Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was considering this the other day, as we will be starting to travel a bit to stores and play with unknowns more often...our 'Counts As' might have issues. In addition, with the new Marine Dex around the corner...and counts as Special Characters sure to be surfacing, there might be issues.

So what do you consider too far? For example;

Special Character Joe has;
Twin LCS

So, I model a character with a giant sword and make the fluff 'The sword is so massive yet the character is so experienced with it, it strikes at normal Ini yet re-rolls wounds'. The rules match up, yet it will take some deal of explanation.

Or

Special Character Bill has;
An additional attack over normal Chapter Masters
Storm Shield

So, I model a character with two power weapons and make the fluff 'The character is a blade master, so therefore gains +1 A AND receives a 3+ Inv. parry save'


Or

Normal GK Character Dave is equipped with;
Psycannon

So I model a normal character with no gun. Instead of a gun, I just write fluff that he is a very powerful psyker that has a power during the shooting phase with psycannon stats.

Of course, the more counts as you have...the more explanation/chance for confusion. So where do you guys draw the line and why?

In friendly games maybe this could be acceptable, but I personally think every one of your examples is over the line. It goes totally against the WYSIWYG idea of 40K AND with the addition of your "fluff" begins to have shadows of home-made codex syndrome.

If you make your guys like this I'd have a nice back-up way to still field them. IE: When no one lets you play the guy with the huge sword as some special character, then field him as a normal commander with a master crafted power weapon.

I am pretty lax when if comes to WYSIWYG. Just tell me ahead of time so I know what is what.

Where it becomes a problem for me is when your opponent starts to play 3-card Monty with the models and units.
For example: Like when you kill a squad that he said earlier that had a powerfist wielding Vet Sgt with all the upgrades, and then when he charges you with a squad that he said earlier that had no upgrades, and now all of a sudden the squad has the Vet. Sgt in it, etc.

One thing I do hate though is when my opponent starts to complain about WYSIWYG about very minor things when they start to lose. In a tournement I brought a chaos rhino with a pinicle combi-flamer (which was modeled), but he was upset when I tried to shoot he rhinos regular combi-bolter. In my experiance 95% of rhino do not have there bolters modeled.

I don't proxy anything.

If I'm using a special character model as a standard character I'll ensure that I equip him with whatever the model has (where possible).

The only things I don't model are numerous wargear items that change between games and vehicle ugprades (ie. all my extra armour is 'internally reinforced' because I'm not going to model something I don't take in every game).

BYE

If the model is repped correctly, there is no reason to complain. Pretty much ever.

As far as WYSIWYG I'm very lax. No one around in my casual group really does enough modeling to circumvent it. I'm the only one that ever has had a "counts as" on the table that wasn't Eldrad. I run a CSM Dreadnought that is a conglomeration of parts form different miniatures games with a few GW bits on it (Mainly chainsword parts, a heavy flamer, some spikes and an icon). It looks very Chaos-y and it has all the weapons it should (either ML/DCCW w/ heavy flamer or Autocannon/DCCW w/ Heavy flamer) and no one is ever had a problem with it. But I knew if I took that thing to a GW tourney they would tell me to GTFO with it. I use models from other games for my vampires in WHFB too. They usually never have the equipment they are shown with. I just don't think it is practical in every situation.

But I do understand if someone is saying that all those big arms (mutated arms, arms bigger than the model has but has been converted onto it) are PFs but half the models that have it aren't supposed to have a PF. That is where you draw the line on creative modeling. All the examples you listed work out really well. They are all commanders and should all be very noticeable models. If I were playing against any of those models I would gladly play them and give them a ++ on their creative modeling/fluff. Except the last one. If he just looks like a normal dude F that. But if he has like a stance leaning forward with purple veins popping out of his head and a purple aura or something I would be cool with it.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Special Character Joe has Twin LCS
- I model a character with a giant sword

Special Character Bill has Storm Shield
- I model a character with two power weapons

Normal GK Character Dave is equipped with Psycannon
- I model a normal character with no gun.

So where do you guys draw the line and why?

In general, I like to see that all weapons are clearly represented.

So I am willing to accept paired of push swords or wrist blades as Lightning Claws. I am not likely to see a single sword as Lightning Claws, unless it is Cloud Strive huge.

I would expect to see some kind of shield as a Storm Shield. At least a buckler or something. But no shield at all? That's not good.

