Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I thought it was always scheduled for the 18th?

Probably a good change. If they keep pushing out content like they have we're going to have more times where a Star Wars and Marvel show overlaps. Might as well give them their own days.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I thought it was always scheduled for the 18th?

Nope, was originally the 17th, as I type if you google it, it still says that

Ah fair enough

Probably to stop it and Andor releasing on the same day.

And they pushed Andor back to September.

They saw your Tatooine suggestion and are going back to re-shoot the whole thing!

Since this seems to be the general MCU thread, it looks like Patton Oswalt let something slip while making an appearance on The Today Show. From CBR.com...

'Eternals 2: Patton Oswalt Seemingly Announces the Marvel Sequel'

 Lance845 wrote:
Avengers Earths Mightiest Heroes is a great show that covers a lot of really great storylines and has the best theme song.

Big thanks for bringing this to my attention!

This is the best Marvel stuff that I've seen since the first Iron Man film or the 90s X-Men/Spiderman shows.

"Skip Intro"? No thanks, I'm good with this...

Finally got around to finishing Ms. Marvel. I liked Kamala's family and friends way more than Kamala. The story was not well developed. The directing and visual style was fun.

I just finished Hawkeye and.... I can see why they did not want to make this into a movie as it would have needed a lot more..... something.

It was passable. Not bad, and some good ideas and themes, but not great either. Yelena kind of steals the show.

I think of the MCU shows its one that feels the most like it was always intended to be a show outside of WandaVision.

 Easy E wrote:
I just finished Hawkeye and.... I can see why they did not want to make this into a movie as it would have needed a lot more..... something.

Plot?

 Easy E wrote:
I just finished Hawkeye and.... I can see why they did not want to make this into a movie as it would have needed a lot more..... something.

It was passable. Not bad, and some good ideas and themes, but not great either. Yelena kind of steals the show.

I think it would've been much better as a movie. From a meta perspective, its a pretty simple A->B (clean up old sins and pass the torch), but the extra runtime just gave them multiple chances to lose the threads and faff about with 'twists' and 'reveals' and dumb sideplots that don't go anywhere or do anything.

In general, they seem really unsure about what to do with this format, and how to utilize it. Most of the time they end up with a standard 'like fights like' end battle anyway and the whole thing feels like a hollow, rushed prequel to what they really wanted to do in season 2 (or a movie).

I'm actually vaguely hoping she-hulk goes for a more episodic approach, just to try something different. And I generally dislike episodic television.
But I definitely don't want origin story->angst->punchout with the Abomination.

I dunno. Hawkeye really fits into “we beat Thanos, but that’s just the start”.

The whole thing was pointing out that in a post-snap world, Clint had nothing left to lose, and so went crazy ape bonkers with drills and violence, going full on Punisher.

Then….un-snapping. Not only is the world snapped out of it, but so was Clint. The reason Kate gets in so deep, so fast, isn’t because she’s a vigilante, but because everyone now thinks she is Ronin, the crazy ape bonkers with drills and violence vigilante. And so everyone is gunning for her.

Sure Kate is pretty handy in a fight. But, she lacks Clint’s espionage skills to, y’know….help avoid anyone coming after her.

Whether or not that could’ve been done as a movie isn’t all that important, but it’s still a tale that needed telling.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I dunno. Hawkeye really fits into “we beat Thanos, but that’s just the start”.

The whole thing was pointing out that in a post-snap world, Clint had nothing left to lose, and so went crazy ape bonkers with drills and violence, going full on Punisher.

Then….un-snapping. Not only is the world snapped out of it, but so was Clint. The reason Kate gets in so deep, so fast, isn’t because she’s a vigilante, but because everyone now thinks she is Ronin, the crazy ape bonkers with drills and violence vigilante. And so everyone is gunning for her.

Sure Kate is pretty handy in a fight. But, she lacks Clint’s espionage skills to, y’know….help avoid anyone coming after her.

Whether or not that could’ve been done as a movie isn’t all that important, but it’s still a tale that needed telling.

I don't agree. The 'protege you didn't know you had (because you didn't have one) needs training' isn't really a story that needs to be told.
Superhero proteges get training, one way or the other. You don't need to spend 3+ hours establishing that they need it.

Or that Clint really, really, really, really wants to retire. He can just do that, without the actor looking like he just wants to cash in his rent check and get the hell out.

Except because Kate ends up being identified as Ronin, Clint can’t retire. That’s no longer an option until, one way or another, the heat is off Kate.

She shouldn’t suffer for Clint’s sins.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Except because Kate ends up being identified as Ronin, Clint can’t retire. That’s no longer an option until, one way or another, the heat is off Kate.

