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I have not seen an FAQ on wargear that has not come out in Codexes yet, however I fail to see how Searchlights are supposed to help? Yes if the searchlight hits then the whole army can fire upon 1 unit, but it also lights up the targeter which will be priority #1 when it becomes the necrons turn. Also in the General Rulebook they took out the Acute Senses special rule, so the point is moot.

Also the Blacksun filter only helps the particlar MODEL that has taken the equipment upgrade, so you're talking a tank and maybe one more model in a whole army that is now reduces to (at max) 36" and relies heavily on out ranging all opponents.

While the basic trooper is not a "hard hitting assault troop" every army has some specialists and I know necrons have some pretty devastating melee squads. Not all armies even take the assault squads, and I can think of several armies that are far more fragile than the necrons in CC (Tau come immediately to mind).

I guess I really can't see a reason to make the entire game night fight, it seems broken for one side and while it is not an "I win" button it certainly changes the necessary tactics far more than any other armies wargear can.

Granted right now it's all hypothetical and you can do whatever you want with home-grown rules as long as the opponent consents, I just know I never would to that particular one.

Oh and I still think that if you get a full unit it reserve for whatever reason (falling back, power weapon kills, failed WBB tests) they should still have to roll to get back into the game and I still think that they should at least not be able to come back in the very next turn.

Pook:

You have to pick your targets with Searchlights, that's for sure. The thing is that you get the first shot, and that's quite an advantage. Not quite the advantage of a Blacksun filter, but it spreads around the army more evenly, particularly if the tank hangs back behind cover.

Acute Senses is in the Rulebook in the section on Universal Special Rules. See p.75.

A Blacksun Filter on a Hammerhead makes it singularly the most effective tank in the game during a Nightfight, and effective at killing both Monoliths and Necrons alike.

Regarding Necron assault troops, the 5th edition of Warhammer 40k has a feature that I personally enjoy, particularly with the weaker combat armies, is that one squad gets massacred in an assault, and suddenly the enemy is sitting there right in template range ready to be shot to bits.

While you may consider it hypothetical, I'm drawing on my own experience with Night Fights and from my experiences playtesting this We'll...Be...Back rule (If you run a search I first proposed it some time ago). Naturally you'll want to test unfamiliar things out in a safe environment before using them in a competitive one, but it's important with rules like this that you try them first.

One advantage that I think this Veil of Sorrows wargear confers is providing a use for all the Night Fighting equipment that usually gets left behind when people are planning armies. But since it's not directly on topic and distracting from discussing We'll Be Back and alternatives (particularly alternatives besides my own...), how about we take it up in another thread?

Thanks for directing me to the rule, I skipped right over it since I was looking for "Acute Sense" not Night Fighters. If you want to continue discussing it in another thread that's fine with me, I don't think I really have that much more to say about it until I manage to get a chance to face a) a Necron player and b) a Necron player that thinks he's being hosed and wants to try new rules. But thanks for the offer.

Noticed that Nurglith didn't put FNP in for the necron warriors. With that setup, I can actually sort of see it. It's flavorful and different than FNP, maintaining their uniqueness as an army. It does make me a bit more concerned about phase out, since res orb would no longer let you get the chance to get back up regardless, but the 5+ invulnerable instead would be very usefull as a compensation, but not overwhelming.

So, what about the shooting? Rending seems a bit much, I like the current gauss rule, but make it AP1 vs vehicles only, would bring it back to where it was.

Also, would you keep the stats the way they are? One thing about the without number gaunts is that they did die really easily. (Not that it's much of a consolation if their in squads of 32, and there are a bunch of them.) On things with MEQ stats I can see an argument against it being reasonably valid, at least without making them a bit more pricey. They are losing FNP in the bargain though, so I'd say no more than 20 each.

Iron out a couple details on it to make it a bit clearer, and I'm reasonably sure I can find someone to playtest it this weekend, definitely by next weekend. It actually sounds decent enough that it makes necrons sound exciting again.

dancingcricket:

Which detailed need to be ironed out and clarified?

