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I feel like it should either act as reserves, or not. If it does, then you can't use it on turn one. If it doesn't, then you can warp time after. But it should be consistent across the board with da jump, gate of infinity, etc.

So, I took a very different list to my normal Thousand Sons list to Blood and Glory over the weekend. Needless to say, it was a test weekend and I’ll definitely be changing some things. It was a 1750 event.



Missions were an unusual mixed of Eternal War and Maelstrom (as in, not the regular combinations and missions you see)

So, first game was against Drukari/Craftworlds soup list and a top player. Was an interesting game. I opted to test out webwaying the Tzaangors and 1 Shaman and DMCing the Terminators. Worked reasonably well and I killed a couple of Talos and some Wracks etc, but, I then failed hard on my Terminator saves and lost 6 instantly to shooting…. The other 4 died in combat with 4 Talos and characters. Tzaangor bomb came in turn 2, charged and killed his Archon WL and left a Ravager on 1 wound after fighting twice. Needless to say they died pretty much instantly after. After that I couldn’t really do a great deal, and fell behind massively on maelstrom due to my card draw going against me initially and not being able to discard due to the maelstrom mission rules (Sealed Orders). I was essentially tabled by turn 4, but, went to 7 turns due to him doing the right thing and chasing objectives and points instead of killing the last cultist squad til late on.

Mission 2 included the Recon mission….
I was playing against 3 Stormsurges, 1 Riptide, 1 fusion commander, pathfinders and 2 marksmen. He got first turn and got everything but his commander on the table and had units on every board edge except my DoW side. My turn 1, I rolled 4 1’s and a 2 so only ended up getting 3 units on the table (he’d shot everything else off the table with his outflanking Stormsurges in his turn). At the end of turn 7, I had 2 Enlightened left alive and he had 1 Stormsurge on 13 wounds left. I lost the game by 6 or 7 points overall, so ended up losing 25-5.

Game 3, played Necrons with Praetorians, Destroyers, a Stalker and a big block of jetbikes. I DMC’d the Tzaangors this game and they failed to kill 3 of the 6 destroyers due to the terrain (my fault here really – couldn’t get enough into combat to make a difference). He then wiped them off the table, even using his Veil of Darkness to get everything but his scarabs into range to kill the Tzaangors. The terminators did a fair amount of work this game, but, due to terrain and their 4” move I couldn’t keep up. Another close game points wise, but, another 25-5 loss. Might have been slightly different if I had got first turn, but, hey ho.

Day 2 and Game 4, I played a Raven Guard army with a Storm Raven. Unfortunately in a Marines v Marines battle, ap -2 and +1 to my saves and VotlW stratagem wins. He did get unlucky in regards to him failing hard to kill the terminators for 2 turns, and putting my Prince down to 1 wounds twice, but, by that point I still had all my other smites, tzaangor blobs etc alive and had full control of the table. 30-0 win after tabling him, but I feel like with a few changes to his list and deployment I’d probably have struggled to get so much control. I also DMC’d the Terminators this game as I wanted to remove his Aggressors and Hellblasters straight away, or as much of them as possible.

Game 5, played vs World Eaters. Same deal as game 5, but DMC’d the Tzaangors. I got first turn so the Tzaangors charged his Beserkers Rhinos killing 1 of them. He wiped the Tzaangors out easily straight after with combat, but it now meant he had to run at all my guns. It did give me another reason to look at picking up a couple of Soulburner Decimators for this army though, as he had 2 of them and they did what they could to try and hold things back, but, it was just too much for them. A second 30-0 win.

All in all, I have no idea where I placed, as the full results haven’t been published outside of the top 3 for the awards, but, as a test event it went reasonably well, especially considering some of the missions combinators we played. There was only 1 game (the first 1) were I didn’t get 24+ points for Maelstrom and Eternal War combined.

Would I take this again? Probably a resounding no, unless CA (supposedly now set for a late November release) changes things for Rubrics and Scarab Terminators. 472 points for 10 Terminators hurts a little, especially when I could instead get another 2 30 man Tzaangor blobs + spare points (if I went in that direction). I still like the idea of the Terminators, but, I think I might go back to a 5-man squad or just remove them for the next test. DEFINITELY going to make sure I find the points to give the Prince wings though. 100% regret not doing that in the first place.
I’m thinking double battalion, essentially replacing the terminators and rubrics with 2 decimators and another exalted sorcerer. My only concern is that I go from pretty good horde clearance (8 -2ap stormbolters and 2 str 5 -3 cannons in the terminator squad) to not really having any mass fire at all.

