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A while ago I purchased the forge world avatar. I would like to use him in Apocalypse games, but as the rules go I have to use the standard avatar rules despite the fact he rivals the size of the 3 daemon lords who actually have rules that represents their models. I made the following rules so that the avatar can have rules suitable for his model’s dynamic.

Forge World Avatar

Pts WS BS S T W I A LD SV
750 10 10 8 8 8 8 6 10 2+/4+

Gargantuan

Wailing Doom: Can be fired in shooting phase. Range 24” S:8 AP:1 3” blast Melta

Inferno: The avatar can cause flames to erupt from the ground near him
18” Strength 7 AP: 3 Template

Molten Blood: strength: 5 AP: 4 hit on model that wounds avatar

Molten Body: Is never wounded by weapons that have the melta special rule or are flame/heat based in their nature.

Inspiration: Same as codex but increased to 18”

War God: Always hits on a 3+ regardless of other modifiers.

One problem of using the forge world Avatar is that there is little fluff justification for using a supped up avatar. The best I came up with is that the Forge World Avatar represents the avatar being used in an engagement that was foreseen centuries before by the farseers of the craftworld. During this time the Avatar is nurtured and coaxed by the eldar - the avatar reaches across the webway to other avatars and borrows some of their essence. While this does not reconstitute the war god to his pre-sundered form, it does augment his abilities greatly. When the time for the battle emerges the avatar has swelled with the essences of many avatars throughout the galaxy.

I like these rules and fluff, with avatar did you get the sword or spear one? i want to save up and buy the spear one

Its good to see a more powerful Avatar, but I think that this might be a *bit* excessive. Maybe a 500 point version with WS and BS down by two, all others down by one (barring Armour), and always hits on a 4+ instead of 3+. That way he seems a bit more useable.

That said, post some pics of him when he's done, as pics of this great model are a bit rare unfortunately.

EDIT: One other thing - you noted that he is gargantuan, but you dont have a listing for Mass points. Do they still exist under Apoc, or am I still used to the Forgeworld rules?

I think keep the profile and rules the way they are and make the point 500 around there anyway. if you have read the codex you will see the avatar is worthy of the profile listed and more

blinky wrote:Maybe a 500 point version with WS and BS down by two...

You are aware that the standard Avatar has WS10, aren't you?

BYE

As for justification, he is the only model in the game that actually has a proper claim to be a god (albeit a shattered one).

The justification is: This is a more accurate representation of the Avatar than the current one, at least for the larger craftworlds.

I do prefer the 2nd edition statline, only seven wounds and five attacks, but initiative 10. Everything else was the same as you've stated.

Squig_herder wrote:I like these rules and fluff, with avatar did you get the sword or spear one? i want to save up and buy the spear one

My forgeworld avatar is only primered so there isn’t much to show picture-wise. I purchased the avatar with the sword - at the time that was the only option. If the spear was available at the time I would have probably have taken it instead.

blinky wrote:EDIT: One other thing - you noted that he is gargantuan, but you dont have a listing for Mass points. Do they still exist under Apoc, or am I still used to the Forgeworld rules?

Apocalypse has gargantuan as a category – but it did away with mass points. They are like monstrous creatures but move 12” hit in hand to hand as ordnance, and are more durable as they are not insta-killed by even vortex grenades (suffer multiply wounds instead). In apocalypse there are daemon lord characters with durability, capabilities, and point cost comparable to my avatar. I used the daemon lords as references while writing the rules.

Squig_herder wrote:I think keep the profile and rules the way they are and make the point 500 around there anyway. if you have read the codex you will see the avatar is worthy of the profile listed and more

I really think that 750 points is about right for his abilities. While the Daemon lords would be at an advantage in hand to hand, the avatar’s inspiration and shooting attacks a fairly large perks to the army considering his durability. Having an 18” radius circle that makes your army fearless is a pretty big deal.

As for as my fluff justification does anyone have any better ideas? Using the forge world model as a normal avatar would be rather depressing – imagine him being vaporized on turn one by a single hit from a warhound.