1. We...Will...Be...Back!
If models are wounded by an attack that denies them an armour save, then they are removed from the board as normal.

If models are wounded and fail their saving throw on their last wound, then they are removed from the board and put into reserves.

Instead of falling back a unit of Necrons can be removed from the board and placed in reserves, where they are rejoined by any casualties that were previously placed in reserve.

Players can only make reserve rolls for Necron units that no longer have models on the table, not counting Independent Characters that may have joined the unit. Units that were removed from the board can only return to the board from reserves via Deep Strike (if they have that special rule) or via the portal of a Monolith.

2. Phase Out
If a Necron army has less than 25% of its Necron models on the table at the end of any game turn, then it will disappear in an eerie fashion from the battlefield. This gives an automatic victory to the enemy, a Wipeout as specified on p.90 of the rulebook.

Remember that you only count models with the Necron special rule, so C'tan, Pariahs, Scarab swarms, Monoliths and Tomb Spyders do not contribute to the total number of Necron in the army or to the current number of casualties. However, when Phase Out occurs, the whole Necron army, including models without the Necron special rule, is removed from the table.

3. Tomb Spyders.
Tomb Spyders confer Feel No Pain on Necron units with a model within 6" of a Tomb Spyder.

4. Monoliths: Power Matrix, Option 2:
In the Movement phase it may use its portal to allow a single Necron unit (specifically Warriors, Immortals, Flayed Ones, Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers or Wraiths) and any Necron Lord that has joined such a unit in reserves to enter play from reserves.

5. Orb of Resurrection
Necron units that lack the Deep Strike special rule may Deep Strike within 6" of a model with an Orb of Resurrection. Necron units that Deep Strike within 6" of Orb of Resurrection will not scatter.

6. Phylactery
A model bearing a Phylactery has the Feel No Pain universal special rule.

7. Lightening Field
A model bearing a Lightening Field has a 5+ Invulnerable save, and confers that save on any Necron unit it joins. Additionally, any unsuccessful invulnerable saving throws in close combat inflict a S3 hit on the attacking unit, resolved at the same Initiative interval.

Nurglitch wrote:Imperial Guard and Tau have problems with Necrons in assault anyways, and they have the equipment to outshoot a Necron army in a Night Fight scenario.

Something you might consider about the We'll...Be...Back rule that I proposed is that only complete units are available in reserve. That they follow the rules for being in reserve means you must roll for them at the beginning of each turn, and if they show up and there are more units coming in than portals/orbs available, then you lose the units.

Certainly stuff that fails its saving throw does not stay dead, but the interesting part is the time it takes for recycling units to get back into the game.

If the Necron player takes the fight to the enemy in assaults, they are putting their army at risk of not only more permanent casualties thanks to Power Weapons, but also getting the Chaos Daemon choice of giving the opposing side a free shot if/when that unit comes back into play (supposing it isn't simply tarpitted).

Moreover it's actually easier to deny them use of We'll...Be...Back since all you have to do is deny their armour save: Plasma weapons, for example, suddenly double their effectiveness against Necrons.

First off, I don't want playing Necrons to always be a special scenario to the Necrons advantage. At that rate: Imperial Guard - at the end of an enemy assault move, Guardsmen may choose to stand and shoot but may not make regular close-combat attacks... Or better yet: Tanglefoot world - all movement counts as difficult and dangerous terrain; NO terrain blocks LOS. What fun! When you fundamentally change the rules of engagement, it really doesn't matter what else you do "for balance", because the opponent isn't afforded similar opportunity to prepare for your scenario.

Second, how exactly do they lose units? There won't be so many Necron units in reserve to begin with, being MEQs with Sv3+. I would suspect 2 or 3 portals would be plenty enough to ensure a win.

If it's good for them to stay off board, then let them stay dead. Unlimited recycling is just more stuff to keep track of and dragging the game along.

Against Guard and Tau, *what* power weapons are the Necrons going to be fearing? And presuming that the Guard player gears up his units with loads of WS3 S3 Sergeants with power weapons across the board, isn't that a huge waste of points in every single remaining matchup?

