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Chinnfrequent wrote:Suffer doesn't give you +1 strength against vehicles, as you only get the +1 when rolling to wound.

Not so sure about that, I believe it does actually make you S5.

tokugawa wrote:to Burning Star IV :

in the FAQ of which Codex?

It seems very very reasonable that Monolith could be immune to tankhunter.But it need evidences.

I believe Necron.

Just checked, but I guess they got rid of the 4th ed. FAQs.

Man. Replying is a serious chore when you quote soooo many times. And are so very very wrong on so many counts.

Well, let's get started.

HotSoup wrote:... What. I must point out how you bash the LRC here, and then support it as a god-tank later on. Confusing much?

Now, then, the LRC is insanely hard to kill. The Crusader sqauds+IC eat things. I also have an insane charge range. Melta guns are not a worry for that reason, and not much else has a very good chance of taking it out.

Drop Pods and Rhinos beat the LRC + Crusader squad combo.

Here's how:

First off, Drop Pod Meltaguns shoot your tank dead. Even with a bad scatter, I can get my meltas within 6".

Rhinos do the same thing. I drive up two rhino squads and sit at 19", popping smoke. You can run up and fire your AC or MM at 1 Rhino and get out your crusader squad and fire 1 MG at the other.

Have you worked out the odds of actually killing the Rhinos? And how it is meaningless since I can then rapid fire your crusader squads to death with both of my squads?

Your LRC can only hurt a few marines, and then I meltagun it to death. Good job.

Alternatively, if I want to I can just tank shock your crusaders into flamer death formation, and flamer them to pieces and play who can kill who faster/better.

2 rhinos full of tacticals is far more of a threat to your LRC with 1 tactical and half a scout squad than they are to it.

HotSoup wrote:When the hell did that happen? When do you get this magical unobstructed turn in which everything goes right and I have nothing going for me?

My first turn: Move up, smoke.

Your first turn: Shoot it, do nothing much(If you get first turn, most of the time my LRC's are obscured behind SOMETHING.)

My 2nd Turn: I'm near your lines, if not in them, charging. By turn 3, the best time you can do it, I will be in combat. You will do nothing with that squad.

Obscured from drop pods?

My lines? What lines, it's a drop pod army, there are no "lines".

I always get to first strike you.

Smoke all you want. I'll just concentrate my fire on one LRC and kill it and take out what was inside it, then wait for more drop pods to arrive to kill your other LRC.

HotSoup wrote:

Stelek wrote:More likely, it's been blown to bits and you are standing around. The drop pod fires it's deathwind launcher into you, and let's be fair and say it ONLY kills 3.

... No. Not likely at all.

You have to show me your math. I base my statements on actual playtest games.

Meltaguns stop Raiders, and smoke only stops half of the melta shots.

You do realize in a game I will be focusing fire on your LRC with multiple drop pods because that's the way to win?

I think everyone else realizes drop meltas own LR, but for some reason you think otherwise.

HotSoup wrote:

Stelek wrote:You shoot, let's say you kill 3 grey hunters.

With the bolt pistol guys. I of course have no other shooting, right?

In a LRC/Crusader army? Of course you don't. You don't get to bring 2 or 3 500 point units to the table and have any kind of "shooting".

Don't pretend like you do.

HotSoup wrote:Really, a S5 AP6 weapon devestating me? With a 1/3rd chance of hitting(With BS2, if it scatters, its generally off me). And even then, not exactly a strong weapon. 3 is about what it will hit, on the larger end of the scale.

Sure, and then there's another drop pod. All it takes is one solid hit, and instead of 3 dying suddenly everyone is taking wounds. That's not a happy place to be. You can say it is, but it isn't.

HotSoup wrote:It wasn't that good before 5th ed. Glances could eat it alive. Until 5th, it was a list with many, many holes. I figured it out after reading a leaked e-book of the BBB. That was about.. 2 weeks before release? If you thought it was awesome before that... Yea, before that it was a bad idea(Before 5th ed I mean.) Crons could eat it alive, and Missile Launchers could ruin your day. Not well-rounded, at all.

I know from experience that crusader lists that you believe in, I believe I can beat with every army I own, without fail, every single time.

HotSoup wrote:

Stelek wrote:I can mention how Tau light up BT with ease.

... No they don't. I've lived many a shooting phase losing little or nothing. They can't shoot that well.

Man, you sure say things that make me wonder.

Tau are one of the best (if not THE best) shooting armies in the game.

I want to see your face when a broadside team takes out two of your LR in a single turn--if you think you can take a crusader army into a Tau army and live, you really have to play GOOD tau players.

LR don't live with pathfinders (or any markerlights really) and railguns on the table. Tau ability to standoff and massacre marines is the hallmark of the army, so once dismounted if you think your pistol toting freaks with their inability to catch ANYTHING in a Tau army...well, you really need to be disabused of this notion PDQ.

HotSoup wrote:

Stelek wrote:Chaos can bust you out with 3 oblits tossing TL meltaguns into you off an icon, lash you into formation, and plasma your squad to death.

Okay, 3 chaos players have tried that on me, all have failed epicly. If you're within popping guys in melta range, I was within charging range last turn. So, the icon that would summon some Oblitz, its dead. Sorry.

Epicly is a epic fail.

First off, if the Icon is on a NM squad or a PM squad (which are THE choices for competitive Chaos lists) your crusader squads are getting their face handed to them in close combat.

Second, Chaos can bring 9 lascannons to bear on you at long range. That's enough to immobilize a LRC, which is ALL Chaos needs to do. You can sit inside the thing all day, they WILL blow you out.

