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What is the ruling on this? If I have models like the old terminators with the 25mm can I use them or do I have to strip them off? Same for things like older juggernauts vs new bloodcrushers

I've seen nothing official on it, and internet opinions vary to both sides of the issue.

I am of the feeling that everything should meet CURRENT basing standards, regardless of what base size the model ORIGINALLY came with.

Eric

The "official" stand point is what's in the rules.

BASES
Citadel miniatures are normally supplied with a plastic
base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before
they can be used in the game.

Some players like to mount their models on impressive
scenic bases. As mounting your models on differentsized
bases might affect the way they interact with the
rules, make sure before the game that your opponent
does not mind this.

So if the model came with a 25 mm base that's what you should use. If it came with a 40 mm base that's what you should use.

Using older models can be advantageous, just take a look at the ork trukk.

I don't think anyone would argue if you put your old terminators on 40 mm bases though.

Webbe wrote:The "official" stand point is what's in the rules.

BASES
Citadel miniatures are normally supplied with a plastic
base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before
they can be used in the game.

Some players like to mount their models on impressive
scenic bases. As mounting your models on differentsized
bases might affect the way they interact with the
rules, make sure before the game that your opponent
does not mind this.

So if the model came with a 25 mm base that's what you should use. If it came with a 40 mm base that's what you should use.

Using older models can be advantageous, just take a look at the ork trukk.

I don't think anyone would argue if you put your old terminators on 40 mm bases though.

The problem is taht the rules do not address how to handle models that used to be supplied with a certain sized base but are now supplied with a larger one.
I've never seen atournament opt in favor of, for example, 25mm bases for termies.
I've seen the specifically rule against it, and I've seen where they just didn't address it... but I've yet to see any specifically allow it.

I just got 20 metal Chaos Termies in a trade and I'll be rebasing them all to 40mm bases... Now, I just wish they had slotta-40mm bases.

Eric

What about my GorkaMorka Grots and Orks that came on the smaller than 20mm jellybean bases? Should I be basing them on those?

What about an ork boy that is converted up to a Big mek? Big Meks come on 40mm now but ork boys come on 25mm. Should the base be the size of the model out of the box/blister or the base of the model it intends to be? I have 25mm Big meks models with KFF, since the current stock big mek with KFF is a 40mm round, does that mean my Big Meks made of ork boyz is undersized?

Don't even get me into 'bikes' when bike bases are officially released. I do not look forward to tearing off all my scenic custom bike bases that took a lot of hard work to make.

I totally understand the need 'base rules' (I saw the chaos cultist army on 40mm bases) but I think that the somewhat vague rules is a fight, especially for people who have old armies or work hard on an army and show up and are told 'your character or unit is not base legal'.

They should have put official base sizes in a WD article or in every codex. And given official leeway for centerpiece models. I seriously doubt if people put a 25mms character on a 40mm that the game is irreparably harmed but if someone puts spine gaunts on 60mm bases we got issues.

(I am waiting until September for my first tourney in 5th to see what they say because I know I have Nobs on 40mms and Big Meks on 25mms and warboss on a bike on a 60mm superbase)

The rules say if your base is non-standard, agree it with your opponent before playing.

If your opponent is the kind of toerag who says the old 25mm Terminators can't be used, because it's not a legal base size, just find another opponent. It's a waste of breath arguing with such people.

All my Terminators are on 25mm bases because they are old skool, and my Tau stealth suits are on 40mm bases because they fit.

MagickalMemories wrote:
I just got 20 metal Chaos Termies in a trade and I'll be rebasing them all to 40mm bases... Now, I just wish they had slotta-40mm bases.

Eric

Even better, glue them still attached to the bases on top of the existing one and use greenstuff to smooth it out - it makes them about the same height and they work really well.

edit @ killcrazy - I don't care about pickup games - most of those are with the same group of guys and we are all pretty relaxed about it, I just like to be tourney legal and picked up a bunch of old juggers in trade...

nkelsch wrote:What about my GorkaMorka Grots and Orks that came on the smaller than 20mm jellybean bases? Should I be basing them on those?

Their from a different game so it's hardly a fair comparison. I'd re-base them since their not even the correct shape (round) for 40k.
The Termies should be fine though. It is what they came with and they are a base type in 40k.

Apone wrote:

nkelsch wrote:What about my GorkaMorka Grots and Orks that came on the smaller than 20mm jellybean bases? Should I be basing them on those?

Their from a different game so it's hardly a fair comparison. I'd re-base them since their not even the correct shape (round) for 40k.
The Termies should be fine though. It is what they came with and they are a base type in 40k.

They sold metal gorkamorka grots on blister in 3rd edition with jellybean bases so they are valid and current models until around January. I would say 90% of the current up-to-date grot models for 40k are gorkamorka. How easy would it be to say 'grots should be 25mm round bases' or 'terminators 40mm round bases'.

The point is: Ambiguity = bad, Clarity = good

It would take someone all of 26 minutes to write down a list of each armies 'types' of models and assign acceptable base sizes to them and stick it in WD. This is where they could clarify units that are frequently seen on multiple base sizes like Terminators and Nobs. They could also address character bases (I personally liked the Up one basesize for characters rule)

The problem with pontificating about termies being based to current 40mm standards is that they are still supplied with 25 mm bases.