And as I noted before, anti-MEQ weapons are no worse than before, as stuff still stays dead. In fact, they're better, because they're the only way to prevent models from coming back.


Anyhow, this is a very poor suggestion to play against, and I'm surprised to see it coming from you. It would be better if Necrons continued to play closer to current style, but cleaned up.

____


You asked about clarifications. When a "full" unit is wiped, partly to anti-MEQ and partly not, is that a complete unit or ineligible due to the "missing" models? Exactly what do you mean by "full"? All dead, or all available in Reserve?

JohnHwangDD:

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the proposed wargear Veil of Sorrow isn't always to the Necron's advantage - it's a reasonable psychic defense offset by the Necron disadvantages during a Night Fight.

The Tau and the Imperial Guard have a very definite shooting advantage in Night Fights thanks to the wargear I listed, Searchlights and Acute Senses being virtually automatic in each force, and Blacksun Filters being cheap. The reference to Power Weapons was to other armies, like Eldar, who genuinely do have poor Night Fighting capabilities. These armies, the Tau and the Imperial Guard also have a tactical advantage where the Necrons attempt to close, which I also explained.

Anyhow, back to discussing We'll Be Back and my proposal for replacing item with We'll...Be...Back.

The Necron army can lose units in two ways, according to my proposal. Firstly, units that return to play must return by Deep Strike or portal. If they are not Deep Strike enabled, then they can return to play using a Lord with an Orb of Resurrection (so the Necron player faces a choice in wargear of having more points to recycle units back into the game or playing a Night Fight...).

Units that Deep Strike outside of the Lord's accurate bubble may be lost according to the Deep Strike rules. If there is no Lord or portal available when a unit becomes available in reserves and makes its reserve roll, it is a permanent casualty since it can't return to the board.

Moreover, if the entire army Phases Out, as I have proposed, then you lose every unit (go transitive properties of armies!). If you're planning on maxing out on portals, then you're going to be low on anti-tank firepower (Heavy Destroyers), toughness (Tomb Spyders), and Necron models (Monoliths!). If you're planning on taking two Orbs of Resurrection, then you're going to be severely limited in what other wargear you can take.

What you call "anti-MEQ" weapons are more accurately called "Anti-Necron" or "Anti-Feel No Pain" weapons, because while a Sv3+ is defeated by AP3- weapons, We'll Be Back and Feel No Pain are defeated by Instant Death weapons and Power Weapons (additionally AP2- weapons for Feel No Pain).

We'll Be Back gives Necrons a sure defense against S7- AP3- weapons such as Plasma Weapons. There is no 1:1 comparison between the weapons that are maximally effective against Necrons and those that are maximally effective against Marines where We'll Be Back is concerned. We'll...Be...Back does in fact make Necrons vulnerable to the same sorts of weapons that Space Marines are vulnerable to.

Onto clarification. I think I've re-written whatever used that "full" term that confuses you. Please let me know if this clarifies matters:

If 6 members of a unit are removed as casualties when they fail a saving throw, they are placed in reserve. If 4 other members of a unit are removed as casualties when they were denied a saving throw, then they are casualties are normal. Once all of the models have been removed from the table, the 6 placed in reserve will become eligible to come back onto the table at the start of the next Necron movement phase.

Necrons want to be at 12", so Nightfight helps them get there as shooty armies can't shoot them first.

Sorry, this is another one of those rare times when I am 100% with DD. Your Veil of Shadows is too much of a game altering piece of equipment. It means that every game against Necrons is with Night Fight, all the time. That's just crazy.

BYE

Nurglitch wrote:(stuff)

Ugh. Try this instead:
1. WBB = USR FNP. Simple, fast, clear, easy. Also, why you insist on something completely different in a thread labeled "WBB to FNP" is beyond me - maybe you should start a new thread?

2. Phase Out = if at any time, there are less than 2 units of Necron Warriors on the board, the entire Necron army Phases Out. Calculating 25% is a pain. Looking for Necron Warrior units is simple, fast, clear, and easy. It can be done by inspection and resolved in an instant.

