Competative Black Templars list

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**Swordbreaker**

Greetings! I have recently returned to 40K with the introduction of 5E after a several year hiatus. I've decided this would be a good opportunity to star anew, with a new army for a new Edition. I've been looking at playing Black Templars. I really enjoy tournament play so I am looking for a competitive army. I am wanting to keep my army around the tournament point levels, and not collect more than about 2000pts worth.

This list is designed for 1850 points, but it's still a bit under points as I have not yet decided on all the options (which is why I have not included points costs). I am concerned that there are just not enough Marines in this list, but it's hard to base a force around dual LRCs and have points for much else, which makes me feel that maybe this is just a middling level BT list and not really competitive.

Emporer's Champion: vow Accept Any Odds.
The vow to get preferred enemy in 5E is just too good for me to pass up. An entire assault themed army that falls forward and gets to re-roll failed to hits? Yes Please!

Marshal: with iron halo, pair of lightning claws, and terminator honors.
I opted for a Marshal because since I am already re-rolling hits this makes the Chaplin a bit redundant. Since BTs don't have vet sergeants I think his leadership bonus will come in as a big help. I am still a bit torn on how to have this guy set up, as it would depend on some of the other units in the army. The idea is to have one IC in each LRC, but with the new mission rules I know there will always be some game at a tournament where I will only get one HQ IC starting on the table. So my alternate plans would be to give him a jump pack (if I took an assault squad) or a bike (if I took bikes), and possibly arm him with a PW and PP.

Crusader Squad in LRC x2: 10 Initiates, power fist, flamer, BPs & CCWs, in a LRC.
Two identical squads ridding in LRCS, the core of my army. I would take neophytes, but I'd mainly be using them to fill out any remaining points. I went with a power fist because even though it gets one less attack than a power weapon, it is much more likely to wound, and it gives the squads the ability to take down MCs or vehicles.

Crusader Squad in Razorback: 6 Initiates in a Razorback.
This squad is meant to sit back and hold one the objects on my side of the table. The Razorback has a TL Lascannon with a Machine Spirit. I am not yet sure if I want to set the squad up for volume of fire or go las/plas. I was thinking las/plas as their purpose is to sit back and snipe things like armor and transports so my LRC squads can get to the guys inside.

Bike Squad: 5 man bike squad withan Attack Bike with Heavy Bolter.
The more I think about it the more I think of not giving this squad any weapons upgrades at all. I see them as flanking harassers to assist the LRC squads, spraying down targets with their bolter fire. If I took anything I was thinking either power weapons or plasma rifles.

Predator Annihilator: with sponson Lascannons and Machine Spirit.
This army tends to lack long range AT, so I figured this would be a good addition. No the Multimeltas on the LRC do not count, the LRCs will be busy playing lawnmower with the enemy infantry. I felt giving it the Machine Spirit upgrade means I can now move, firing a sponson at BS4 and the twin linked Lascannon at the BS5, so the Predator will actually be able to move around some and still be effective.

**Burning Star IV**

I like this list. I like it a lot. There are a few things I would personally change, however.

For one, I would add 4 Neophytes to each of the squads in the Crusaders. That gives you some bullet catching potential if your LRC goes down, which is always a possibility.

Next, I would squeeze the size of the Lazerback squad to 5, and add a lascannon. By doing this, you can better shield that unit with your Lazerback, and also add some long range power.

The attack bikes I'm not sold on, mainly because they are the only naked infantry unit that will be getting close to the enemy, and so are unlikely to make it through the enemy's fire lines. Your LRCs are going to be moving 12" a turn anyways, so that's speed you aren't really lacking.

The Predator is good. It will be relatively safe because the LRCs will exhaust a lot of the enemy anti-tank fire. If not, then your LRC squads will make it to the enemy lines without a doubt.

Remember that this list revolves around those two LRCs, so you will live or die by them. With some fidgeting in the list, this could be a winner.

Btw, my frequent opponent runs a list similar to this, but instead uses 2 Vindis to support the LRCs... yikes!

**HotSoup**

Note: I am trying something different for replying to posts. My comments on each thing will be written in orange, in the quote box, directly under the text. I think this may be easier then quoting everything continously. Also, I am the friend of Burning Star who runs the Vindi+LRC list. Has lost one game, and in that I had bad luck and vindied myself. I would say this is one of the best BT list types out there. Also, as far as I know, Grand Tournament is now 1750p, so that is the general tourney list points you want. Most will be in intervals of 250p from 1000 to 2500p, Just a heads up.

Swordbreaker wrote:Greetings! I have recently returned to 40K with the introduction of 5E after a several year hiatus. I've decided this would be a good opportunity to star anew, with a new army for a new Edition. I've been looking at playing Black Templars. I really enjoy tournament play so I am looking for a competitive army. I am wanting to keep my army around the tournament point levels, and not collect more than about 2000pts worth.

This list is designed for 1850 points, but it's still a bit under points as I have not yet decided on all the options (which is why I have not included points costs). I am concerned that there are just not enough Marines in this list, but it's hard to base a force around dual LRCs and have points for much else, which makes me feel that maybe this is just a middling level BT list and not really competitive.

It is a very competitive build, when done right. As you said, there isn't a lot of man power, so you cannot waste points on useless/ineffective units. Your list making and placement of your armor(Which should all that is on the field to make Anti-Inf Useless until you are already in combat) makes or breaks this army.

Emporer's Champion: vow Accept Any Odds.
The vow to get preferred enemy in 5E is just too good for me to pass up. An entire assault themed army that falls forward and gets to re-roll failed to hits? Yes Please!

Okay, please, it's not Fall Forward, if you intend on actually playing BT, at least make sure you call it by its current name. Righteous Zeal, ect. In the LRC list RZ'ing isn't that big of an advantage, though it is helpful. And yes, re-rolls are awesome. Enjoy that.

