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 Red Corsair wrote:

Rivener wrote:
How do we deal with Mortarion? Dark Lance or Heat Lance spam doesn’t seem too cost effective.

Mortals would work well. Ichor injectors, precision blows, eviscerating flybys, bale blasts, possibly PLG. I mean, poison seems fairly decent as well fo chip damage and adding in dark lances and or heat lances should all snowball into your answer.

Honestly I wouldn't feel unequipped to handle him with this book. I think this book gives Death Guard players a reason to be afraid.

Yeah, 9 reavers alone have 3 heat lances at bs2+ with the appopriate drug, should deal an average of 3MWs using fly-by and another 1-2 additional MWs thanks to Grav talons. For 225 points and 2CPs it's not bad, they have potential to strip 30ish % of Mortarion's wounds with decent odds. With some luck they could also tarpit the big guy for a turn.

mortal wounds and poison are probably the easiest ways we have to ignore his various layers of defenses. An obsidian rose splinter+dark lance kabalite boat strips 6 unsaved wounds off him (the rr wound on the 2 dark lances improves their performance quite a bit, but 4 of those are just the 18 splinter shots. An obrose voidraven would be a fairly effective tool against DG in general but it can pack 2 S9 dark lance shots with a wound reroll as well.

Were I up against him with my TAC list, I'd drive a suicidal transport up to him to get him -3LD, deal about 6 mws on average with my phantasm launchers, deal 10.4 wounds with the dozen +1 to hit rerolling 1s heat lances on my Talos, and then probably shoot him with poison from hellions or kabalites to finish him off.

I'm not sure if it would be a smarter idea to focus on him or on the inevitable 3-man unit of blighthaulers that would probably be in the list, given how much damage those multimeltas can put out.

Morty incredibly easy for DE to bring down with just poison weapons. If hes failing invune saves on top of it dark lances drop him hella quick too. I can see morty going out of style real quick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The list I've come up with to try out my first game is heavy kabal.

Obsidian rose Patrol 1
Master archon - blast pistol/ Djin blade

10 Trueborn / Agonizer - Darklance 2x Blaster
10x Khabs / Agonizer- Darklance

9x Incubi

VoidRaven Voidlances/ VR missiles
VoidRaven VoidLances/ VR missiles

2x Raider / Dark Lance / Splinter racks / Chains
2x Raider / Dark Lance / Chains (wyches ride in one of these)

Obsidian Rose Patrol 2

Drazar (warlord)
10x Khabs / Agonizer - Darklance

10x Incubi

1x Raider / Dark Lance / Splinter racks / Chains
1x Raider / Dark Lance / Chains


Patrol (Custom Cult - *d3 Additional combat drug and +1 to wound vs monster/vehicle)

Succubus (Tri Whip/ Precision blows)

10x Wyches - Hekatrix /power sword/ Blast Pistol/ one of each wych weapon.

Edited for CP efficiency. TY for help.

Second archon with djin blade is a waste of time IMO if you're not giving him Hatred, but we've already been over that. I feel like just skip him and make drazar your sole HQ in that detachment.

10x and 9x incubi plus drazar feels like massively too many incubi for my taste. In general I feel like this army has a major achilles heel of a heavy board control horde list - you have like 600 of your 2000 points in planes and one real anti-chaff unit in the 10x wyches. Kabs aren't terrible at that job but they basically have to be hanging back not controlling the board as they try to kill enough stuff to be able to move forward. If anything boops their transport they can't shoot anymore, they've got super long range but have to kind of hang out in the back.

You'll be able to just rock any MEQ/hyper elite list by massive alpha strike, but orks/daemons/clowns I think you'll have trouble.

There's also no reason to run the Rose detachment as a Battalion. You're giving away 4cp out of the gate. You'll want to move the raider from the Cult detachment to the Kabal one as well as it gains nothing from being in the former (and you have 6 infantry units in the Rose detachment, meaning you get 6 transport slots).

 Xenomancers wrote:

Succubus (Tri Whip/ Precision blows)
*can I put a blast pistol on this???* Sure want to.

Lamentably not. Succubi can't swap their Glaive for one. So they only take a Blast Pistol if they wield a Glaive.

Sterling191 wrote:
There's also no reason to run the Rose detachment as a Battalion. You're giving away 4cp out of the gate. You'll want to move the raider from the Cult detachment to the Kabal one as well as it gains nothing from being in the former (and you have 6 infantry units in the Rose detachment, meaning you get 6 transport slots).

Good Call - can just fit into 3 patrols anyways. Isn't your first battalion/ / Brigade free though?

Also - Cult units can ride in a kabal transport? That is allowed?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:
There's also no reason to run the Rose detachment as a Battalion. You're giving away 4cp out of the gate. You'll want to move the raider from the Cult detachment to the Kabal one as well as it gains nothing from being in the former (and you have 6 infantry units in the Rose detachment, meaning you get 6 transport slots).

