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I've been doing a lot of army varients with my Eldar of late and one item that keeps sticking out is my Falcon armament. In 4th, Shuriken Cannon (1 or 2), Scatterlaser and all the other vehicle options seemed to rule the day. Plus, a big part of it was being a taxi.

With the changes in 5th, this build just doesn't seem as productive with 4th edition builds (obvious, right...) Instead, can it perform well enough to the likes of a main battletank? If it moves 6" or less, it can fire all weapons. On paper, putting an EML on it and being able to take 3 S8 shots at 48" seems viable. I've yet to try it out, but have now managed to remove the turret weapon w/o tearing up the turret, so I'll give it a go. I'm looking at putting the Falcons in a mech Eldar styled army, so an Autarch or two may accompany the list so it can remain in reserve against gunlines.

Anyone else still playing with Falcons? If so, what tactics and builds are you all utelizing with them?

I take a missile, stones and holofield. It comes in at 180. I am thinking about taking the underslung shuriken cannon for 10 points. Against hordes I could fire the Missile in plasma mode and then the Cannon and Pulse Laser. Having 3 strength 8 shots coming at the enemy is good though.

Mine have stones, holofield, shuricannon x2: 175 pts. Move 6'' and fire all weapons.

Pulse, shuriken cannon or scatter, holo, stones.

I think in fifth its ok to mix since you are shooting one anyway. This keeps them cheap and if you lose a gun you can use the other to hunt something else.

Also if you sit still you can rape light armor.

Falcons are eminently replaceable in 5th by Fire Prisms.

You cannot safely use them as transports to zoom forward anymore, meltaguns drop them even with holofields.

So they need to sit back and fire, or hover around midfield.

For sitting back, I'd go with pulse/eml/holofield.

For hovering around midfield, I'd go with weustenfux's configuration although if you have the points upgrading to scatter lasers isn't a bad thing.

I've got one Fire Prism at this point. I've not been real impressed with Fire Prisms in 5th; too easy to get a weapon destroyed result. I know it's the same probability as 4th was, but for some reason, I see a lot of gunless Fire Prisms.

I've run the Falcon with two Shuriken Cannons, and it's been ok. For whatever reason, getting past heavy armor has been my weakness. So, I've been re-examining my army configs (and to simply play something different with my Eldar).

Staying at range is a big factor with the Falcons. I've finished one now with the EML. I'm painting the second one up tonight.

Spirit Stones; worth the extra 10 points? With a mech list, this starts to quickly add up.

Spirit stones I think are only worth it for tanks moving near the enemy.

I don't care if they stun me on my backfield really.

Gunless fire prisms are an issue, that's why I take stones so they can tank shock until they're blown up....cause they WILL be gunless. lol

I playtested Fire Prims and the amount of weapon-destroyed results really hurts. That's why I probably switch back to Falcons with Fire Dragons inside. As Stelek said, hovering around midfield...

For my 2000 point list, it's coming in with 4 Wave Serpents, 2 Falcons and 1 Fire Prism. If I've got points left over, some Vypers will be put in. I've pretty much decided to arm both Falcons with EML and Holofield. I'm still waffling over Spirit Stones.

Now, I'm just hoping I don't regret running the Fire Prism.

Fire Prisms are not perfect in every game, but when you face drop armies you will never regret bringing it even if it's only for it's psychological effect.

Sarigar wrote:I've got one Fire Prism at this point... too easy to get a weapon destroyed result.

You've solved your own problem there. You only have one, which is why they are rendered useless so quickly. You need 3, w/Holo-Fields, sitting in 4+ cover. Whenever one can't shoot, it links fire with another.

Remember:

One is a target.
Two is a problem.
Three is a nightmare.

This applies to virtually every type of tank in the game.

BYE

3 Prisms can be very nasty indeed.

If you are going to take them, though - do it properly - take the full range of appropriate upgrades.

Otherwise - Falcons with EML's are very useful if combined with SCannons - gives you anti horde if you suddenly run into 100 orks - well, at least more anti horde then another BL or something.

Same with 2x EML on the Waveserpents if you are running those as well.

HBMC: Prisms that can't fire can't link fire either, unfortunately. The FAQ cleared this up.

In 4th, I used Prisms that aren't able to shoot as tempting targets or tank-shockers, as I'd rather have that Prism taking fire than a transport. With Troops being even more important in this edition, I'm even more gung-ho with taping the "Shoot Me" signs to the Prisms (except in Annihilation missions). They're vital early in the game, less so later (except for tank-shocking).

But I still think 2 is probably the max number to invest in for 1850 or under games if you're playing Mech. If you're not playing pure-mech, HBMC's advice about taking 3 is a good idea, as redundancy/resiliency and presenting multiple similar targets are always good things.

Back on-topic, I was beginning to regret modeling underslung shuricannons directly onto my Falcons when I learned of the defensive weapon rules. Then I tried facing hordes with mech Eldar. Now I'm sure that the extra 10 points per model (70-90 for my whole army) is more than worth it to take out 6-12 more Orks per turn... especially if they're lootas!

