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Just an idea I'm playing around with...

Have several HQs, each unlocks several units so...

HQ - GK Master
(He unlocks)
Elite - GK terminators
Troops - GK squads and varients
Heavy - GK dread and land raiders

HQ - Cannoness
Elite - Celsetines
Troops - Battle sisters
Fast - Seraphim
Fast - Immolators
Heavy - Retributor
Heavy - Exorcist

HQ - Inquisitor Lord
Henchmen
Elite - Normal Inquisitor
Elite - Assassins
Elite - Death cultists
Elite - Daemon Hosts/high level psykers
Elite - funky alien squad
Elite - Rogue trader (with funky retinue and wargear options)
Troops - Inquisition Storm troops

HQ - Priest
HQ - Saint
Elite - Confessors
Troops - Zealots
Fast - Arco-Flagellants
Heavy - Penitant Engine

HQ - Planetary Defense Force Officer
Troops - IG squads
Troops - conscript squads
Heavy - IG tanks and heavy weapon teams

HQ - Death Watch Commander
Elite - Death watch
Troops - Marine tac squads
Fast - Land speeders
Heavy - SM tanks

(and what the heck since GW already had the models why not use them?)
HQ - Arbites Judge
Elite - Arbites with bolters
Troops - Arbites with shot guns
Troops - Arbites with shock mauls and shields
Fast - Arbites on bikes
Fast - cyber mastiffs
Heavy - Arbites snipers

Unlike a lot of the 5th edition codexes this one actually allows all the current builds of the 3rd edition book. The ability to cheese your army is sharply curtained by the limit of 2 HQs. If you want GKs with IG shooting you can't have assassins or marines. It also functions as Codex Imperium at last letting marines and IG fight side-by-side, although both are limited.

Thoughts?

I've been slowly working on a Codex: Inquisition for a while now, and it actually doesn't involve Sisters or GKs. It's just pure Inquisition, with three flavours of Inquisitor:

1. Generic (for all our Codex: CSM fans)
2. Malleus
3. Hereticus
4. Xenos

With each of them, as you have above Kyoto, 'unlocking' new troop types and allies.

The only thing I have done that's quite a bit different to the above is that I've expanded the Deathwatch quite a bit so that it includes Deathwatch Devastator, Assault, Command and Terminator Squads (both types). As well as Deathwatch Dreads.

I did this out of pure selfishness, as I own a 2500+/- Deathwatch army that consists of a Command Squad, 2 Tac Squads, an Assault Squad, a Dev Squad, a Termy Squad and a Termy Assault Squad.


I figure Deathwatch would be the type of unit that tailors itself for whatever mission it has been given, so limiting them to only Tactical Squads doesn't make a lot of sense.


The only thing I wouldn't include are Arbites. A while back I built up my Arbites from a simple Necromunda gang into several full squads and to me that just don't fit with the Inquisition in the same way mixing Adeptus Mechanicus doesn't fit with the Inquisition.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:I did this out of pure selfishness, as I own a 2500+/- Deathwatch army that consists of a Command Squad, 2 Tac Squads, an Assault Squad, a Dev Squad, a Termy Squad and a Termy Assault Squad.


I figure Deathwatch would be the type of unit that tailors itself for whatever mission it has been given, so limiting them to only Tactical Squads doesn't make a lot of sense.


The only thing I wouldn't include are Arbites. A while back I built up my Arbites from a simple Necromunda gang into several full squads and to me that just don't fit with the Inquisition in the same way mixing Adeptus Mechanicus doesn't fit with the Inquisition.

BYE

Well as you know I've become alergic to MEQs in recent years so I wanted to keep the Death Watch pretty simple. 'Death Watch' would be the elite shooty high unit with their move and shoot heavy bolters. Everyone else would marines who happen to wear black and have silver sleeves. No additional special rules.

Why do you think Arbs and Inquisition don't get along? Arbites are the Imperiums second line of defense on law enforcement (after the local police) so I think that's who Inquisitors would go to first to bust up a cult.

Yes, but not as forces involved in a war. It's be very small scale, like Necromunda scale. Not 40K scale.

BYE

Yeah, as much as I do love the Arbites, I've got to agree with HBMC on this one. I think they're appropriate as a unit that the Inquisitors might conscript, but not an entire army. Similarly, I think Planetary Defense Force Officer isn't the right title for that HQ. I agree that you definitely need an HQ that unlocks IG, but it's my understanding that Inquisitors often conscript straight out of the Guard rather than just taking up the local yokels.

Well they'd recruit out of whatever they wanted, and whatever was available. But I doubt there's much difference between PDFs and regular Guard armies other than the availability of specialist equipment and units (like Ab-Humans, rare tanks, Grenadiers, etc.).

It'd just be inducted Guard.

BYE

I called the IG unit PDF rather than IG to explain ehy they only get a limited selection of units. Similarly I have the Deathwatch commander unlocking marines to explain why they only get limited units.

This is both to fit with the 5th edition idea of 'everything in one book' and for game balance reasons.

1) I think Assassins, Alpha Psykers, Xenos Squads, Rogue Traders, and Inquisitorial Stormtroopers should not be bound to an Inquisitor Lord. Instead they should be bound to a normal Inquisitor which would be selectable by any force. I still agree with Demonhosts and Death-cult Assassins only being selectable if you have an Inquisitor Lord (along with the other restrictions, such as no GK's if you take any Daemonhosts).