Once the results are known, I’ll update, but, I think there is only a slim chance of my being in the top half (though there was a fair amount of draws) but I expect to be just outside of the top half.

I’m happy I tested this idea at an event though, and I do think it’ll work significantly better at 2000 points as I can pick up additional threats with only a couple of minor changes.

Nice read. Sorry to hear it went so sideways in those first games. I find scarab occult terms to just not be any good competitively. They just cost too much, for 400 pts you could drop a 20 man squad of regular rubrics and get more milage, not that thats much better in a competitive situation. Still i like running 2 squads of 10 rubrics and a large tzaangor squad for my main force.

10 SOTs is a balsy tournament choice, I applaud you sir. I noticed little reference to your rubrics in the report, did they do much of anything? I'll be honest, when the new CSMs drop I'll be pulling the trigger on a zerker WE batallion straight out of the gate, as I've pretty much lost all faith in TS marines at this point, outside of HQs. I'll still keep a single 5-man squad to trigger Ahriman's +3 cast, and for a support cast, but they achieve so little that I'm benching them in favour of a few party buses of zerky boys. Tried to avoid souping my Sons up til this point, but I think it's time.

I have had some luck with 10 man squads of rubrics in local tournament play, normally going 2-0-1 when i run them. Put them in cover up front and they can hold ground very well.

But they fall for the same issue all of the 4 special god marines have, too expensive for their use in a game heavy in the mass mob mentality.

To be fair, i think i prefer the 10 SOT over the 20 Rubrics, simply because of the 2 missile racks you can get and the baseline 2+ save. The only downside right now is the fact that they are a magnet for 2+ or d3/d6 damage weapons - but, that said, the Rubrics are exactly the same, especially as my list doesn't really give many target options initially, as it's either shoot the Terminators/Tzaangors (whichever is on the table), shoot the Rubrics or shoot the 6 Enlightened. The Cultists are an afterthought and the rest is characters. Another thing the 10 SOT have over the 20 Rubrics is that they can naturally deep strike, or, if i choose to DMC them, they have a massively smaller footprint in terms of hiding them, over the 20 Rubrics. Which also comes into play if you do webway the 20 Rubrics, as getting them all 9" away and in rapid fire of the priority target(s) is a challenge. With the SOT you only have to get 8 in rapid fire as the other 2 are rocking the cannons and missiles.

As for what they did, they were very reasonable vs t3 and t4 models and provided a nice screen for a couple of characters, but, at 220 points i think they only made their points back twice. They did provide a bit of a distraction at times, but i don't really feel that they did much more than what a squad of 20 Cultists could have done, which is a real shame. That said though, a big reason for that was the missions and the armies i played against. Give me power armour, T'au infantry, Orks or hundreds of Cultists/Guardsmen and i'd take the Rubrics every single day of the week (well, potentially another 5 SOT instead).

My last game vs the World Eaters, i went first and so the party rhinos stalled in his deployment zone. Even if he went first and rushed up the table, i would have been extremely confident in just smite killing 1 rhino, putting a few wounds on the other and then popping it with shooting before rapid firing the Zerkers with -2 and then charging with the Tzaangors. But, i'm with you on the whole wanting to keep things pure for now.

One other thing i'd change, is i wouldn't have made Ahriman the warlord (was locked in after list submission). I'd have probably preferred another character getting the +1 to cast.

I can see 3 or 4 screening 5-man squads of Rubrics doing ok IF they can sit in cover, but, i find that they can't really jump from cover to cover that much, and a lot of the time, unless you move the characters forward you could be missing out on 2, or maybe 3 turns of smite damage while they sit back and shoot them off the table.

I'm glad i made the choice to try the ideas out and will certainly try them out again at a more "standard" event, but i think i need to do a bit more planning before making that choice.

Yea, I often run scarab bombs...
They almost never work. unless I manage to triple-buff them (prescience, weaver AND glamour) they are getting swatted without doing nearly enough damage beforehand.