Good Call - can just fit into 3 patrols anyways. Isn't your first battalion/ / Brigade free though?

Also - Cult units can ride in a kabal transport? That is allowed?

Yeah transports just take DRUKHARI.

Your first battalion is free. BUT, it's free by way of "it costs 3cp, and gives you 3cp if your warlord is in it."

Drukhari all patrols makes the patrols cost 0cp. AND, if your warlord is in it, it still gives you 2CP.

So an all patrol army has 12, +2 for your warlord being in the patrol. So drukhari armies get 2 extra CP.

the_scotsman wrote:
Second archon with djin blade is a waste of time IMO if you're not giving him Hatred, but we've already been over that. I feel like just skip him and make drazar your sole HQ in that detachment.

10x and 9x incubi plus drazar feels like massively too many incubi for my taste. In general I feel like this army has a major achilles heel of a heavy board control horde list - you have like 600 of your 2000 points in planes and one real anti-chaff unit in the 10x wyches. Kabs aren't terrible at that job but they basically have to be hanging back not controlling the board as they try to kill enough stuff to be able to move forward. If anything boops their transport they can't shoot anymore, they've got super long range but have to kind of hang out in the back.

You'll be able to just rock any MEQ/hyper elite list by massive alpha strike, but orks/daemons/clowns I think you'll have trouble.

Plan was to have him roll with draz and incubi giving them the rerolls - I guess hes really not necessary but I want the trueborn too. I could drop him and trueborn upgrades and it doesn't even pay for another raider kahb unit :(.

I am thinking this is too many incubi too but I really have no idea how it is gonna play yet. (I played against 3 5 mans the first day the army came out and they did really well against me). Just going with the models that I have that I think forms some kind of a cohesive army. I also have lot of revers and they seem like they will be good too but the prices are clearly messed up on them so don't wanna bother.

Edited from yall advice. Look good now?

 vipoid wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Succubus (Tri Whip/ Precision blows)
*can I put a blast pistol on this???* Sure want to.

Lamentably not. Succubi can't swap their Glaive for one. So they only take a Blast Pistol if they wield a Glaive.

Psh what's with you guys? Do you want them to be one of those old shooter characters with like 10 weapons at all times or rpg characters that wield 300 lbs of crap like it's nothing before theyre over-burdened?

Yeah a pistol is actually not asking much. Wish our archon could wield a blaster and huskblade at the same time. Oh wait they can't have blasters....and haemonculus can't wield hex rifles....and we still don't have mobility options for our leaders yet. I'm sad now.

-------

Oddly I think dark scythes will replace dissies for me. I have 2 void ravens fully built but i'll have to proxy dark scythes. 12 shots on 2 planes wounding on 2s vs marines is pretty solid. I'm probably gonna need obsidian rose for the range boost though. It's actually sad how much void ravens out-class razorwing jets now. I'm not sure how they handle point vs point though.

I still think splinter cannon venoms with maybe enhanced sensory organs will be my go to vs anti-meq and whatever the equivalent is for one wound marines or sisters now.

What are your opinion on secondaries?

I´m thinking 2 blobs of Wracks (plus friends) holding the midfield Primaries and the rest of the army clearing our half of the table for Herd the Prey. Then Scramblers (Kabalites and Scourges) and Yvraine in the middle of the Freakshow wall doing Psychic Ritual. Should be 15+15+10 most of the time.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Morty incredibly easy for DE to bring down with just poison weapons. If hes failing invune saves on top of it dark lances drop him hella quick too. I can see morty going out of style real quick.

Poison Tongue obsession really could help here. 5 venoms alone, which can carry kabalites but also incubi, with dual splinter cannons have 30 shots, all wounding on 3s and with AP-1. Along with sources of MWs poison can be quite nasty for Morty.

I'd save lances and proper anti tank weapons for other stuff probably.

 Scactha wrote:
What are your opinion on secondaries?

I´m thinking 2 blobs of Wracks (plus friends) holding the midfield Primaries and the rest of the army clearing our half of the table for Herd the Prey. Then Scramblers (Kabalites and Scourges) and Yvraine in the middle of the Freakshow wall doing Psychic Ritual. Should be 15+15+10 most of the time.

Personally i feel like herd the prey is just bad engage on all fronts. like, I guess if you're up against a castling opponent who is doing like banners and not doing scramblers and trying to turtle up it could be a free 15, but most opponents I play against nowadays are doing the thing where they take little weenie units and plan to use them to score engage and scramblers and sometimes homer

All of the drukahri secondaries are kind of refreshing IMO because you look at them and go "I can see an opposing list that I would take this against....but this is never ALWAYS going to be the thing I want to do." there's no engage, there's no scramblers in there.