She shouldn’t suffer for Clint’s sins.

Right... But... eh. That's not a 'consequence of a post-snap world.' Or a defining trait of Kate vs Clint, or their relative espionage skills. Or a story that NEEDED telling. Or something related to the film vs short series format.
That's just... what the producers decided to film. The elevator pitch summary.
So... sure. But also...?

It is a consequence of the post-snap world though.

Clint as Ronin went full on Punished. He very likely cared not one jot if he lived or died - though I don’t think he was suicidal as such.

The set up is largely covered in End Game. His justification is that good people got snapped, whilst bad people lived on. He was about redressing that balance. And he was brutal about it because he’d lost all hope. And with his family gone, the restraint of Fear of Retribution was also gone. It no longer mattered if he was KIA, because there was no-one for the bad guys to seek revenge against. At least….no-one that was a soft target/an advisable target.

Then it’s all undone. Clint helps it to be undone. He saved the world. He saved his family. He saved his own sanity.

But some damn fool kid wears the Costume, and paints a colossal target on herself. Clint isn’t, and has never been, the sort to take advantage of that. Because the very reasons he showed a lack of restraint as Ronin? That doesn’t apply to Kate. If she’s taken down, her identity is revealed and whatever friends and family she has are then in mortal peril.

So it absolutely was a tale worth telling, as it’s Clint’s own redemption.

OK, now.

You think its important to tell Clint's 'redemption' story. Fine.

I just couldn't figure out why you felt the need to step by step your way through what happens in the series before you just said that.

Because if I’m honest, I often get the impression you’ve not actually watched the stuff.

And believe, it’s not “I think”. Clint’s redemption arc is a story worth telling, hence….they told it.

It’s also a story of the impact The Avengers had. Kate sees Hawkeye in action during the Battle of New York, when he saves her from the Chittaur Chariot. That’s why she asks her Mum for a bow. That’s why the opening titles are a stylised montage of Kate learning fencing, archery and gymnastics. Hawkeye inspired her.

This show charts her learning there’s more to heroics than being a hero. You’re gonna tread on powerful toes. Great Power, Great Responsiblity. Hell even the “it’s meant to be” cringe glimpse of the musical ties into that theme. The public going mental for the results, but glossing over the personal costs.

Yes I have just put it on my Telly.

What the hell is a story that needed telling? I don't know, but it seems like every single movie and show that has ever been produced has been a show that was elevator pitched as an interesting story to tell. Not one that needed to be told.

Kate wasn't learning skills. Kate had a ton of skills. As revealed in episode 1 open credit montage. What Kate needed was experience.

The show we got was Kate meeting her hero and realizing it isn't all fun and games with experience. It was Clint dealing with his grief. Trying to feel like he deserved the life he was given when his best friend killed herself for him, and trying to make sure nobody else had to pay for his past.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Because if I’m honest, I often get the impression you’ve not actually watched the stuff.

Nicely condescending, but irrelevant. In keeping with your reactions whenever someone disagrees with you, however. (though you haven't demanded people stop talking about it, which is refreshing)

And believe, it’s not “I think”. Clint’s redemption arc is a story worth telling, hence….they told it.

No, its definitely 'you think.'
Redemption stories in general suck random goat feces. Clint's in particular? Nonsense. He murder-death-killed a bunch of gang members, who worked for the Big Man himself. They weren't innocents
Now, Clint Barton, Agent of SHIELD (Hydra)? He probably did murder innocents. Strange how that doesn't need redemption (though admittedly that would make for a terrible MCU and repeat DC's worst mistakes)

It’s also a story of the impact The Avengers had. Kate sees Hawkeye in action during the Battle of New York, when he saves her from the Chittaur Chariot. That’s why she asks her Mum for a bow. That’s why the opening titles are a stylised montage of Kate learning fencing, archery and gymnastics. Hawkeye inspired her.

This show charts her learning there’s more to heroics than being a hero. You’re gonna tread on powerful toes. Great Power, Great Responsiblity. Hell even the “it’s meant to be” cringe glimpse of the musical ties into that theme. The public going mental for the results, but glossing over the personal costs.

Yes I have just put it on my Telly.

Yeah, I can tell. You're just back to reciting what's on the screen again, with no analysis., just random Comic Catchphrases

Not to mention him being clearly uncomfortable with the adulation. The dude is even awkward about receiving a complementary meal, as a thank you for his part in saving New York.


Clint and Natasha remain the most interesting Avengers because they’re just….people. Highly skilled, sure. But people all the same. And being a family man, Clint is easy to relate to, even for someone as childphobic as I.