Marshal: with iron halo, pair of lightning claws, and terminator honors.
I opted for a Marshal because since I am already re-rolling hits this makes the Chaplin a bit redundant. Since BTs don't have vet sergeants I think his leadership bonus will come in as a big help. I am still a bit torn on how to have this guy set up, as it would depend on some of the other units in the army. The idea is to have one IC in each LRC, but with the new mission rules I know there will always be some game at a tournament where I will only get one HQ IC starting on the table. So my alternate plans would be to give him a jump pack (if I took an assault squad) or a bike (if I took bikes), and possibly arm him with a PW and PP.

Two issues with this. A. With the iron halo, he costs more then a chap, and with the small amount of squads, Rites of Battle is rather useless. Fearless+Directing Zeal is a better buy as far as rules go. The chap is not redundant or useless, just not a no brainer as before. It now depends on the list, and in this list the Chap is the better character. He's the better CC powerhouse. Give him a power fist if you must, you can switch when you want to. Also, bionics. Great character. Now, I feel both Assault Squads and Bike Squads ruin this type of list. It's main advantage is that enemy Anti-Inf is completely useless until you want to charge him. Why ruin that by adding an expensive bike or assault sqaud that will just get shot to hell by every Anti-Inf gun he has? Its a massive, useless point sink.

Crusader Squad in LRC x2: 10 Initiates, power fist, flamer, BPs & CCWs, in a LRC.
Two identical squads ridding in LRCS, the core of my army. I would take neophytes, but I'd mainly be using them to fill out any remaining points. I went with a power fist because even though it gets one less attack than a power weapon, it is much more likely to wound, and it gives the squads the ability to take down MCs or vehicles.

At least put in 4 neophytes. You can drop the Bike squad, as it is completely useless and a massive target in this type of list. Explained more above and below. Otherwise, good choice. Again, put in 4 neo's in each squad.

Crusader Squad in Razorback: 6 Initiates in a Razorback.
This squad is meant to sit back and hold one the objects on my side of the table. The Razorback has a TL Lascannon with a Machine Spirit. I am not yet sure if I want to set the squad up for volume of fire or go las/plas. I was thinking las/plas as their purpose is to sit back and snipe things like armor and transports so my LRC squads can get to the guys inside.

Lazerback is too expensive, PotMS isn't worth it. I also like Dreads over anything else for AT in this type of list, but to each his own. Go Las/Plas is you take it at all. Though I would recommend a nice Venerable Dread+Tank Hunters, ML+Las. Same points, about and eats tanks alive.

Bike Squad: 5 man bike squad withan Attack Bike with Heavy Bolter.
The more I think about it the more I think of not giving this squad any weapons upgrades at all. I see them as flanking harassers to assist the LRC squads, spraying down targets with their bolter fire. If I took anything I was thinking either power weapons or plasma rifles.

The main weak-point in the army. It will get hit with all of the AT your enemy has. It will die, very quickly. It will probably not make up its points in 9 out of 10 of the games you play. Drop it, take more neophytes, and A vindi/Sniper Dread if you have the points. This is a major point sink, you cannot afford it in this type of list.

Predator Annihilator: with sponson Lascannons and Machine Spirit.
This army tends to lack long range AT, so I figured this would be a good addition. No the Multimeltas on the LRC do not count, the LRCs will be busy playing lawnmower with the enemy infantry. I felt giving it the Machine Spirit upgrade means I can now move, firing a sponson at BS4 and the twin linked Lascannon at the BS5, so the Predator will actually be able to move around some and still be effective.

Also too expensive. Drop PotMS. Also, you are wrong on the effects of PotMS. If you move, you can shoot one las at normal BS(BS4), and one at BS2. You aren't moving a pred. Again, drop PotMS. With the points, get more Sniper Dreads/Preds. Or Vindis, those work really well. Especially with PotMS. All your tanks(Except fire support) and move and fire. No matter what your enemy does. That will make them rather mad, I tell you. Or, more sniper Dreads/Preds. I like Sniper Dreads at this point more then AT preds because Dreads can move and fire both weapons without penalty, preds cannot. Its more mobile. Whatever you want though.

**Swordbreaker**

I really like the colored text way of replying to the OP, it works great!

Thinking about this army and how the first few turns would go I realize that yes, a bike or assault squad is going to be a very very inviting target.

On the Pred I was thinking hitting of a 5+ with BS 2 and simply put BS 5 by accident. I am still not convinced on the uselessness of a PotMs'ed lascannon boat.

I want to stay away from Dreadnoughts. I've used them a lot in my previous Marine armies, and have used them again in 5E. While they have gotten better I have always felt the a Dreadnought was the weakest unit in my army.

I used to run a Vindicator in my Marine tournament lists and loved it because I could move and fire. I thought that in 5E it was back to the old "you can't move AND fire ordinance" type rule, even with PotMs, which is why I got away from the Vindi.

I intended to run Neophytes, just that I want to make sure I had 10 Initiates and sprinkle in "Neos" as points allowed. I short, yes I am listening to the "take 4 Neos" comments.

I would not give a Chaplin a power fist. To me that's just.. dumb, you've taken a character can benefit from their higher I value and thrown it out the window. Plus he already comes with a power weapon. He'd be with a squad who has a power fist already anyways.

I am wanting more infantry models, definitely a 3rd troop option maybe a 4th even, though no more squads in LRCs. In the original concept I was toying with running two Sisters of Battle squads and maybe even a Sisters heavy weapon squad, but point limitations hampered that idea.

Righteous Zealing Righteous Zealing Righteous Zealing Righteous Zealing...

**HotSoup**

Before my other comments(Seen below, in orange), I have one thing to say: Eldar will give you the most trouble. Lessen that, take Blessed Hull. Beardy, but almost needed in tourneys. Eldar eat this list alive from my experience, without the super hull. On the LRC's, of course.

Swordbreaker wrote:I really like the colored text way of replying to the OP, it works great!

Thinking about this army and how the first few turns would go I realize that yes, a bike or assault squad is going to be a very very inviting target.