Don't forget that Prisms can 'combine fire' and still fire their underslung shuricannons at another target. It's a neat trick.

I meant can't fire as in it doesn't have LOS to any targets (because it's sitting in cover and isn't moving) can help fire with other Prisms that can see targets.

BYE

The rule of 3 applies as always. If bringing tanks bring lots, single AV targets makes for big troubles. That said, im no fan of the new falcon sadly.

Why has noone talked about the 60" (or 72" with a move) range of the Fire Prism? What about the BS4 with the new "never miss" template rules sure they still scatter but if you bank shot you can get a reroll. Good for both anti-armor or anti-troops only better banked. 195 for all upgrades less the cannon.....not bad. So you get a weapon destroyed....blows but with ramming.....24" move plus 12" Star Engines 36/3 = 12 tank +1 Armor above 10 +2. Grand total S15 hit....auto pen!!! Ok...ok...say it caps out at S10 still better than crying about the main gun being taken out. If we see tons of Eldar Star Engines ramming remember where you heard it....right here baby.

Falcon who?

You cannot star engine ram and it's max S9, and good luck being exactly 24" away to get it.

Why can't you use Star Engine and where does it say max S9?

Easy to get a strength 10 ram.

2 for armor

7 for moving 21" (easy to eyeball)

1 for being a tank


As far as fire prism upgrades... I think because crew shaken completely neuters the "shooting" of the tank, I think the holo-field isn't the best upgrade for the prism. I think that is a 'falcon only' for me nowadays. Not that I don't like not dying, but when you are taking 3, thats 105... enough for something else thats pretty damn good. When you compare the 115 point fire prism to the hellhound, and realize how much more you get for the same cost, then it becomes pretty clear how good a naked prism is. Spirit stones keep the option to ram/block alive unless you die, it is a 10 point 'insurance policy' some people think insurance is for cowards... heh, I don't think its necessary.

If you load a falcon right, you'll want all sorts of upgrades. If you don't have a specific unit in mind to transport, you should always take the 60 point upgrade that makes the falcon a scoring unit. Once you are cruising around as a scoring unit, holo-fields, spirit stones, even star engines could come into play.

As far as the weapons load-outs. I am fond of EML/shuriken catapult, this is the all defensive shooting while on the move, or three strength 8 shots when tank hunting. scatter laser/shuriken catapult, Cheap, good amount of high quality shooting... this load out really wants to be shooting at toughness 6 targets. And standing still from long range. and scatter laser/shuriken cannon. If you feel like getting closer to your target and spending more points, this one is great for monstrous creature hunting. It is a good all purpose infantry killer too, but those pulse lasers are really over-kill when talking about toughness 4.

Shep wrote:
If you don't have a specific unit in mind to transport, you should always take the 60 point upgrade that makes the falcon a scoring unit.

This being a 5-man unit of dire avengers? That's brilliant, Shep.

Stelek wrote:
You cannot safely use them as transports to zoom forward anymore...

I've seen you refer to this more than once (do I detect a note of bitterness ), Stelek. I have a question.

Is it because, with the "glancing only" rule removed in 5th ed, the falcons/serpents can't weather a turn of fire at point-blank range before the passengers disembark/move/fleet/assault?

Or is this something that you believed was also true in 4th ed?

I'm interested in the answer because I did routinely use falcons & serpents safely as transports for assault troops in 4th edition. I haven't had a chance to try it yet in 5th and want to find out if it has changed. It seems like maybe losing the entanglement rules would actually make them work better, but like I say I haven't tried it yet.

Shep wrote:As far as fire prism upgrades... I think because crew shaken completely neuters the "shooting" of the tank, I think the holo-field isn't the best upgrade for the prism. I think that is a 'falcon only' for me nowadays. Not that I don't like not dying, but when you are taking 3, thats 105... enough for something else thats pretty damn good. When you compare the 115 point fire prism to the hellhound, and realize how much more you get for the same cost, then it becomes pretty clear how good a naked prism is.

I think I'm convinced. I've beena knee-jerk upgrader for all of 4th, but now I'm going to try saving the points.

As far as the weapons load-outs. I am fond of EML/shuriken catapult, this is the all defensive shooting while on the move, or three strength 8 shots when tank hunting. scatter laser/shuriken catapult, Cheap, good amount of high quality shooting... this load out really wants to be shooting at toughness 6 targets. And standing still from long range.

Also convinced there- thanks for spelling it out. I've never fitted anything but scatter lasers, but the defensive fire situation changes things. I'm also having anti-tank capacity problems when I don't bring Dragons, and I would like to learn to live without them. The extra shot might help there.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Stelek wrote:
You cannot safely use them as transports to zoom forward anymore...

I've seen you refer to this more than once (do I detect a note of bitterness ), Stelek. I have a question.

Nope not bitter. I rarely did it in 4th edition. Being close to point blank anti-tank and in range of every other bit of anti-tank in an army isn't my idea of smart.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Is it because, with the "glancing only" rule removed in 5th ed, the falcons/serpents can't weather a turn of fire at point-blank range before the passengers disembark/move/fleet/assault?