Third, a mobile Chaos army (not one I favor but alot of Chaos players do) should drive forward and invite you to shoot rhinos--because LRC suck at popping vehicles (something EVERYONE BUT YOU seems to know). Then the Oblits drop down 6" anywhere from the hull, and TL Meltagun your LRC to death. Whatcha gonna do, DRIVE BACKWARDS? Go ahead, that's a GAME WINNER from Templar. :S

This WILL pop your LRC, no matter how much you obfuscate...3 TL meltaguns = death to land raiders. Then the Icon sitting in it's rhino will get out with everyone else, and smoke your crusaders. Why? Because silly, there is NO REAR HATCH so you cannot hide your huge 15 man lap-around-the-front-hatch-and-be-seen-by-everyone unit, and all they have to do is be able to see ONE GUY in your squad, and you are about to get pummeled.

HotSoup wrote:Very compact squads. Its BS2. It scatters, a lot. Unless it gets a direct hit, it is more then likely going right off my squad(It may hit a few). It doesn't have good odds if it rolls a scatter, and a hit is 1/3 chance. So, not good odds.

Back to the Deathwind Launcher again. Sure, that's why you focus fire. It's a military maxim that you punish an enemy until he withdraws, surrenders, or is dead. So if I only get 2 of my 6 drop pods in, they will both land on top of one of your LRC and guess what? Drop Pods properly placed can severely curtail your assault range from your other LRC.

See, I will always take my 2 cheaper units to your big expensive ones, and win. Why? I know how to sacrifice fly. I know how to block charges. I know you suck at mobility once your LR are dead. I know you are one assault units, and then get shot to pieces--and because you brought 250 points of vehicle instead of 250 points of more marines like I did, I can lose a marine squad gutting your marine squad...then eliminate your marine squad with my OTHER, redundant marine squad.

That's your drawback. You have no redundancy. You depend on getting an alpha strike off.

What happens when the alpha strikers get alpha striked?

They lose, big.

HotSoup wrote:SM have that now. They will lose the 2x AC in the next dex, but otherwise... Also, target priority at -1 LD for all things with a LD. Enjoy that terminators.

I won't mind. I know how to run my armies so my terminators are properly placed to shoot at what I want them to, which is usually following the FIFO rules.

See, the drawback doesn't matter if you are going to fire at the closest target ANYWAY!

HotSoup wrote:Terminators are also subject to zeal, not the best thing for fire support. Into rapid fire range you go.

Also, besides the 2x AC, SM has all this and will later on. Also, SM will not have to take Target Priority at -1 LD. I find that is a hit for the terminators, you don't want firesupport getting closer to say, rapid fire death squads.

You have any idea how Zeal works?

I mean, really know? Don't take this the wrong way, but you really sound like a Black Templar player who is first in his gaming group to run Templar and no one knows how to deal with them yet and you are running rampant.

So here is your education:

I get shot, I lose a termie.

I fail my LD test.

I zeal.

I roll 9".

I move 0.1" closer to you.

Congrats, I just satisfied the rule requiring me to move towards the enemy.

Don't be mad, just remember--I chased the Black Templar players out of my state a long time ago.

None of them will play me.

They all have crusader/LRC armies.

HotSoup wrote:Again, SM have this. Also, melta only hurts LRC's within 6". With a 20" charge range from a LRC in one turn, I laugh at that idea. Meltas are not that worrying.

Please see bit above about 'tactics' against LRC that cannot kill tanks effectively nor can crusader squads (you did mention that, which I found funny because of this).

Meltas annihilate LR. You should fear them at all times.

Melta drop forces from ANY army have a field day with you.

Whaddya do when Chaos rolls up in a pair of rhinos...both Rhinos with a combi-melta on? Yeah, you won't be laughing when you face 6 meltaguns your next turn. 8 if Chaos is having fun with you.

See how your smoke holds up then. Oh, it can be +9 TL meltaguns if all the oblits are in the back.

Don't forget Chaos has LR too, which make LRC cry.

HotSoup wrote:

Stelek wrote:Namely, the heavy flamer/multimelta land speeder squadron.

Which SM also has. And will not lose.

I will see what they end up losing when the Codex comes out.

I don't see SM needing to run these units because of the other capabilities in the Codex.

I guess you'll see when it comes out.

HotSoup wrote:

Stelek wrote:Seeing 25 BT termies or 15 and 9 land speeders, or 15, a backup squadron of AC/HB in the rear, and a couple LR hiding minimum troops inside...

Those are the BT armies I fear.

An interesting list idea, to say the least, but again, without solid troop choices a clever enemy can eat an army alive. So, I must say, I do not fear those type of lists in the least. Its a very hit or miss army, it will eat some armies, and be killed by others.

You don't need solid troop choices when you can sit your troops offboard for the critical first turns of the game, and hide them for the last turns.

You DO know you can't tank shock an immobile drop pod off an objective, right? lol

HotSoup wrote:

Stelek wrote:Crusader squads don't kill tanks.

When were they supposed to?

I dunno, hopefully you read everything I said, realize just how difficult it is to kill tanks, and know you only have ONE meltagun when TWO is required.

Just saying, this is not a FLEX unit. This is a numbers unit hoping to use preferred enemy to drag down the enemies infantry.

What if the enemy isn't vulnerable to that?

Right, you lose.

HotSoup wrote:Everything EXCEPT the 2x AC Termy squads are standard marine junk(So is the 2x AC, but that will be lost in a few weeks). With the -1 LD Target Priority and the zealing, I think that is enough of a hit to make the 2x AC nothing much. SM does it better, for cheaper.

SM do the same unit but better, for cheaper? Gee. Neat trick, can you bend light with your mind too?

Same unit, same costs. Different book. Does blue make it better and feel cheaper?

I always thought red did that.

HotSoup wrote:Which is insanely hard on the battlefield. For the first two turns, I am obscured. After that, I am generally within 24", if not unloading my squads into a charge.

First two turns you are obscured? In what crack induced dreamland is this? You cannot hide Land Raiders from drop meltas without popping smoke! If you pop smoke, I'll drop everything on one LRC and kill it anyway.

Man I wanna play in your fantasy land, where you can unload from a LR into orbit. That's some trick.

Right up there with bending light and making a unit that costs the same and is identical in game terms be both better AND cheaper.

