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Heard the rumor, thought it was a joke. Evidently not.

Brownshirt time?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt2yGzHfy7s

and a more humorous version (only decent scenes in the last three star wars movies)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdF5TQIv1fU&feature=related

one word, context

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Df2p6867_pw

Obama wrote:We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.

Isn't that what the National Guard is supposed to be? I'll admit, they could be better funded, but I think my point still stands.

Yea, he's talking about the State Department and the CIA, both of which are most definitely civilians agencies.

As I said thats scary. I don't want some internal better sounding name for a US KGB.

There already is a US KGB, its called Homeland Security, and its really only accountable to the Executive branch. Vesting authority back into the CIA, and the State Department, will decentralize the security process. Meaning it will be far less like the KGB, and more like the US was before Bush.

What about the FBI, the BTF and the Secret Service. They are all civilian organisations. So is the NSA I believe.

So, basically, what we're saying is either A)Obama has no idea what he's talking about or B)believes we have no idea what he's talking about and won't call him on it.

The NSA was a civilian agency, until it was pulled under the military umbrella by homeland security.

The FBI is a civilian agency, and nominally serves to keep the CIA out of the domestic arena. However, it's domestic security role has been eclipsed by, again, Homeland Security.

By BTF do you mean Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms? If so, they're acronym is nominally ATF. Either way, they don't do much at all. Their annual budget is only about $1 billion. Though yes, they are civilian.

I think it's just the usual kind of rubbish that politicians are obliged to spout in order to get elected.

Platuan4th wrote:So, basically, what we're saying is either A)Obama has no idea what he's talking about or B)believes we have no idea what he's talking about and won't call him on it.

Well, I haven't actually said anything about this. But if I had, I would have said:

Obama realizes that the vast majority of the American people don't really understand how the security process is meant to work. Most people think its designed to prevent 9/11's in an immediate sense. When, in reality, it is designed to allow the US to position itself so that there is no desire to perpetrate those kinds of attacks.

You're obfiscating:
1) the budgets are massively less
2) why do we need a new entity if already have those

As an aside, comparing the CIA to the KGB is unique. Last I saw gthe CIA never had its own internal army.

Frazzled wrote:You're obfiscating:
1) the budgets are massively less
2) why do we need a new entity if already have those

As an aside, comparing the CIA to the KGB is unique. Last I saw gthe CIA never had its own internal army.

1) Not really. Homeland Security has access to the entire military budget as appropriated by Congress. They're part of the Pentagon.

2) He isn't talking about a new entity. He's talking, primarily, about the State Department. Obama has repeatedly stated his desire to increase their budget significantly.

I didn't compare the CIA to KGB. I compared Homeland Security to the KGB.

Only you would compare Homeland Security to the KGB. Fascinating...

Actually, visiting the USA nowadays is a bit like when I visited the Soviet Union in 1979.

Both border controls consist of grim-faced men with guns who look at you with suspicion, as if they are just itching to grab you off for interrogation.

It's just more high-tech these days.

That's the result of 9/11 and the Patriot Act and so on. It wasn't like it when I visited in the mid-90s.

Well, it isn't a perfect comparison. Homeland Security has the good sense, and lacks the political cover, not to go around arresting people McCarthy/Gulag style. However, structurally, they bear a great deal of resemblance to the KGB. Primarily in that each organization was/is overseen by a military chain of command, and held/holds authority over the armed services.

Sounds more like a US version of the TA to me from what he's saying. That's scary right? Regular weekend warriors. That's about as scary as a basket full of kittens.

Of course that depends on the kittens...

more like...

The Kat Fu is strong young Padiwon:

Wouldn't that be the FSB vice KGB for internal security? The KGB had a more clandestine international role like our CIA.

BHO is talking about an entirely new org to provide a umbrella role for all internal security matters (which HS was created to do already.) Shades of the Gestapo....when folks start disappearing in the night then we will know we are well and truely hosed.

Ace_of_Spades wrote:Wouldn't that be the FSB vice KGB for internal security? The KGB had a more clandestine international role like our CIA.

The KGB used to be (in theory) the border guards and police.

Ace_of_Spades wrote:
BHO is talking about an entirely new org to provide a umbrella role for all internal security matters (which HS was created to do already.) Shades of the Gestapo....when folks start disappearing in the night then we will know we are well and truely hosed.

You are supposed to have loads of guns in order to stop that happening.

I shouldn't joke, this kind of thing has happened in far too many countries since WW2, and it is probably still going on.

Correct on both counts Killkrazy. The KGB had its own special troops to quell insurrection and maintain the internal passport system within the USSR. Later they just stole everything and got stinking rich... but thats another topic.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Ace_of_Spades wrote:Wouldn't that be the FSB vice KGB for internal security? The KGB had a more clandestine international role like our CIA.

The KGB used to be (in theory) the border guards and police.

Ace_of_Spades wrote:
BHO is talking about an entirely new org to provide a umbrella role for all internal security matters (which HS was created to do already.) Shades of the Gestapo....when folks start disappearing in the night then we will know we are well and truely hosed.

You are supposed to have loads of guns in order to stop that happening.

I shouldn't joke, this kind of thing has happened in far too many countries since WW2, and it is probably still going on.

You know that isn't a far reach with the guns part of your statement. This country will be divided no matter who wins the White House.

If this new "police/security org" gets established the reaction from folks will be less than stellar. But the thought of such things happening in my own country are too disgusting to think about. It would mean that everything I've done in my adult life will be for not.

Frazzled wrote:As I said thats scary. I don't want some internal better sounding name for a US KGB.

How we just rejigger the HSA TSA's anti-terrorism mandate to expand warrantless surveillance and then add additional investigative activities:

Security Terrorism Authority - Surveillance & Investigations

STA - SI has a nice ring to it. I could see that in the US.

You're attempt at humor John is a bit too close to reality? Don't forget, after an exhaustive investigation their field uniform willl be black pants and brown shirts, so as to give off an air of harmlessness...

Nah, this is *America*. HSA is protecting us from Terrorism. I support our Troops.

To be honest, I don't think the STA-SI will need to wear brown shirts. I think they'll be plainclothes and unobtrusive, just blending into the background. If HSA does it right, the STA-SI operative could be your next-door neighbor, and you'd never know unless you did something un-American...

I'm still completely lost as to where anyone sees a call for the formation of a STASI/Gestapo/KGB type secret police force. Especially in light of HSA.

Frazzled wrote:Only you would compare Homeland Security to the KGB. Fascinating...

He's not the only one, buddy.

Kilkrazy wrote:Actually, visiting the USA nowadays is a bit like when I visited the Soviet Union in 1979.

Both border controls consist of grim-faced men with guns who look at you with suspicion, as if they are just itching to grab you off for interrogation.

It's just more high-tech these days.

That's the result of 9/11 and the Patriot Act and so on. It wasn't like it when I visited in the mid-90s.

Try coming over from Mexico, it's a hike, but you won't see a soul, except for your Coyote.

Frazzled wrote:You're attempt at humor John is a bit too close to reality? Don't forget, after an exhaustive investigation their field uniform willl be black pants and brown shirts, so as to give off an air of harmlessness...

Even Hitler learned to mistrust that uniform. /godwin