Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here is my proposal:

WBB goes away and is replaced by FNP. FNP would work as normal with the following exceptions:

1. If a necron warrior is gated through a monolith teleportation the warrior would be aloud another FNP if they failed their first one.

2. If a necron unit has a model within 6" of a resurrection orb then that unit may make a FNP roll regardless of the AP or Strength of the weapon causing the wound.

Anything I'm missing?

#1)
How would this function differently in the turn order than FNP as gating happens in the Movement portion of the turn.

#2)
makes sense

additional point:
Tomb Spyders need a revised function.

I'd do this:
1. WBB becomes FNP
2. Res Orb grants a 4+ Invulnerable to models within 6" of the Orb
3. Monoliths don't gate, but count as board edge for models in Reserves

according to some early ideas to be leaked from the dev team working of necrons, WBB will likely be replaced with FNP. it is an already existing and understood rule that simplifies things no end. monoliths will probably be changing a bit enyway, so its not too far a stretch to allow one necron unit to reroll FNP per turn.

It seems to make Necrons even more boring and static than they were before. Why not something that doesn't make them shiny metal Plague-bots?

3) Sell your necrons and buy Plague Marines. You'll get more wargear, weapon options, better CC stats, and a higher toughness. As long as you're making Necrons into Nurgle, might as well just go ahead and go all the way.

Functionally, WBB and FNP are about the same. FNP rolls at the time the model is wounded, WBB rolls next turn. For the minor differences, it is totally worth removing the rules arugments related to WBB.

100% with Jonnyboy on this one.

WBB is fine as a concept, but as a set of rules it is far too clunky and time consuming to be worth keeping. Laying models down and needing to measure whether they're in range of like-models or a Tomb Spyder and ... no... forget it.

A FNP save covers this without any problems. The save is taken then and there, and the game continues.

As far as the ResOrb goes, something that we've been testing is a simple 4+(I) save granted to all models (not units) within 6" of the Lord. Again, this avoids the need for another set of clunky exceptions to the FNP rules.


And for the Monolith... well the rules I wrote originally, but haven't tested yet, basically state that when a unit Teleports through a Monolith, it regains D3 wounds. So if I send a unit of Warriors through the Monolith, and roll a 2 on my D3, two more Warriors are added to the unit.

BYE

I concur with this idea. WWB is clunky and obnoxious; exceptions, additional specific rules affecting, not everyone has a Necron codex (why would you start an army if you don't have access to the codex? seriously you types of people!), so non-Necron players don't know what's going to happen sometimes (people new to Necrons), and generally is just another thing that needs to be explained thoroughly and so much affects it. Ugh, not worth it to NOT be FNP. I like the 4+ Res. Orb. 6" range applied to MODELS instead of units. All good ideas! I even like how making the Monolith count as a table edge for reserves!

scratch that, not thinking right.
im with john on this one.

H.B.M.C. wrote:


And for the Monolith... well the rules I wrote originally, but haven't tested yet, basically state that when a unit Teleports through a Monolith, it regains D3 wounds. So if I send a unit of Warriors through the Monolith, and roll a 2 on my D3, two more Warriors are added to the unit.

BYE

If you tack on "this cannot make the squad larger than it was at the beginning of the game" to that, it makes me as a Necron player happy.

Alternatively, you could just have the Monolith give all Necrons within a certain range (I'm thinking 24") the ability to re-roll their FNP if the player wants.

Re-rolling doesn't help you if the FNP is ignored in the first place.

But yeah, I'd add a 'cannot be larger than they started' clause to it as well.

BYE

The only flavor over function WBB has over FNP is that WBB is an old movie reference. John has the right idea on this. I love the Monolith as table edge idea.

Bunker wrote:Alternatively, you could just have the Monolith give all Necrons within a certain range (I'm thinking 24") the ability to re-roll their FNP if the player wants.

Wow, that is a *huge* AOE. Due to the size of the Monolith itself, 24" range that doesn't require LOS means that 1 Monolith gives re-rolls to pretty much every Necron on the board - we're talking about circle more than 4 feet in diameter. And that re-roll means you go from 50% FNP to 75% FNP.

It's a valid effect, but if you look at the impact of a well-positioned Monolith (and you can reasonably presume that any Necron player is going to position it *very* well), you can probably gain back over a dozen Necrons on the re-rolls. At roughly 20 pts per Necron, you're looking at recovering 250 pts or so. So that first Monolith has a value of 500+ pts.