If there's no gun modeled, he's going to have to be modelled in the act of making his Psycannon-esqe attack.

This, IMO, is the sort of thing that caused no end of confusion in 2E, with players claiming ordinary dudes (or generic skeletons) as something else:
... "oh, wait, shooting? Lascannon!"
... "oh, wait, close combat? Assassin!"
... "oh, WOUNDED? sorry, ordinary dude"
Yeah, like that didn't get old fast.

So of the 3 examples, I only like the first one if clearly modeled, and the last if very well-modeled.


Now granted that all of my Russes are modeled as turretless SPGs, but at least they're easy to tell based on the weapon barrels (Demolisher Cannon & side plates = Demonsher; long barrel = regular Russ).

So it's just a matter of confusion then from reading the posts. In other words, if it is such a stretch that I will possibly forget what he is truly armed with I won't accept the conversion. What about entire squads? Do you guys allow strangers to use squad 'counts as'?

Really lax, to be honest. I don't proxy a whole lot myself, but when I do, it's against friends and we're in our "trying something wierd" mode. As far as playing against proxies, I don't really care alot. If it starts to get silly, I "motivate" them to work on their army by relentlessly asking the same questions over and over. If it's some kid trying to play shenannigans, I will kindly remind them that the name of the game is 40k. Most people don't try that kind of crap with me, b/c while I'm a pretty friendly guy I will call bs.

I feel the need to bring up The Kid again. Youngster, everyone gave him a helping hand. Claimed dyslexia, but nothing he did fit the symptoms. We overlooked his "mistakes" as long as we could. Until he started playing a "build your own" tyranid army, form the first codex with bio-morphs (wasn't that 3rd? Yeah, had to be). Anyway, you remember how if you were building a warrior, say, you looked intot he back of the book and saw the base cost was 14 points? And then you had all the upgrades below it with the accompaning points cost, seperated by a dash? Well, he claimed the dash was a minus sign, and was subtracting the bio morph and bio weapon points cost from the base price. So that base 14 point warrior easily went into the negatives, usually by 30 points or more the way he decked them out. He actually got paid (in points on the list) for taking models, and his opponents ended up fighting thousands of points worth of bugs. Funny how he never missed on a rules call, however. At that point I heard he got run off, which prior to him could only be done by getting caught stealing I think. ANYWAY, straying back on topic...

I obviousl htink that some leeway is needed for people to try stuff, these models are too chingy for the average joe to bother with trying every idea for an army he has out on pewter and plastic as oppossed to a little counts as action first. Also, if it turns out the proxying fool is actually TFG, then just put him on your do-not-call list and tell all your bros to watch their kiesters. And to scrutinize lists very carefully. This is a right-to-fire community; we don't HAVE to give a reason. But it may help the twisted one out if you do.

Actually, the whole WYSIWYG / counts-as bit is for your opponent's benefit. If you can keep things simple, then you have more leeway. If it becomes confusing or unclear, then that's a problem.

I try to keep stuff simple, it does avoid confusion. Yes if you have a really cool conversion but have it use slightly different rules (the example of the bloke with two swords would have been more like lightning claws than a big ass sword imho) then as long as it's clear go for it.

Likewise themed armies, as long as there's consistancy thats also fine. Hey even people saying, actually this flamer is a melta I can live with. But be clear and try not to have it so a squad of terminators is your ogryns etc..

If its nontournament gaming then alls fair. If your opponent is ok throw down tonka toys and paper chits. As long as the magical everchanging list/models are avoided and all the tonka toys actually have the same loadout to avoid confusion, then you're good to go.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Special Character Joe has;
Twin LCS

So, I model a character with a giant sword and make the fluff 'The sword is so massive yet the character is so experienced with it, it strikes at normal Ini yet re-rolls wounds'. The rules match up, yet it will take some deal of explanation.

Not good. He looks too much like Emperors champion. A marine with two power katanas might count as lightning claws though if the pose is right..

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Special Character Bill has;
An additional attack over normal Chapter Masters
Storm Shield


So, I model a character with two power weapons and make the fluff 'The character is a blade master, so therefore gains +1 A AND receives a 3+ Inv. parry save'

Better. The save could be an upgraded Iron Halo, give him a larger one.

AgeOfEgos wrote:
Normal GK Character Dave is equipped with;
Psycannon

So I model a normal character with no gun. Instead of a gun, I just write fluff that he is a very powerful psyker that has a power during the shooting phase with psycannon stats.