Daba wrote:As for justification, he is the only model in the game that actually has a proper claim to be a god (albeit a shattered one).

What about the C'Tan?

incarnation not god

Its not my fault your God isnt as powerful as my God's minions

Darkness wrote:Its not my fault your God isnt as powerful as my God's minions

which god?
if your talking about the avatar, if Kaela Mensha Khaine was whoe again, and walking on the marterial word none would live

What about the C'Tan?

are not gods at all, simply very powerful beings.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

blinky wrote:Maybe a 500 point version with WS and BS down by two...

You are aware that the standard Avatar has WS10, aren't you?

BYE

No I wasnt, in which case this is pretty much a good statline. I thought that the GW avatar had WS 7.

Daba wrote:

What about the C'Tan?

are not gods at all, simply very powerful beings.

I dunno, their pseudonym of "star gods" may be a misappelation, but anything that can create or destroy matter/life/energy at a whim and can't be wholly destroyed except by one of their own kind (and even that's debatable in the case of the Outsider) is something that I'd call a god. That and me in bed!

The term god refers to a being that possesses followers who believe that being can influence their environment. While being a god suggests being very powerful, it is not a requirement.

In Norse mythology a dwarf held Thor and a buddy god ransom. Not the king of all dwarfs or the dwarf god, a dwarf that lived in a small cabin in the woods. Loki had to pay a ransom of gold to allow their release. A dwarf is smacking around three gods and they couldn’t do anything but pay the ransom.

In 40K the traditional gods were formed out of the collected emotions/wills of sentient species. They become the shepherds to those experiences and lord over those of dedicate themselves to a particular lifestyle.

In 40K terms I don’t think the C’Tan are gods, just really powerful aliens. Gulliver was like a god to the people of Liliput, despite they fact they he was just a normal man where he came from. C’tan wish to be worshiped as gods, but that does not make them gods in the sense of 40K deities – If they are considered gods then any really powerful alien has an equal claim to that title. Eldrad can see the future and change it so worlds live and die by his decisions, yet he is not considered a god in the 40K universe.

If a C’tan was sent into the warp it would be likely torn into pieces and destroyed by the lesser daemons of chaos. Or if it would be altered, mutated, and likely made into a slave for the chaos gods.

Grunt13 wrote:The term god refers to a being that possesses followers who believe that being can influence their environment. While being a god suggests being very powerful, it is not a requirement.

By this very definition, the C'Tan would in fact be gods. The Necrontyr were followers and worshippers of the C'Tan, in whose power to manipulate the physical reality they believed would allow them to overthrow the influence of the Old Ones in the galaxy...

I think the definition of god in the 40K universe is really a matter of perspective. While the C'Tan have no presence in the warp and aren't able to manipulate it, their mastery over the physical milleu is supreme. Remember that the grand plan of the C'Tan is to separate the Empyrean (the Warp) from the physical world and that they have the capability to do so.

It's implied in the fluff that the Deceiver only needs the remaining C'Tan to co-operate in order to achieve this goal. This is a reflection of the power of the Chaos Gods attempting to spill the Warp over into the material world, the inverse mirror of the C'Tan's goal. If the C'Tan are capable of acts comparable to forces of Chaos, named "gods" by the powers that be, and have followers (albiet, mostly mindless ones...) wouldn't that make them "gods" as well?

Gavin Thorne wrote:

Grunt13 wrote:The term god refers to a being that possesses followers who believe that being can influence their environment. While being a god suggests being very powerful, it is not a requirement.

By this very definition, the C'Tan would in fact be gods.

So would be Charles Manson.

The C’tan aren’t waving their hands and severing reality from the warp they are using their Necrons and technology to accomplish the feat. A C’tan can manipulate physical reality, but so can eldar, humans, etc. C’tan can fly around shooting bolts of energy – so can psykers. They just use a form of science beyond the understanding of humans and eldars. No one knows how orks make their tractor beams - no one is calling them gods.