On the Pred I was thinking hitting of a 5+ with BS 2 and simply put BS 5 by accident. I am still not convinced on the uselessness of a PotMs'ed lascannon boat.

I want to stay away from Dreadnoughts. I've used them a lot in my previous Marine armies, and have used them again in 5E. While they have gotten better I have always felt the a Dreadnought was the weakest unit in my army.

It is simply a fire platform, and PotMS is more of a moving and firing type of upgrade. Better placed on a vindi. Also, dreads for me are smaller, more mobile. As for this, to each his own. I like the ability to hide a dread easier then a pred.

I used to run a Vindicator in my Marine tournament lists and loved it because I could move and fire. I thought that in 5E it was back to the old "you can't move AND fire ordinance" type rule, even with PotMs, which is why I got away from the Vindi.

You got your rules wrong. You cannot move and fire Ordinance Barrage weapons. Normal Ordinance is still perfectly fine as far as moving and firing goes. Wouldn't make much sense if Assault Ordinance tanks(Vindis and Leman Russ's) couldn't move up anf fire.

I intended to run Neophytes, just that I want to make sure I had 10 Initiates and sprinkle in "Neos" as points allowed. I short, yes I am listening to the "take 4 Neos" comments.

I would not give a Chaplin a power fist. To me that's just.. dumb, you've taken a character can benefit from their higher I value and thrown it out the window. Plus he already comes with a power weapon. He'd be with a squad who has a power fist already anyways.

True. I like to through in it when I have extra points(This army cannot really do much with ~30p anyway). Gives you the ability to have almost 5-6 assured kills if you want them. Or strike at I5. Still, a cheapo MoS(Term Honors, BP, Bionics) will outclass a marshal in this type of list.

I am wanting more infantry models, definitely a 3rd troop option maybe a 4th even, though no more squads in LRCs. In the original concept I was toying with running two Sisters of Battle squads and maybe even a Sisters heavy weapon squad, but point limitations hampered that idea.

I've toyed with an idea of running up 10 man squads in rhinos with the Raiders, to get more guys in. Or taking Lazerbacks+Plas(cannon)/Plas(gun) squads. Runt hem up, get in fire positions, kill things. Dunno which is more effective. Though, I have yet to think the vindis were a waste, so I'm sticking with them for now. They do really well with PotMS. I can have 4 tanks(in 1750p) run up and fire two pie plates and two assault cannons(If I don't pop smoke or hide the vindis behind the LRC's. Generally both).

Righteous Zealing Righteous Zealing Righteous Zealing Righteous Zealing...

**Swordbreaker**

Wait, it's Ordinance Barrage that can't fire! I glossed right over that! I don't think I would have caught that myself if I didn't otherwise learn it the hard way. Thanks! This also changes things too...

Blessed Hull is one of those things I'd take if I find a points gap to fill. Eldar are only one of a slew of many different armies I might face, and I've noticed a trend in Eldar armies to shift away from BLs to ELM and Scatter Lasers. That said, facing Eldar Bright lances is about the same as facing Tau Railguns.

**tokugawa**

An army without neophytes is not a Templar army.

Machine spirit is fine,but please do not put them on razorbacks. It has only a AV11.Whenever your opponent want to blow it,they could blow it.

IMO,the only suitable weapon for BT bikers,is melta.Bikers are so expensive that they usually became favorite target.They boost,shot,and...die.You must take some weapon to make them to get back their cost in these shots...at least the meltas have a chance to get some Bigone down.

BTW,don't forget HoA.

**wuestenfux**

Bike Squad: 5 man bike squad withan Attack Bike with Heavy Bolter.
The more I think about it the more I think of not giving this squad any weapons upgrades at all. I see them as flanking harassers to assist the LRC squads, spraying down targets with their bolter fire. If I took anything I was thinking either power weapons or plasma rifles.

I'd switch it to an Assault squad. You don't need a harrassing unit to assist the two LRCs.

Moreover, machine spirit is not worth it for the Razorback. It has paper-thin armor.

**Stelek**

You are correct, it is a middling BT list.

I'm glad I can't read the blue text, I'm sure it'd make my eyes hurt anyway.

I will post a few of the BT lists I'm working on. They are works in progress, but I think they are superior to this mix you've got.

The first is an assaulty force:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/216696.page

The second is a shooting force:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/216697.page

**tomguycot**

Hotsoup, I just wanted to say that I can't read your blue text at all without first highlighting your post.

**HotSoup**

Lets try Orange, shall we? Hello. Seems to work well. Orange text, see below. Tell me how hard it is to read. Or suggest a color, ect. Looks good, from review. I'll edit my other posts with the orange.

Stelek wrote:You are correct, it is a middling BT list.

With changes, it can be made rather good, but as it is, its rather fail.

I'm glad I can't read the blue text, I'm sure it'd make my eyes hurt anyway.

Sorry, this better at all?

I will post a few of the BT lists I'm working on. They are works in progress, but I think they are superior to this mix you've got.

The first is an assaulty force:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/216696.page

The second is a shooting force:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/216697.page

You do know BT are a CC army right? Go try making a Khorn Shooting army. Enjoy your fail, ect.

wuestenfux wrote:
I'd switch it to an Assault squad. You don't need a harrassing unit to assist the two LRCs.

All non-mounted units will die in seconds. All of his Under S8 anti-inf will blast them to pieces. Remove any type of inf squad or enjoy the dead point sink.

Moreover, machine spirit is not worth it for the Razorback. It has paper-thin armor.

Exactly. So does the Pred, truth be told. The pred doesn't really need it anyway, it doesn't need it to move 12" and fire its ordinance/assault cannon.

tokugawa wrote:An army without neophytes is not a Templar army.

Say that to most Rhino BT armies. Neo's help, and in LRC lists they are needed, but BT don't need Neo's.

Machine spirit is fine,but please do not put them on razorbacks. It has only a AV11.Whenever your opponent want to blow it,they could blow it.