We can also extrapolate other things likely weighing on his mind. He was a member of S.H.I.E.L.D. for years before he became an Avenger. He went from the shadows to the limelight when Loki attacked. He was never trained for Avengers level threats. Nobody was or arguably could’ve been.

If anyone knows just how shockingly underprepared for the consequences Kate would be? It’s Clint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss, I’m sorry but your media literacy is awful.

And no, actually watching something you’re criticising tends to….y’know….help. Otherwise you’re just regurgitating clickbait opinions from others, and are singularly unprepared when folk who have actually watched it point out misconceptions, errors and outright “what are you on abouts” in what you claim.

If you don’t want to watch something? No worries. If you watch something and don’t like it? No biggie. I myself can’t stand many shows (Rick & Morty, The Witcher, Carnival Row, Friends, Big Bang Theory, Family Guy to name but a few) but I have at least tried to watch them. Indeed, it’s the trying to watch them that means I know I don’t like them. And there are equally shows I’ve not seen, because I just don’t think they’re my bag - but I don’t then pretend to have seen them to rag on them on the internet.

Why don’t I enjoy the shows I listed? The ones I’ve actually tried watching?

Rick & Morty. Not half as clever as it thinks it is. Animation is off putting. The first episode seems to be 50% Rick belching and Morty fretting.

The Witcher. It’s the sodding Bard. I know he’s meant to be annoying. But to me he’s just obnoxious and tension shattering.

Carnival Row. I’m very funny and particular about accents. Carla Deleveign can’t do an Irish accent. None of the other Fae seem to have an Irish accent either. So….why bother in the first place? It’s distracting and irritating.

Friends. It’s just…..eurgh. Not a fan of aired laughter, whether filmed live in front of a studio audience or canned. I don’t need anyone to tell me when something is meant to be funny.

Big Bang Theory. Largely see above, plus also relies on excessively lazy tropes, including some which are really quite racist.

Family Guy. No coherent stories. Too much filler. Too much self reference and indeed self reverence.

Wait. Just realised that list is entirely US shows, which makes me seem a culture snob. For my next trick, I’ll poo on U.K. shows.

The Mighty Boosh. Trying to be Reeves & Mortimeresque non-sequitur surrealism. Unfortunately that tosser with the mullet will insist on his “pause for applause” moments. There’s a fine line between surrealism and random gibberish. They’re far, far over that line.

Love Island. I have to bite my tongue on this one at work, as others seem to enjoy it well enough. But it’s just utterly vacuous people we’re repeatedly told are attractive being awful, awful people.

Britains Got Talent. Or indeed, seemingly and evidentially not.

The Jeremy Kyle Show and it’s ilk. In Victorian Times, we had freakshows. Nothing really changed but the venue in the 21st Century.

Eastenders. A long running soap based in abject human misery. When it inevitably ends, whenever that might be, my only hope is that Albert Square is revealed to have been Purgatory all along, it’s inhabitants damned souls unable to move on until they learn some sort of lesson. Or get run over outside The Queen Vic by a very slowly moving car on Christmas Day.

Cara Delevigne hasn't show any noteworthy acting ability in anything I've seen. Maybe Paper Towns had something. I don't know why she was being forced there for a couple of years, but she was just sort of there anytime she was on screen.

Ms. Marvel had more screen presence in the first episode.

@ Doc, totally with you on East Enders, misery pron of the most wretched kind, and as for Love Island, I'm lead to understand there is a whole industry catering to growed up cuddles without the editors trying to forge a narrative from pure idiots, id suspect its "semi scripted" but that would need at least the cast to be able to read above a Meg and Mog level

But back to Marvel, was indifferent to She Hulk, but then as if but magic Matt appeared so just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in...

And a bit curious as to how Reborn will work if is based on mad Frank's run, its not exactly D+ friendly, then again Moon Knight had its moments

I assumed "also a lawyer" would be involved the moment we learned Charlie Cox was back on the payroll

I think Born Again is 18 episodes because it's meant to cover similar ground but now in the MCU as the Netflix shows. I don't mean it's going to tell the exact same story. I mean that Kingpin doesn't know who Matt is. Bullseye hasn't been introduced. The Hand could show up but this time be doing something that isn't dumb as feth. Born Again is our reintroduction into the character/s setting the stage for what to expect from DD moving forward.

Lets not forget that Matt is publicly dead in S3 of DD, and yet he is Spidermans lawyer. So they just cannot take place in the same universe.

Somewhere in there the Snap happens, and that can have all sorts of implications for everyone, theoretically dead at the time or not.

I quit all the Netflix Marvel shows 2 episodes into Defenders. Is Daredevil S3 worth watching? Do I need to subject myself to the rest of the Defenders episodes before I watch Daredevil S3?