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I getting started to WFB again and see some very high powered magic armies like vampires or daemons spamming a lot of power dice (Lizardmen are also able to do that i think), so in conclusion, armies without so much magic offense are at least trying to build up a decent magic defense (8+ DD + Scroll, correct me if I'm wrong).

Has anyone of you or your gaming buddies tried to simply ditch all the magic defense, work with the two dispel dice and call it done? The whole magic defense stuff just keeps sucking away points for more troops. And if it evens out in the end where is the big deal about that?
So could anyone enlighten me please?

Greets
Schepp himself

The problem is if you do that, you will lose to some of those super-magic builds.

Most specifically Vampires and to a lesser extent Tomb Kings. Tzeench Demons are pretty bad, but some armies can get through that and hit them where it hurts. Though to be honest I'd say 90% of the lists out there will struggle with armies that can pump out that many Magic Missiles per turn.

But yes, for some armies their magic isn't all that great and just eschewing it in favor of more fighty stuff is preferable.

Ok, but won't a medicore magic defense be almost as screwed against those builds as a build with no magic defense whatsoever?

Or does a scroll caddy (LVL 1, with two scrolls) "get back his costs" against almost all magic heavier armies?

I mean if some lists pump out 15+ PD a turn, my two scrolls + 3 DD won't cut it anyway, so why not just save it?

And you can laugh at the armies with 8+DD when you field an army without any magic, all their points invested in defense wasted...

Or is this some kind of meta-thing?

Greets
Schepp himself

EDIT: Or just hope for the misspell...

It depends, sometimes you can build magic defense that shuts down some lists completely. I know my Ogres can get shut down by O&G's simply because the player can take a ton of Magic Defense (Steal 1 PD + 5DD = 6DD, 3-4 Scrolls, and I'm down one PD) and without my Magic Support, Ogres don't work.

However, if all you can manage is just 3DD and 2 Scrolls, you're probably screwed, which is why you want to look for other ways to beef up the defense with a minimal amount of points (items that give you more DD, Spell Destroyers, etc).

As it's going, less and less armies are able to take the kind of Magic Defense to put up with VC and Tzeench Demons. But you can shut down most "magic" lists that take a Level 4 and a Level 2 for the "critical turn" that you need to get in there and start killing.

Still, for armies like Dark Elves that really can't put out serious Magic Defense, I'm in favor of somewhat eschewing it or using other means of defense (Ring of Hotek) to shut them down. Heck one of the reasons I love Demons so much is because you can get cheap DD (and PD) from Core and you get the Standard of Sundering which will screw most magic lists over.

I've certainly been to tournaments where I didn't play a single foe with serious offensive magic. Between Dwarves, Khornate units, Brettonians and just lists that are conventional and bring their scroll caddies you can go a whole tournament without running into an overpowering magic list.

40kenthusiast wrote:I've certainly been to tournaments where I didn't play a single foe with serious offensive magic. Between Dwarves, Khornate units, Brettonians and just lists that are conventional and bring their scroll caddies you can go a whole tournament without running into an overpowering magic list.

Oh you certainly can run through tournaments where you will have "wasted" Magic Defense, but then you're relying on the luck of the draw to get you through. I've seen plenty of tournaments won and lost by people because they just got "the wrong draw" for a matchup their list couldn't handle and they were taken out of the running for the event. If you run with little to no magic defense, then that means that instead of the normal amount of spells a Magic Heavy army can expect to get off, they get just about everything, with even more safety than normal.

Hell one of my games at the Colonial where I was running 3 Butcher Ogres I drew against a LM player who just used Mark of Tepok on his Characters to get DD, no scrolls, and I think he had like 5 or so DD. I quickly overwhelmed his defense, got my spells off, and it's a good part of what won me the game.

In the current environment, you can eschew magic defense and buy as much combat stuff as you want, but if you draw up against a well built VC army, you're screwed.

Word. VB speaks it.