I not saying that they aren’t incredibly powerful, but when compared to the chaos gods who can warp worlds, curse individuals from across the galaxy, and harvest souls they come up short.

Well, we've completely derailed this thread... It's my opinion they're simply two sides of the same coin: the warp and the material. Both consume the souls of the living for pleasure and sustanence and both CAN warp worlds. The Deceiver is the Coyote god, Loki, and quite possibly the Great Harlequin, the Trickster and the Nightbringer the incarnation of Death. The same can be said for the gods of Chaos.

These were the beings that fought against the power of the Old Ones, the givers of life, and their battles were the War in Heaven the Eldar speak of. The Warp itself is a manifestation of this conflict and the forces of Chaos themselves the direct result of the war. Remember that the warp was separate from the physical realm until the souls of the Old One's servants slain in battle coalesced into what are now the three Chaos Gods Khorne, Nurgle, and Tzeentch. These entities themselves will wither and die if the C'Tan complete their goal of destroying psykers that nurture the link between the Warp and the material, and the consumption of all life in the universe.

That's my $.02, but you're certainly entitled to your own.

Several things,

1. The C'tan units we see on the tabletop in 40k are manifestations of the C'tan. A steel hulk called a Necrodermis that some of the energy of a C'tan possesses, NOT the actual C'tan. If you you field an actual C'tan on the battle filed it would cost about 100,000 points and have the following rule: Roll roll a dice after deployment but before the first player turn. On a 1+ the C'tan KILLS every other unit on the board.

2. The as Gavin Thorne said, The C'tan Pre-date the Chaos Gods and exist on an entirely different zone of reality. They are like different sides of a coin.

3. This should be obvious based on the above statements, but if a C'tan somehow walked into the warp it would most definitely NOT be destroyed by lesser demons.

This is just my take on things.

They could fight one of those Apocolypse Titans. I'd pay to see that.

extrenm(54) wrote:1. The C'tan units we see on the tabletop in 40k are manifestations of the C'tan. A steel hulk called a Necrodermis that some of the energy of a C'tan possesses, NOT the actual C'tan. If you you field an actual C'tan on the battle filed it would cost about 100,000 points and have the following rule: Roll roll a dice after deployment but before the first player turn. On a 1+ the C'tan KILLS every other unit on the board.

The Nercodemis contains the entire C’tan, not a fraction. It sounds like you are mistaking C’tan for daemons, which are fractions of their gods. If there is some fluff that led you to suspect that a C’tan can divided up its being then please reference it and you will have my humble apology. There is also no fluff that I am aware of that the C’tan are more powerful out of their suits then inside them. All the fluff that I seen suggest that a C’tan in its natural state is not able to directly influence living forms. Many think that if the necrons were wiped out the c’tan would cease to be a threat, as they could no longer acquire their nercodemis and would have to go back to sucking on stars.

extrenm(54) wrote:2. The as Gavin Thorne said, The C'tan Pre-date the Chaos Gods and exist on an entirely different zone of reality. They are like different sides of a coin.

The black stone fortresses were made to kill the dragon, the most powerful of the C’tan. When confronted with the fortresses the dragon was injured and fled. No species at any known time had a group of ships that could kill Khorne. Having super advance technology or exotic powers does not make you a god – not in the 40k setting. The warp and chaos is directly tied into all aspects of 40K. Space travel, pskers, and spirits all originate from the warp – this is the realm the gods occupy. C’tan are very powerful aliens, but GWS can come up with other aliens even tougher that the C’tan. C’tan suck on stars like leeches, a newly introduced entity could easily play the role of trout to the star leeches (ancestral predator?). They can’t really introduce a new chaos entity that could beat up Khorne.

extrenm(54) wrote:3. This should be obvious based on the above statements, but if a C'tan somehow walked into the warp it would most definitely NOT be destroyed by lesser demons.