HotSoup wrote:I've had no trouble with balanced armies. I've lost... twice, with this list type. Both times were from serious user error by me. I'm still learning with it, ect.

So are your opponents. They'll start figuring out how to stop running 6 lascannons and start running 8+ mobile meltaguns and start dropping your LRC immediately then play keep away with your slow arse crusader squads.

HotSoup wrote:"any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armor penetration using its augmented strenght and a single D6 no matter what." This definitely means Suffer not will not give you a bonus. That's a S modifier.

HotSoup wrote:It wouldn't. Its a strength modifier, you can only use unaugmented(non-modified) S against a lith.

HotSoup wrote:

Stelek wrote:The Necron codex only said "additional penetration DICE"will be ignored.

Tankhunter is not about additional "dice".It's simply a +1.

Read the whole rule, it answers this question plainly in the last two sentences.

I wish you would read the whole rule.

You quoted the old Necron FAQ. Grats, now delete it and read the 5th edition one, which says nothing of the sort.

Then read the real rule in the Necron Codex, I'd quote it but the two relevant passages are below.

Attacks which count AV14 as less do not work.
Attacks which gain extra penetration dice do not work.

Rending works.
The vow works but only when wounding, I took the time to read the Codex.
So, tank hunters DOES work, which makes it even worse since now it's a S9 wack. Man, gotta love S9 wacks on Monoliths. lol they can't escape either!

Yay.

Again, orange text, ect. Also, going to point out how many times you assume things about me that are wrong, for the fun of it. Also, Stelek, you could stop being a prick, it may make you not seem like a 12yoB that needs to L2Write.

Stelek wrote:Man. Replying is a serious chore when you quote soooo many times. And are so very very wrong on so many counts.

Well, let's get started.

HotSoup wrote:... What. I must point out how you bash the LRC here, and then support it as a god-tank later on. Confusing much?

Now, then, the LRC is insanely hard to kill. The Crusader sqauds+IC eat things. I also have an insane charge range. Melta guns are not a worry for that reason, and not much else has a very good chance of taking it out.

Drop Pods and Rhinos beat the LRC + Crusader squad combo.

Here's how:

First off, Drop Pod Meltaguns shoot your tank dead. Even with a bad scatter, I can get my meltas within 6".

Rhinos do the same thing. I drive up two rhino squads and sit at 19", popping smoke. You can run up and fire your AC or MM at 1 Rhino and get out your crusader squad and fire 1 MG at the other.

Have you worked out the odds of actually killing the Rhinos? And how it is meaningless since I can then rapid fire your crusader squads to death with both of my squads?

Your LRC can only hurt a few marines, and then I meltagun it to death. Good job.

You are aware that 2x Melta guns have about a 25% chance of doing something to a smoked LRC? Stop acting as though its a sure thing of epic win. The "Meltaz are the awesomes!111" thing is getting a tad annoying. Maybe I inhabit a area of gakky rollers, but Meltas have rarely done enough to make me fear them as much as the god weapons you make them seem. Also, as for skill, my GW is one of(If not the most) the most powergamer populated stores in the area. I'm going to assume that's not one of the factors.

Alternatively, if I want to I can just tank shock your crusaders into flamer death formation, and flamer them to pieces and play who can kill who faster/better.

2 rhinos full of tacticals is far more of a threat to your LRC with 1 tactical and half a scout squad than they are to it.

HotSoup wrote:When the hell did that happen? When do you get this magical unobstructed turn in which everything goes right and I have nothing going for me?

My first turn: Move up, smoke.

Your first turn: Shoot it, do nothing much(If you get first turn, most of the time my LRC's are obscured behind SOMETHING.)

My 2nd Turn: I'm near your lines, if not in them, charging. By turn 3, the best time you can do it, I will be in combat. You will do nothing with that squad.

Obscured from drop pods?

My lines? What lines, it's a drop pod army, there are no "lines".

I always get to first strike you.

Smoke all you want. I'll just concentrate my fire on one LRC and kill it and take out what was inside it, then wait for more drop pods to arrive to kill your other LRC.

If you are a drop pod army, I will generally be close together, hoping to kill what comes in. Hard, yes, but don't assume you can just ignore one. Assuming of how I will react. Case #1.

HotSoup wrote:

Stelek wrote:More likely, it's been blown to bits and you are standing around. The drop pod fires it's deathwind launcher into you, and let's be fair and say it ONLY kills 3.

... No. Not likely at all.

You have to show me your math. I base my statements on actual playtest games.

So are mine. I have yet to have meltas pop a raider before turn 4.

Meltaguns stop Raiders, and smoke only stops half of the melta shots.

You do realize in a game I will be focusing fire on your LRC with multiple drop pods because that's the way to win?

I think everyone else realizes drop meltas own LR, but for some reason you think otherwise.


I don't see two as a threat. They are great anti-tank, yes, but I can stand 2-4 with odds on my side for not being crippled.

HotSoup wrote:

Stelek wrote:You shoot, let's say you kill 3 grey hunters.

With the bolt pistol guys. I of course have no other shooting, right?

In a LRC/Crusader army? Of course you don't. You don't get to bring 2 or 3 500 point units to the table and have any kind of "shooting".

Don't pretend like you do.

That's #2 for assuming. I do not run pure LRC lists. I never leave home without Sniper Dreads/Vindis. I have yet to find a support shooty unit better then those for BT.

HotSoup wrote:Really, a S5 AP6 weapon devestating me? With a 1/3rd chance of hitting(With BS2, if it scatters, its generally off me). And even then, not exactly a strong weapon. 3 is about what it will hit, on the larger end of the scale.

Sure, and then there's another drop pod. All it takes is one solid hit, and instead of 3 dying suddenly everyone is taking wounds. That's not a happy place to be. You can say it is, but it isn't.