2) I think Planetary Defense Force Officer is fairly redundant and said bound units should be available to every force.

3) Instead of breaking Arbites down that far, why not have an Arbite Grand Judge as the HQ, Arbite Judge Squad as the Elites, and combining your two Arbites troop selections into one squad with just different options?


With these changes in mind you'd still be allowed a fluffy, well-rounded force while having to choose carefully as to what exactly you want in it (having to choose between Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Sororitas, Priests/Penitents, or Arbites (or some combination there-of)).

I agree with the fact that low level inquisitor should be available to any selection, but in order to open up the advanced inquisitor forces you should have to use the inquisitor force. If any assassin were available to normal forces they wouldn't be as specialized as the temple assassins. I could see an elite selection inquisitor being allowed a stormtrooper bodyguard as well.

As far as the arbites, I agree that there should be a better elite selection, but not individual judges themselves. Make it an Arbite assault squad and give them some high powered options, possibly a higher WS/BS but leave it at that. the HQ selection would allow for a Judge or Grand Judge, the difference being a LD point and a wound. Also, I think there should be a distinct difference between the two arbite squads. Basic arbite squads should have the arbite shotgun, which if I remember is more powerful, maybe make it STR 4 AP- or range 24, or STR 3 AP 6. Make them just below SM scouts, or their equals. I think squads with shock mauls are great, give them combat shield and you're square.

Assassins shouldn't require Inquisitorial chaperones.

BYE

How about this.

Elite Inquisitor is just an 'Inquisitor'. Or Junior Inquisitor. You can make him something specific fluff-wise if you want.

Troop:
GK, Battle Sisters and Storm Troopers always available. It is up to you to define fluff why they would be fighting together. You can do it now using allies anyway.

After that you need HQ choices or Elite Inquisitor wargear to requisition units. Including Heavy Support. Also, maybe tie GK dreads to # of GK squads to provide anti-tank. Ditto LR.

wasserrj wrote:Basic arbite squads should have the arbite shotgun, which if I remember is more powerful, maybe make it STR 4 AP- or range 24, or STR 3 AP 6. Make them just below SM scouts, or their equals. I think squads with shock mauls are great, give them combat shield and you're square.

I'd love to see the return of Executioner rounds...R: 18" S: 4 AP:5 Assault 1, Re-roll misses.

I think Kid_Kyoto, your list is a good way to organize it.

Tacobake, with Kid_Kyoto's structure you'd always have access to atleast two troop choices, having 3 perpetual choices irregardless of HQ, in addition to the HQ determined ones would go too far outside the bound of justifying by fluff and could be a bit unfair.

HBMC is right assassin should be a persistent option. When you look at every combination of forces you might make assassins would always make sense as being in it.

For the Deathwatch, I think the rules for that squad will be updated to be similar to (somewhere in between) the "Sternguard" and "Vanguard" veterans, but with aliens being preffered enemies. I think Deathwatch is the best way to incorporate a limited number of Space Marine options, the trick is balancing those choices with what is in character with Deathwatch. I think that the Sgts. in the basic spacemarine squads should receive some sort of upgrade options to make them have the preferred enemy trait and to gain the gear options of full fledge deatwatch. Also in keeping with their advanced tech theme, all their tanks should come standard with a machine spirit.

Having Arbites in there is an appropriate addition though it might be a bit much with the shear volume of options you'd have. Their was a semi-semi-official arbite list written a while ago that I think went a long way to diminishing the idea of arbites by virtue of the author's (Tim Huckabee?) limited perspective on totalitarian police states. They had water cannons, wtf? Arbites are not municipal or planetary police, they're akin to the SS or the The Peoples Armed Police of China; a federal government level of para-military force fully armed with heavy military grade firepower and unilateral police power. They are the orphans of loyal guardsmen, raised by the state to be the cold iron fist of blind justice. The arbites were originally described as being equal to planetary defense forces, able to hold off those forces in case of a planetary governor going rebel, till outside aid could arrive. A water cannon can't do that.

I think unlocking seems good in THEORY but really doesn't add much. In addition, an Inquisitor could recruit from ALL groups, even rival inquisition forces. There is also a lot of fluff to consider (for instances sisters work with ordo hereticus a lot but are not actually part of it.) Rather I think it should look like this:

HQ:
Inquisitor Lord (simplified retinue options)
Grey Knights Hero (optional Terminator Retinue)
Canoness (optional Celestian Retinue)
Deathwatch Librarian (optional Kill Team Retinue)

Elites:
Death Cult Assassin (No Inquisitor Requirement) one upgradeable to Assassinorum Assassin (No Inquisitor Requirement)
Grey Knight Terminators (Land Raider Transport Option)
Sister Repentia
Arco Flagellents/Daemonhosts (merge to a generic unit)

Troops:
Grey Knights (Land Raider Transport Option)
Sisters of Battle (upgradeable to Celestians), 5-20 squad size, Immolator Transport option
Arbites (Infiltrating light armor unit), 5-20 man unit with weapon options (like heavy stubbers and flamers)
Deathwatch Kill Team (Rhino and Drop Pod Transport Option)

