a unit of Cult of Strife Wyches", and the Wych datasheed doesn't change when improving them to Bloodbrides, so they keep the "wyches" keyword. And of course, they have to be Cult of Strife.

Yeah that sure sounds like it works. O.K., thanks again!

Tyel wrote:
If they are throwing out a few weenie units to score engage/scramblers that's fine - just go kill them to clear the quarter. You were probably going to do so anyway.

I mean if I said "can you max out Engage turns 2-5 without moving troops" I think you'd say "no chance" - or at least no chance unless the game's extremely one-sided. Which makes me think Herd the Prey is probably a guaranteed 6-12 points in most circumstances.

This is a bit of a 180 from my thoughts up until Saturday or something - but still. I don't think its a bad engage - just different. In practice moving units is always more reliable than having to kill something - but equally sometimes you don't want to scatter your forces all over the table.

This goes along my thinking too. Engage need you to spread out, equaling more risk due to less support and bigger footprint. It also means it´s harder to hold Primaries since there´s a tax as the exposed units will often die. With Herd you instead force the opponents hand to serve you units.

It really depends on the opponent and its battle plan.

The good thing is that we are talking about that, what makes Herd the Prey a balances and good secondary to think about.

Of course Engage gives you the control while Herd gives the control to your adversary. That makes me lean towards Engage in most cases.
On the other hand, making the enemies commit to deny our Herd can make them take bad decisions and offer us easy targets. That makes me think Heard is more fun to play with.

Audustum wrote:
Does anyone know if No Method of Death Beyond Our Grasp work on Bloodbrides or is it just vanilla Wyches?

All the upgraded forms of our troops gain the appropriate keyword, they don't lose their existing keywords IIRC.


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 gameandwatch wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


Fear and Terror is one I think i'll find myself going to a lot, basically any time I"m not against loyalist marines, because my tac list does have a lot of that freakshow element though the primary purpose of it is to give me +1 to hit rerolling 1s talos melta guns and the excellent fear incarnate warlord trait. But if I am up against an opponent with chaff I can eat, I'll be happy to take it and spook 15 dudes off the board.

Not sure where the reroll 1s is coming from, but isnt the +1 to hit dark creed melee only?

Ah feth me, you're right. For some reason I'd had it in my head this whole time that that ability was actually useful, but no, I guess a full 1/2 of Dark Creed just goes the feth away on turn 3.

RR1s is from the rsr archon reroll 1s to hit aura.

Welp, Dark Technomancers or Artists of the Flesh, which am I gonna go for?

Let's be real, Dark Creed+Poisoned Tongue was a beautiful dream I had anyway because there's basically a zero percent chance any given game I'm playing that I'm not playing space marines, and it doesn't make sense to pick the subfactions that just don't work against marines. so it'll just come down to if I want my talos brick to be tougher or more deadly.

Rereading dark technomancers I'm actually much less worried about using it on talos, since it's "if any unmodified hit rolls of 1 are rolled...then the bearer's unit suffers d3 mortal wounds" - so you're gonna shoot your 6 heat lance shots with a unit of 3, one of them is gonna roll a 1 most likely, and then you take one single d3 mortal wounds that you get a 5+ save against....yeah, that's worth +1 to wound and +1 damage.

What's the opinion on which Wych weapons are worthwhile in a 10 strong squad?

 harlokin wrote:
What's the opinion on which Wych weapons are worthwhile in a 10 strong squad?

I'm going for all of them, usually. Least worthwhile is probably the hydra gauntlets, but basically you're paying:

-10 points for +1 on your No Escape rolls and better than doubled damage output vs MEQ (totally worth it)
-5 points for 1.5x damage on one wych (worth it IMO)
-5 points for -1AP and +1 to wound vs GEQ/vehicles +2 to wound vs MEQ (most difficult to justify but still useful IMO)

10 wyches is 100 points, 125pts with upgrades on everyone. Assuming cult of strife wyches with no drugs just for ease of comparison, you've got:

-Just knives:
-9 dead Orks
-5.41 damage to MEQs
-3 damage to a standard tank

-All the goodies
-12.3 dead orks
-7.53 damage to MEQs
-4.33 damage to a standard tank

^I understand, obviously, actual numbers will be way better than that if you take particular cults, drugs etc, but it just shows how much of a damage multiplier those weapons can offer.

 harlokin wrote:
What's the opinion on which Wych weapons are worthwhile in a 10 strong squad?

Shardnet or Whip I would think. Whip gooses out a few extra attacks which is nice, but the Shardnet helps you win the No Escape roll-off so it's probably better.