3. Tomb Spyders = re-roll d3 failed FNP for models within 6".

4. Monolith = counts as board edge for 1 unit coming in from Reserves

5. Rez Orb = 4+ Invulnerable Save for models within 6"

The point is to get rid of all of the recordskeeping and exception-tracking. Make it fast and easy.

1. We...Will...Be...Back!
If models are wounded by an attack that denies them an armour save, then they are removed from the board as normal.

If models are wounded and fail their saving throw on their last wound, then they are removed from the board and put into reserves.

Instead of falling back a unit of Necrons can be removed from the board and placed in reserves, where they are rejoined by any casualties that were previously placed in reserve.

How does sweeping advance affect this? Do they go into the reserves, or do normal sweeping advance rules apply and they are destroyed and go into the pile where they can't come back?

Players can only make reserve rolls for Necron units that no longer have models on the table, not counting Independent Characters that may have joined the unit. Units that were removed from the board can only return to the board from reserves via Deep Strike (if they have that special rule) or via the portal of a Monolith.

2. Phase Out
If a Necron army has less than 25% of its Necron models on the table at the end of any game turn, then it will disappear in an eerie fashion from the battlefield. This gives an automatic victory to the enemy, a Wipeout as specified on p.90 of the rulebook.

It's not impossible to have less than 25% of the force that count as necrons actually deploy on the first round, since reserves don't come in till round 2, it has the potential to be a auto-lose. Additionally, a reasonable amount of shooting and a poor reserve roll can wipe you out in round 2, or turn 1 if you go first, while you still have 60 warriors waiting to come on. You're also prevented from starting off with everything in reserves, or having any chance in a tournament where troops etc., don't start on the board.

Remember that you only count models with the Necron special rule, so C'tan, Pariahs, Scarab swarms, Monoliths and Tomb Spyders do not contribute to the total number of Necron in the army or to the current number of casualties. However, when Phase Out occurs, the whole Necron army, including models without the Necron special rule, is removed from the table.

3. Tomb Spyders.
Tomb Spyders confer Feel No Pain on Necron units with a model within 6" of a Tomb Spyder.

Well, pretty much going to see Tomb spyders in everyones lists.

4. Monoliths: Power Matrix, Option 2:
In the Movement phase it may use its portal to allow a single Necron unit (specifically Warriors, Immortals, Flayed Ones, Destroyers, Heavy Destroyers or Wraiths) and any Necron Lord that has joined such a unit in reserves to enter play from reserves.

Do you still get to pull a unit on the table through it?

5. Orb of Resurrection
Necron units that lack the Deep Strike special rule may Deep Strike within 6" of a model with an Orb of Resurrection. Necron units that Deep Strike within 6" of Orb of Resurrection will not scatter.

6. Phylactery
A model bearing a Phylactery has the Feel No Pain universal special rule.

7. Lightening Field
A model bearing a Lightening Field has a 5+ Invulnerable save, and confers that save on any Necron unit it joins. Additionally, any unsuccessful invulnerable saving throws in close combat inflict a S3 hit on the attacking unit, resolved at the same Initiative interval.

Why the 5+ invulnerable here and not as a bonus given by the res orb?






Are there any point variations, or changes to stats to take into acct? Is the gauss rule still there, as is? If it's turn 5+ do they automatically come in? Can they come in from the board edge? If it's a unit that has infiltrate, can it outflank when it comes in after being repaired, or must it deepstrike/portal? May have more questions in a bit.

Shooty armies can shoot them first though. Tau get Acute Senses and Blacksun Filters, Imperial Guard and Marines of all stripes get Searchlights.

Likewise, as I explained since the Veil of Sorrow is an item of wargear rather than a general rule for the army like Daemonic Assault, the Necron player will be faced with the choice of taking it or taking other and perhaps more useful wargear. Considering the abilities and restrictions on the Solar Pulse, I would expect it to be a 60 item like the Veil of Darkness.

Again, 100% with DD again, except the D3 re-roll thing. That's just adding an extra Step. Tomb Spyders can just be a re-roll for models within 6".