No problem at all, the trick here is not what you equip the miniature with, but his pose. If the character looks like he is casting a psychic power by his pose he will fit. The SM missile launcher left arm is great for caster poses.

As long as things a vaguly similar to what they are suposesd to be at their core, its all good. Guy with a big sword really has lighting claws? That's fine. Guy with the heavy bolter really has a las cannon? No problem there either. Guy in power armor really has terminator armor? That's a little bit of a strech. That rhino is really a land raider? That's totaly out.

Now when you start to make up your own rules, that's where things fall apart really fast. While I'm all down for creativity, the rules and various point costs are there for a reason and most people (although not all) tend to make up things are are overly advantageous for them.

Things I do not WYSIWYG:

Extra armour - Why spoil and expensive Rhino or Russ model by covering it with plasticard. Also I dont know if I can afford it all the time.

Grenades - Too fiddly on the model, and its too picky too. An opponent is supposed to notice that some squads have grenades and others dont.

Any form of field generator other than a KFF. - If a marine has an Iron Halo it is because I say he has. There are too many alternatives that can provide a force field from gorgets, jewellery etc. We still dont know for sure what item in particular gives the Warlocks a save. Is it the runes on the robe?


Other things I put on vehicles but might not pay for.

Smoke launchers and storm bolters/heavy stubbers. - They can go into battle with ammo right.

Space Marine Company standard. - I like giving the command squad a standard, but I dont pay the points for it. In my army the standard is the commander personal banner, held by a faithful command squad member. The Company banner is safe back home.

Phoenix wrote:As long as things a vaguly similar to what they are suposesd to be at their core, its all good. Guy with a big sword really has lighting claws? That's fine. Guy with the heavy bolter really has a las cannon? No problem there either. Guy in power armor really has terminator armor? That's a little bit of a strech. That rhino is really a land raider? That's totaly out.

I think you are looking at subbing rather than counts as. If someone wants to sub an Ultramarine Assault Squad for Death Company becasue they have no death company I would let them. Your heravy bolter is now a lascannon, go ahead. That Russ is actually a Predator, no problem. If you dont have the models go ahead and substitute.

Ageofegos is talking about purposely building minitures that dont look like their profile and wargear, as a permenant part of an army. While I would let a player get away with any character to replace another on the day, on advisement the character should look as close to the original as possible.

de pents if some one wants to try somting new.
I alouw him to yous difrent moddels.
but if juises em alout than he has to juis de rite moddels.

but grenades iron halo's and stuff extra armour if de list sas i has it it has it

A lot of these problems can be avoided before the game begins by players briefly explaining their armies to each other. In tournaments, I find this is absolutely necessary; not only does it help the game flow nicely, but it prevents many of the arguments that might crop up later.

Any model that's done well will generally be accepted. I mutilated a heavy flamer on one of my Terminators when I switched to assault cannons, and made him shinier with a few more purity seals. My explanation for his odd gun is that it's a second-generation Storm Bolter; the Techmarines are testing it out, and it still has two holes in the front, so there have been no continuity issues.

While my conversion was based on frugality, I've seen several nicely done models where asthetics took place before WYSIWYG. (Two handed Crozius, twin-swords counting as Lightning Claws, etc). Not a problem as long as I know what it's really supposed to be BEFORE the game starts.

My army has the following items as counts as:

Auxpex = Chaos icon
Thunderhammers = Powerfists - since Chaos can't have thunderhammers!
Techmarines = Aspiring Champions / Lords
Gun Servitors / Combat Servitors w/ Engiseer as the Champion = Havocs
Converted Mega Armored Nobz = Oblits

All of these are fairly intuitve, but violate the strict interpretation WYSIWYG.

I only have an issue with counts as if it is inconsistent.

if you have 4 vet sargents all with thunderhammers and you are clear that all of the thunderhammers in your army are power fists or power weapons that it is perfectly fine.

but if you have a character with a thunderhammer and his IS a thunderhammer... it had better be marked differently than the rest of them to be clear to the opponent.

for example.. my warboss on bike uses a trukk wrecking ball for a power klaw. nobody gives me grief over that modeling choice.

as long as you are clear about what is what, and you are consistent in their application, I see no reason to not use modeling in a creative fashion as long as it doesn't interfere with gameplay or come across as a deceptive move.