HotSoup wrote:It wasn't that good before 5th ed. Glances could eat it alive. Until 5th, it was a list with many, many holes. I figured it out after reading a leaked e-book of the BBB. That was about.. 2 weeks before release? If you thought it was awesome before that... Yea, before that it was a bad idea(Before 5th ed I mean.) Crons could eat it alive, and Missile Launchers could ruin your day. Not well-rounded, at all.

I know from experience that crusader lists that you believe in, I believe I can beat with every army I own, without fail, every single time.

I'm sorry, but bring it. I'd like to see it, ect.

HotSoup wrote:

Stelek wrote:I can mention how Tau light up BT with ease.

... No they don't. I've lived many a shooting phase losing little or nothing. They can't shoot that well.

Man, you sure say things that make me wonder.

Tau are one of the best (if not THE best) shooting armies in the game.

I want to see your face when a broadside team takes out two of your LR in a single turn--if you think you can take a crusader army into a Tau army and live, you really have to play GOOD tau players.

LR don't live with pathfinders (or any markerlights really) and railguns on the table. Tau ability to standoff and massacre marines is the hallmark of the army, so once dismounted if you think your pistol toting freaks with their inability to catch ANYTHING in a Tau army...well, you really need to be disabused of this notion PDQ.


Sorry, I meant to say THAT well. Sure, they are one of the best(If not the best) shooty armies in the game. But I still can't see them dealing with 2x LRC and 1-3x Vindis in the two turns they have before I'm at their lines. Obscured both turns as well. Cover+Smoke. Is that #3?

Also, love how in another thread you call Tau slow, yet say I haven't a hope in hell of catching them. Make up your mind.

HotSoup wrote:

Stelek wrote:Chaos can bust you out with 3 oblits tossing TL meltaguns into you off an icon, lash you into formation, and plasma your squad to death.

Okay, 3 chaos players have tried that on me, all have failed epicly. If you're within popping guys in melta range, I was within charging range last turn. So, the icon that would summon some Oblitz, its dead. Sorry.

Epicly is a epic fail.

... What? Epicly is epic fail? Do you know chan speak, at all, where epic fail comes from? Are you one of those most dreadful things, a new ? Also, an epic fail. If you aren't referring the word, then please elaborate, because I cannot gain any other meaning to that sentence.

First off, if the Icon is on a NM squad or a PM squad (which are THE choices for competitive Chaos lists) your crusader squads are getting their face handed to them in close combat.

Lulwut. Odd, how I have better odds, much better odds, even with their added bonuses.

Second, Chaos can bring 9 lascannons to bear on you at long range. That's enough to immobilize a LRC, which is ALL Chaos needs to do. You can sit inside the thing all day, they WILL blow you out.

3 of which miss, and an average of 1 will glance and 1 will pen. Math wise, its not that good of an odds of taking me down. A little more then 1/4 chance. Out of 9 shots. Wasted.

Third, a mobile Chaos army (not one I favor but alot of Chaos players do) should drive forward and invite you to shoot rhinos--because LRC suck at popping vehicles (something EVERYONE BUT YOU seems to know). Then the Oblits drop down 6" anywhere from the hull, and TL Meltagun your LRC to death. Whatcha gonna do, DRIVE BACKWARDS? Go ahead, that's a GAME WINNER from Templar. :S


I never would use a LRC to pop vehicles, unless they had nothing else to shoot. I have Sniper Dreads/Vindis for that. Assuming things #4.


This WILL pop your LRC, no matter how much you obfuscate...3 TL meltaguns = death to land raiders. Then the Icon sitting in it's rhino will get out with everyone else, and smoke your crusaders. Why? Because silly, there is NO REAR HATCH so you cannot hide your huge 15 man lap-around-the-front-hatch-and-be-seen-by-everyone unit, and all they have to do is be able to see ONE GUY in your squad, and you are about to get pummeled.

I guess using the Emergency Disembarkation rule just never occured to you did you. Insta-rear hatch. Gotta love 5th ed. Either you didn't know of that rule, or you assumed I didn't know it. Either you need to review the changes, or assuming things #5.

HotSoup wrote:Very compact squads. Its BS2. It scatters, a lot. Unless it gets a direct hit, it is more then likely going right off my squad(It may hit a few). It doesn't have good odds if it rolls a scatter, and a hit is 1/3 chance. So, not good odds.

Back to the Deathwind Launcher again. Sure, that's why you focus fire. It's a military maxim that you punish an enemy until he withdraws, surrenders, or is dead. So if I only get 2 of my 6 drop pods in, they will both land on top of one of your LRC and guess what? Drop Pods properly placed can severely curtail your assault range from your other LRC.

Yes, I would totally seperate my army against a drop pod army. Totally. I'd probably keep them close enough to support eachother when that drop comes. #6.

See, I will always take my 2 cheaper units to your big expensive ones, and win. Why? I know how to sacrifice fly. I know how to block charges. I know you suck at mobility once your LR are dead. I know you are one assault units, and then get shot to pieces--and because you brought 250 points of vehicle instead of 250 points of more marines like I did, I can lose a marine squad gutting your marine squad...then eliminate your marine squad with my OTHER, redundant marine squad.

That's your drawback. You have no redundancy. You depend on getting an alpha strike off.

What happens when the alpha strikers get alpha striked?

They lose, big.

HotSoup wrote:SM have that now. They will lose the 2x AC in the next dex, but otherwise... Also, target priority at -1 LD for all things with a LD. Enjoy that terminators.

I won't mind. I know how to run my armies so my terminators are properly placed to shoot at what I want them to, which is usually following the FIFO rules.

True, that WAS a stupid comment on my part.

See, the drawback doesn't matter if you are going to fire at the closest target ANYWAY!

HotSoup wrote:Terminators are also subject to zeal, not the best thing for fire support. Into rapid fire range you go.

Also, besides the 2x AC, SM has all this and will later on. Also, SM will not have to take Target Priority at -1 LD. I find that is a hit for the terminators, you don't want firesupport getting closer to say, rapid fire death squads.