The Serpents survive better than the Falcons do.

Falcons make you roll 2 times, but since Meltaguns are usually what is firing at you they almost always:

Penetrate
Are +1 on the table
Hit you twice

If you go flat out, any 3+ means you're dead unless you also invested in vectored engines.

So IMO Falcons need to stay away.

Serpents can go close (or shall i say, CLOSER) but not for long. Sustained meltafire will drag them down too, although it isn't as dangerous because they only get 1 dice for armor pen so 33% of the time you ignore it and 16.7% of the time it's not that big a deal.

So Serpents can hang at midfield and not worry as much, which is good because that is their role now and the Falcons are fire support in the back.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Or is this something that you believed was also true in 4th ed?

I always ran the vehicles the way they are being run in 5th.

Anytime I moved my falcons into LOS, they got dropped. Sometimes it took alot of firepower, but often as not it didn't.

Dice are dice, and statistics are statistics. I don't confuse the two.

Some players believe (literally) that you need X shots to down a vehicle every single game.

I lost most of my falcons (and my single prism) by end of turn 2.

Only one vehicle (a fire prism) survived the entire game.

And I tabled my enemies in almost all my games too. lol

Flavius Infernus wrote:I'm interested in the answer because I did routinely use falcons & serpents safely as transports for assault troops in 4th edition. I haven't had a chance to try it yet in 5th and want to find out if it has changed. It seems like maybe losing the entanglement rules would actually make them work better, but like I say I haven't tried it yet.

You CAN do this, but where are you getting the points for it?

To bring Harlies, you need to buy another transport--either a Falcon, which makes them combat ineffective; or a serpent and that means the original squad for it.

You can bring banshees and scorpions instead, and possibly storm guardians, but really...you just cannot run a dedicated assault army with Eldar without resorting to jetbike seer councils.

There aren't enough, and anyone who tells you 30 T3 guys with at BEST a 3+ save is going to pwn anyone, well make sure you laugh at them.

Thanks for the replies, Stelek.

I kind of *am* the guy who says 30 T3 guys can pwn opponents unfortunately. Or at least they could in 4th. Banshees, Scorpions, Harlies in a falcon in a dedicated assault army, worked fine in 4th edition. You really only had to weather one turn of fire--at point blank range--losing one or two grav tanks at the most, and then you're into their lines and it was mop-up after that.

The game has changed, though. Points denial was a key component, and doesn't really work the same. I guess I'll just have to try it out.

I used tactics to beat the 24" holo rush and disembark, pretty much from the get go. It's easy to do.

I was even kind enough to teach it to all the guys I beat at Vegas last year. Well not the one loser who ran away to cry in the bathroom cause I beat his internets army, but whatever. lol

I would be interested in hearing how to beat the 24" (and 36") holo rush and disembark.

I don't want to get into a p^*&@*ing contest about who did what at which tournament, but obviously many of my opponents at Adepticon and 'ard Boyz in 2007 weren't familiar with your tactics.

[edit]

Just to make sure we're on the same page, I mean the Eldar assault maneuver described in this thread.

Anarchyman99 wrote:Why can't you use Star Engine and where does it say max S9?

It isn't max Strength 9. I don't know where that came from!

You can't use Star Engines, though. Tank Shocking, and thus Ramming, can only be done in the Movement phase. Star Engines are activated in the Shooting Phase, which you'll note is not the Movement Phase.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I meant can't fire as in it doesn't have LOS to any targets (because it's sitting in cover and isn't moving) can help fire with other Prisms that can see targets.

BYE

Locally, getting LOS to something hasn't been an issue. I've mainly played against multi Fire Prism armies and they just have not impressed me. First time I get to fire, a Fire Prism is losing a gun, then I move on to the next Fire Prism. Typically, by turn 3, I'm not worrying about Fire Prism shooting, whether it's one or three Fire Prisms I'm facing. Normally, I'd agree that units only get better by having multiples of them. This is one particular case I'm not sure will fit the bill.

In my particular case, I'll be running 7 skimmer tanks and keeping everything in reserve from the beginning. My hopes is to run the line where it is the weakest, thus oversaturating an area with armor 12 with initially very little to defend against. The Falcons will be able to move 6" and fire 3 S8 shots from 48". One Fire Prism seems to provide a decent synergy. I'll know after Saturday's RTT.

Good discussion, btw.

MinMax wrote:

Anarchyman99 wrote:Why can't you use Star Engine and where does it say max S9?

It isn't max Strength 9. I don't know where that came from!

You can't use Star Engines, though. Tank Shocking, and thus Ramming, can only be done in the Movement phase. Star Engines are activated in the Shooting Phase, which you'll note is not the Movement Phase.

It just says "It may an additional 12" in lieu of shooting, but troops may not embark or disembark that turn." Thats the last line. It never says that the additional 12" is moved in the shooting phase. Also if you think about it all embarking and disembarking happens in the movement phase, so yet another reason that the 12" is in the movement phase....not the shooting.