Fast Attack:
Deathwatch Bikers
Seraphim
Mounted Arbites (in Chimera)
Grey Knights in Drop Pod

Heavy Support:
Whirlwind (with optional Exorcist Launcher)
Penitent Engine / Dreadnaught (with Ironclad and Venerable options)
Retributors / Domion squad combination
Lemun Russ Battle Tank (or similar ordinance weapon)


Now I know a lot of people wouldn't be happy with this system. However, it is far more efficient and likely. Dozens of options is far to many and the red tape involved in an unlocking system makes it impossible for your opponent to know if you have a legal list. Some units are basically the SAME as another unit. A penitent engine could easily be represented by a Dreadnaught with 2 close combat weapons and a pair of flamers. Retributors and Dominions are the same unit but with different weapon options. Some units just don't see enough use to be needed in a codex (for instance Grey Knight Purgation squads).

Imperial guard has been dropped, as would the rules for allies. Those kind of forces are far better represented in an apocalypse game.

The troop choices would gain bonuses against certain enemies (for instance GK's would gain something against daemons). Any specialized vehicles (like immolators and land raiders) would be transport options. With the changes to transports in 5th edition this would be virtually the same. Most units can be "upgrades" to other units. A force containing a Canoness could upgrade their whirlwind to an immolator. That sort of thing.

There would be unlocked OPTIONS in some units but not full units. A lot of these units would work for different forces based on what your army theme is. A GK dreadnaught could be painted like a Deathwatch Dreadnaught or could be a Penitent Engine. In the end it would all make for a very characterful army without being unwieldy or impossible for your opponent to understand.

Miggidy Mack, I see where you are going, but I think a better compromise would be to just make more options generic, ie Penetent Engine = Close Combat Dreadnought +Upgrade. That sort of modification does go a long way to remove clutter and cut down on the excessive number of options. At the same time though I think exclusivity of certain units to specific ordo-forces must remain intact.

The all encompassing "Codex Imperalis" Kid Kyoto favors, though tempting, may be a bit broad. Questions such as Deathwatch's ties to Adeptus Mechanicus would be lacking and tossing that in would open up another set of units. Ugh and thats too much.

I think some options should be unlocked for all forces right off the bat at least one option in each FOC. I think the PDF best represent the standard unlocked starter portion. That said and after some thought, Adeptus Arbites might best be served being consolodated into planetary defense for the purposes of the unlocking, to streamline options, but stream line arbites as an upgrade to stormtroopers. The upgrade for the stormtrooper squad would make the sgt a Judge and give the squad the wide berth of options that a IG veteran squad does, plus the shields and mauls, plus bolters etc. That would further cut down on the codex excessive unit count. They'd probably come off less like Arbites in the old Necromunda rule and more like the Enforcers seen in the newer Necromunda rules (more mix and match weapons). Drop the mastiffs as a squad, make them wargear options. Keep the Arbite bikes tossing them into the planetary defense. Thats enough to get the arbite flavor without detracting from the Inquisition aspect.

Another thing that might slim the list down is if the "funky alien squad" were not a squad but were different retinue options for the Rogue Trader. Take a Kroot Tracker, get infiltrate for the squad; Take a Tau Controller and he can designate targets, giving rerolls to hit for squad; Hrud can be special for his "fussil?" cannon.; mind slaved genestealer for close combat; and a couple of standard human crew member type options. That would help to maintain and balance that each inquisitorial ordo has one elite option (non-GK, non-SB, non-DW).

aka_mythos wrote:Miggidy Mack, I see where you are going, but I think a better compromise would be to just make more options generic, ie Penetent Engine = Close Combat Dreadnought +Upgrade. That sort of modification does go a long way to remove clutter and cut down on the excessive number of options. At the same time though I think exclusivity of certain units to specific ordo-forces must remain intact.

That's exactly what I was suggesting.

The problem with a "comprehensive" list is that it is, frankly, a hope that will never happen. I'm betting I could write the rules I designed up in a few hours. So if it would take a normal fairly intelligent gamer say 8 hours to write up some balanced rules that can build a wide variety of different rules then it would take a GW employee about 4 years to do the same thing. That's right about when they want to release.

Miggidy Mack wrote:I think unlocking seems good in THEORY but really doesn't add much.

I would generally agree - there are only a few things that should lock - one per HQ type; the rest are mix-and-match as the player desires. Conceptually, this would be like the current Chaos Marine Codex, with minimal restrictions, and a lot of flexibility. Most of the stuff should be common and sharable.

HQ
Inquisitor Lord w/ Retinue (Land Raider option)
Grey Knights Hero
Cannoness
Deathwatch Librarian

Elites
Daemonhost - requires Inquisitor Lord
Imperial Assassin - requires Inquisitor Lord
Death Cult Assassin
Grey Knight Terminators (Land Raider option)
Grey Knights Dreadnought - requires Grey Knights Hero
Sisters Repentia
Sisters Veterans
Deathwatch Kill Team

Troops
Stormtroopers / Arbites
Grey Knights
Sisters of Battle

non-FOC Troops
Arco-Flagellents
Tactical Marines
Imperial Guardsmen - (Chimera option, no Rhino / Razorback)

Transport
Rhino
Razorback / Immolator

Fast Attack
Penitent Engine
Sentinel
Seraphim
Assault Marines - requires Tactical Marines

Heavy Support
Orbital Strike
Retributors
Exorcist - requires Cannoness
Leman Russ - requires Imperial Guardsmen


Basically, streamline the list and only lock away a very few distinctive options. Let the players choose, as they can't take everything. Note that only the Inquisitor Lord has a Retinue - the rest are ICs who can join a unit.
____

minor cleanup: Arcoflagellants as Non-FOC Troops; GK Dread locked.