Well, I'm of the 'if you can't do it well, then don't do it', school of thought. I've played against VC armies with no Wizards. Same against Lizardmen. Yes the magic hurt, but a scroll caddie would've only taken away units I needed. I even took the same army (Dark elves with 2 Manticores & 2 Hydras, and lots of Corsairs) and added a scroll caddie and wished I'd kept the Corsairs I had to drop to take her.

Hell, I've just played a couple of games against 2 different Orc & Goblin players with my Daemons and even though I had extra dispel dice, they both rolled a ton of double sixes (at least one every turn). I just out fought them, and used better tactics.

For me, either you go all out with magic (my current Daemon list has 6 casting levels at 1300 points; its for a campaign) or you skip it and play better. Uber magic armies can't really be matched unless you do the same.

I'm not even sure how I'd take on the new Vampires Counts right now. I've always had a hard time with them even with my magic heavy Lizardmen. Hell, the Vamps are so good I'd play them for the first time if we didn't have a Vamp player in out group.

Try some games with and with out wizards and see which one suites you best.

-Korthu

While you're right that trying to pump out a couple extra DD isn't going to accomplish a whole lot against a big magic list, a couple dispel scrolls on a scroll caddy may not be a waste. There may just be those one or two spells that absolutely need to be stopped the first turn or two. I've been playing a magic-heavy Tzeentch army for a little while now, and I've seen that while they can toss out a ton of magic, there're typically only a couple of must-counter spells. Sure, you may just have to eat the magic missiles, but on the other hand, shutting down the Pit of Shades that they just threw at your giant block of Dwarves, or stopping the Beast Cowers that would shut down your 400 pt mounted unit, or stopping the Cleansing Flare that's about to hit every one of your units, is a huge help. Even a couple dispel scrolls can help keep a heavy magic list from getting off at least one nasty spell you absolutely don't want cast.

You're right on all points. I have the worst dice luck. I also just hate scroll caddies, I don't like taking things I consider a waste 'just in case'. If my wizard isn't going to contribute with his magic, I don't want him just for the dispell scrolls. And everybody takes scroll caddies. We even have an offical name for it. But thats just me. -K.

Keep in mind also that sometimes it's only about holding out long enough. To get into CC for example. With minimal magic defense, a mid or high magic army could keep you in a bad spot by pounding weak units, freezing up key units, etc. If you can stop that for a round or two, that is often enough to get into the combats or positions you need. OTOH, if you can't stop the VC from Dansing into your flank 2nd turn, it could easily swing the other way.

Depending on your army a lot of the time you can suck up the spell effects, horde armies can afford to let 2d6 attack magic missile spells through most of the time.

The spells to watch out for with horde are spells that effect the whole unit, either as an attack (e.g Flames of the Phoenix) or by immobilising or causing leadership tests.

Other armies just cannot take the basic spells.

What army do you play?

If you feel bad just scroll caddying, invest in a school of magic that doesn't necessitate enemy contact and run a support Wiz. Warlock engineers aren't much for the dice pool, but they can make up their points worth easily with 2d6 s5 missiles. Sticking them in units makes them hard to shoot back. The two-rank skaven list is a horde and a magic-fry-fest in one go.

Oh, and once you're in Grey Seer territory, you're automatically a Scary Magic Army.

you can use the points that you save to buy more troops to sacrifice

It also depend on the army that you use, i use my ogers with no magic offence and they work fine about 70% wins then i use my tomb kings who by there nature have to have a load of magic so i use that but to take a caddie on the off chance i encounter a magic army is a waste, i either go all out magic offence/defence or nothing but the 2 dd i get automatically, it's a choice each player must make in an all comers list.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:What army do you play?
...

Oh, and once you're in Grey Seer territory, you're automatically a Scary Magic Army.

I play High Elves and Brets, I was refering to O&G for the tactics, my local orc player is not bothered how many magic missile spells you have to cast against his gobbo horde. For him a small unit is 40 gobbos, I can cast magic missiles at it all day and he his army will not be stopped. Though Skaven would definately count or this tactic. Though my local Skaven player is anything but magic light.

By and large for a non horde player it is best to take a full wizard or two.

If you take a scroll caddy you can take a level 2 wizard instead. With so many 'scroll caddy' lists around the level 2 scroll caddy can actually have some offensive use.

