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are chaos terminators relentless.

No. They have their own rules regarding moving and shooting in their codex.

but are not those rules the same as relentless

Yes and no, they dont have the actual special ability relentless but its stated in their codex that they can move and fire hvy wpns/assualt

I would play them yes. I don't know if that is RAW or not. The new rule book is newer.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines has a rule similar to Relentless, but it does have one key distinction (they do not count as stationary for the purposes of using Rapid Fire weapons.)

do what the codex says.
the rulebook is newer but the rule of thumb is to always follow the codex.

Plus, the USR doesn't override what is in the Codex. Should a given Codex say "This unit is Relentless" and then go on to give a slightly different wording, then that different wording is what counts. The wording in the USR section doesn't override wordings, it just provides one when one is lacking.

I count my terminators as stationary for rapid fire weapons.

skkipper wrote:I count my terminators as stationary for rapid fire weapons.

Under what rule basis?

Red_Lives wrote:

skkipper wrote:I count my terminators as stationary for rapid fire weapons.

Under what rule basis?

We're playing skkipperhammer.

skkipper wrote:I count my terminators as stationary for rapid fire weapons.

We've always played it that way as well. Blame it on momentum from previous editions, and the idea that terminator armor isn't different for imperials/chaos. RAW doesn't always hold sway everywhere.

well basicly the yak faq allowed for this and it truly makes since a why in the world would you be counted as staitionary for heavy and not a bollter.

Because the rules says so?

skkipper wrote:well basicly the yak faq allowed for this and it truly makes since a why in the world would you be counted as staitionary for heavy and not a bollter.

I think many people (myself included) are going to have to re-think issues like this.

In the past, GW made a point of often trying to bring similar wargear/weapons/rules that were updated in one codex in-line with each other. They did this through some codex re-prints (which they don't do anymore), FAQs, the Wargear book and even the USRs in the 4th edition rulebook (which said they replaced the text in codexes).

However, it appears as if they've changed their mind and decided trying to constantly 'keep up with the Joneses' everytime a new codex is released. The new policy now appears to be to play the game the way your codex says to play it, even if it differs from a similarly named item in another codex.

They've made this point public in their new podcast and I've also heard it personally from a designer.


So while this does mean there will be some odd indiscrepencies (DH Assault Cannons firing at Assault 3 without rending, for example) at the same time it is a way to wipe the slate clean and say: just play the game as your codex says.

Obviously where there are issues that really make the game seem to break down (like loyalist terminators not being able to assault after firing) those issues need to be sent to GW and hopefully they will put out a FAQ if they think the game should be played differently in that case from the codex wording.


Hopefully GW will continue to update their FAQs and we can get a real handle on the actual codex issues as opposed to the issues of 'does my codex follow the same rules as the other codex?'

skkipper wrote:well basicly the yak faq allowed for this and it truly makes since a why in the world would you be counted as staitionary for heavy and not a bollter.

By my reading, it seems to emphasise the difference between the old twin bolters that Terminators used to carry and the newer pattern of stormbolters that Loyalists now use. Without being able to move and fire those combi-bolters as if stationary, the stormbolter clearly comes out on top at long range - as it should.

It's a bit of a roundabout way of getting to that effect, but it makes sense in my mind.

That's why they get combi-weapons, apparently.

So buy them, enjoy them.

mikhaila wrote:

skkipper wrote:I count my terminators as stationary for rapid fire weapons.

We've always played it that way as well. Blame it on momentum from previous editions, and the idea that terminator armor isn't different for imperials/chaos. RAW doesn't always hold sway everywhere.

Scary!

That's nuts. If the new rule book says terminators are relentless, then ALL termies ought to be relentless. And the DH assault cannon ought to be heavy 4 with rending. Why doesn't GW just say "Use the newest rules in the MAIN rulebook"?

I didn't know chaos termies weren't stationary for rapid fire. I take it they also can't rapid-fire and charge despite being in terminator armor, which ought to make them relentless. But it doesn't because of slight difference in wording!

I think that when GW was writing the 5th Ed. rules, they weren't counting on everyone being such dcks about it.

I feel, and yes i am wrong by RAW, That if you count as stationary for heavy weapons, you count as stationary for rapid fire guys. they didn't include that because you don't need to be stationary to fire rapid fire guys. I am just glad that the guys i play against allow this. If i ever ran into a person that said no, I wouldn't do it. but I have yet to play anybody that has said NO.

Going back to look at the previous codex, that version didn't mention being able to move and rapid fire, either.
And, interestingly, the Space Marine codex also uses the same wording only mentioning heavy weapons.

No, the problem is that loyalist marines get storm bolters with assault 2 and Chaos gets stuck with twin-linked rapid fire (and the permission to assault after rapid fire).

Looking at it just now, the new version of Rapid Fire prohibits assault in ALL cases instead of 4th edition's range check. That's probably why all of the marine wargears got switched over to bolter, bolt pistol and close combat weapon.

I didn't know chaos termies weren't stationary for rapid fire. I take it they also can't rapid-fire and charge despite being in terminator armor, which ought to make them relentless. But it doesn't because of slight difference in wording!

It specifically says that they may Assault after firing Heavy or Rapid Fire weapons. I does not specifiy that they count as stationary for Rapid Fire weapons, nor does it say they are "Relentless". So why not use the rules given, since the USR don't seem to apply to CSM Termies.

yeah...

I always play that in terminator armour i can move shoot what ever i want and then assultif i want... that (and the 2+save) is what I've always understood the point of having it?

reading the RAW i can see that the rules are a proper mess?

I don't know if i should keep playing the way i play, or revert to RAW...

PaniC...

It depends on wether you want to play by the rules or what you think the rules should be. The rules are pretty clear on this one.

Ok, since I don't own the Chaos codex, what exactly is at stake here? I'd love to know since it's not clear after reading through the thread. I have chaos opponents so I'm pretty curious.

The relentless rule says that units always count as stationary for the purpose of firing rapid fire or heavy weapons, and my assault after firing said weapons.

The Chaos Terminator rule says that they only count as stationary for Heavy Weapons, but may assault after firing rapid fire or heavy weapons.

What this means is that Chaos Termies cannot fire their combi-bolters up to 24" after moving, (Or plasma for that matter) but may still assault after firing twice at 12".

Thanks for the clarification Whitedragon

Not only is the RAW clear, but it even makes sense for each force in question.

Space Marine Terminators have Storm Bolters and thus are better at the 12-24" range with 2 shots. They manuver at range and keep their firepower because that is their purpose.

Chaos Terminators have TL Bolters and thus are better at 1-12" because their two shots are twin-linked. They move in order to get into assault with the enemy so they don't concern themselves with popping off a shot at long range.

This fits in quite nicely with the SM-shooty / Chaos-assaulty POV that is encouraged in the game. Chaos Terminators don't have fancy missile launchers or assault cannons. They are meant to get up close and carve stuff up.

The SM Termies that are meant to get close and personal are Assault Terminators, and they don't carry a gun at all.

double post.