I wish CA would improve them, or the rubrics. because as long as I am unwilling to run goats (I just hate the models to the death, and can't figure a good alternative to enlightened, so I just run daemon horde as support) this army is rather lacking...


Well, my two new xiphons are in the workshop right now, I wonder how they'll pan out in-game

This was the first time I’d run goatmen as well, as, like you, I just didn’t want to include them previously. If I use them again, I think it’d have to be 2 units of 30 and a larger/2 smaller enlightened squads. Just 1 unit of Tzaangors felt distinctly underwhelming in pretty much all 5 games.

I use two squads of 25. They're only good for tying things up until you can get heavy hitters in range. Mulch chaff.

Could someone provide rundown of defensive buffs Magnus can get? Sorry about spying like that

I think he can get either 3++ or -1 to hit(I'm soooo praying for the -1 to hit) but needs to start to have it from get-go so guess spell? Anything other?

Weaver of fates, +1 to invuln - wc6
Glamour of tzeentch, -1 to hit - wc7
Changeling, 9" 6+ fnp bubble
Gaze of fate, reroll a dice before your next psychic turn - wc 5

Ok. Glamour doesn't concern me(hit on unmodified 5+). Weaver is more of annoyance so if I go 2nd I won't one shot the thing with one unit barring some sick dice rolling and 2nd unit will then suffer from glamour.

If I go first(40% odds) there's slight chance I could even one shot the big boy with 1 unit then(rolling two 3 on d3 with 1 CP reroll available and then rest going as average or slightly under. If I get 3+2 it's veery slight over average needed for rest). Good to know. I might be facing him in future. Good to know that while he's certainly tough he's not invincible! And there's still the 80 tzaangor's and rest of flying circuit to worry about...

And for record unit in question is going to be 15 bad moon lootas. d3 shots per guy, reroll 1's to hit, more dakka strategem so hit on 5+ unmodified(so they can be hidded out of LOS and da jumped out and who cares) with extra shots at 5+ with S7, -1, D2 and then do the whole thing again once more so you could end up with 90 shots, rerolling 1's, hit on 5+ period and each hit is extra shot. Something for you to keep in mind if you see bunch of yellow orks with big guns on their shoulders around. It's going to require some luck but average result is going to be 10 wounds and spare vs 3++, 15.5 against 4++.

 grouchoben wrote:
Weaver of fates, +1 to invuln - wc6
Glamour of tzeentch, -1 to hit - wc7
Changeling, 9" 6+ fnp bubble
Gaze of fate, reroll a dice before your next psychic turn - wc 5

You forgot Boon of Mutation, which has 1/3 chance of making him Toughness 8 (or 1/2 if you use a re-roll). It's actually a great defensive buff against armies with lots of S4 / S7 weapons.

 Nym wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Weaver of fates, +1 to invuln - wc6
Glamour of tzeentch, -1 to hit - wc7
Changeling, 9" 6+ fnp bubble
Gaze of fate, reroll a dice before your next psychic turn - wc 5

You forgot Boon of Mutation, which has 1/3 chance of making him Toughness 8 (or 1/2 if you use a re-roll). It's actually a great defensive buff against armies with lots of S4 / S7 weapons.

That would def fit the bill here with S7 lootas. That thing could be tough one to deal with if he goes first...Maybe go for ignore him and blow the army apart(or at least try)

edit: Though isn't your math bit off? 6/36 you get 7 for pick, 3/36 you get +1T for 9/36 which is 1/4. Also command reroll is reroll one dice so you can only reroll one of the 2 dice(and not sure would opponent risk rerolling both anyway losing Magnus 1/18 times!). Or does Magnus have some special bonus for the spell?

tneva82 wrote:
edit: Though isn't your math bit off?

I'm affraid my maths are ok, it's my memory that's going downhill... It's Boon of Change I was talking about.

So I've heard two things I am not quite understanding about tsons play!

First is that tsons can smite more effectively than other armies; is this just because of the 6" bonus distance or do they somehow ignore the smite penalty?

Also, everyone seems to love tsons defilers, anything that makes them better than normal CSM ones?

drakerocket wrote:
So I've heard two things I am not quite understanding about tsons play!

First is that tsons can smite more effectively than other armies; is this just because of the 6" bonus distance or do they somehow ignore the smite penalty?

Also, everyone seems to love tsons defilers, anything that makes them better than normal CSM ones?