If you're heavy into wych cults, beasts for the arenas will be something you'll probably be able to go for fairly commonly in the current meta (what with sisters+ponies and admech horses and such running around). Herd the prey is good ironically as something you want to go for if your opponent doesn't want to spread out, so you can force them to do so or give up a free 15. Take them Alive is interesting because it kind of runs counter to a heavy alpha strike ethos, ideally you want to spread your casualties out and kill things each round of the game. I feel like a lot of the time if you have enough stuff on the board for take them alive, you will often go for assassinate instead.

Fear and Terror is one I think i'll find myself going to a lot, basically any time I"m not against loyalist marines, because my tac list does have a lot of that freakshow element though the primary purpose of it is to give me +1 to hit rerolling 1s talos melta guns and the excellent fear incarnate warlord trait. But if I am up against an opponent with chaff I can eat, I'll be happy to take it and spook 15 dudes off the board.

my only issue with it is how similar Beasts for the Arenas and Take them Alive is.

 Scactha wrote:
What are your opinion on secondaries?

I´m thinking 2 blobs of Wracks (plus friends) holding the midfield Primaries and the rest of the army clearing our half of the table for Herd the Prey. Then Scramblers (Kabalites and Scourges) and Yvraine in the middle of the Freakshow wall doing Psychic Ritual. Should be 15+15+10 most of the time.

If you're going for Scramblers, you want Mandrakes. They can innately re-deploy midgame in addition to their scout deploy pregame. Even a single squad of 5 as a utility pick makes Scramblers largely trivial.

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Morty incredibly easy for DE to bring down with just poison weapons. If hes failing invune saves on top of it dark lances drop him hella quick too. I can see morty going out of style real quick.

Poison Tongue obsession really could help here. 5 venoms alone, which can carry kabalites but also incubi, with dual splinter cannons have 30 shots, all wounding on 3s and with AP-1. Along with sources of MWs poison can be quite nasty for Morty.

I'd save lances and proper anti tank weapons for other stuff probably.

Well once you commit to killing him - you've gotta commit lances at that point. Pretty good chance you can drop him with just poison weapons though. DG is such an easy matchup for DE if they bring morty.

I think its also worth noting that there's a drukhari subfaction that makes action-based objectives extremely easy - coven of 12. Hexrifle/ossefactor 5-man wrack squads in coven of 12 detachment can Action and Shoot, as can any other unit if you're taking basically any mission with a built-in secondary (most mission secondaries do not specify INFANTRY only, so you can have cronos/talos pain engines popping longer ranged shots off while still performing actions.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Well once you commit to killing him - you've gotta commit lances at that point. Pretty good chance you can drop him with just poison weapons though. DG is such an easy matchup for DE if they bring morty.

Wouldn't call it an "easy" matchup, you're still needing nearly two hundred PT poison shots to put Morty down (this drops somewhat if you're taking Cannons for the extra AP). Between his -1 to hit and 5+++ he's still a beefy, beefy boy.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Well once you commit to killing him - you've gotta commit lances at that point. Pretty good chance you can drop him with just poison weapons though. DG is such an easy matchup for DE if they bring morty.

Wouldn't call it an "easy" matchup, you're still needing nearly two hundred PT poison shots to put Morty down (this drops somewhat if you're taking Cannons for the extra AP). Between his -1 to hit and 5+++ he's still a beefy, beefy boy.

how does he get the -1 to hit? I see the 5+FNP now from one of his WL traits, which sucks, but wheres he getting the -1?

the_scotsman wrote:

how does he get the -1 to hit? I see the 5+FNP now from one of his WL traits, which sucks, but wheres he getting the -1?

Miasma of Pestilence psyker power. It's pretty much an auto-take in a DG list. Whether it's going on Morty, a block of Terminators, a PBC, Plague Drones banzaiing up the board, it's always going to get used.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Well once you commit to killing him - you've gotta commit lances at that point. Pretty good chance you can drop him with just poison weapons though. DG is such an easy matchup for DE if they bring morty.

Wouldn't call it an "easy" matchup, you're still needing nearly two hundred PT poison shots to put Morty down (this drops somewhat if you're taking Cannons for the extra AP). Between his -1 to hit and 5+++ he's still a beefy, beefy boy.

Yeah, I think people are seeing wounding on a 4+ and thinking it’s a slam dunk. It takes a staggering amount of splinter rifle shots to bring him down. Wyches are a terrible matchup but could theoretically keep him held in place. Wracks get absolutely wrecked, but with the perfect coven combo they can deal some wounds back at least. The number of dark lances required to kill him when he has Miasma (which he very nearly always will) is shocking.