NaZ

In my latest army I have a few "count as" models.
1) The whole army - I'm using blood angels rules but they're all Ultramarines from the 8th company.
2) Death Company - Tyrannic War veterans.
3) Mephiston - Converted plastic marine model armed with the same stuff.
4) Company standard - 8th company standard but using the chapter standard rule.
5) Lemartes - metal Jump pack Chaplain.
6) Dante - Haven't built him yet but the model will not be in form fitting armor with a death mask.
7) Corbulo - Converted plastic marine.
8) Power fist - 1 of my power fists is a 2 handed maul. I explain before the game that all sarge's are armed with fists. This is the only maul in the army.
9) Relic blades - The honor guard will be swinging relic blades (the ultramarine axe in the shape of a )which will count as power fists.

I believe that any marine can represent any other marine as long as they are armed correctly.
I'm sure many of you are familiar with the ___wing concept, where any chapter's paint scheme representing deathwing. I believe that this can be taken to the next level as I will be slowly building all Loyalist marine codexes using the Ultramarines paint scheme.
I'll never go so far as to say "These heavy bolters are lascannons," but I believe that paint scheme does not determine army organization.

Foda_Bett wrote:I believe that any marine can represent any other marine as long as they are armed correctly.

I will be slowly building all Loyalist marine codexes using the Ultramarines paint scheme.

I believe that paint scheme does not determine army organization.

I generally agree with this - make the weapons and wargear obvious.

However, I don't like to see what are clearly Ultras being played as something other than Ultras.

Traditionally, one picks a neutral / DIY paint scheme for a "play all" army. Jervis' grey marines are an example of this.

Orlanth wrote:

Phoenix wrote:As long as things a vaguly similar to what they are suposesd to be at their core, its all good. Guy with a big sword really has lighting claws? That's fine. Guy with the heavy bolter really has a las cannon? No problem there either. Guy in power armor really has terminator armor? That's a little bit of a strech. That rhino is really a land raider? That's totaly out.

I think you are looking at subbing rather than counts as. If someone wants to sub an Ultramarine Assault Squad for Death Company becasue they have no death company I would let them. Your heravy bolter is now a lascannon, go ahead. That Russ is actually a Predator, no problem. If you dont have the models go ahead and substitute.

Ageofegos is talking about purposely building minitures that dont look like their profile and wargear, as a permenant part of an army. While I would let a player get away with any character to replace another on the day, on advisement the character should look as close to the original as possible.

Yes and no. Perhaps I should give another example (one I've seen). Elven sorceress looking model with a staff = farseer? I'm ok with that. Looks about right anyway I guess. I might ask if the staff is a witch blade or a singing spear but once told, it’s all good. The same elven sorceress model is subbing in as a las cannon marine? That might be a bit of a stretch. It would be fine for some sort of chaos sorcerer though. I'm not just talking about models being subbed in because you lack the real one, but in using models that are purposefully modeled to look vastly different from the GW standard.

In general, character models are the easiest to do this with since they stand out and you normally have to explain what they are and what they have anyway. When you do squads, it can get a little trickier. Using a stand-in that kind of fits the same general "idea" of the original unit is what is key. Don't like the models for howling banshees, then use dark eldar witches, or wood elf war dancers, or some other sword wielding models for them (so long as you do it for the whole squad) and its fine. Want your terminators to be cool robots rather than guys in suits? Fine, use some epic scale titans or possibly some battle tech mechs and you should be good (again assuming you keep the squad fairly similar and make sergeants and heavy weapon recognizable).

i wouldn't proxy anything if your facing new people for the first time. get to know them a little then im sure they wouldnt have a problem with cool made up characters. but if you really really want to use him then just ask first but make sure you have a back up plan.

I'm going to step back in here with a few more comments.

1st off, do you really understand the point behind WYSIWYG? You can take your models anywhere in the world and play a game of 40K against people you have never met before without having to first having explain what everything in your army is. Your opponent will know what is what, and be able to remember this throughout the game.

Also, let's look at this idea of "Proxy" vs "Counts As" and see how this fits into WYSIWYG. If say my soda can is a Carnifex I am proxying. The soda can looks nothing like a Carnifex, it doesn't even look like anything on 40K, so it's not hard to look at and remember what it is being played as. If I say my Sergeant hold a Maul has a power weapon, well, power weapons just tend to look like ornate or complex HtH weapons anyways, so this is easy to keep straight. But then Sergeant #1's maul is a power weapon but Sergeant 2, 3 and 4's mace is not a power weapon? See, now this is getting a bit confusing.