Yeah, powerful, but given they're up against Monoliths and Heavy Destroyers as competition, they need something good.

But everything he said just cuts down on the clutter that goes with Necrons. No record keeping, no complicated recycling of models. Everything is done then and there, and the game moves on.

Even the Phase Out idea is great, although if it were 25% of Necron units (as opposed to Necron models) it wouldn't be such a bad thing.

BYE

dancingcricket:

Q1. Falling Back and Sweeping Advance

A:The Necron player can either put the unit's survivors in reserve before the Sweeping Advance, or they can try to survive the Sweeping Advance. There's no We'll...Be...Back from failing to escape a Sweeping Advance.

Why would the Necron player risk this? Well, to avoid a Phase Out, for one thing. Because there are no more portals or orbs left on the board, for another.

Q2. Automatic Loss due to Rain

A: It is entirely possible with the Phase Out rule I've drawn up for the Necron player to lose on turn 1. This was the first thing that struck me as a I thought about it, and after considering a few alternatives to prevent it, I figured it was the player's responsibility to build an army that wouldn't concede the game.

Still, as you point out that wouldn't work well with non-standard missions. So how about fixing it so:

2. Phase Out (Revised)
If a Necron army has less than 25% of its Necron models on the table at the end of game turn 3-7, then it will disappear in an eerie fashion from the battlefield. This gives an automatic victory to the enemy, a Wipeout as specified on p.90 of the rulebook.

Q3. A preponderance of Spyders

A: Maybe. Considering that Monoliths are vital for We'll...Be...Back if the Necron player is to have flexible Lords, and Heavy Destroyers are important for knocking out Land Raiders, I think players might be faced with a bit of a decision.

Also, as JohnHwangDD reminds us, weapons that will deny We'll...Be...Back are many of the same weapons that will deny Feel No Pain.

Q4. Portals
A: No, that bit of text replaces the longer referenced text in Codex: Necrons entirely. Pulling Necrons out of combat is now accomplished by having them We'll...Be...Back instead of falling back, and returning from reserves next turn (if they make their reserves roll).

Q5. Lightening Field

A: Firstly, the Resurrection Orb effect on We'll Be Back is covered by the Orb of Resurrection effect on We'll...Be...Back. Secondly, my thought was that either the Lightening Field blocked an attack or the attacker got zapped. Thirdly, it's supposed to be an item that helps to actively defend Necrons from close combat attack, rather than enhancing We'll...Be...Back.

Q6. Are there any points changes or stats changes to take into account?
A: No, treat everything else in the book as normal - unless I missed something and it needs to be changed to cohere with other changes; in which case post it here (or in a new thread...).

Q7. Is the Gauss rule still there?
A: Yes, since I haven't proposed any change to it. It seems like a good rule, particularly since vehicles can now be destroyed by enough glancing hits.

Q8. If it's turn 5+ do they automatically come in?
A: If it's Turn 5+ then the Necrons start recycling automatically, what ever is left to recycle...

Q9. Can they come in from the board edge?
A: Units that were removed from the board can only return to the board from reserves via Deep Strike (if they have that special rule) or via the portal of a Monolith.

Q10. If it's a unit that has infiltrate, can it outflank when it comes in after being repaired, or must it deepstrike/portal?
A: The unit has to Deep Strike or come in through a portal. They've just been freshly repaired, they haven't been lurking around the battlefield infiltrating the environs for the past few days.

IMO, the fact that your proposal needs a 10-point FAQ within as many hours of being proposed is a problem.

JohnHwangDD:

You're right. If I was professional like the Design Studio at GW I'd wait two years!

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, the fact that your proposal needs a 10-point FAQ within as many hours of being proposed is a problem.

LOL, really can't argue with that one. Though he actually has a FAQ within 10 hours of the questions going up shows that he's 100's of times faster and more informative than GW ever has been.

I sound like a broken record here I know, but I share DD's feelings here. The solutions that we agree on are simple and elegant. This requires a whole new system of record that, whilst sound in its construction, doesn't really add a whole lot to the game.