If you dont want lots of wizards in your army, it is not usually to put points into other characters, but to put points into units. Therefore more often than not the Lord choice is free also. Take advantage of this by making your "scroll caddy" a level 3 wizard lord.

You get a general with the same Leadership as a hero, not the best, but more than adequate for a general in a cut down list, and likely the same as what you were planning. Two or three dispel scrolls with an army boosting trinket on the side, four dispel dice, five power dice and three spells.

Normally this will be enough for a one character army, you dont even have to fill his magic item quota out. So he will cost the basic Wizard lord cost, approx 80-100pts of magic items. Roughly 300pts all told.

You could easily spend half that justy for a scroll caddy and have to buy a general seperate, and still not be able to risk the general in combat. Here instead we get a useful leader, a scroll caddy and after all that a wizard capable of punishing cheap scroll caddy lists in the second half of the game.

You cannot do this with some armies. Tomb Kings and Brets prohibit it, Dwarfs dont apply, and Vampire Counts cannot viably play this way. Other armies are so cheap that you can always afford your character allowance. It is a possible build for Empire though, and a very tempting way to build a Chaos Dwarf or Elf army.

sirisaacnuton wrote: I've seen that while [Tzeentch] can toss out a ton of magic, there're typically only a couple of must-counter spells.

QFT. Most of the "scary" magic armies are like that. There are some spells that you simply must stop, either because they are devastatingly powerful, or because the tactical situation is such that you simply can't afford to have that particular effect happen at that moment. A good player with even decent magic will just abuse you if you don't have any defense at all.

The problem with 5th ed was that it was herohammer, 7th ed has turned into magichammer, even with the more dangerous miscast table.

The problem I see is that when going through the debacle that is GW playtesting they take well rounded lists that are magic light, so when some drop kick goes magic heavy it essentially breaks the way the game is meant to be played (in the view of the designers)

Standard of sundering is so broken it should be put in the toilet.

After playing lizardmen with a slaan since the start of the year I'm taking slayer cult to the tourney this weekend.

4 dispel dice, a 6 mobile 6 inch bubbles of MR 1 (doomseekers) and a whole hell of alot of T4 MSUs....

i played a 1000 point game a day or two ago against HE and made the mistake of not bringing any magic users or units that give extra dispel die. never again will i make that mistake. flames of the phoenix went off and my saurus block (18 strong) lost all but the general and the standard after two turns. to say the least i was upset. magic is way too good to ignore

It's not that magic is too good (you usually pay more for it than equivalent shooting, for example), it's that magic isn't really balanced. In low amounts it's worthless, in large amounts it's game breaking. So players who want effective magic need to load up. It creates a very rock-paper-scissors environment that is very unhealthy design wise.

One way they could fix magic is stop with the whole "it's really good but very risky approach" because there are always ways to circumvent the risky part (redundancy, special rules, etc.). The all or nothing approach is one of the design flaws of WHFB. One way would be to make magic work better at support generally (providing LD boosts, re-rolls, stat bouses, etc.) without allowing overstacking (limit models/units to 1 friendly and 1 enemy spell active on them at one time). Also, I really like the Ogre approach of allowing multiple castings, but increasing difficulty with successive castings. That helps to make spamming certain spells far less desirable.

However, at the end of the day, it is up to players to try to have fun. Gaming is a cooperative experience, after all. Of course tournies are a little different...

I have a Southern Civil War themed Empire army and my ONLY magic defense is the two dispel dice for the army.

I can easily say that no magic defense has hurt, especially against demons, but the 11 Hochland Rifle's definitely make sure casters do not stay round that long.

Even in my "normal" armies that are fully magic heavy I do not take dispel scrolls. I have always liked having items that can help throughout the game, not just once. Unfortunately in the current edition if you don't have at least a reasonable magic defense you have to expect to lose troops, if not total whole units.

im my gaming club most people don't field magic, my basic lvl 2 wizard is enough to stop all the dangourous spells, and with nearly a 80 models to throw away in a 1000 point game alone i'm not bothered by the weak magic missles.