Let's take a look at another game that is famous for "counts as" models: Chess. Ever seen those nice fancy themed custom chess sets? They make tons of them, from the Civil War to Transformers to Sponge Bob. Okay, thats fine if you both love Transformers, but if you sit down to play someone who has never even seen it, do you really think they'll be able to tell what transformer is what piece?

I've seen a great converted TAU army, that used all Lizardmen models but they were holding Pulse Rifles. Okay, that's easy enough to keep straight right? All you need to remember is the Lizards are TAU, all the weapons are what we've learned TAU weapons look like. Now though, imagine the same army, Lizards are TAU but the lizards with the green sticks have Pulse Rifles, the lizards with Red sticks have Pulse Carbines. The guy beating the drums in every unit is the unit leader, but the lone guy with the drums with the golden sticks cound as honor blades, got it? Did ya follow that?

Yeah, GW games are not cheap, and so it's good to proxy stuff, or play "count as" sometimes, but this tends to be a slippery slope and pretty soon it gets over the top. You need to keep it simple and be straight forward with your modeling, don't confuse your opponent.

I don't care if it's just a "for-fun" game, I shouldn't need to take notes to keep track of what units in your army are supposed to be!

Swordbreaker wrote:
If I say my Sergeant hold a Maul has a power weapon, well, power weapons just tend to look like ornate or complex HtH weapons anyways, so this is easy to keep straight. But then Sergeant #1's maul is a power weapon but Sergeant 2, 3 and 4's mace is not a power weapon? See, now this is getting a bit confusing.

Apparently I wasn't very clear. I've added a small notice about the fact that the 1 maul is the only one in my army. My other 5 vets have actual power fists.

I draw different lines for my opponent then I do for myself. I try never to proxy, but I'll let my opponent do whatever they want so long as they tell me beforehand.

I think it really comes down to player consideration. If your army is overly confusing for tactical advantage then you are venturing on shaky ground. If you are using count as then your model should represent its adopted rules.

I have used a six-armed model with each hand holding a sword to represent twin lighting claws in my emperor’s children army. In my old LatD zombie army I modeled a rouge psyker on a large base in a posed to suggest he is casting both offensive and defensive spells. I played him as a chaos sorcerer in terminator armor wielding two lighting claws. I justified the claws and armor as a sphere of crackling energy protecting the pysker as he casted his other psyker powers. My aspiring champions leading my zombies were converted fantasy wraiths with death masks and wielding large futuristic scythes. I played them as possessing a powerfist with closecombat weapons.

I never had a problem with people complaining about my armies as the models are in keeping with their rules in terms of their appearance. These models are all characters that take 30 seconds to explain to my opponent. They look their part so it was never a problem.

For characters that are figure heads armed with cool trademark weaponry it is fine, but it gets tedious if the player is going through each of his grunts saying each squad has something this guy has this and this guy has that. If you are frustrating your opponent then you are going to far.

I once played against someone who used a chaos marine as a daemon prince saying he was wearing a magic armor that gave him monstrous creature status. I played him a few games without comment as the abilities of his “daemon prince” changed to represent the most adventurous abilities for the battle at hand. I then politely suggested that he get his off his “magic armor” trip. He argued that it was perfectly acceptable as he created the proper fluff to justify his models abilities. I replied that was fair enough but if he continued to use his marine as a daemon prince I was going to paint one of my guardians feet pink and play him as an avatar saying he found magic slippers that made him a war god, even though I possessed a proper model for the avatar. After that the magic armor went away.

For me, the line is pretty simple. For others, that line may be pretty nebulous.

If I don't readily understand what a model is armed with, it's a no go. Basically, if I have to ask more than once, your army is too confusing.

I'm not talking about things like (for example) Boarboyz as Bikers or having a huge zoggin' sword for a power fist, but when it's not quickly understandable, it's modeling to confuse your opponent, and that is a Bad Thing (tm).

I should add that a good conversion and paint job makes this a lot easier to stomache.

Barkdreg Badtoof

We are living in the Grand Age of Counts As.

That is GW endorsed, no less!

Almost anything goes, though keeping confusion to a minimum is recommended, of course.