Plastic termie loyalist kit? They come with both. (argue all you want about what they should be based on, but the fact remains that they include both bases and the rules state to base them on what are included)

Older metal termies? They still only have 25mm bases included.

Kilkrazy wrote:If your opponent is the kind of toerag who says the old 25mm Terminators can't be used, because it's not a legal base size, just find another opponent. It's a waste of breath arguing with such people.

That is the most sound advice in this thread.

nkelsch wrote:

Apone wrote:

nkelsch wrote:What about my GorkaMorka Grots and Orks that came on the smaller than 20mm jellybean bases? Should I be basing them on those?

Their from a different game so it's hardly a fair comparison. I'd re-base them since their not even the correct shape (round) for 40k.
The Termies should be fine though. It is what they came with and they are a base type in 40k.

They sold metal gorkamorka grots on blister in 3rd edition with jellybean bases so they are valid and current models until around January. I would say 90% of the current up-to-date grot models for 40k are gorkamorka. How easy would it be to say 'grots should be 25mm round bases' or 'terminators 40mm round bases'.

The point is: Ambiguity = bad, Clarity = good

It would take someone all of 26 minutes to write down a list of each armies 'types' of models and assign acceptable base sizes to them and stick it in WD. This is where they could clarify units that are frequently seen on multiple base sizes like Terminators and Nobs. They could also address character bases (I personally liked the Up one basesize for characters rule)

I agree but then again this punishes people who model using creative bases.

The base size clause in the rules are a nod to the douchenozzles who simply MUST have the correct base size listed in the rules. Notice how it doesnt really adress the issue clearly? Its because it isnt an issue at all. Its GW's way of addressing it without really addressing it.

If you are clearly (though this is always subjective) abusing the modeling issues in a game, then you should be ignored.

I have a necron lord based on a 40mm base. Is this an abuse of the rules? Its arguable but really a non issue.

And thats the point. Its a non issue. People who incessantly argue what you should base your models on are pratts.

In your case with grots, I couldn't see anyone having a leg to stand on telling you that you must rebase them to 25mm bases. In fact you lose out by keeping them on the old football bases because blast templates chew that unit up.

The major problem with base size standards is that there isn't a central list of what goes on what.

I started playing with the 3rd edition CSM codex using terminators and obliterators on 25mm bases because that's what they came with and I didn't know any better. Just looking now, the terminator marines on the inside front cover are on 25mm bases standing next to a lord on a medium base. Looking at the 4th edition book, all of the terminators are shown on medium bases. I didn't even notice until one of the guys at the game store pointed suggested that they have a bag of medium bases in stock.

Luckily in that case all I had to do was glue the old bases onto the 40mm round, but about my first and second edition calvary based beasts of slaanesh now that the new models are on the 40mm round bases?

I won't rebase my Termies because I need them on 25mm bases for Space Hulk.

Hellfury wrote:Plastic termie loyalist kit? They come with both. (argue all you want about what they should be based on, but the fact remains that they include both bases and the rules state to base them on what are included)

Well, that argument at best gets you 4 out of every 5 termies on 25mm bases...

why not just get a 40mm base cut a 25mm hole in it and slot them in if the person your playing against is a c**t

Your statement answers it: why bother playing against that type of person? If it's that big an issue for your opponent, I can only imagine the issues that will arise during the game.

yeah...
Tri that's a bit strong. and sounds like more effort than rebasing.

the extra 15mm doesn't seem like much, but it adds up to alot:

Blast templates look to hit your base, if you use a smaller base you more likely to avoid the hit.

When your making circles for a DS formation, it can matter lots!

in combat: how many 25mm bases can get into combat with your Terminators.

When terminator are trying to assault something like troops standing on a building, the larger base may prohibit the terminator from finding a space to stand in. if he can't get on the floor he can't attack...

and so on...

So unless you have a good reason for using the smaller bases (sPace hulk? )
I say your being more of a sport if you upgrade.

I play people that have the old size bases and it doesn't bother me, but i think it doesn't take that much effort to rebase.
and terminators look better on the larger bases...

PanIC...

Panic wrote:Blast templates look to hit your base, if you use a smaller base you more likely to avoid the hit.

Actually, larger bases are better against blasts, as they result in a wider coherency spread.

When terminator are trying to assault something like troops standing on a building, the larger base may prohibit the terminator from finding a space to stand in. if he can't get on the floor he can't attack...

You can't assault models in a building. Only in Ruins.

Panic wrote:

When terminator are trying to assault something like troops standing on a building, the larger base may prohibit the terminator from finding a space to stand in. if he can't get on the floor he can't attack...

Actually, the rules do address this one. You can't be denied your ability to assault an enemy simply because they're on a floor that doesn't have space for your base. You put your guy the floor below and cope.

I play people that have the old size bases and it doesn't bother me, but i think it doesn't take that much effort to rebase.

