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bananathug wrote:
I think the custodes codex is even a further kick in the sensitive bits as their strats are awesome and would make so much sense with vanilla marines.

I really feel like our codex (and GK for that matter) were rough drafts. Or *tinfoil hat* GW wanted to get the masses of SM players back so teased us with the first dex hoping we'd get hooked again and then have to buy a "good" army once we realized how fethed we are...

I don't see custodes as being an army that stands on their own, but they will give some very nice editions to other imperial armies. Mostly guard at first glance, but Marines will have some interesting things too I believe.

Hey, I'm thinking of using Scouts as troop options in my Ultramarines army. I'm thinking of running a 5-man team with Boltguns and a Heavy Bolter in my 500 point army. Is that a good loadout? I figure I'd take advantage of the strategem even in lower point games. Could make a difference.

bananathug wrote:
Rumor has it @ 80 points per bike naked. My guess is kitted around 110 points. Kind of expensive for a distraction because they need the detachment custodes rule (+1 to invlun right?) so you're committing at least 1/4 of a 2k point army to the detachment and I think those 500 points would be better spent on guard to patch our weaknesses.

I would love a way to fit a squad or two of custodes (I love gold and lions) into my army but I may just settle for collecting and painting them for now..

Current rumors have the bikes with Hurricane Bolters around 90 and with Missle at 105-110. I really like the Hurricane Bolter option if it is 90-ish a pop. Minimum unit size on the bikes will be key - if it's 1 or 2 a detachment is very doable, but if it's minimum three then it starts to get really pricey.

I think there are a lot of Marine lists that could make great use of the jetbikes.

With the new CA point increases on guilliman and asscannon razorbacks, are they still work taking?

As far as a tourney scene goes, like LVO or what not, other than the Rowboat gunline are there any other viable list fo SM? Curious for players who have seen any changes in the win/loss since the CA came out.

Rowboat + Tiggarius and Fire Raptors(storm ravens) seems to be the new hotness (a few scouts to screen).

ITC champion missions punishes Gman + AssBacks a lot (gives up sooooo many points) and dark reapers spam destroys that list like nobody's business.

LVO is this weekend but in a couple tournies so far this year FireBoats (RowPtors? Tig Boats? TiGulaTors???) has proven quite formidable.

Comp list checklist:
Can it survive a 30 dark reaper alpha?
Bloodletter/berserker/scion bomb proof?
Kill Morty+Mag?
Can it deal with IG out of LOS artillery/tank spam?
Horde control? (?100 t3-4 5-6+ Ws in 3 turns?)
(anything I'm missing?)

Nids have several options but seem to be variations on the above themes (out of LOS/genestealer bomb/dakka fexes/flyrants) but if you can answer yes to the above then your list is ready for tournament play.

And honestly, we cannot do that right now. Dark reaper or Leman Russ spam is what worries me the most because it’s so hard to prevent.

I’m hoping that the March re-balancing FAQs are substantial in some way, because outlier units like that are messing up the game. The signs are good, as several earlier outliers have been nerf-batted.

The annoying thing is I’m trying to get ready for a couple of big tournaments in May (the London GT and UKGT finals) with no idea what the rules or the meta will be. This is actually quite fun in a way, but makes me a bit nervous too. Plan is to just to play a few practice games for now and then Really put the effort in after we see the FAQs.

I'm leaning towards the Sternguard Lias strike I've been testing around myself. Storm Bolters on everyone is pretty clutch in testing. I'd rather use Command Squads but they don't get Grav Cannons. Gotta take what I can get I suppose.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm leaning towards the Sternguard Lias strike I've been testing around myself. Storm Bolters on everyone is pretty clutch in testing. I'd rather use Command Squads but they don't get Grav Cannons. Gotta take what I can get I suppose.

Yep, and you can likely use multi meltas on devs for anti tank work since you end up in so close. Dunno how to easily get a lieutenant into the mix though

I'm pretty sure people are finding a Lias sternguard/devastator bomb is a dreadful glass cannon. Against IG you'll get to storm bolter some conscripts and then be hosed by battlecannon fire.