IMO, unless you're slapping some pretty huge negatives on that Monolith for balance, it's just too good short of allowing opponents D-strength weapons...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Stuff.

yeah, make it 12". 24" was me at work typing fast and not really thinking it over.

Well, since I can't convince people that changing WBB to FNP makes them less effective nurgle marines, how about this.

Go with the monolith counts as a board edge.

Keep the 12" get to reroll FNP

Res orb allows you to roll FNP no matter what.

WBB gives anything 'Necron' without number.

I know it sounds a bit (maybe way) over the top, but again, unless you boost up stats and improve weaponry and options, you're pretty much still paying for nurgle marines that aren't as good.

dancingcricket wrote:Well, since I can't convince people that changing WBB to FNP makes them less effective nurgle marines, how about this.

It's got nothing to do with comparing them to Plague Marines and more to do with the fact that WBB is a clunky and overly complex system that simply doesn't need to exist when FNP achieves virtually the same goal in a single dice roll.

And who says that WBB to FNP would be the only change. If it makes Warriors into bad troops, then take a look at what else makes up a Necronwarrior and go from there.

BYE

Might want to edit that first sentence.

sourclams wrote:Might want to edit that first sentence.

I'm just trying to emulate my heroes in the GW Dev team.



Thanks for the catch.

BYE

That's why I think a rule resembling the Tyranid Gaunt special rule Without Number would be a better substitute for We'll Be Back.


Combine this with a Deep Strike ability like the current Icon/Homer/Beacon system, and the Monolith Portal, and I think there's something characterful but not too complicated.

Firstly, it plays into the whole hordes of undead space terminator thing, allowing units to be raised or resurrected.

Secondly, it makes the game-play less static and boring, requiring Necron players to solve tactical problems of returning models to play rather than just rolling dice.

We...Will...Be...Back!
If models are wounded by an attack that denies them an armour save, then they are removed from the board as normal.

If models are wounded and fail their saving throw on their last wound, then they are removed from the board and put into reserves.

Instead of falling back a unit of Necrons can be removed from the board and place in reserves.

Players can only make reserve rolls for Necron units that no longer have models on the table, not counting Independent Characters that may have joined the unit.

Orb of Resurrection
Necron units that lack the Deep Strike special rule may Deep Strike within 6" of a model with an Orb of Resurrection. Necron units that Deep Strike within 6" of Orb of Resurrection will not scatter.

Phylactery
A model bearing a Phylactery has the Feel No Pain universal special rule.

Lightening Field
A model bearing a Lightening Field has a 5+ Invulnerable save, and confers that save on any Necron unit it joins. Additionally, any unsuccessful invulnerable saving throws in close combat inflict a S3 hit on the attacking unit.

Veil of Sorrow
So long as a model equpped with a Veil of Sorrow is on the board, the Night Fighting rules are in effect. Additionally, any psyker taking a psychic test rolls 1D6 for their psychic tests and multiply the result by 2.

And you're the one lecturing others about overpowered wargear Nurgy?

The Veil of Sorrow dramatically alters every game it takes part in. Shooty armies become hopeless, and 'Nids and Orks love you. How much would you cost that at? 50? 60? 100 points?

BYE

@Nurglitch, are you Necron player? It sure seems like it...

Veil of Sorrow is huge and game-changing. Why not simply say: Guard and Tau players automatically lose the game!

WBB seems like it hugely penalizes forces who don't gear up with massive anti-MEQ gear to deny Sv3+. Great.

Sometimes it's really annoying that he can't read my posts.

BYE

JohnHwangDD:

My experience has been that Necrons are a shooting-based army, so it balances out and adds a flavourful "Hey, who turned out the lights?!" undead flavour. The Veil of Sorrow also complements the Solar Pulse. Since Imperial Guard have Searchlights, they're better-suited to Night Fighting than Necrons. Likewise the Tau have Blacksun Filters, and Acute Senses on their Battlesuits, and can also outmatch Necrons during Night Fights, unless the Necrons play it close, and thus render themselves vulnerable to assaults, and the majority of weapons that will deny them saving throws.

We'll Be Back already penalizes forces that don't load up on power weapons, monstrous creatures, and ranged weapons that cause Instant Death on T4+. My suggestion simplifies the We'll Be Back conditions, differentiates it from Feel No Pain, and maintains the interesting tactical problem of defending Necron Lords, Monoliths, and Tomb Spyders that confer the WBB bonus. Indeed, as I pointed out, it makes the Necron force more dynamic since the player must balance the Necrons recycling onto the board with the number of available portals.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And you're the one lecturing others about overpowered wargear Nurgy?