Miggidy Mack wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Miggidy Mack, I see where you are going, but I think a better compromise would be to just make more options generic, ie Penetent Engine = Close Combat Dreadnought +Upgrade. That sort of modification does go a long way to remove clutter and cut down on the excessive number of options. At the same time though I think exclusivity of certain units to specific ordo-forces must remain intact.

That's exactly what I was suggesting.

The problem with a "comprehensive" list is that it is, frankly, a hope that will never happen. I'm betting I could write the rules I designed up in a few hours. So if it would take a normal fairly intelligent gamer say 8 hours to write up some balanced rules that can build a wide variety of different rules then it would take a GW employee about 4 years to do the same thing. That's right about when they want to release.

I was agreeing with you to a degree. Between your list and kid_kyoto's list I would want something two steps back from your list toward Kid_Kyoto's.

An important fact is that the IG codex is rumored to have an Inquisitor as an HQ option, meant to represent when an inquisitor works closely with IG. I think we should stay away from full scale IG units; to avoid becoming an alternative to an IG list.

Another important factor is GW policy of not dropping support of armies, so while they might change rules or merge them its unlikely they would drop units from the Witchhunters and Daemonhunters armies. GW intends only a consolidation of the number of commonalities between the lists.

Core units you can take irregardless of HQ:

Elite:
Temple Assassins
Death Cult Assassins
Ordo Inquisitor

Troop:
Inq. Stormtroopers (Arbite Upgrades)

Fast Attack:
Sentinels (Upgrade to Penitent Engines or Robots makes it a Heavy Support)

Heavy Support:
Land Raider
Orbital Bombardment

If you take an Inquisitor, you then choose their ordo:
Ordo: Xenos, Malleus, Hereticus Retinues (common and distinctive options for each retinue)
Common Henchmen: the Familiar; the Acolyte; the Warrior; the Sage
Xenos: the Magos; the Xenos
Malleus: the Heirophant; the Mystic
Hereticus: the Penitent; the Chirurgeon

Your selection unlocks:
Xenos: Rogue Trader; Tech Priest; Robot Upgrade
Malleus: Daemon Host; (I think they need more units)
Hereticus: Arco-Flagellants; Priest; Penitent Engine Upgrade

Deathwatch Commander (Librarian or Captain) allows:
Elite: Deathwatch Terminators (weapon mix; combi-options; accurate deepstrike)
Troop: Deathwatch
Fast Attack: Land Speeder (standard SM speeder but with the deepstrike jamming the scout speeders have); DW Assault (Vanguard style)
Heavy Support: (Something new maybe a droppod with support weapons; Devastator squad with limited but special options)

GK Commander:
Elite: GK terminators
Troops: GK squads
Heavy Support: GK dread; Purgation Squad

Cannoness:
Elite: Celsetines
Troops: Battle sisters
Fast Attack: Seraphim; Immolators
Heavy Support: Retributor; Exorcist


In total 30 unit options; with a single HQ choice you'd have access to only 10-13 units; with two HQ choices you'd have access to between 14-17 units. So while the overall codex may have a lot of options practical options are more limited because you'll never have more than half the total number of units choose from (keeping people in line with the character of their sub-faction). The inquisition becomes a bit of a swiss army knife, specific tools to deal with specific threats.
---

Leave out basic marines, leave out Imperial Guard; it adds too much to a bloated list. If you want to play Inquisition play Inquisition. If you want to play IG or SM with a few Inquisitorial items, they should be taken as allies. Let the inquisition stand on its own and not on the backs of other army lists.

HBMC, I only noticed what you said you added for the Deathwatch. Deathwatch kill teams are effectively already a sort of command squad; captain surrounded by veteran marines. There advantage should be the fact that they'll have many captain and librarians fielded. They would not have Dreadnoughts, for the veterans who join the Deathwatch would be too valuable to their chapter of origin to be held indefinitely by the Deathwatch; those veterans wounded would be returned to their appropriate chapters to be entombed in their chapters dreadnoughts. Landspeeders are really more appropriate to the Deathwatch as a support provider; think special ops calling in close air support.

There isn't such a thing as a generic DW tactical squad; their kill teams similar to special forces units comprised exclusively of Veterans as such no marine chapter would send their veteran on a temporary tour with a DW force, dealing with bigger alien threats, just to see them more poorly equipped than they are when their facing conventional enemies. Veterans in the Codex: SM receive a big boost in the codex and Deathwatch should be on par with those units. All Deathwatch are super well equipped veterans. I think you just meant the kill teams when you said DW "tactical squad" I just wanted to add clarification to what you said.

DW should have a single terminator squads, allowing a mix of weapons from both assault and tactical style squads. They should also have some additional gear options (taking combi-bolter and getting access to special ammo and a better deapstrike).