Yea, weak armor, as said above.

IMO,the only suitable weapon for BT bikers,is melta.Bikers are so expensive that they usually became favorite target.They boost,shot,and...die.You must take some weapon to make them to get back their cost in these shots...at least the meltas have a chance to get some Bigone down.

The Bikes will die no matter what you do. Remove them, replace with vindis/neos.

BTW,don't forget HoA.

**Stelek**

You do know BT are a CC army right? Go try making a Khorn Shooting army. Enjoy your fail, ect.

Black Templar are one of the best marine shooting lists.

I like BT close combat armies, easy to beat.

Especially the fails you post.

Man. Horrible lists.

**HotSoup**

Stelek wrote:
You do know BT are a CC army right? Go try making a Khorn Shooting army. Enjoy your fail, ect.

Black Templar are one of the best marine shooting lists.

I like BT close combat armies, easy to beat.

Especially the fails you post.

Man. Horrible lists.

Back up those points why don't you? All I'm hearing is like those kids who go "RuneScapes tis awesome!111". When I tell them otherwise, they still go "Runescape tis awesome!111" and nothing else.

Besides tanks, BT are not reliable shooters. -1 Ld for taking target priority on all inf? And we are the only army to do it? And that we can no longer ignore the rule while shooting tanks, say, as those rules were removed? Seems rather meh.

EDIT: Also, RZ. That can destroy heavy weapon shooting for all but terminators, which is NOT a good thing.

**tokugawa**

to hotsoup:

you think rhino templars without neophytes are competetive?

Most of time,they are even slower than foot-slogging crusader squads.

And BT has the highest rhino cost.

**HotSoup**

tokugawa wrote:to hotsoup:

you think rhino templars without neophytes are competetive?

Most of time,they are even slower than foot-slogging crusader squads.

And BT has the highest rhino cost.

I was simply pointing out that there are non-neo lists. It is... bad to claim that BT lists must have neophytes. Its putting to much of a limit on it. I've also found no-Neo rhino lists to do well enough. That is enough for some people.

**Stelek**

I think your lists are one step above a battleforce list.

You can't run the BT program and not come out a loser. (No, I don't mean YOU are a loser.)

What I mean is, the BT get to run crusader squads in land raiders.

A fully kitted out squad with a LRC with blessed hull (required in tournaments) is 525 points!

You might be able to fool SOME of the people, SOME of the time, that this is a great wonderful thing...but it isn't.

You essentially get this:

An AV14 Rhino with 6 TL bolters, upgrade to an AC, and a multimelta...and the honor of carrying a bunch of scouts around with you, who by the way are 'noobs' and don't get any of your special rules but DO come with a 4+ armor save to help you lose close combat.

Compare yourself to say a Space Wolf Grey Hunters squad.

Remember this is one of the oldest Codices in the game, but it compares favorably to you.

Add in:

9 Grey Hunters w/meltagun, 2xpower weapons.
Wolf Guard Battleleader /w Power Fist, combi-melta, MC TH, runic charm, wolf pelt, and wolf tooth necklace.
Drop Pod with Deathwind launcher.

Total: 328.

You move up, they drop on you.

They drill 2 meltaguns into your LRC, and your LRC (if it's not dead) is probably immobilized.

More likely, it's been blown to bits and you are standing around. The drop pod fires it's deathwind launcher into you, and let's be fair and say it ONLY kills 3.

Time to get the assault on, yes?

You shoot, let's say you kill 3 grey hunters.

Note I am being very fair about the deathwind launcher, which can absolutely devastate you even if it misses.

So, you have 10 marines and 2 neophytes and I have 6 GH and a WGBL.

I counterattack successfully (LD9).

Now versus your 6 neophyte attacks, your 27 re-roll to hit standard attacks, and your 2 re-roll to hit PFist attacks; all of which hit on 4's...

The Space Wolves have: 6 power weapon attacks, 4 TH attacks (with a re-roll), and 12 standard attacks.

Will the space wolves probably get beat down? Yes.

Will your BT unit be gutted completely? I certainly think so. You might even lose combat--and what happens if you add in a BT character? Well, the Space Wolves usually have 2 characters (and a ven dread) but anything you can do; they can do better. You do know SW characters trump BT characters, yes? They've got better gear than you for CC. You get...a holy hand grenade. Yay for you.

Anyway if you are JUST talking about points...even if you wipe me and walk away with 3 guys...I still have 200 points of OTHER STUFF that you don't.

I long ago learned LRC + big crusader squad = win.

Now I'll go on about how BT are better at shooting.

**Burning Star IV**

Stelek wrote:I think your lists are one step above a battleforce list.

You can't run the BT program and not come out a loser. (No, I don't mean YOU are a loser.)

What I mean is, the BT get to run crusader squads in land raiders.

A fully kitted out squad with a LRC with blessed hull (required in tournaments) is 525 points!

You might be able to fool SOME of the people, SOME of the time, that this is a great wonderful thing...but it isn't.

You essentially get this:

An AV14 Rhino with 6 TL bolters, upgrade to an AC, and a multimelta...and the honor of carrying a bunch of scouts around with you, who by the way are 'noobs' and don't get any of your special rules but DO come with a 4+ armor save to help you lose close combat.

Compare yourself to say a Space Wolf Grey Hunters squad.

Remember this is one of the oldest Codices in the game, but it compares favorably to you.

Add in:

9 Grey Hunters w/meltagun, 2xpower weapons.
Wolf Guard Battleleader /w Power Fist, combi-melta, MC TH, runic charm, wolf pelt, and wolf tooth necklace.
Drop Pod with Deathwind launcher.

Total: 328.

You move up, they drop on you.

They drill 2 meltaguns into your LRC, and your LRC (if it's not dead) is probably immobilized.

More likely, it's been blown to bits and you are standing around. The drop pod fires it's deathwind launcher into you, and let's be fair and say it ONLY kills 3.

Time to get the assault on, yes?

You shoot, let's say you kill 3 grey hunters.