You have any idea how Zeal works?

I mean, really know? Don't take this the wrong way, but you really sound like a Black Templar player who is first in his gaming group to run Templar and no one knows how to deal with them yet and you are running rampant.

So here is your education:

I get shot, I lose a termie.

I fail my LD test.

I zeal.

I roll 9".

I move 0.1" closer to you.

Congrats, I just satisfied the rule requiring me to move towards the enemy.

Don't be mad, just remember--I chased the Black Templar players out of my state a long time ago.

None of them will play me.

They all have crusader/LRC armies.

Okay, I have no idea why I made that comment. I know that rule/loophole, I use it. Ask people on this forum who I play against(Burning Star is one of them). Temporary Brain Fart I guess. Sorry to waste your time with that.

HotSoup wrote:Again, SM have this. Also, melta only hurts LRC's within 6". With a 20" charge range from a LRC in one turn, I laugh at that idea. Meltas are not that worrying.

Please see bit above about 'tactics' against LRC that cannot kill tanks effectively nor can crusader squads (you did mention that, which I found funny because of this).

Meltas annihilate LR. You should fear them at all times.

With their small range, I only need to fear them within 6". Again, 20" charge range.

Melta drop forces from ANY army have a field day with you.

I've faced... None since I started my LRC army. So I can't say from experience. Until that day, I guess I have to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Whaddya do when Chaos rolls up in a pair of rhinos...both Rhinos with a combi-melta on? Yeah, you won't be laughing when you face 6 meltaguns your next turn. 8 if Chaos is having fun with you.

See how your smoke holds up then. Oh, it can be +9 TL meltaguns if all the oblits are in the back.

Which totally isn't a waste of an army. I planned a sarcastic remark to that, but I would rather not, I have to try and stop that. I am a fellow jackass, you see. Need to stop it however.

Don't forget Chaos has LR too, which make LRC cry.

Since 9x Las have a little over 1/4 chance of crippling me, I'd love to see how 2x Twin Linked ones do. Same odds of 2x Meltas at 6" range. Makes your squads more appealing, doesn't it.

HotSoup wrote:

Stelek wrote:Namely, the heavy flamer/multimelta land speeder squadron.

Which SM also has. And will not lose.

I will see what they end up losing when the Codex comes out.

I don't see SM needing to run these units because of the other capabilities in the Codex.

If SM have better options, then why do you think BT are better shooters?

I guess you'll see when it comes out.

HotSoup wrote:

Stelek wrote:Seeing 25 BT termies or 15 and 9 land speeders, or 15, a backup squadron of AC/HB in the rear, and a couple LR hiding minimum troops inside...

Those are the BT armies I fear.

An interesting list idea, to say the least, but again, without solid troop choices a clever enemy can eat an army alive. So, I must say, I do not fear those type of lists in the least. Its a very hit or miss army, it will eat some armies, and be killed by others.

You don't need solid troop choices when you can sit your troops offboard for the critical first turns of the game, and hide them for the last turns.

You know you HAVE to deep strike, right?

You DO know you can't tank shock an immobile drop pod off an objective, right? lol

Can I count that as #7?

HotSoup wrote:

Stelek wrote:Crusader squads don't kill tanks.

When were they supposed to?

I dunno, hopefully you read everything I said, realize just how difficult it is to kill tanks, and know you only have ONE meltagun when TWO is required.

The one Melta is a precaution, I don't intend to use the LRC+Crusader squad to do that, I have vindis/sniper dreads for that.

Just saying, this is not a FLEX unit. This is a numbers unit hoping to use preferred enemy to drag down the enemies infantry.


What if the enemy isn't vulnerable to that?

With 5th ed the way it is, I'd say both the LRC and Crusader Squad can deal with all threads decently. Sure, they do better against inf squads that sit there, but they can kill tanks with the new rules, and kill elite infantry.

Right, you lose.

HotSoup wrote:Everything EXCEPT the 2x AC Termy squads are standard marine junk(So is the 2x AC, but that will be lost in a few weeks). With the -1 LD Target Priority and the zealing, I think that is enough of a hit to make the 2x AC nothing much. SM does it better, for cheaper.

SM do the same unit but better, for cheaper? Gee. Neat trick, can you bend light with your mind too?

Same unit, same costs. Different book. Does blue make it better and feel cheaper?

They have cheaper models, less damaging to heavy weapon special rules, and more shooty options. So vSM are better at shooting. QED.

I always thought red did that.

HotSoup wrote:Which is insanely hard on the battlefield. For the first two turns, I am obscured. After that, I am generally within 24", if not unloading my squads into a charge.

First two turns you are obscured? In what crack induced dreamland is this? You cannot hide Land Raiders from drop meltas without popping smoke! If you pop smoke, I'll drop everything on one LRC and kill it anyway.

Podding Meltas don't even come in the first of those two turns, my point still stands, you just wasted time typing that.

Man I wanna play in your fantasy land, where you can unload from a LR into orbit. That's some trick.

What... ?

Right up there with bending light and making a unit that costs the same and is identical in game terms be both better AND cheaper.

Again, huh? I assume you are being a sarcastic prick, but the sarcasm is fail. I never even made it seem like I could do either of those things, or deal with them easily. I simply say they are not insano busted god units you make them out to be.

HotSoup wrote:I've had no trouble with balanced armies. I've lost... twice, with this list type. Both times were from serious user error by me. I'm still learning with it, ect.

So are your opponents. They'll start figuring out how to stop running 6 lascannons and start running 8+ mobile meltaguns and start dropping your LRC immediately then play keep away with your slow arse crusader squads.

With Zeal, they are going 12" or so a turn. 18" max. Not that hard to catch Rhinos. Especially since they are within 6" the first time I'm out. Hardly Slow.

HotSoup wrote:"any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armor penetration using its augmented strenght and a single D6 no matter what." This definitely means Suffer not will not give you a bonus. That's a S modifier.