The warp can twist and alter massive spaceships and hive ships. C’tan do not possess souls, whether that makes them more or less vulnerable is debatable. In the eye of terror daemon princes can kill and recreate planets on a whim. I have come across nothing in the fluff that suggest C’tan are much more powerful then their rules suggest. Look at the daemon lords in apocalypse - they could take on three C’tan at the same time. Baring in mind that the conflict is occurring in reality, the c’tan’s home field. Put the c’tan in the warp where daemons are many times more powerful and the C’tan are nothing but prey.

Put Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch on a battlefield against every C’tan that ever lived at the peak of their power and the battle would be comparable to have ratlings trying to pull down a warlord titian. Slannesh killed off most of the eldar who were distributed across the galaxy, destroyed many other races, drove nearly every psyker within a 10,000 ligher years mad at the very least, created the eye of terror, and cleared a galaxy wide warp storm which prevented humans from space travel - he is the weakest of the chaos gods. What feat have the C'tan performed that come even close to that?

Gavin Thorne wrote:The Deceiver is the Coyote god, Loki, and quite possibly the Great Harlequin, the Trickster

Despite a somewhat similar M.O. the deceiver is not the laughing god. Harlequin souls are attached to the laughing god, which requires him to have a warp presence. Confusing the deceiver with an eldar god is like saying the nightbringer is the nurgle because they both represent dread and death. Plus there are no necrons in the webway thankfully.

This is turning into a interesting debate.

Ok, Some questions, and some things to say.

Where is the fluff for the black stone fortresses? I am unaware of this information.

Also, I went back and read some of my Necron Codex. I leanred a few things. The Nightbringer was basically the most powerful thing in the physical universe at one time. It destroyed entire star systems it was so powerful. The rules we have for the current nightbringer are after he has been sleeping for millions of years. He is CONSIDERABLY weakened because he has not eaten in so long. Once he feeds and gets back to full strength, its bad news for everything in the warhammer 40,000 universe.

Grunt13, you were right, the entire C'tan is focused and contained in the Necrodermis. They are however, still the most powerful things in the physical universe, based on the Necron Codex, at least when at full strength. Its like they are the physical world equivalents of chaos gods.

The blackstone fortresses are ancient ships in battlefleet gothic. They were occupied by the imperium then were stolen by chaos who figured out how to use them. They are important components of the battle fleet gothic setting and the old eye of terror campaign. The deceiver is hinted at arranging for the fortress to be put in a position where the eldar were unable to use them against the emerging C’tan (he didn’t come out of hiding until they were stolen). Vaul the eldar god or the old ones might have made them and they use weaponized warp energy, the kryptonite of the C’tan.

The nightbringer used his might starship to destroy star systems. The ship is no longer in his possession. Old ones and their minions threw it into the warp were he would never be able to use it again This is more evidence that the warp is dangerous to the C’tan – The nightbringer’s most prized possession is floating around in it and he does not try to go in to retrieve it. The Dragon is the most powerful C’tan by far; the outsider is most likely a distant second.

Khaine defeated the Nightbringer and his entire army with only 100 eldar swordsman (magic swordsman). This was when Khaine was relatively young and undeveloped because the eldar where few and primitive (think sword, bows, and spears). The nightbringer on the other hand was at the height of his power. GWS could pull the old they are building their strength bit and update their capabilities, but I think the rules fairly well represent the C’tan’s power level. After freeing himself he went straight to munching on some stars to rebuild is strength. Also the deceiver has been sneaking around for at least a few hundred years, more likely thousands, and his stats are less then the nightbringer’s.

As for the c’tan’s ability of cutting off the warp from the material realm as proof of their godhood; humans can produce null rods, tools that create an area of psychic void that prevents psyker powers and daemon summonings. In effect they cut the warp off from the material world in a localized area. If humans can already do it on a smaller scale it is not that impressive of a feat for a group of supposed gods commanding the most technologically advanced race in the 40K universe.