If they have an assault squad it would be in the same vein as "Vanguard" marines.

Devastator squads, yes but I think they should have a very limited heavy weapon selection (DW Heavy Bolter, Needle Sniper rifles; and maybe a special missile launcher); DW heavy bolter established; needle sniper weapon has been quoted several times as the choice ordo xenos weapon, missile launcher has DW like flexibility. More importantly they have to be portable enough for them to keep their infiltration.

Wow... John's Inquisition list actually manages to make the Inquisition about as dry and boring as actual GW Codices.

And sometimes I'm glad he can't read my posts. Please don't quote me.



Anyway, (you can quote this part), I don't mind the idea of 'unlockable' assets within an army. In fact, my ideas for Codex: Inquisition for our Revisited Project stem from having a single army list that changes depending upon what Ordos you include.

Of course, this also includes separate Grey Knight and Sisters Codices for those who want to detach themselves from the Inquisition (and maybe even Codex: Deathwatch if I can think of a way to make them interesting as an army), but I think in order to have a successful Inquisition Codex, it has to be some that can take lots of forms. The Inquisition has many different ways of solving problems, and a simple army list (like the dull thing two posts above me) isn't the way to represent that.

Sadly, the idea of an Inquisition Codex - a Codex filled with the most quirky and unique things within the Imperium, available in different ways to a myriad of vastly different Inquisitors - is like an anathema to GW's current writers. They want solid lists with no options. The Inquisition, by its very nature, goes against that.

This why we won't see an Inquisition Codex for a long time...

BYE

The only way I could see a unified codex working is to have 4 army lists in the one book - one for each chamber militant and an extra for the Inquisition.

The chamber militant army lists are actually really simple. The only one with options is the Inquisition list (and even then you're just talking about wargear/retinue and maybe one elite choice) and all options are dependent on the Ordo chosen for the Inquisitor.

After you pick your Ordo, you can either do a pure Chamber Militant force, a pure Inquisition force, or a mix of the two.


But as HBMC points out, that gives you options; and we all know what GW thinks of them....

I don't think that any IG units should go into the book. Keep in mind that the Lemun Russ is actually not exclusive to the IG, the arbites have access to them too (but not many) for "riot and crowd control". The list I proposed (while definitely not perfect) supports all the current MODELS. GW has no problems removing units from the range, just not models.

If they roll all the ordo's into one book I think Arbites need to be something totally new. Not just Storm Troops with Shotguns. They would probably even need a new plastic kit. That plus a deathwatch upgrade sprue (weapons and shoulders in plastic) and you have yourself some new units ready to go.

The codex is 2 editions old. More importantly, a lot of the units/concepts were brand new with these codex's. The second pass at them can make some pretty big changes and probably needs too.

I think I have a great idea pulled from the very pages of other Imperial books. Here's my list idea...

===HQ===
0-1 Inquisitor Lord
- May take a retinue of Henchmen or Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.
- Wargear available depends mainly on a Mark-like system. Seal of the Daemonhunter gives him access to Daemonhunter equipment and the Daemonhost unit, Seal of the Witch Hunter gives him access to Witch Hunter equipment and the Alpha Psykers unit, and Seal of the Alien Hunter gives him access to Alien Hunter equipment and the Xenos Squad unit.
0-1 Grey Knights Hero (GK)
0-1 Deathwatch Hero (DW)
0-1 Adepta Sororitas Heroine (SB)
0-5 Priests
- Do not take up a slot on the Force Organization chart, as per normal.

===ELITES===
Inquisitor
0-1 Officio Assassorium Operative
- Only requires an Inquisitor in a force if being used as an Ally.
Death-cult Assassins
- May only be taken if you have an Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord present in your army as per normal.
0-1 Deviate Unit (Daemonhosts, Alpha Psykers, Xenos Squad)
- Can choose from Daemonhosts, Alpha Psykers, or a Xenos Squad depending on what Seal the Inquisitor Lord has. This unit can only be in an army if the army has an Inquisitor Lord.
- If Daemonhosts are chosen the force may not include any Grey Knights (indicated by the GK abbreviation for the purposes of this list).
- If Alpha Psykers are chosen the force may not include any Sisters of Battle/Adepta Sororitas (indicated by the SB abbreviation for the purposes of this list).
- If a Xenos Squad is chosen the force may not include any Deathwatch (indicated by the DW abbreviation for the purposes of this list). Xenos Squads are basically rehashed Troops choices from alien codecies such as Eldar, Kroot, Tau, etc).
Arco-flagellants
- May only be taken if your army includes at least one Priest.
0-1 Sisters Repentia (SB)

===TROOPS===
Adeptis Arbites
- Can take a certain number of Kayninez and Penal Penitents. Can only take the Penal Penitents if there is a Priest in the army though.
Grey Knights (GK)
- If a Grey Knight Hero is included in the force, any squad of Grey Knights may be upgraded to Grey Knight Terminators at a points cost. Grey Knight Terminators count as Elites choices.
Deathwatch Kill Team (DW)
- If a Deathwatch Hero is included in the force, any squad of Deathwatch Kill Teams may be upgraded to a Deathwatch Veteran Squad at a points cost. Deathwatch Veteran Squads count as Elites choices.
Battle Sisters Squad (can be upgraded to Celestian Squads) (SB)
- If an Adepta Sororitas Heroine is included in the force, any Battle Sisters Squad may be upgraded to a Celestian Squad at a points cost. Celestian Squads count as Elites choices.