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the_scotsman wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Does anyone know if No Method of Death Beyond Our Grasp work on Bloodbrides or is it just vanilla Wyches?

All the upgraded forms of our troops gain the appropriate keyword, they don't lose their existing keywords IIRC.

Thanks!

 harlokin wrote:
What's the opinion on which Wych weapons are worthwhile in a 10 strong squad?

I guess it depends on your game plan and how flush you're feeling points wise.

If you have a Cult of Strife detachment, an agoniser on a squad leader is an interesting option. The Charadon book has a strat called 'Hekatarii of the Crucible', which allows a standard Wych squad leader to take a relic. 'Morvaines Agoniser' can then be given in place of a standard agoniser, which in turn means any hits she causes automatically prevents the opposing unit from falling back. No roll off needed.

Razorflails seem to always be a good bet, insomuch as they effectively give you an extra bodies worth of output, but in only half the footprint on the board. I think I'd always take those where points allow.

Thanks for the responses, chaps.

What about the Hekatrix, is it worth upgrading her melee weapons? I know blast pistol is a popular option but does an agoniser or power sword boost the numbers enough to justify it over taking razorflails and hydra gauntlets?

Agonizer is nice for 2+ wound against anything not a Titan or vehicle. Against DG or any other T3+ model, ie everything, wounding on 2's can't be a bad thing.

Give her the relic whip and it's nearly guaranteed the enemy unit isn't falling back.

Agoniser is 4+ the Tryptych is 2+

 StrayIight wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
What's the opinion on which Wych weapons are worthwhile in a 10 strong squad?

I guess it depends on your game plan and how flush you're feeling points wise.

If you have a Cult of Strife detachment, an agoniser on a squad leader is an interesting option. The Charadon book has a strat called 'Hekatarii of the Crucible', which allows a standard Wych squad leader to take a relic. 'Morvaines Agoniser' can then be given in place of a standard agoniser, which in turn means any hits she causes automatically prevents the opposing unit from falling back. No roll off needed.

Razorflails seem to always be a good bet, insomuch as they effectively give you an extra bodies worth of output, but in only half the footprint on the board. I think I'd always take those where points allow.

Razorflails are adding less attacks than you think. You only get half an extra wych out of them.

Wych with Hekatarii blade: 4 attacks

Wych with Razorflails: 6 attacks.

If you're using adrenalight it becomes 5 vs 8, but still not an extra body's worth.

I wouldn't cut a blast pistol in a 10 man squad of wyches. For 5 points blast pistols on anything melee related are really auto take.

In fact I'd probably just upgrade the squad with agoniser and blast pistol for the hekatrix, no other special weapons. Razorflails, Gauntlets and Shardnet/Impaler are all good for their points but they typically don't add that much to the squad, slow down the game, and if you play WYSIWYG it's hard to play an hekatrix without any upgrades anyway. All my former hekatrix at least weren't just barebones models.

I agree 100% on the Blast Pistol.

Talking about WYSIWYG...what's the opinion when it comes to Phantasm Grenade Launchers, do they have to be modelled?

From memory, neither the Raider nor Venom kits come with one, Kabalites do (not that any of mine have them modelled), Hellions do (but theirs looks different).

I suppose, does the same apply to Chain Snares and Grisly Trophies?

 harlokin wrote:
I agree 100% on the Blast Pistol.

Talking about WYSIWYG...what's the opinion when it comes to Phantasm Grenade Launchers, do they have to be modelled?

From memory, neither the Raider nor Venom kits come with one, Kabalites do (not that any of mine have them modelled), Hellions do (but theirs looks different).

I suppose, does the same apply to Chain Snares and Grisly Trophies?

Ask your TO or opponents what they want.

In general, I’d say just avoid any confusion-if only some units have Phantasms, make it clear SOMEHOW who has them.

 harlokin wrote:
I agree 100% on the Blast Pistol.

Talking about WYSIWYG...what's the opinion when it comes to Phantasm Grenade Launchers, do they have to be modelled?

From memory, neither the Raider nor Venom kits come with one, Kabalites do (not that any of mine have them modelled), Hellions do (but theirs looks different).

I suppose, does the same apply to Chain Snares and Grisly Trophies?

I like to model my units with wysiwyg in mind, but I think it's unreasonable to expect that from any one I play against. As you say, many of these kits don't even come with the options. Not every player has the resources (time, money, modelling skills) to be able to meet a wysiwyg requirement, so it can become an unfair barrier to play.

Mark them on a list that your opponent can access, and make it clear and unambiguous as to what unit has x, and which do not. I think that's the only reasonable expectation any one should really worry about

I like there to be something visual but I'm not a stickler. If your army has all swords but ONE guy has an axe and you gave him a hammer instead, whatever, I get the idea. I gave one of my guys a two-handed greatsword instead of an axe.