And I just turned 50 post-wise
edit I am now "been around the block"

Ok, all of this fluff is really cool, and since all I have been basing my comments off of is the Necron Codex it seems I have been building up the nightbringer too much. But I still want to know something. Where is this fluff that you are talking about? I would Love to read it. The Necron Codex does not mention anything about what you have been saying.

White dwarf had an issue with 3 antidotal eldar stories about the nightbringer, outsider, and dragon. That is where I got the fluff about khaine fighting the nightbringer and the dragon getting hurt by the blackstone fortresses. Don’t remember which one but you can look it up in the white dwarf index site.

The eye of terror campaign had the deceiver reveal that he instigate the battle fleet gothic conflict just to remove the blackstone fortresses from the eldar. During the eye of terror campaign Necrons actually attacked a chaos control fortress and destroyed it, which looked to the imperial navy as a weird rescue by the nercons.

One thing the C’tan did was alter humanity and introduce the pariah gene. The necrons are trying to find the orphan world, which is the culexus temple site. Necrons are always looking for this planet, which is freely flying though the galaxy. They want to harvest and then destroy it so they get all the pariahs in the galaxy – eldar try to stop them.

The Dragon is sleeping in mars. Early tech priest would be influenced by his dreams. This led to the Technological explosion of humanity. He probably is the first machine god and would likely be treated as such if he ever wakes. The deceiver is trying to prevent him from arising. I think the tech priest might be creating a sleeping machine god in the warp through their worship even though the dragon is the inspiration for the entity. The outside was tricked by the laughing god into eating a bunch of C’tan which drove him mad, because the deceiver also convinced the nightbringer to start munching on his buddies many people incorrectly believe they are the same being.

If you are really dedicated to understanding the C’tan read Lovecraft. GWS is in the habit of ripping off their material from mythologies and other literary sources. I actual enjoy that they do this – no shame in copying success. Lovecraft was a writer in the 1930 who wrote about entities in which the C’tan are heavily based. “Call of Cthulhu” is a short story that provides the essences of what GWS is trying to capture with the C’tan.

“That is not dead which can eternal lie, yet with stranger aeons, even Death may die.” And “Whoever speaketh of Cthulhu shall remember that he but seemeth dead, he sleeps, and yet he does not sleep, he has died and yet he is not dead, asleep and dead though he is, he shall rise again. Again it should be shown that” and "In his house at R'lyeh dead Cthulhu waits dreaming." Just to give you a taste what the man was about. GWS ripped off all his material when creating the C’tan.

That’s all I can think of now. I read white dwarf regularly and I remember the material, but forget were the articles were. Hope this helps

Wow, I was unaware of all of this. Thanks for filling me in.

No problem.

Just remembered there was a 40K novel titled Nightbringer. You can guess what it is about. The book was mostly about ultramarines fighting dark eldar, so don't expect a lot of pages dedicated to your favorite C'tan. Talks about his 60 million year hibernation and the lost of his all powerful warship.

There is also a Cain book Under the Ice(?) or something like that which features necrons. I recommend this more due to the fact that the Cain books are the best 40K books produced then that it provides a lot background on the necrons.

Once again if you like the concept of C'tan check out H.P. Lovecraft. He wrote short stories exclusively so its not a large investment on your part just check him out from the library or just wikipedia him and cthulhu.

Caves of Ice is the Ciaphas Cain novel - I'm a fan of these too.

@ OP:

Whoa.
That's a ridiculous statline.
I might justify an amped up MC, but not Gargantuan...

EDIT: That's basically a cheap Hierophant with an Inv. save.

Burning Star IV wrote:@ OP:

Whoa.
That's a ridiculous statline.
I might justify an amped up MC, but not Gargantuan...

EDIT: That's basically a cheap Hierophant with an Inv. save.

All the daemon lords are gargantuan. Like I said before in this post I heavily referenced the three daemon lords when creating the supped up avatar. His durability, offensive capabilities, and point value are similar to them.

Also he is not as nearly as brutal as he is placed with the rest of the army – he doesn’t pop into existence through a champion or deep strike with a bunch of daemons.