Note I am being very fair about the deathwind launcher, which can absolutely devastate you even if it misses.

So, you have 10 marines and 2 neophytes and I have 6 GH and a WGBL.

I counterattack successfully (LD9).

Now versus your 6 neophyte attacks, your 27 re-roll to hit standard attacks, and your 2 re-roll to hit PFist attacks; all of which hit on 4's...

The Space Wolves have: 6 power weapon attacks, 4 TH attacks (with a re-roll), and 12 standard attacks.

Will the space wolves probably get beat down? Yes.

Will your BT unit be gutted completely? I certainly think so. You might even lose combat--and what happens if you add in a BT character? Well, the Space Wolves usually have 2 characters (and a ven dread) but anything you can do; they can do better. You do know SW characters trump BT characters, yes? They've got better gear than you for CC. You get...a holy hand grenade. Yay for you.

Anyway if you are JUST talking about points...even if you wipe me and walk away with 3 guys...I still have 200 points of OTHER STUFF that you don't.

I long ago learned LRC + big crusader squad = win.

Now I'll go on about how BT are better at shooting.

My God you are presumptuous. I could just as easily say that your DP scatters out of range, and then I blow you to hell with some 20-man Noise Marine squad or something. What does it matter if you can tailor a squad to beat the tar out of another squad? In a game situation, the BT have impunity UP UNTIL assault over the SW. The SW have to sit there for a turn before they can assault, and the DW launcher is lucky to do anything for the 20 points you pay for the thing. Your squad was made to drop in on the enemy, while the BT squad was made to be big and... transported, I guess. What the BT squad does have is manpower, and that's good for a lot of things. Bullet catching, keeping objectives, etc.

I don't really feel like typing any more.

**Stelek**

@Burning Star:

Why yes, mostly because I've played most armies against most armies in most configs in most scenarios--so I speak from my experience:

Uhh the SW squad is my standard layout for SW troops (and is pretty much a standard for most competitive SW armies and has been for a very long time now).

I didn't tailor anything to kill anything. Why would the SW charge anyone? Do you know how SW's work? Charge the enemy. Whatever for? I can shoot you AND charge when you charge me, man.

I can mention how Tau light up BT with ease.

Chaos can bust you out with 3 oblits tossing TL meltaguns into you off an icon, lash you into formation, and plasma your squad to death.

Come on man, I am being honest.

There are lots and lots of ways to deal with 3 LRC and 45 marines!

DW launcher missing 15 marines standing around? How's that work?

You really should learn to cull your quotes, btw.

**Burning Star IV**

Bah, culling quotes is for people who cull quotes.

I understand what you say, but you failed to mention the many ways that your plan could go wrong as well.

As for missing 15 marines, it's quite easy when they're all within 2" of an entry point. Not necessary for exiting a wreck, but wise. If you scatter 3-4" in any direction, you miss. Or hit your own guys.

**Stelek**

So on to how BT are better at shooting.

Well, they do have the all-powerful crusader (great at killing infantry) and the standard land raider (great at nothing but killing light vehicles).

The problem with Raiders is, they are easily seen (so usually no cover saves) and really can get popped by a lucky lascannon shot.

Compare both with a BT terminator squad:

The LRC is 265 points, the Raider is 250.

A BT squad with 2 AC and tank hunters costs 255 points.

======================

Firepower:

Black Templar termies have more firepower in the 12.1" to 24" range than a LRC, but less mobility. The termies are good at killing MC in CC, hunting tanks, and infantry--in short, they really do it all.

The LRC often can get to within 12" with a 12" move, then unload it's bolters (woo, 6 more shots) but it still has the same AC. The LRC is bad at tank hunting, even with a MM.

Note: I plan on running my BT squads with the +Strength Vow, if only to be less cookie cutter (and let me knock enemy tanks around with S10 wacks from my power fists).

Advantage: Termies.

Mobility:

Termies have a steady mobility of 6", I like to think of them as rooks.

The LRC has a higher mobility, so I like to think of them as queens.

Problem is, a pawn (meltaguns) will knock out the LRC where it will just hurt the termies.

Advantage: Termies.

Defense:

Lascannons kill 1 terminator where torrent of fire can cripple terminators.

Small arms fire patters off the LR and usually so do lascannons.

Advantage: LR.

Or so it seems. Termies can sit at 24" and pummel you. Eldar can outpummel termies, but often that's about the only standard build that can.

These Termies will hurt you in CC, hurt you in shooting, and can kill even the might monolith with their S9 wacks (tank hunters doesn't work but strength does).

Are they perfect? No.

Are they deadly in the hands of an experienced player? I certainly think so.

=======================

Moving on, let's compare another BT unit that I like (but may never field).

I won't break it down like I did the termies vs the raiders.

It has a similar cost (225) and is able to exploit both mobility and firepower but is not able to take alot of return fire.

Namely, the heavy flamer/multimelta land speeder squadron.

No one in their right mind will assault it or bring tanks anywhere near it.

Reason? If you assault and don't kill it, well...it will unleash flamer death on you, and that's not fun.

If you bring in any vehicle, and are within 24" of the squadron when your turn is over; you're going to suffer from some multimelta shots to the kisser.

Why is this a good unit? Most other marine armies have lost this as a option. The whole unit doesn't get heavy flamers AND multimeltas.

Black Templars do, and having termies and speeders that can shrug off most light weapons fire means both are equally scary to most armies, and both can fry your infantry or smoke your tanks.

How's this a bad thing?

Sure, the units are pricey. For how good they are, they better be pricey.

Seeing 25 BT termies or 15 and 9 land speeders, or 15, a backup squadron of AC/HB in the rear, and a couple LR hiding minimum troops inside...

Those are the BT armies I fear.

The other BT armies people run? No fear.

Crusader squads don't kill tanks.

Almost everything else in the list is just standard marine junk, and not scary to anybody.

Massive LRC armies aren't scary because you can be immobilized and shot apart from beyond 24".