===FAST ATTACK===
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
- Count as Troops choices if there is an Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord present in the army.
Grey Knight Attack Bike Squadron (GK)
Deathwatch Land Speeder Squadron (DW)
Seraphim Squad (SB)

===HEAVY SUPPORT===
Grey Knights Purgation Squad (GK)
Deathwatch Devastator Squad (DW)
Retributor Squad (SB)
Whirlwind (GK/DW)
- Can be upgraded to an Exorcist (SB).
Land Raider (GK/DW)
Land Raider Crusader (GK/DW)
Dreadnought (GK/DW)
- Can be upgraded to a Penitant Engine if there are any Priests present in the force.

===TRANSPORT===
Chimera
Rhino
Immolator (SB)
Razorback (GK/DW)

aka_mythos wrote:I think we should stay away from full scale IG units; to avoid becoming an alternative to an IG list.

If the IG are just basic Guardsmen squads and basic Russes, they won't compete with regular Guard. They won't have any of the other interesting units (Hellhounds, Basilisks, etc.)

Core units you can take irregardless of HQ:

OK, though I think this list is too limited.

If you take an Inquisitor, you then choose their ordo:
Ordo: Xenos, Malleus, Hereticus Retinues

IMO, selecting an Ordos is like Doctrines / Craftworlds / Legions / Traits. When someone says "Inquisition", that should be pretty clear to the opponent what they might be facing, and determining legality should be little more than a quick glance for a handful of units.

Your selection unlocks:
Xenos: Rogue Trader; Tech Priest; Robot Upgrade
Malleus: Daemon Host; (I think they need more units)
Hereticus: Arco-Flagellants; Priest; Penitent Engine Upgrade
Deathwatch Commander (Librarian or Captain) allows:
GK Commander:
Cannoness:

This is really 6 lists in one, and fairly difficult for the opponent to keep track of. Especially with so many sub-options.

In total 30 unit options

I think I had 27 total, of which 20 are commonly available.

Leave out basic marines, leave out Imperial Guard;

Keep in mind that I don't *have* Allies rules. They go away, because Allies is a mess which is why CSM don't mix with Daemons. The presence of Guardsmen, Russ, and Sentinel can represent an Inquisitional army with Allied Guard or a Guard army with Inquisitional Allies. But the blend is very limited. This keeps things a *lot* simpler for everyone. It removes the question of IG Doctrines, SM Traits, and non-vanilla SM entirely. Allied Guardsmen are simply generic Guardsmen, in the same way that Allied Daemons are generic Daemons.

There isn't such a thing as a generic DW tactical squad

People can model whatever they like. If they want to represent a Xenos Deathwatch force, then they can do that with Elite Kill Teams backed by basic Marines and Assault Marines.

DW should have a single terminator squads

They can, but oddly enough, the DW Termies carry large power weapons with their Storm Bolters.

If they have an assault squad it would be in the same vein as "Vanguard" marines.

The Elites are overloaded enough already.

Devastator squads,

Nah. Orbital Bombardment. The idea isn't to create full detailed armies, but to have a base of ordinary stuff that has interesting spicy stuff for HQ and Elite to give character.

Marik Law wrote:I think I have a great idea pulled from the very pages of other Imperial books. Here's my list idea...

This is perfect if GW were still doing high-detail Codices with lots of restrictions and stuff.

But it's not how GW seems to be doing things now.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Marik Law wrote:I think I have a great idea pulled from the very pages of other Imperial books. Here's my list idea...

This is perfect if GW were still doing high-detail Codices with lots of restrictions and stuff.

But it's not how GW seems to be doing things now.

Well the simple fact is the way most of us were approaching the codex is really the only worthwhile way to, and still have a good codex.
Just with the chamber militant we have 3 mini-lists representing hyper specialized forces giving 17 non-compatible units; those units wouldn't just not work together their rivalry might even make them want to bust each others heads a bit, call it ego. Then we toss in the three Ordo of the inquisition; thats even more choices. If GW make one big homogeneous codex, they have to completely ignore the inherent rivalry the is pervasive between the three Ordos. That fluff based implication make unlockables the most likely and most ideal way (so far put forth) to deal with that fact. If you make a codex with unlockable the primary consideration must be made to making individual sub-faction choices to be viable as well as combinations of sub-factions viable.

I think the Inquisition Codex here is suffering a severe split personality problem.

IMO, the rivalry between Ordos or Chambers is probably smaller than that between the Great Powers of Chaos, so a combined Inquisition Codex should be possible if a Great Chaos book exists.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think we should stay away from full scale IG units; to avoid becoming an alternative to an IG list.

If the IG are just basic Guardsmen squads and basic Russes, they won't compete with regular Guard. They won't have any of the other interesting units (Hellhounds, Basilisks, etc.)

Its a conceptual clash. If IG have a Inquisitor option to represent the an Inquisitor working closely with the IG; what exactly do we represent by having IG in an Inqusitorial force, IG working closely with an Inquisitor that would be storm troopers, an elite task force, not some cannon fodder units. Would some specialized group (CIA, FBI) ever really borrow a single tank, if there were an incident requiring that level of firepower they'd just call out the full military and not an elite strike force.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Core units you can take irregardless of HQ:

OK, though I think this list is too limited.