Ask this question:

Is it fun?

BYE

To be fair, a 10 point FAQ while a set of rules is in the proposal stage is pretty good.

H.B.M.C.:

I think it's fun. Only one way for you to find out if you share that opinion though.

Nurglitch wrote:If I was professional like the Design Studio at GW I'd wait two years!

No, if you were truly professional, there wouldn't need to be any FAQ at all.

What you have is a mess that would only generate more questions and problems down the line as increasing numbers of players attempt to deal with them. In short, we simply trade one set of bad rules for another set of bad rules. That is not what we call progress. That is what we call the *opposite* of progress.

Nurglitch wrote:To be fair, a 10 point FAQ while a set of rules is in the proposal stage is pretty good.

Again, that presumes that one writes rules so badly and amateurishly that a FAQ would be required in the first place.

It's like NASA saying, well, we're lucky that the rocket exploded on the pad, before it got off the ground, rather than over Orlando where many more people would have been affected...

Nurglitch wrote:I guess what I'm trying to say is that the proposed wargear Veil of Sorrow isn't always to the Necron's advantage

And I guess what you're not understanding is that any player who would take Veil of Sorrow *would* take it to their advantage. All the time.

Nurglitch wrote:The Tau and the Imperial Guard have a very definite shooting advantage in Night Fights thanks to the wargear I listed, Searchlights and Acute Senses being virtually automatic in each force, and Blacksun Filters being cheap.

Except that neither Tau nor Guard have Searchlights / Acute Senses / Blacksun Filters by default. Now if you do like the horribly stupid X-Hunters Adversaries rules and give them these things for free in the scenario, then that would be fair. But then it would defeat the point of having Veil in the first place. Which means that the Veil doesn't need to exist. Which is why it's a bad piece of wargear that never should have been proposed.

Let me see if I can be any more clear:
- Veil makes playing Necrons even less fun because it permanently denies players their special stuff
- Veil has no meaningful restrictions to prevent abuse
Quite frankly, if this became real, I see Veil becoming the next Fzorgle. It's that bad.

Sorry.

Nurglitch wrote:Anyhow, back to discussing We'll Be Back and my proposal for replacing item with We'll...Be...Back.

What you call "anti-MEQ" weapons are more accurately called "Anti-Necron" or "Anti-Feel No Pain" weapons, because while a Sv3+ is defeated by AP3- weapons, We'll Be Back and Feel No Pain are defeated by Instant Death weapons and Power Weapons (additionally AP2- weapons for Feel No Pain).

We'll Be Back gives Necrons a sure defense against S7- AP3- weapons such as Plasma Weapons. There is no 1:1 comparison between the weapons that are maximally effective against Necrons and those that are maximally effective against Marines where We'll Be Back is concerned. We'll...Be...Back does in fact make Necrons vulnerable to the same sorts of weapons that Space Marines are vulnerable to.

The only AP3 anti-MEQ weapons that don't negate FNP are Eldar Reaper Launchers. Fat lot of good that does for Guard or Tau. Or Eldar, for that matter.

Uh, what? Plasma Guns are S7 AP*2*, not AP3. That means that Plasma negates FNP due to AP2. AFAIK, Plasma is the most effective anti-MEQ weapon out there, and it just became more useful again. Yay!


Anyhow, I don't think I want to discuss your proposal any more. It's just too depressing to think about.

I think the Veil of Sorrow might be reasonable, IF it was limited to one round only. It doesn't completely negate a shooty army, but does give you a chance to move a little closer to effective range before their able to completely open up.

dancingcricket:

I've started a thread where we can discuss the Veil of Sorrows proposal.

JohnHwangDD:

I believe my comment was what is commonly called a "joke". Perhaps your personal animosity is what made it fall flat. Please let me address it seriously: I proposed a rule you don't like, though I get the sense that your judgment is slightly clouded by your dislike of me. If I were a professional game designer, you would have gotten the finished product, not the proposed product, and I think it's rather unfair to demand that all proposals made on this forum be finished products. The point is to submit ideas for constructive criticism, something you appear to confuse with personal invective.