I play my nurgle army completely defenseless to magic. Just to basic two that I get is all that I use. I dont know about with other armies, but for now, with chaos it soaks up way to many points to make a sorcerer. I just head straight for the opposition and try to get stuck in. I think any army is going to struggle against magic heavy armies. I mean, thats what they do, thats what theyre good at. Ive won a few and ive lost a few. The one army that I really have problems with is Tomb Kings. But that army is built off of magic. Otherwise, most of my games tend to be close where the winner is decided late in the game.

My two coppers....

I've done it before with my Dark Elf Monster List.

It's touch and go really. Haven't wheeled it out against the new, apparently broken armies, as nobody round here is that beardy....

Having said that, if you plan on going all fighty, look at your items for other things that can aid you. Like the Dark Elf Miscast-a-rama Item. Thats always good for a laugh.

As a Daemon player through several editions and rules revamps of my army, I can tell you that is absolutely necessary to have a strong magic defense.

I remember the one game when I played against someone that had the philosophy of channeling the points for magic defense back into his army to offset losses from the magic phase.

I played Daemonic Legion with Belakor (I can feel a flame fest incoming, but I was actually asked to play him when people saw what an Undivided DP was capable of). He played a Wood Elf list that was highly mobile with lots of fast cav, archers, and skirmishers. One non-irresistable cast of Fog of Death and literally half of his army was fleeing off of the table. My current Daemon army has 11 PD and multiple bound spells and I'm not even going as magic heavy as I could.

Many of the magic heavy armies out there don't need to have every spell dispelled to shut them down, just the odd one or two that swings the game. Scroll caddies are a convention in the gaming world because they are extremely useful.

As a standard, I allways bring two skink priests at level 2, one has two scrolls, and the other has some assorted goodies. If I go to tourneys I sometimes take the uberslann of magical dOOm, along with those two, and then indeed, magic is a painful thing...

On a note of personal opinion, I have a gripe against daemons, as they are quite a bit too potent to my liking... Played a full slaanesh list once (the softer variants it seems), and I barely pulled through by the skin of my teeth and some kick-booty rolling...

back on topic: some magic defense will never harm you, and its allways a blast to see your willy vanilly level 1 pull of a nice spell

I've gone to exactly 1 tournament without magic defense, and I got first but then again none of my opponents brought magic either.... But there have been many games and tournaments that I have seen decided by 1 dispel scorll (or the lack thereof). Sometimes one spell can make or break a game and usually its not a blasting spell. Movement spells come to mind as do spells like Beast Cowers, and even in games with only 2-4 lvls of magic, sometime that lvl 2 mage can get lucky and get that 11+ spell off in the last turn.

At the end of the day a scroll caddie is like car insurance. Alot of the time your not going to need it and in fact you can thing of other things you could do with that money, but when you really need it, you'd better have it.

I have been running my orcs without a wizard for a while. I take the standard that lets me add rank bonus to dispel pool on a big orc unit, and hope for the best.
I have to say, it hasn't been working too great for me against some armies. I played a magic heavy empire army, and after my blasted and burned orcs had made it across, the bugger stole my statline with van horstman's thingy and killed me in a challenge.

My beasts never go to war without their shaman, but that's mostly because I see him as vital to my army background. He's got bear's anger from the staff, and then I take steed of shadows from lore of darkness to make a shaman missile, or beef up a foe render to scary levels for a challenge against a hero.
Defense wise I mostly try and mug the enemy mages as early on as possible while saving my dispel for anyrthing that could force a ld check.
I haven't played new VCs or Daemons yet, but watching the games I think I'd likely get paddled with both builds.

I think the scroll caddy is a necessity if you aren't magic heavy. I wish I hadn't taken him when I go against Dwarves and the like, but against most armies that have any decent casting he's worth every bit.

For my part, I put my scroll caddy [a Sorceror, I play chaos] on a barded chaos steed and stick him with marauders. 2 WS5 S4 attacks and a WS3 S4 attack help the unit win combats quite often, and it's a 2+ save T4 model in case someone tries to assassinate him in some combat - essentially since he's so much tougher to kill, they're throwing away their attacks.