That depends. You can't actually buy a bag of 40mm bases anymore, and I'm not spending $30 for three bags of 'random base assortment' in order to make someone else happy about my terminator basing. That's $30 that's either going to beer, or more models, whichever comes first.

solkan wrote:The major problem with base size standards is that there isn't a central list of what goes on what.

There is no problem with base size standards, as the rule says "what it comes on".

As Helfury said, it's a non issue. If your opponent has a problem with it, play someone else.
It's a game after all.

hey Redbeard, I dont mind if you got smaller bases, with that money you and I can have a beer and a laugh.

Well, I'm sort of curious on the basing thing, as my models come with both round and square bases. The rules don't state they have to be round anymore, and on the square ones I can use the daemons for fantasy as well. And it does sort of matter what you're opponent think if you're thinking about bringing it to a tournament, and they get disallowed because people think they should be on round only, or of a different size. Most tournaments don't allow you to choose opponents because you don't like the one you're given.

insaniak wrote:

Hellfury wrote:Plastic termie loyalist kit? They come with both. (argue all you want about what they should be based on, but the fact remains that they include both bases and the rules state to base them on what are included)

Well, that argument at best gets you 4 out of every 5 termies on 25mm bases...

laugh all you want, it is still a valid argument.

Hellfury wrote:laugh all you want, it is still a valid argument.

Borderline valid, but with the potential to get very, very silly.

What if your opponent fields their rhino on a 25mm base, because it came in a battleforce with that base? Try getting into base contact, or measuring to it...

Or the inverse, your opponent insisting that your rhino isn't legal, because it isn't on one of the 25mm bases that were supplied with it in the Battleforce.

And I say 'borderline' because the fact that the model comes in the same box as a particular base doesn't mean that base is the one supplied for that model.

The rules say that the model must be glued to the base it is supplied with, not to any base that happens to come in the same box.


Having said all that, I don't care in the slightest what size base an opponent fields his models on. I'm picking at the argument, not at the situation

I've always felt that you should keep current on base sizes. Why should I be penalized for wanting newer looking terminators when you have the smaller 25mm based ones. To me it is kind of like a codex over the rule book. Rule book tells us in cases on inconsistency, go with the dex. I am more of a stickler on rules if it's a tournament; no one person should have an advantage over anyone else.

If we start breaking down and bending rules instead of fixing them... what comes next?

If you play me I'll supply you with the 40mm bases, temporarily.

Datadep5 wrote:If you play me I'll supply you with the 40mm bases, temporarily.

And good luck having a tourney judge rule on your side consistently, forcing your opponent to use those 40mm bases.

Then they need to rule in the codex or WD something that says "A Model or character Mega armor/Terminator armor must be based on 40mm" as 'bases they are supplied with' has flaws both ways (models undersized bases and oversized bases)

I have Terminators on 25mm bases, which might be consider cheating because it gives me some kind of unfair advantage that they are smaller than modern, and I have Tau Stealth suits on 40mm bases, which might be considered cheating because it gives me some kind of unfair advantage because they are larger than my other Steath Suits on 25mm bases. Which one is wrong?

I can argue the Termies were supplied with those bases (which they were), and the Stealths have been upgraded to scenic bases.

Isn't it just a matter of players being sensible? The rule is clearly intended to stop me rebasing my Piranhas on 12 inch wide bases, or my Hammerheads on 1 inch wide, not to stop me using my Space Hulk Termies.

Any decent Tournament will recognise this and put it in the FAQ.

In Theory:

Larger bases give you an advantage against shooting (Unit coherency, templates, LOS blocking)

Smaller bases give you an advantage in Assault (more models in BtB for outgoing attacks, less models in BtB for incoming attacks)

I put all nobs with Powerklaws on 40mms to match the mega-armor nobz. It allows me to model extra poses and keeps the old metal nobs from tipping over. The only pose the new nobs can do is 'smelly armpit' hand raise so they don't tip over. I have been aware that my nobs are technically at a disadvantage with larger bases and I am ok with that.

Somnicide wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
I just got 20 metal Chaos Termies in a trade and I'll be rebasing them all to 40mm bases... Now, I just wish they had slotta-40mm bases.

Eric

Even better, glue them still attached to the bases on top of the existing one and use greenstuff to smooth it out - it makes them about the same height and they work really well.

edit @ killcrazy - I don't care about pickup games - most of those are with the same group of guys and we are all pretty relaxed about it, I just like to be tourney legal and picked up a bunch of old juggers in trade...

Well, to begin with, very few are glued to the bases and most of the ones that are can be easily removed.
Additionally, I don't want to waste the greenstuff for something like that AND I don't like the look of models on mounds.

I'll actually be modelling them all on "rocky outcropping" looking bases with pins, most likely.


Eric

Redbeard wrote:
That depends. You can't actually buy a bag of 40mm bases anymore, and I'm not spending $30 for three bags of 'random base assortment' in order to make someone else happy about my terminator basing. That's $30 that's either going to beer, or more models, whichever comes first.

I don't know why Games Workshop makes it so hard to find online, but they are for sale listed under Painting and Tools, Modeling Supplies. 25 bases for $5. Whether any distributors are going to bother stocking them is a different matter, I suppose.