You have to realize that the core list is going to be supplemented by at least one other choice block of unlockable units and isn't intended to be a full army, thus it does not need to be viable unto itself.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

If you take an Inquisitor, you then choose their ordo:
Ordo: Xenos, Malleus, Hereticus Retinues

IMO, selecting an Ordos is like Doctrines / Craftworlds / Legions / Traits. When someone says "Inquisition", that should be pretty clear to the opponent what they might be facing, and determining legality should be little more than a quick glance for a handful of units.

The ordo distinction has to come into play somewhere, maybe it can be treated like chaos marks, but the fact is you have specific units tied to different sub-factions.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Your selection unlocks:
Xenos: Rogue Trader; Tech Priest; Robot Upgrade
Malleus: Daemon Host; (I think they need more units)
Hereticus: Arco-Flagellants; Priest; Penitent Engine Upgrade
Deathwatch Commander (Librarian or Captain) allows:
GK Commander:
Cannoness:

This is really 6 lists in one, and fairly difficult for the opponent to keep track of. Especially with so many sub-options.

So you ask your opponent more specifically about his list?

If you eliminate the sort of sub-selection of unlockable the inquisitor provides you make him less worthwhile relative to the SoB, GK, and DW commander selections at which point it becomes Codex: Chamber militant and not inquisition. I think you could trim down the list of units unlockable by the inquisitor to Xeno: Rogue Trader, Malleus: Daemon Host, Hereticus: Arco-Flagellants. Drop robot from list, move priest, tech priest, and penitent engine to the common list as I could see all ordos having some form of those.

It may be 6 lists but each by its self is narrowly viable. The individual inquisitor codicies were really 3 lists each: witchhunters you could go sisters of battle or Inq. with IG or Inq. with marines. Same went for GK and by extrapolation the DW, so if we get it down to 6 compared to the 9 possible lists you would've had before its a step up. I think we can probably get it down to three or four. It is important to make the Inquisitor an almost necessary choice

JohnHwangDD wrote:

In total 30 unit options

I think I had 27 total, of which 20 are commonly available.

Well marines currently have 25 unit entries and their new codex gives them some new ones; so have an unlockable structure with 30+ options but where only about 20 or so can even be accessed in a given game seems pretty fair. Too many common units there is no flavor; your codex is more an amalgamation of IG and SM with Inquisition added for flavor. The only reason GW allowed IG and non-GK SM to be taken in the codex was to give the Witchhunter and Daemonhunter codex more than one way to be a viable list. An unlockable system gives several ways, without the added IG and SM burden.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Leave out basic marines, leave out Imperial Guard;

Keep in mind that I don't *have* Allies rules. They go away, because Allies is a mess which is why CSM don't mix with Daemons. The presence of Guardsmen, Russ, and Sentinel can represent an Inquisitional army with Allied Guard or a Guard army with Inquisitional Allies. But the blend is very limited. This keeps things a *lot* simpler for everyone. It removes the question of IG Doctrines, SM Traits, and non-vanilla SM entirely. Allied Guardsmen are simply generic Guardsmen, in the same way that Allied Daemons are generic Daemons.

I don't have ally rules either, I agree they are a mess. I think it diminishes the flavor of the inquisition to have them in there. They were only ever in there to add viability to narrowly viable codex. The narrow viability was in the fact with out those options in the witchhunter and daemon hunters book you could only play one particular armylist, adding the IG and SM allowed more variation. By combining the Inquisition into one book, you alleviate the necessity for the IG and SM to be included in the codex.

Allied Guardsmen are not simply generic guardsmen. Allied guardsmen is the Codex: IG with the rumored Inquisitor option. To bring IG into Inquisition beyond stormtroopers, diminishes both, less viable IG (than IG codex) with the least viable Inquisitor. The units used by the Inquisition are suppose to comprise a specialized strike force, basic guardsmen are not elite enough and would be cannon fodder.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

There isn't such a thing as a generic DW tactical squad

People can model whatever they like. If they want to represent a Xenos Deathwatch force, then they can do that with Elite Kill Teams backed by basic Marines and Assault Marines.

Yes they can model whatever they like. My point though was that a Deathwatch Kill team (equivalent to Sternguard) are the basic troops of the Deathwatch, that even in their basic form are the most veteran of regular space marines. By that virtue a Deathwatch army should be comprised predominantly by that unit. If the Deathwatch is to stand on its own as a viable militant force its nature dictates that they would prefer not working with uninitiated space marines on their specialized missions. The backing of "basic marines and assault marines" stems from the either or option in the Deathwatch rules. The rule that allowed you instead of taking a Deathwatch kill team allowed you to take basic marines, where all your Sgt's served with the Deathwatch at one time and brought back that experience (but NOT that those squads led by those Sgt's. were in any way Deathwatch). Thus Deathwatch killteams are the back bone of the militant ordo xenos arns, not basic marines with a well to do sgt.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

DW should have a single terminator squads

They can, but oddly enough, the DW Termies carry large power weapons with their Storm Bolters.