HotSoup wrote:It wouldn't. Its a strength modifier, you can only use unaugmented(non-modified) S against a lith.

HotSoup wrote:

Stelek wrote:The Necron codex only said "additional penetration DICE"will be ignored.

Tankhunter is not about additional "dice".It's simply a +1.

Read the whole rule, it answers this question plainly in the last two sentences.

I wish you would read the whole rule.

You quoted the old Necron FAQ. Grats, now delete it and read the 5th edition one, which says nothing of the sort.

Then read the real rule in the Necron Codex, I'd quote it but the two relevant passages are below.

Attacks which count AV14 as less do not work.
Attacks which gain extra penetration dice do not work.

That's #8. I never quoted from the FAQ. Only from the Cron Dex. It says, in there, under living metal, only unaugmented S can be used, period, against the tank. Last sentence in there. Which can also applies to P-fists, since that used to be FAQ'ed(I think), but no longer.

Rending works.
The vow works but only when wounding, I took the time to read the Codex.
So, tank hunters DOES work, which makes it even worse since now it's a S9 wack. Man, gotta love S9 wacks on Monoliths. lol they can't escape either!

Nope. Read that last sentence. unaugmented S only.

Yay.

HotSoup wrote:Again, orange text, ect. Also, going to point out how many times you assume things about me that are wrong, for the fun of it. Also, Stelek, you could stop being a prick, it may make you not seem like a 12yoB that needs to L2Write.

HotSoup wrote:You are aware that 2x Melta guns have about a 25% chance of doing something to a smoked LRC? Stop acting as though its a sure thing of epic win. The "Meltaz are the awesomes!111" thing is getting a tad annoying. Maybe I inhabit a area of gakky rollers, but Meltas have rarely done enough to make me fear them as much as the god weapons you make them seem. Also, as for skill, my GW is one of(If not the most) the most powergamer populated stores in the area. I'm going to assume that's not one of the factors.

That's why I keep mentioning MORE THAN TWO MELTAGUNS. Your math is off, btw.

You can blow your smoke only one turn. Stop pretending like you can smoke every damn turn or that a drop army arrives all on turn 2.

I arrive, and I take my chances with the raider I'm shooting at.

Yeah yeah, you and your gaming group own everyone and their mother. Good for you. Play me. I'll sing you a different tune.

HotSoup wrote:
If you are a drop pod army, I will generally be close together, hoping to kill what comes in. Hard, yes, but don't assume you can just ignore one. Assuming of how I will react. Case #1.

I didn't assume I can ignore anything. I'm telling you that I will ignore the rest of your army. Not assuming, I am telling you I don't play like a slow. I focus my fire, and I will cripple you one unit at a time. If you only have 2 LRC and 2 crusader squads with some support dreads and vindis...well, then your list is even weaker than I supposed. Play Blood Angels with that crap.

HotSoup wrote:
So are mine. I have yet to have meltas pop a raider before turn 4.

Wow really? I only run 8 meltas in my rather pathetic DH army, and I kill 2 of 3 by turn 3. I'm not even mobile, must be all the newbs I play and all the experts you play, huh.

HotSoup wrote:
I don't see two as a threat. They are great anti-tank, yes, but I can stand 2-4 with odds on my side for not being crippled.

That's nice. Every meltagun that hits on average dice rolls will blow you up. We're not even talking about being immobilized (that's crippled). Man I want the magic dice table you've got.

HotSoup wrote:
That's #2 for assuming. I do not run pure LRC lists. I never leave home without Sniper Dreads/Vindis. I have yet to find a support shooty unit better then those for BT.

Vindis are crap. Especially if you are running LRC. See, if the enemies artillery will kill you, assault the enemy. Oh dear, there I go again, using tactics to defeat such a poor list. Sniper Dreads don't scare all infantry armies. Or drop pod armies. Whatcha gonna do? Blow up my drop pods? Oh noes!

HotSoup wrote:
I'm sorry, but bring it. I'd like to see it, ect.

Dude my DH army wipes your army out without trying. How's this a good list? What, ya gonna make me take my 4+ cover saves? Oh dear. Assault the sacrifice units with your crusader squads. Then die. You can have one of my cheap squads so long as I can eat your expensive one for breakfast. Ok? It's not a fair trade, but you did ask.

HotSoup wrote:
Sorry, I meant to say THAT well. Sure, they are one of the best(If not the best) shooty armies in the game. But I still can't see them dealing with 2x LRC and 1-3x Vindis in the two turns they have before I'm at their lines. Obscured both turns as well. Cover+Smoke. Is that #3?

Also, love how in another thread you call Tau slow, yet say I haven't a hope in hell of catching them. Make up your mind.

Dude, stop saying your Land Raiders are obscured. I don't know what fantasy land you are in, but they won't be. Second biggest vehicle in the game and you're acting like you get cover at a GT. Stop already. You don't.

Vindicators are the biggest gift a LRC army offers. See, I drop pod in your face, and I blow you up. Then I'm standing next to your guys. Go ahead, fire the vindi my way. I promise I'll be obscured from you (see DROP POD) and I will gladly take your uber shot and laugh if it lands on your guys.

HotSoup wrote:
Lulwut. Odd, how I have better odds, much better odds, even with their added bonuses.

You have better odds to kill NM and PM? First off, without a IC your stupid squad doesn't do anything to PM. Anyone with sense knows this. Great, you re-roll to hit...and do few wounds, then you lose combat because none stick. Against the NM, you know they are faster than you, right? And Fearless? Go ahead, chop 'em up. You won't lose any guys, nope those Initiates will stand fast against a NM squad.

HotSoup wrote:
3 of which miss, and an average of 1 will glance and 1 will pen. Math wise, its not that good of an odds of taking me down. A little more then 1/4 chance. Out of 9 shots. Wasted.

Gee. Your math is again horrible.

I will visit the math separately.

HotSoup wrote:
I never would use a LRC to pop vehicles, unless they had nothing else to shoot. I have Sniper Dreads/Vindis for that. Assuming things #4.