Thank you, though, for excusing yourself from the discussion, as you seem to have let it get far too personal for your fragile emotional state. Godspeed.

Wow Nurgy. You out-walled the Wall. I'm impressed.

I've never seen DD quit the field. His Modus Operandi is to wear his opponents out by repeating the same nonsense over and over again until all opposition collapses from exhaustion.

Sure, I may have fallen on his side of the coin in this specific argument, but still, have to respect someone who can make John give up. That's amazing.

With any luck Nurgy he'll put you on his ignore list, and he'll tell you that he's done it, that way you can say whatever you want and he has to choose to read it.

Wonderfully childish, but wonderfully fun.

I'll head over to the other thread now.

BYE

Nurglitch wrote:I believe my comment was what is commonly called a "joke".

Perhaps your personal animosity is what made it fall flat. Please let me address it seriously: I proposed a rule you don't like, though I get the sense that your judgment is slightly clouded by your dislike of me.

If I were a professional game designer, you would have gotten the finished product, not the proposed product, and I think it's rather unfair to demand that all proposals made on this forum be finished products. The point is to submit ideas for constructive criticism, something you appear to confuse with personal invective.

Thank you, though, for excusing yourself from the discussion, as you seem to have let it get far too personal for your fragile emotional state. Godspeed.

So your entire "contribution" to this thread has been a joke? OK, bravo.

Actually, in general, I *like* you. I harbor no ill will toward you. Indeed, usually, you make good sense. However, in this case, you have fallen woefully short. You proposed an incredibly stupid rule, and I dislike any form of stupidity, so naturally, I don't like that rule. But the idea that I dislike you on any personal level is strongly misstaken. I just happen to think you've proposed one of the stupidest rules that I've ever seen on any forum since I've been playing 40k. And it boggles my mind that you don't understand just how unbelievably stupid the proposed rule is.

If you were a professional game designer, and I were giving feedback as part of the professional testing pool, you would take not that the proposed rule isn't fluffy, isn't fun, and isn't clear. You'd then do the professional thing and can it in favor of something that was easier and simpler and more flavorful, rather than insisting that your abyssmally terrible rule was OK. Because, let's face it, even professionals screw up once in a while. But true professionals know constructive criticism isn't always positive. Particularly when you move off rah-rah sites like WarSeer. If you're not willing to acknowledge that you proposed a turd, then no amount of polishing is going make it anything else. Basically, you're doing what the naysayers claim GW does: make a bad rule, and ignore any feedback or evidence that the rule is bad.

Anyhow, I quit the discussion because I didn't have anything further to say about the rule, not because I was mad at you. You weren't interested in making the rule playable or fair, so there really wasn't anything else to say.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Anyhow, I quit the discussion because I didn't have anything further to say about the rule

Yup. You sure quit this discussion.



Stil, Nurgy, no joke - very impressed with you getting DD to turn away. Never seen anyone do that.

BYE

I concur with DD's simplified Necron rules. I'd also probably make all Gauss weapons Rending. 5th edition has really nerfed the ability of Guass weapons to do much of anything to vehicles, anymore. Rending would help fix this problem.

My two cents:

Either give the Gauss' rending (per Por'007's suggestion), or give them a new units that can do the AV 12s that are not the destroyers and heavy destroyers (an option I like more [more options = more fun], though I don't know how they'd work in the fluff ).

Do models that were lain down awaiting their WBB count towards the phase out number? Do models on their side from shooting get to strike in the close combat? WBB had a pretty strong down side to provide MEQ's with what was basically a second ward save without the attendant price hike. The minor differences between FNP and WBB alone should be good for a 1-2 points per model increase.

The monolith needs to be toned down a bit as well with the changes to vehicle damage tables, AP1 etc. AV14 all around is ok. Living Metal is OK. AV 14 Living Metal is a wee bit too defensible. AV 13 Living Metal seems reasonable. Now the Krak missile crowd can drestroy the thing on a lucky pair of rolls, and it will still have its defense against the nastier side of armor pen i.e. Melta, TMC's etc.