I think one of the more cost effective options we have to bring him down in one turn is actually Hellions using a custom cult: Test of Skill/Slashing Impact, take +1 Str drugs, then only go for the kill in T3 when they hit on 2’s. Even with Miasma up, you could theoretically take about 2/3 of his wounds off if you can miraculously Eviscerating Fly-By with all 20 Hellions.

Sterling191 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

how does he get the -1 to hit? I see the 5+FNP now from one of his WL traits, which sucks, but wheres he getting the -1?

Miasma of Pestilence psyker power. It's pretty much an auto-take in a DG list. Whether it's going on Morty, a block of Terminators, a PBC, Plague Drones banzaiing up the board, it's always going to get used.

OK, gotcha. Well, all the more reason trueborn rule I guess.

T8 18W 4++ 5+FNP -1 to hit -1 damage holy freakin moly.

Realistically, Morty is hard to shift but slow enough (and short ranged enough) that a flotilla can generally play around him for a few rounds. Take out his support pieces, plink off a few wounds where you can, but generally just keep an opponent from closing in where Contagions do their work.

PBCs dropping mortars and Fleshmower drones are what I worry about far more in the early game. If you can knock those out, Morty (or a block of Terminators) is just a big slow target to be whittled down at leisure.

the_scotsman wrote:

OK, gotcha. Well, all the more reason trueborn rule I guess.

T8 18W 4++ 5+FNP -1 to hit -1 damage holy freakin moly.

Yup, he's a beefy boy.

the_scotsman wrote:
Personally i feel like herd the prey is just bad engage on all fronts. like, I guess if you're up against a castling opponent who is doing like banners and not doing scramblers and trying to turtle up it could be a free 15, but most opponents I play against nowadays are doing the thing where they take little weenie units and plan to use them to score engage and scramblers and sometimes homer

If they are throwing out a few weenie units to score engage/scramblers that's fine - just go kill them to clear the quarter. You were probably going to do so anyway.

I mean if I said "can you max out Engage turns 2-5 without moving troops" I think you'd say "no chance" - or at least no chance unless the game's extremely one-sided. Which makes me think Herd the Prey is probably a guaranteed 6-12 points in most circumstances.

This is a bit of a 180 from my thoughts up until Saturday or something - but still. I don't think its a bad engage - just different. In practice moving units is always more reliable than having to kill something - but equally sometimes you don't want to scatter your forces all over the table.

Its probably something to tailor based on your opponent's list.

Tyel wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Personally i feel like herd the prey is just bad engage on all fronts. like, I guess if you're up against a castling opponent who is doing like banners and not doing scramblers and trying to turtle up it could be a free 15, but most opponents I play against nowadays are doing the thing where they take little weenie units and plan to use them to score engage and scramblers and sometimes homer

If they are throwing out a few weenie units to score engage/scramblers that's fine - just go kill them to clear the quarter. You were probably going to do so anyway.

I mean if I said "can you max out Engage turns 2-5 without moving troops" I think you'd say "no chance" - or at least no chance unless the game's extremely one-sided. Which makes me think Herd the Prey is probably a guaranteed 6-12 points in most circumstances.

This is a bit of a 180 from my thoughts up until Saturday or something - but still. I don't think its a bad engage - just different. In practice moving units is always more reliable than having to kill something - but equally sometimes you don't want to scatter your forces all over the table.

Its probably something to tailor based on your opponent's list.

Speaking of this, I read a review that said Engage and Herd are different categories and thus you can take both (my book is in the mail). Is this true? Seems like huge combo potential.

Audustum wrote:

Speaking of this, I read a review that said Engage and Herd are different categories and thus you can take both (my book is in the mail). Is this true? Seems like huge combo potential.

Nope. They're both Battlefield Supremacy.

Sterling191 wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Speaking of this, I read a review that said Engage and Herd are different categories and thus you can take both (my book is in the mail). Is this true? Seems like huge combo potential.

Nope. They're both Battlefield Supremacy.

Laaaaaame. Good to know though

We sadly cant all be Ravenwing and get 30VP just for showing up.

Sterling191 wrote:
We sadly cant all be Ravenwing and get 30VP just for showing up.

Ha!

I guess while I'm here bugging you guys as a DE newbie, what's you're take on Reapers? I kind of like the look of the 1D6 shot volume.

It's not a bad unit, it's just got serious competition from the Ravager which does the same job reliably and efficiently. Also, at present it doesnt get Power From Pain, and is stuck with the old Bladevanes profile.

the_scotsman wrote:


Fear and Terror is one I think i'll find myself going to a lot, basically any time I"m not against loyalist marines, because my tac list does have a lot of that freakshow element though the primary purpose of it is to give me +1 to hit rerolling 1s talos melta guns and the excellent fear incarnate warlord trait. But if I am up against an opponent with chaff I can eat, I'll be happy to take it and spook 15 dudes off the board.

Not sure where the reroll 1s is coming from, but isnt the +1 to hit dark creed melee only?