I want your clear lines of fire past your own wrecked land raiders with your 7" tall dreads and vindicators. That should make for a good laugh. Are your hills 9" high so your uber group can play 4th edition hide the land raiders on turn 1 cause we got skillz? lol

You keep on forgetting that sniper dreads and vindicators are firing at DROP PODS. Other vehicle armies, like Mech Eldar and Mech Tau, laugh at both of those vehicles. Hint: Eldar will crush you easily, I like to call it mobility. Hint2: Tau are the only army with permanent 4+ cover saves. Sniper dreads fail in the face of Tau.

HotSoup wrote:
I guess using the Emergency Disembarkation rule just never occured to you did you. Insta-rear hatch. Gotta love 5th ed. Either you didn't know of that rule, or you assumed I didn't know it. Either you need to review the changes, or assuming things #5.

Here's where you keep failing. You think I don't know you can't do anything your next turn. Please, emergency disembark. What a silly thing to say. :S

HotSoup wrote:
Yes, I would totally seperate my army against a drop pod army. Totally. I'd probably keep them close enough to support eachother when that drop comes. #6.

Good. Make sure you have them all in a line so I can block you in with drop pods. Man that's good times.

HotSoup wrote:
With their small range, I only need to fear them within 6". Again, 20" charge range.

Again, dropping alpha strike army > LRC crusader army. Lrn2play.

HotSoup wrote:
I've faced... None since I started my LRC army. So I can't say from experience. Until that day, I guess I have to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Holy crap. No drop meltas?! LOLZ.

HotSoup wrote:
Since 9x Las have a little over 1/4 chance of crippling me, I'd love to see how 2x Twin Linked ones do. Same odds of 2x Meltas at 6" range. Makes your squads more appealing, doesn't it.

Oh man. You don't play other armies, do you? Your lack of experience is telling.

First of all, TL lascannons have a much better chance of blowing you up than just lascannons do.

Sadly, Oblits don't get TL lascannons. They get TL meltaguns.

3xmeltaguns, all that hit. We'll do the math in another post.

HotSoup wrote:
If SM have better options, then why do you think BT are better shooters?

SM have DIFFERENT options. They aren't built to be a shooty army as their primary focus, because Jervis doesn't like that.

So I think BT will be a better shooting army because they will still be able to do it.

You DO know I am talking about the NEW Codex, right?

HotSoup wrote:
You know you HAVE to deep strike, right?

Actually not only do I not have to, but...man, read the rules already...why does it matter if I choose to deep strike drop pods? How's this a bad thing?

You really need to play against a drop pod army that auto-enters on turn 2, and you went first. Yes, it kills many armies dead. I'm sure you didn't know that, but that is 1/3 of the deployments ya know. Play more games or something.

HotSoup wrote:
The one Melta is a precaution, I don't intend to use the LRC+Crusader squad to do that, I have vindis/sniper dreads for that.

You gotta show me how vindis are uber tank killers. If Fire Prisms aren't, how are Vindis? You gotta land that template, ya know. Sigh. Vindis as tank killers. Do you play ANY spearhead missions? lol

Sniper dreads rely on lascannons. If my oblits can't kill your vehicles, why can you kill vehicles with only 1 gun instead of 3? How DOES that work?

HotSoup wrote:
With 5th ed the way it is, I'd say both the LRC and Crusader Squad can deal with all threads decently. Sure, they do better against inf squads that sit there, but they can kill tanks with the new rules, and kill elite infantry.

Oh man. You cannot kill Terminators with all of your wounds without that IC. I hope you know that, and that he's probably not even going to be targeted--because when you fight Templar, you overload their crappy squads with THIRTY GUYS and win combat, then watch them AND their IC take a bunch of fearless wounds, and disappear. Tell your opponents to play better. Hell just tell them to throw everything at one of your two bricks until it's gone. You won't win any games then.

HotSoup wrote:
They have cheaper models, less damaging to heavy weapon special rules, and more shooty options. So vSM are better at shooting. QED.

Talking about the new SM codex. Clue in.

HotSoup wrote:
Podding Meltas don't even come in the first of those two turns, my point still stands, you just wasted time typing that.

They...don't? Why not? If I have 6 drop pods, 3 should come in on turn 2. Do you even play 40k? Good lord.

HotSoup wrote:
With Zeal, they are going 12" or so a turn. 18" max. Not that hard to catch Rhinos. Especially since they are within 6" the first time I'm out. Hardly Slow.

LOL! You ARE new to Black templar crusader armies, aren't ya.

They suck because everyone knows to crush your units one at a time, and watch the corpses ZEAL.

You never EVER fire at a templar squad unless you are going to fire EVERYTHING at it.

I can only assume because you keep talking like this, that what I think is true--your GT greats aren't so great, and you should place more value on your OWN skill than that of those around you.

HotSoup wrote:
That's #8. I never quoted from the FAQ. Only from the Cron Dex. It says, in there, under living metal, only unaugmented S can be used, period, against the tank. Last sentence in there. Which can also applies to P-fists, since that used to be FAQ'ed(I think), but no longer.

In the 5th edition rulebook, tank hunters gives +1 to AP rolls.

I am only talking about tank hunters, NOT the strength bonus.

See, +1 to AP rolls is NOT augmenting strength (because it doesn't SAY SO!).

HotSoup wrote:
Nope. Read that last sentence. unaugmented S only.

Grats. You failed to read the Codex, the 5E rulebook, and the relevant FAQ's.

Now combine all our powers together, Captain Planet.

Yay! Tank hunters works on Necron Monoliths because GW (ready?):

DELETED THAT BIT FROM THE NECRON FAQ WHEN 5E CAME OUT!

Bang.

im currently staring dead at my necron codex and the lith rule applies to rolling more then one dice and anything that makes its armor count as lower then 14, never says anything about strength modifiers at all anywhere in the whole of the entry, might i ask where you see it?