People don't take those into GT's and think they're going to win against balanced armies.

They're hoping for a dumb Khorne player to pick on, you know...a win based not on their army, but that of their opponent.

Lists like that, are frankly just one step above battleforce armies and are not competitive in any serious way.

So, I'll stick with shooty Black templar.

If they could bring Whirlwinds with cover busting rounds, I'd literally call them a perfect army.

Which is why they don't have them, in my honest opinion.

They'd be TOO good then.

**Stelek**

Burning Star IV wrote:Bah, culling quotes is for people who cull quotes.

I understand what you say, but you failed to mention the many ways that your plan could go wrong as well.

As for missing 15 marines, it's quite easy when they're all within 2" of an entry point. Not necessary for exiting a wreck, but wise. If you scatter 3-4" in any direction, you miss. Or hit your own guys.

I just ran average numbers.

Maybe you can take a pic of those 15 marines and put them all within 2" of a land raider entry point, and figure out just how above average you really have to roll to miss them entirely.

It's a rather huge footprint.

**Burning Star IV**

Stelek wrote:So on to how BT are better at shooting.

Well, they do have the all-powerful crusader (great at killing infantry) and the standard land raider (great at nothing but killing light vehicles).

The problem with Raiders is, they are easily seen (so usually no cover saves) and really can get popped by a lucky lascannon shot.

Compare both with a BT terminator squad:

The LRC is 265 points, the Raider is 250.

A BT squad with 2 AC and tank hunters costs 255 points.

======================

Firepower:

Black Templar termies have more firepower in the 12.1" to 24" range than a LRC, but less mobility. The termies are good at killing MC in CC, hunting tanks, and infantry--in short, they really do it all.

The LRC often can get to within 12" with a 12" move, then unload it's bolters (woo, 6 more shots) but it still has the same AC. The LRC is bad at tank hunting, even with a MM.

Note: I plan on running my BT squads with the +Strength Vow, if only to be less cookie cutter (and let me knock enemy tanks around with S10 wacks from my power fists).

Advantage: Termies.

Mobility:

Termies have a steady mobility of 6", I like to think of them as rooks.

The LRC has a higher mobility, so I like to think of them as queens.

Problem is, a pawn (meltaguns) will knock out the LRC where it will just hurt the termies.

Advantage: Termies.

Defense:

Lascannons kill 1 terminator where torrent of fire can cripple terminators.

Small arms fire patters off the LR and usually so do lascannons.

Advantage: LR.

Or so it seems. Termies can sit at 24" and pummel you. Eldar can outpummel termies, but often that's about the only standard build that can.

These Termies will hurt you in CC, hurt you in shooting, and can kill even the might monolith with their S9 wacks (tank hunters doesn't work but strength does).

Are they perfect? No.

Are they deadly in the hands of an experienced player? I certainly think so.

=======================

Moving on, let's compare another BT unit that I like (but may never field).

I won't break it down like I did the termies vs the raiders.

It has a similar cost (225) and is able to exploit both mobility and firepower but is not able to take alot of return fire.

Namely, the heavy flamer/multimelta land speeder squadron.

No one in their right mind will assault it or bring tanks anywhere near it.

Reason? If you assault and don't kill it, well...it will unleash flamer death on you, and that's not fun.

If you bring in any vehicle, and are within 24" of the squadron when your turn is over; you're going to suffer from some multimelta shots to the kisser.

Why is this a good unit? Most other marine armies have lost this as a option. The whole unit doesn't get heavy flamers AND multimeltas.

Black Templars do, and having termies and speeders that can shrug off most light weapons fire means both are equally scary to most armies, and both can fry your infantry or smoke your tanks.

How's this a bad thing?

Sure, the units are pricey. For how good they are, they better be pricey.

Seeing 25 BT termies or 15 and 9 land speeders, or 15, a backup squadron of AC/HB in the rear, and a couple LR hiding minimum troops inside...

Those are the BT armies I fear.

The other BT armies people run? No fear.

Crusader squads don't kill tanks.

Almost everything else in the list is just standard marine junk, and not scary to anybody.

Massive LRC armies aren't scary because you can be immobilized and shot apart from beyond 24".

People don't take those into GT's and think they're going to win against balanced armies.

They're hoping for a dumb Khorne player to pick on, you know...a win based not on their army, but that of their opponent.

Lists like that, are frankly just one step above battleforce armies and are not competitive in any serious way.

So, I'll stick with shooty Black templar.

If they could bring Whirlwinds with cover busting rounds, I'd literally call them a perfect army.

Which is why they don't have them, in my honest opinion.

They'd be TOO good then.

That's all standard for SM...
As for Suffer Not the Unclean to live, it's bloody useless against just about everything, and you only get S9 P-fists. You add bonuses after doubling your S4. A chainfist is better if you're gonna hunt tanks anyways.

**Stelek**

@ Burning Star:

You and your quote culling is an epic fail.

It's all standard for SM, then the new SM come out and all of this goes away--except for Black Templar. In case you didn't know, the new SM are right around the corner.

Thank you for telling me how the game mechanics work.

Here's your re-edimification.

Here's how you get S10 against vehicles:

Add in a power fist.

You double your base strength to 8.

You add suffer not the unclean to live.

Now you are S9.

Then you add in tank hunters.

Now you are S10.

I need a chainfist why exactly?

Every close combat hit but tank shock is against rear armor.

I autopen all vehicles in the game except for:

Drop Pods.
Monoliths.
Land Raiders.
Leman Russ Demolishers.

Please note I do know the rules for adding after multiplying, see where my attacks on the Monolith are S9? Tank hunters has to be subtracted, it's extra armor penetration where the strength bonus is not.

Please cull your quotes.

@ Myself for running shooty BT: I don't mind taking LD tests to not shoot the closest thing. It'll be fun to see if it ever costs me a game.

**tokugawa**

Well ,I wonder if the tank hunter would not work against lith.