Check the FAQ's, Thousand Sons (as well as Grey Knights) have a specific exemption to Psychic Focus that allows them to ignore the usual stacking difficulty of smite.

I'm not that keen on TSons defilers myself, but the reason people tend to hype them up is because you get both the CSM (Daemonforge) and the Chaos Daemons (Flickering Flames) buffs that can be applied to it in one faction. It's definitely better than anyone else's defiler but IME it's still not an effective unit and I'd rather put those buffs on something that stands on its own.

Saw someone on discord getting angry that someone would dare take rubrics instead of tzaangors because apparently they think rubrics are completely useless. Was mildly amusing.

Rubrics are expensive and not point efficient, same as scarab occult terms. However that doesn't make them not useful, and if played right they can be a serious pain in the ass to deal with. They have a different job than tzaangors, plop 10 rubrics in cover on an objective and they become very hard to remove to small arms fire. Tzaangors would be easy to deal with for that job, but then again thats not their job. Tzaangors are shock troopers and charecter hunters.

Had a game at a tournament recently where my opponent used that damn assassin that nulls psycic powers and can only be hit on a 6. He started him right in the middle of the board for optimal annoyance. So i warp timed my tzaangors to him and charged, getting 13 into cc. He got wiped out easy because even though i hit on 6's tzaangors reroll failed hits vs chrs. Between that and the strat to fight twice buh bye assassin. Rubrics couldn't do that.

So its all about battlefield rolls and what you want to use them for.

They're night and day, right? Viable vs bleeding-edge competitive. Rubrics have a few things they can do well, and they fill a troop slot. Tzaangors are a terror and can ruin someone's day.

Yep, but rubrics can also scare an opponent into making mistakes. Just played a 2500 pt game (wanted to test a few things out for a tournament next week) and i used 50 rubrics in the list. When i placed them down as my main "area control" squad my opponent (playing orks) got real worried, kept saying "50 rubrics.... jesus..... how am i supposed to deal with all that... damn.... i hate rubrics...."

Ended up winning game, lost 30 of the 50 throughout the game, but he didnt have much left at the end and nothing left that could get close and hurt the rubrics.

Large squads make people nervous. I could see running 2 squads of 20 rubrics and 2 squads of 30 tzaangors as a troops on the ground list. Warptime can help keep the rubrics moving and dmc can put a squad of tzaangors into cc range real quick.

433pts buys you an awful lot of shiny stuff though, instead of 20 rubrics...

A Rubrick against eldar will eat either jinx or doom shots (you'll deny one of them, in all likelihood).

Against DE Dizzies will just humiliate them.

Against imperium plasma, avenger gatlings, tapdancing, RFBCs etc will all eat them to breakfast.

Against Tau their HBC riptides will be happy to see them.

There are so many lists that would be really happy to see nearly 1/4 of their opponent's points locked up in one squad of Rubrics, is all.

I agree with a lot of the points here – both negative and positive in favour of things like Rubric squads.

If you plan on using a big squad of 20 Rubric, then, based off my experience I’d only run 1 squad of them total. Yes, they can be a massive pain to deal with for a lot of people, but they also have a few issues with them.
1. They are slow. Yes, you can DMC them or Webway them, but, after that, on terrain heavy tables they often find themselves out of position after the initial strike. Unfortunately, it all put forces you into taking Warptime, which I’ve found recently, can be more of a hinderance at times. Webway also has the additional impact of it forcing you to wait til turn 2 before you can do anything.
2. Any form of AP hurts them, 1 damage weapon or not. At the end of the day, they are a 1W, T4 model that sometimes gets a 2+ save outside of cover (likely won’t be getting it at all for a 20-man squad). The moment AP -1 comes into play though, they die just like any other marine, which is unfortunately, far too quickly.
3. They are a small-mid ranged unit, with fantastic bolters, but, hurt the moment they get tagged in combat. Sure, they can tarpit a unit, but, often it can feel like they are the unit being tarpitted themselves.