The Veil of Sorrow dramatically alters every game it takes part in. Shooty armies become hopeless, and 'Nids and Orks love you. How much would you cost that at? 50? 60? 100 points?

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:Sometimes it's really annoying that he can't read my posts.

BYE

I don't think he has ignored me just yet.

just some other rumors that i have been hearing on necrons..... no more ctans ( ctans moved to appocolyps and given appropriate data sheets) highly customizable lords ( options to mimik ctans) warriors gain rending in CC. A couple new units ( no hints yet) and drastic changes in the mono;ith rules ( an attempt to change their battle feild role. and last but not least maybe another vehicle for necrons, probably smaller. No confermation on any of it, but alot of it sems pretty credable.

Nurglitch wrote:My experience has been that Necrons are a shooting-based army,

unless the Necrons play it close, and thus render themselves vulnerable to assaults, and the majority of weapons that will deny them saving throws.

We'll Be Back already penalizes forces that don't load up on power weapons, monstrous creatures, and ranged weapons that cause Instant Death on T4+. My suggestion simplifies the We'll Be Back conditions,

Against Guard and Tau, your Necrons are unstoppable in Assault. So they can take strong advantage of Veil, move up the Monoliths, and Assault the hell out of either army taking full advantage of your WBB rule.

Your suggestion makes WBB an automatic pass. Under current WBB, half of the stuff killed by non-anti-MEQ gear stays dead. Under your WBB, *none* of that stuff stays dead. As portals move up (and you have a *lot * of them), it becomes a never-ending sea of death. That is why I say that you screw players even harder for not taking max anti-MEQ kit.

JohnHwangDD:

Imperial Guard and Tau have problems with Necrons in assault anyways, and they have the equipment to outshoot a Necron army in a Night Fight scenario.

Something you might consider about the We'll...Be...Back rule that I proposed is that only complete units are available in reserve. That they follow the rules for being in reserve means you must roll for them at the beginning of each turn, and if they show up and there are more units coming in than portals/orbs available, then you lose the units.

Certainly stuff that fails its saving throw does not stay dead, but the interesting part is the time it takes for recycling units to get back into the game.

If the Necron player just sits back in a shooting match, then the likelihood of taking a moral check and falling back, and thus having the opportunity to place the whole unit (the remaining models on the board and any eligible casualties) into reserve to possible arrival at the beginning of their next player turn is small.

If the Necron player takes the fight to the enemy in assaults, they are putting their army at risk of not only more permanent casualties thanks to Power Weapons, but also getting the Chaos Daemon choice of giving the opposing side a free shot if/when that unit comes back into play (supposing it isn't simply tarpitted).

Moreover it's actually easier to deny them use of We'll...Be...Back since all you have to do is deny their armour save: Plasma weapons, for example, suddenly double their effectiveness against Necrons.

It seems that you're radically over-estimating the advantage that my proposal gives to Necrons in an actual game.

I suggest you try playtesting it, substituting the rules in the Necron Codex for the ones I've proposed. Then you will have a better perspective. You might even find you enjoy it(!).

Would your rules still implement the 25% phase rule or is that out too since you technically haven't lost the units that are being pulled back into reserve? And I would argue that there would need to be a different reservation table to roll on (or something where they roll on the chart counting the turn they died as turn 0 and proceed from there). That would make it a little more balanced imo.

Though I totally disagree with the entire game being a night-fight. That breaks the game.

Pook:

We'll...Be...Back, Orb of Resurrection, Phylactery, and Lightening Field are all proposed to replace their equivalents in the Necron Codex. Veil of Sorrow is a proposed addition to the wargear in the Codex. So yes, the Phase Out rule remains.

Given that the Phase Out rule remains ceteris paribus in my proposal, and given that, according to my proposal, casualties are not available from reserve until the rest of the unit can be put into reserve, phasing out a Necron army remains a live option for the opposing player, and We'll...Be...Back is well balanced (and better balanced than its predecessor rule).

Likewise, a strategy of destroying portal/orb units like Monoliths and Necron Lords will enable players to inflict Deep Strike loses on the Necron player as units returning immediately from reserve either have no portal to enter from, or orb to prevent Deep Strike mishaps.

Having the entire game as a Night Fight is perfectly fair since the only item that allows Necrons any ability to engage in a Night Fight is the Solar Pulse. They do not have Blacksun Filters, Acute Senses, Seachlights, or hard-hitting assault troops. Indeed, the Night Fight part of the Veil of Sorrow balances out the powerful anti-psycker protection that the Veil of Sorrow confers.