The Necron codex only said "additional penetration DICE"will be ignored.

Tankhunter is not about additional "dice".It's simply a +1.

**tomguycot**

Hotsoup, sorry it took me a while to post this (didn't realize this thread had gotten so many responses) but the orange text is MUCH better.

**Stelek**

@ Tokugawa: I don't know either. The book is pretty clear about all extra armor pen not working I think?

**Burning Star IV**

Stelek wrote:@ Burning Star:
Then you add in tank hunters.

Now you are S10.

You're not Strength 10, you're still Strength 9 with +1 Armor Pen against vehicles.

tokugawa wrote:Well ,I wonder if the tank hunter would not work against lith.

The Necron codex only said "additional penetration DICE"will be ignored.

Tankhunter is not about additional "dice".It's simply a +1.

Man you misquoted that.

Stelek wrote:@ Tokugawa: I don't know either. The book is pretty clear about all extra armor pen not working I think?

IIRC they FAQed it, and there was no bonus.

**Chinnfrequent**

Suffer doesn't give you +1 strength against vehicles, as you only get the +1 when rolling to wound.

**tokugawa**

to Burning Star IV :

in the FAQ of which Codex?

It seems very very reasonable that Monolith could be immune to tankhunter.But it need evidences.

**HotSoup**

Stelek wrote:I think your lists are one step above a battleforce list.

You can't run the BT program and not come out a loser. (No, I don't mean YOU are a loser.)

What I mean is, the BT get to run crusader squads in land raiders.

A fully kitted out squad with a LRC with blessed hull (required in tournaments) is 525 points!

You might be able to fool SOME of the people, SOME of the time, that this is a great wonderful thing...but it isn't.

You essentially get this:

An AV14 Rhino with 6 TL bolters, upgrade to an AC, and a multimelta...and the honor of carrying a bunch of scouts around with you, who by the way are 'noobs' and don't get any of your special rules but DO come with a 4+ armor save to help you lose close combat.

... What. I must point out how you bash the LRC here, and then support it as a god-tank later on. Confusing much?

Now, then, the LRC is insanely hard to kill. The Crusader sqauds+IC eat things. I also have an insane charge range. Melta guns are not a worry for that reason, and not much else has a very good chance of taking it out.

Compare yourself to say a Space Wolf Grey Hunters squad.

Remember this is one of the oldest Codices in the game, but it compares favorably to you.

Add in:

9 Grey Hunters w/meltagun, 2xpower weapons.
Wolf Guard Battleleader /w Power Fist, combi-melta, MC TH, runic charm, wolf pelt, and wolf tooth necklace.
Drop Pod with Deathwind launcher.

Total: 328.

You move up, they drop on you.

They drill 2 meltaguns into your LRC, and your LRC (if it's not dead) is probably immobilized.

When the hell did that happen? When do you get this magical unobstructed turn in which everything goes right and I have nothing going for me?

My first turn: Move up, smoke.

Your first turn: Shoot it, do nothing much(If you get first turn, most of the time my LRC's are obscured behind SOMETHING.)

My 2nd Turn: I'm near your lines, if not in them, charging. By turn 3, the best time you can do it, I will be in combat. You will do nothing with that squad.

More likely, it's been blown to bits and you are standing around. The drop pod fires it's deathwind launcher into you, and let's be fair and say it ONLY kills 3.

... No. Not likely at all.

Time to get the assault on, yes?

You shoot, let's say you kill 3 grey hunters.

With the bolt pistol guys. I of course have no other shooting, right?

Note I am being very fair about the deathwind launcher, which can absolutely devastate you even if it misses.

Really, a S5 AP6 weapon devestating me? With a 1/3rd chance of hitting(With BS2, if it scatters, its generally off me). And even then, not exactly a strong weapon. 3 is about what it will hit, on the larger end of the scale.

So, you have 10 marines and 2 neophytes and I have 6 GH and a WGBL.

I counterattack successfully (LD9).

Now versus your 6 neophyte attacks, your 27 re-roll to hit standard attacks, and your 2 re-roll to hit PFist attacks; all of which hit on 4's...

The Space Wolves have: 6 power weapon attacks, 4 TH attacks (with a re-roll), and 12 standard attacks.

Will the space wolves probably get beat down? Yes.

Will your BT unit be gutted completely? I certainly think so. You might even lose combat--and what happens if you add in a BT character? Well, the Space Wolves usually have 2 characters (and a ven dread) but anything you can do; they can do better. You do know SW characters trump BT characters, yes? They've got better gear than you for CC. You get...a holy hand grenade. Yay for you.

Anyway if you are JUST talking about points...even if you wipe me and walk away with 3 guys...I still have 200 points of OTHER STUFF that you don't.

I long ago learned LRC + big crusader squad = win.

It wasn't that good before 5th ed. Glances could eat it alive. Until 5th, it was a list with many, many holes. I figured it out after reading a leaked e-book of the BBB. That was about.. 2 weeks before release? If you thought it was awesome before that... Yea, before that it was a bad idea(Before 5th ed I mean.) Crons could eat it alive, and Missile Launchers could ruin your day. Not well-rounded, at all.

Now I'll go on about how BT are better at shooting.

Stelek wrote:@Burning Star:

Why yes, mostly because I've played most armies against most armies in most configs in most scenarios--so I speak from my experience:

Uhh the SW squad is my standard layout for SW troops (and is pretty much a standard for most competitive SW armies and has been for a very long time now).

I didn't tailor anything to kill anything. Why would the SW charge anyone? Do you know how SW's work? Charge the enemy. Whatever for? I can shoot you AND charge when you charge me, man.

I can mention how Tau light up BT with ease.

... No they don't. I've lived many a shooting phase losing little or nothing. They can't shoot that well.

Chaos can bust you out with 3 oblits tossing TL meltaguns into you off an icon, lash you into formation, and plasma your squad to death.

Okay, 3 chaos players have tried that on me, all have failed epicly. If you're within popping guys in melta range, I was within charging range last turn. So, the icon that would summon some Oblitz, its dead. Sorry.