There are a few bonuses over spamming Tzaangors though.
1. In most instances, a 30-man Tzaangor unit goes in, kills what it charges and then generally dies in your opponent’s next turn. A couple of Rubric squads in support of said bomb, really goes a long way to giving you some additional support after the 1st charge.
2. They can be reasonably good screens for a character or 2 (not talking points effective etc etc etc here). I’ve often found that the amount of firepower an opponent needs to dedicate to killing a 10-man Rubric screen is far far greater than what they need to remove Cultists or Tzaangors. Also, there are often “more important” units on the table that require that firepower as well, giving you a slight advantage in regards to forcing your opponent’s target priority.
3. I still maintain that 10 SOT is worth way more than 20 Rubrics though. The deep strike alone really helps them, but, they are even slower than the Rubrics and can quickly become out of position against fast armies.
At the end of the day, there are a lot of counters out there in a tournament setting to Rubric and SOT units, but, when they have the ability to strike first (especially the SOT), they have the ability to drastically change a game by allowing you to force your opponent’s hand, at least for a couple of turns.

I'm slightly biased by having shifted to Deathwatch as my primary army when their codex dropped.

I'm very used to SIA stormbolter marines getting tasty rerolls and 3++ saves, twice the firepower of a Rubric, with two/three times the CC attacks as Rubrics, for the same price. Their ammo can mimic warpfire, or they can switch to wounding DPs, Guilly, Riptides on 2s, as the occasion arises.

And these guys aren't even a very competitive choice; they just cost too much. They outclass Rubrics in every way, at the same price point, are infinitely more flexible in loadout, can teleport around the place, withdraw from cc and still shoot, be immune to morale: you name it, you can build it. But they never see top table play, and I'd never take more than 10, maybe 15, in a list.

My point being Rubrics are wayyy off killteams in terms of efficiency, meaning they're wayyy off being competitive, let alone top-table material. (Unlike Tzaangors)

Azuza001 wrote:
Yep, but rubrics can also scare an opponent into making mistakes. Just played a 2500 pt game (wanted to test a few things out for a tournament next week) and i used 50 rubrics in the list. When i placed them down as my main "area control" squad my opponent (playing orks) got real worried, kept saying "50 rubrics.... jesus..... how am i supposed to deal with all that... damn.... i hate rubrics...."

Ended up winning game, lost 30 of the 50 throughout the game, but he didnt have much left at the end and nothing left that could get close and hurt the rubrics.

Large squads make people nervous. I could see running 2 squads of 20 rubrics and 2 squads of 30 tzaangors as a troops on the ground list. Warptime can help keep the rubrics moving and dmc can put a squad of tzaangors into cc range real quick.

Orks are a specific case of an army that relies heavily on AP0 D1 whackin' sticks to do the heavy lifting. Rubrics are a lot better if you can assume they have a 2+ save more often than not. Problem is there aren't very many armies you can expect that from.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
My current understanding is that you can use the DMC on turn one, but you can't use the DMC and warptime. Which means that the DMC both does and does not work like coming from reserves. It is all very confusing.

Can you explain the rules here? Played in a tournament yesterday against TSons who insisted that the most recent FAQ changed some wording so that DMC-Warptime works on the same unit.

Not sure what your opponent is getting that from. None of the tactical reserves changes in the most recent FAQ addressed the relationship between the DMC and warptime.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Not sure what your opponent is getting that from. None of the tactical reserves changes in the most recent FAQ addressed the relationship between the DMC and warptime.

Can you state using rules why this is an illegal combo?
That way I can explain it if it comes up again.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
My current understanding is that you can use the DMC on turn one, but you can't use the DMC and warptime. Which means that the DMC both does and does not work like coming from reserves. It is all very confusing.

is simple you can use dmc turn1 to teleport EVERYWHERE the unit, then you just CANT warptime is same turn doesn't seem so confusing, is what they wanted to avoid easy 1st turn charges.

The guy is dead wrong. Here's the relevant passages from the FAQ:

1
Q: If a unit uses a rule that removes them from the battlefield and then sets them up again, such as the Teleport Homer ability or the Gate of Infinity psychic power, does that unit count as having moved for the purposes of moving and firing Heavy weapons?
A: Yes. Treat such units as if they are arriving on the
battlefield as reinforcements.
...
2
Q: Can such a unit move or Advance for any other reason e.g... because of a psychic power such as Warptime from the Dark Hereticus discipline[?]
A: No.

... DMC clearly falls under the range of abilities referred to in 1, and 2 clearly forbids further movement that turn for units that are effected by such powers.