I meant a unified terminator entry that was a combination of the tactical and assault terminator squad formations, allowing combinations of both units options in a single unit, but with the addition of combi-weapons so that they could have access to the special ammo, which Stormbolters won't in the new marine codex.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

If they have an assault squad it would be in the same vein as "Vanguard" marines.

The Elites are overloaded enough already.

That's why I said they'd be Fast Attack. In an army of elite units, the distinctions between elite FOC and other FOC is a lot slimmer.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Devastator squads,

Nah. Orbital Bombardment. The idea isn't to create full detailed armies, but to have a base of ordinary stuff that has interesting spicy stuff for HQ and Elite to give character.

I thought it was to make a full detailed army. If we expect a Codex Inquisition to equally represent all three Ordos equally the Deathwatch would need to have additional unit options to make them equally viable or else no one will ever take them. An infiltrating devastator squad with special weapons fits the bill for Deathwatch and are no more out of character than the GK purgation squads or the SoB Retributor squad.

If were going to try to make it authentic Codex worthy, it also means we have to limit ourselves to a maximum of roughly 25 unit entries (not including Transports or Special Characters). With the units currently present in Codex Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters (not including vehicles or special characters) there's 26 entries. If we want to fit in more units such as Deathwatch units were going to have to scrap some units and merge others.

That being said the big question is: Which units do we scrap, which do we merge, and which do we add?

JohnHwangDD wrote:This is really 6 lists in one, and fairly difficult for the opponent to keep track of. Especially with so many sub-options.

He really doesn't put a lot of faith in his opponents does he?

I dunno, maybe it's just me but I've never had trouble knowing what army I'm facing and no one I've played has ever had any trouble working out what I'm using.

BYE

Marik Law wrote:If were going to try to make it authentic Codex worthy, it also means we have to limit ourselves to a maximum of roughly 25 unit entries (not including Transports or Special Characters). With the units currently present in Codex Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters (not including vehicles or special characters) there's 26 entries. If we want to fit in more units such as Deathwatch units were going to have to scrap some units and merge others.

That being said the big question is: Which units do we scrap, which do we merge, and which do we add?

I understand what your saying, but one point I was trying to make was that total units isn't nearly as important as the unit you can choose from after unlocking. For example if you're playing straight up SoB, you'd have 5-6 core units to choose from and the 6 unlocked SoB units, thus the SoB player only has 12 or so units to choose from. Throw in an inquisitor you bump it up a bit. You still only have 12 or so units to choose from, the fact the book in total has 25 or 30 choices in total becomes a moot point. I am not saying we give this codex 30 units, but that its unique nature deserves some additional latitude for bleeding over any unit count.

As a guidline, marines have in total 24 units + 3 transports + 6 Special Characters. The new marine codex adds 4 new units and 7 more special characters over the current codex; Landraiders consolidated to single entry (-2), terminator squad consolidated (-1). So the new space marine codex (the model of codices for the new edition) has 25 unit entries +3 transports + 13 special characters. The special character section may be the best way to include some of the more out their units like a "Xenos mercenary squad"

A couple of things that we can probably get away with: all land raider variants in a single entry; make orbital bombardment an option for the Inquisitor or other commanders to purchase like an upgrade; Marik, your deviate unit is a good idea (as with any new unit may need some trial and error rule finagling); we already have single Inquisitor option; dreadnought and penitent engine consolidated (that creates issues with th fact the penitent engine is more like a sentinel and is in squadrons); redundant units like the SoB "Dominion Sqd" consolidate into the troop entry with "if transport taken counts as Fast Attack" added.

Core list units: Inquisitor Lord; Temple Assassins; Priests;Death Cult ;Lesser Ordo Inquisitors; Arbites or Stormtrooper; Land Raider (6 units)
Tied to Inquisitor: Marik's Deviates; Arco-Flagelant (might make sense if these were the Hereticus deviates instead of psykers; (Rogue Trader possibly, may be better as a special character) (2 Units)
SoB: Cannoness; Celestines; Battle Sisters; Seraphim; Immolators; Retributor; Excorcist (7 Units)
GK: GK Commander; GK Terminators; GK Squad; GK Purrgation Sqd; DK Dread (5 units)
DW: DW Commander; DW Terminators; DW Killteam; (Only two of the following: DW Assault Sqd or DW Devastor Sqd or Land Speeder) (5 Units)

That makes 25 units. If wiggle room is allowed insert Sister Repentia to SoB making the total 26.

Dedicated Transports: Chimera; Rhino; (maybe Razorback maybe not)

Witch Hunter Special Characters (2):
Inq Lord Karamazov
St. Celestine

Daemonhunters (2):
Inq. Lord Coteaz
Brother Captain Stern

Alien Hunters (3):
(An Adeptus Mechanicus character who goes collecting alien tech)
(A Deathwatch Captain, maybe some sort of background where his chapter was wiped out so he is permanently Deathwatch)
Inq. Lord Cryptman (has pet tyranids)?

Available to all (3):
(an inquisitor lord who often works with multiple ordos allowing ordo cooperation)
(Rogue Trader)
(an Inquisitor of one of the minor Ordos giving him a uniqueness compared to other inquisitors)

Total Special Characters: 10

So far this make our codex Inquisition have 25 (maybe 26) units + 2 (maybe 3) transports + 10 Special Characters.