Come on man, I am being honest.

There are lots and lots of ways to deal with 3 LRC and 45 marines!

DW launcher missing 15 marines standing around? How's that work?

Very compact squads. Its BS2. It scatters, a lot. Unless it gets a direct hit, it is more then likely going right off my squad(It may hit a few). It doesn't have good odds if it rolls a scatter, and a hit is 1/3 chance. So, not good odds.

You really should learn to cull your quotes, btw.

Stelek wrote:So on to how BT are better at shooting.

Well, they do have the all-powerful crusader (great at killing infantry) and the standard land raider (great at nothing but killing light vehicles).

The problem with Raiders is, they are easily seen (so usually no cover saves) and really can get popped by a lucky lascannon shot.

Compare both with a BT terminator squad:

The LRC is 265 points, the Raider is 250.

A BT squad with 2 AC and tank hunters costs 255 points.

SM have that now. They will lose the 2x AC in the next dex, but otherwise... Also, target priority at -1 LD for all things with a LD. Enjoy that terminators.

======================

Firepower:

Black Templar termies have more firepower in the 12.1" to 24" range than a LRC, but less mobility. The termies are good at killing MC in CC, hunting tanks, and infantry--in short, they really do it all.

The LRC often can get to within 12" with a 12" move, then unload it's bolters (woo, 6 more shots) but it still has the same AC. The LRC is bad at tank hunting, even with a MM.

Note: I plan on running my BT squads with the +Strength Vow, if only to be less cookie cutter (and let me knock enemy tanks around with S10 wacks from my power fists).

Advantage: Termies.

Terminators are also subject to zeal, not the best thing for fire support. Into rapid fire range you go.

Also, besides the 2x AC, SM has all this and will later on. Also, SM will not have to take Target Priority at -1 LD. I find that is a hit for the terminators, you don't want firesupport getting closer to say, rapid fire death squads.

Mobility:

Termies have a steady mobility of 6", I like to think of them as rooks.

The LRC has a higher mobility, so I like to think of them as queens.

Problem is, a pawn (meltaguns) will knock out the LRC where it will just hurt the termies.

Advantage: Termies.

Again, SM have this. Also, melta only hurts LRC's within 6". With a 20" charge range from a LRC in one turn, I laugh at that idea. Meltas are not that worrying.

Defense:

Lascannons kill 1 terminator where torrent of fire can cripple terminators.

Small arms fire patters off the LR and usually so do lascannons.

Advantage: LR.

Or so it seems. Termies can sit at 24" and pummel you. Eldar can outpummel termies, but often that's about the only standard build that can.

These Termies will hurt you in CC, hurt you in shooting, and can kill even the might monolith with their S9 wacks (tank hunters doesn't work but strength does).

"any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armor penetration using its augmented strenght and a single D6 no matter what." This definately means Suffer not will not give you a bonus. That's a S modifier.

Are they perfect? No.

Are they deadly in the hands of an experienced player? I certainly think so.

=======================

Moving on, let's compare another BT unit that I like (but may never field).

I won't break it down like I did the termies vs the raiders.

It has a similar cost (225) and is able to exploit both mobility and firepower but is not able to take alot of return fire.

Namely, the heavy flamer/multimelta land speeder squadron.

Which SM also has. And will not lose.

No one in their right mind will assault it or bring tanks anywhere near it.

Reason? If you assault and don't kill it, well...it will unleash flamer death on you, and that's not fun.

If you bring in any vehicle, and are within 24" of the squadron when your turn is over; you're going to suffer from some multimelta shots to the kisser.

Why is this a good unit? Most other marine armies have lost this as a option. The whole unit doesn't get heavy flamers AND multimeltas.

Black Templars do, and having termies and speeders that can shrug off most light weapons fire means both are equally scary to most armies, and both can fry your infantry or smoke your tanks.

How's this a bad thing?

Sure, the units are pricey. For how good they are, they better be pricey.

Seeing 25 BT termies or 15 and 9 land speeders, or 15, a backup squadron of AC/HB in the rear, and a couple LR hiding minimum troops inside...

Those are the BT armies I fear.

An interesting list idea, to say the least, but again, without solid troop choices a clever enemy can eat an army alive. So, I must say, I do not fear those type of lists in the least. Its a very hit or miss army, it will eat some armies, and be killed by others.

The other BT armies people run? No fear.

Crusader squads don't kill tanks.

When were they supposed to?

Almost everything else in the list is just standard marine junk, and not scary to anybody.

Everything EXCEPT the 2x AC Termy squads are standard marine junk(So is the 2x AC, but that will be lost in a few weeks). With the -1 LD Target Priority and the zealing, I think that is enough of a hit to make the 2x AC nothing much. SM does it better, for cheaper.

Massive LRC armies aren't scary because you can be immobilized and shot apart from beyond 24".

Which is insanely hard on the battlefield. For the first two turns, I am obscured. After that, I am generally within 24", if not unloading my squads into a charge.

People don't take those into GT's and think they're going to win against balanced armies.

I've had no trouble with balanced armies. I've lost... twice, with this list type. Both times were from serious user error by me. I'm still learning with it, ect.

They're hoping for a dumb Khorne player to pick on, you know...a win based not on their army, but that of their opponent.

Lists like that, are frankly just one step above battleforce armies and are not competitive in any serious way.

So, I'll stick with shooty Black templar.

If they could bring Whirlwinds with cover busting rounds, I'd literally call them a perfect army.

Which is why they don't have them, in my honest opinion.

They'd be TOO good then.

tokugawa wrote:Well ,I wonder if the tank hunter would not work against lith.

It wouldn't. Its a strength modifier, you can only use unaugmented(non-modified) S against a lith.

The Necron codex only said "additional penetration DICE"will be ignored.

Tankhunter is not about additional "dice".It's simply a +1.

Read the whole rule, it answers this question plainly in the last two sentences.