Phantasm grenades I just tell my opponent who has it and make sure the model is modelled or painted in a way to distinguish it clearly. worse comes to worse I can put a coloured plastic ring around the base of all my models with it to help my opponent remember.

WYSWIG is tricky when not all kits HAVE phantasm launchers but can take them as an option

Also, every PGL looks different. Kabalite/Wych look the same, but both Hellion and Vehicle ones are absolutely different than the Troop version.

Drukhari models have some of the dumbest WYSIWYG stuff ever - like the microscopic PGLs on hellions and the cluster caltrops and guns that are UNDERNEATH reaver jetbikes so you can't see them.

Luckily, it's fairly easy to point out what has what in my army - ronald mcdonald has the PGL in the hellion squad, the guy riding the flayed skin jetbike is the Arena Champion and the one colored like a Tron bike has the special gun, the raiders that I've modeled with all wyches hanging off them with the nasty spikes and such have the grisly trophies and the chain snares and the one I've modeled with the splinter racks, all kabalites and the driver with the PGL has the PGL and splinter racks....it's...unconventional, but nobody ever could accuse me of not being able to differentiate my special dudes.


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I do run nonsense one of everything scourges and just tell my opponents which gun they're supposed to have 4 of. Because feth that gak I'm not figuring out how to collect all the scourges with the same gun and then have them just change which gun is best every edition.

So I wanted to ask, having read a large portion of this I don't see anyone talking about Phantasm Grenade launchers? My first thought was

Venoms in the dark creed with Grisly Trophies to get -3ld bubble followed by raiders / kabilite sybrites / wych hekatrix all with Phantasm Grenade launchers. Even an bladeguard vets unit with an aincent in it is dropped to 7. then just peppering them with mass Grenade shots.... bye bye bladeguard vets?

I mean my first list I came up with is running 8 of the launchers, assuming numbers of averages that 16 shots, 11 hits, 5 or 6 mortal wounds onto such a tough unit. And they have high ld, a russ tank commander wouldn't be anywhere near that lucky. Or a hive tyrant or Chaos deamon prince.... even necrons dropping them to 7 to pepper a doomsday ark or something else big....

the_scotsman wrote:

I do run nonsense one of everything scourges and just tell my opponents which gun they're supposed to have 4 of. Because feth that gak I'm not figuring out how to collect all the scourges with the same gun and then have them just change which gun is best every edition.

I think this is entirely sensible.
I love beautifully painted armies, equipped precisely etc, but it's seriously unfair to place an expectation on the community as a whole to keep up with these kind of requirements - especially in an evolving meta.

As a not unrelated extension, this is one of my bigger concerns regarding competitive play. In a meta which can change month by month via new rules releases, to compete reasonably seriously can require you to have either a huge amount of disposable income, the contacts to borrow a large range of models from, or simply to have have been involved for many, many years so you've built up a useful personal collection.

That's dangerously close to an insurmountable task for a newer player, which certainly doesn't help in growing a community.

I agree Azuza001, PGL in a vacuum isn't all that impressive but once you factor in the multiple ways we can drop Ld of an opponent and the sheer volume of these things we can bring it really does start to add up. Factor in that you can split fire it so your PGL shoots at the better target of opportunity and the rest of your squad can maintain focus on its primary target it offers some play.

A sneaky 1d3 MW or 1 MW here and there on a variety of our gear (caltrops, grav talons, certain obsessions like cult of cursed blade, toxin syringe, slashing impact, haywire grenade, shock prow etc...) we actually have a good variety of ways to pepper in MW across the army. I feel the PGL can just add to this for relatively cheap.

If I'm not mistaken very few armies are actually immune to it as well right? Marines ignore attrition mods I believe? This is simply a test vs. Ld characteristic, no failed LD necessary. Things like nids within synapse aren't even immune. Large mobs of orks however are I think as their LD is based on # of models and as such can hit pretty massive numbers right?

Nothing is immune to this kind of ld test. There are no rules I know of that say "you pass ld tests", just ones to auto pass moral which uses the ld value.

Only thing that stops it are things that shut down auras, morty won't get effected from the -3ld because he stops the auras from working. The rest of his army though..... time to see how that squad of 3 deathshroud terms like our toys.... lol.

We definitely have a large number of ways to deal mortal wounds (you'd suspect this is by deliberate design, with the writers awareness that we lack any presence in the psychic phase?)

A good list is likely going to be one that's full aware of this and very much takes advantage of one or more.