It used to be in the Necron FAQ.

It's been removed per GW's new emphasis on 'use your damn codex' policy. lol

Wow. Hey guys, remember me? The OP?

This devolved fast, but actually reading over all these bantering arguments I've picked up a few things.

I'll probably post a new list soon, but look for it in another thread (yay another BT thread! just what we need more of...) as this one has sorta corkscrewed off somewhere...

Mathhammering:

========Marine/Vet Meltaguns===========

Hit 66% of the time.

With smoke (1 turn only) you gain 50% cover.

Damage results that matter:

2 (becomes a weapon destroyed).
3 (becomes a immobilized).
4+ (vehicle dies).

So 50% of the time that a melta goes through, you die.

Bearing in mind that below average dice (5 or less) don't do anything; how many melta shots do we actually need to kill a LR?

Well let's see, I think statistically the number is at least 9 during 'cover' turns.

Of course, that belies the reality that you don't really need 9 but sure let's play.

6 hit.
2 don't go through.
4 do.
2 are ignored by cover.
1 blows you up.

You show me 9 meltaguns and I'll show you 2 that will probably kill you anyway. How's them apples?

Btw, how is your LRC firing when it's popping smoke? How does that work? The need to kill the enemy with the meltaguns but the inability to do so without jumping your cargo out when you don't want to?

Ah tactics, always good to see those.

========Lascannons=========

There are others that ran numbers for lascannons, but bear in mind you are essentially correct:

9 cannons fire, 6 hit, 1 pen, 1 glance.

On the glance: 5 kills a weapon, 6 immobilizes. So 33% something bad happens.

On the pen: It's a straight roll. If you are smoked, it's a 50/50 shot you ignore the pen or the glance generated.

Since you'll be fired at twice by the lascannons from oblits, let's just say 2 glances and 1 pen go through.

On the 3 rolls, we need a 6/6/4+ to occur for the lascannon fire to stop you. Are these good odds? Nope, but am I willing to discount them? I know in 4 of 5 games nothing might happen. Then in that 5th game both LR get stopped turn 1, and you face an autoloss. That's the danger of bringing so few (and expensive) units whose goal is to transport troops into battle. Did you notice in my 'fun' list, it's got two big super units of termies but nowhere will I list it as competitive? Because it's very vulnerable.

We're also assuming there aren't triple termies dropping in to triple melta you (popular in some Chaos circles). Cheap and effective usually = popular. lol

==========Tau Rail Rifles============

Ok for some reason, no one runs this config in your store but here we go:

8 pathfinders light up your Raider.
4 markerlights hit.

3 Broadsides fire at your Raider, using 1 markerlight to boost to BS4 (ok, probably 5 but whatever). It's twin-linked, so we'll just assume they all hit. Yes it's possible but not likely that there will be a miss.

We'll play a little unfair, despite what the dice really do on the tabletop (it's called dice weighting). We'll say 1 does nothing, 1 glances, and 1 pens.

As we know from earlier, the pen kills you on a 4+, but more importantly it immobilizes you on a 3+.

The glance is however, more dangerous than it was before (yes, I know meltaguns can glance but it's only 1 chance out of 12, unlike this example where it's 1 chance in 6).

On a 4+, you lose a weapon. 5+, you are immobilized, and on a 6, you die.

See? Two chances to stop you...33% on the glance and 66% on the pen. To kill you, there is a 1 in 6 and a 3 in 6 chance.

Odds of you getting across the table versus a broadside heavy army supported by pathfinders?

I won't say it's impossible, how's that?

Stelek wrote:You are correct, it is a middling BT list.

I'm glad I can't read the blue text, I'm sure it'd make my eyes hurt anyway.

I will post a few of the BT lists I'm working on. They are works in progress, but I think they are superior to this mix you've got.

The first is an assaulty force:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/216696.page

The second is a shooting force:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/216697.page

Gak. Wow those are an awful couple of lists. The first doesn't have the bodies or speed to deal with anything fast and the second doesn't have nearly enough shooty.

ender502

Sorry dude, just cannot do this anymore. Your fail sarcasm, your fail grammar, your inability to type in paragraphs, your inability to read my posts correctly, your fetish for meltaguns, I just am not doing it. Drop the prickishness, stop the sarcasm, drop it. God. No wonder no one no one replies to you besides me. I guess I learned, finally.

Also, it says, in the cron dex, only unaugmented S only. It says it. Not FAQ. You only use your unaugmented S when rolling for Armor Pen. That means no S upgrades, no Tank Hunters, ect. It says that. Plainly, clearly. Not in the FAQ, in the rulebook. I guess they reliezed they shouldn't cater to people who purposely misread rules. It is kind of clear. I'll post a SS if you want it.

Also, it isn't that hard to get 50% of a LR covered. Most woods or hills can do that just fine. But, again, I'm done, ect. I will rarely reply to you now, I see where it leads. It's just not worth it.

Well only we were discussing back and forth. I was hoping to teach you something, but apparently I did fail. For that, I'm sorry.

Tank Hunters do not add to your strength. They add to your die roll. Like it or not, there is a difference. Your assumptions is all that you are going on. You can post a screen shot (or just type it out) I have the same book you do.

You don't seem to understand how drop troops can 'see' your Land Raiders. Is there like a box canyon on the table you play on? Can they not land on the hill and shoot you clearly? I'm not sure if I'm missing something or you are.

ok so would it be better to take a pred annihilator with las sponsons or hb sponsons?
if i run a list similar to this

My opinion is to specialize vehicles, especially the Predator, so I'd go either solid lascannons, or autocannon and heavy bolters, not a mix of both! I mean if you need to fire the TL lascannon at a vehicle and it doesn't do the job and all you with left are heavy bolters... then what? Mixing means you are guaranteed that almost every turn one of those weapons will be useless.

Of course you could just get a 2nd turret sprue to make the other turret variant and put magnets in your sponson weapons...