If you want guys who can deep strike and shoot storm bolters at stuff, take GK strike squads. You can even use the psybolt ammo stratagem to make them fire 40 heavy bolter shots - which is genuinely pretty good. And you don't have to bring any kind of special character along to do it. They are 1ppm more than sternguard with storm bolters, but they can all have a pair of Nemesis Falchions and they can cast psychic powers so that seems kind of fair on the whole.

GKs aren't good as an army but you can cherry-pick good units from their list and get a lot done.

Mandragola wrote:
I'm pretty sure people are finding a Lias sternguard/devastator bomb is a dreadful glass cannon. Against IG you'll get to storm bolter some conscripts and then be hosed by battlecannon fire.

If you want guys who can deep strike and shoot storm bolters at stuff, take GK strike squads. You can even use the psybolt ammo stratagem to make them fire 40 heavy bolter shots - which is genuinely pretty good. And you don't have to bring any kind of special character along to do it. They are 1ppm more than sternguard with storm bolters, but they can all have a pair of Nemesis Falchions and they can cast psychic powers so that seems kind of fair on the whole.

GKs aren't good as an army but you can cherry-pick good units from their list and get a lot done.

Horrible glass cannon describes space marines as an army, yes

Mandragola wrote:
I'm pretty sure people are finding a Lias sternguard/devastator bomb is a dreadful glass cannon. Against IG you'll get to storm bolter some conscripts and then be hosed by battlecannon fire.

If you want guys who can deep strike and shoot storm bolters at stuff, take GK strike squads. You can even use the psybolt ammo stratagem to make them fire 40 heavy bolter shots - which is genuinely pretty good. And you don't have to bring any kind of special character along to do it. They are 1ppm more than sternguard with storm bolters, but they can all have a pair of Nemesis Falchions and they can cast psychic powers so that seems kind of fair on the whole.

GKs aren't good as an army but you can cherry-pick good units from their list and get a lot done.

It's about the Grav Cannons too. Unfortunately we need a lot of things done at once to have a fighting chance. Sternguard get 2 Heavy Weapons (And Grav Cannons are pretty good), and then Storm Bolters on everything else. You just have to get enough wounds on your target so that, if they degrade, their BS value declines.

It works...okay. Devastators bring a lot more heavy weapons but they die like chumps, even when the individual costs 5 points less than a Sternguard. I'd rather get the potential extra attack and a Storm Bolter at that point. I'm still messing with configurations though mathematically. You can never be too safe.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
I'm pretty sure people are finding a Lias sternguard/devastator bomb is a dreadful glass cannon. Against IG you'll get to storm bolter some conscripts and then be hosed by battlecannon fire.

If you want guys who can deep strike and shoot storm bolters at stuff, take GK strike squads. You can even use the psybolt ammo stratagem to make them fire 40 heavy bolter shots - which is genuinely pretty good. And you don't have to bring any kind of special character along to do it. They are 1ppm more than sternguard with storm bolters, but they can all have a pair of Nemesis Falchions and they can cast psychic powers so that seems kind of fair on the whole.

GKs aren't good as an army but you can cherry-pick good units from their list and get a lot done.

It's about the Grav Cannons too. Unfortunately we need a lot of things done at once to have a fighting chance. Sternguard get 2 Heavy Weapons (And Grav Cannons are pretty good), and then Storm Bolters on everything else. You just have to get enough wounds on your target so that, if they degrade, their BS value declines.

It works...okay. Devastators bring a lot more heavy weapons but they die like chumps, even when the individual costs 5 points less than a Sternguard. I'd rather get the potential extra attack and a Storm Bolter at that point. I'm still messing with configurations though mathematically. You can never be too safe.

Cool. I haven't tried it myself - I play Crimson Fists and mostly use Primaris stuff. But some people have used it and their reports are in this thread a few pages back.

The point is, Lias lets you deep strike. That's quite nice, but actually loads of stuff can deep strike. Loads of other stuff can just shoot lascannons from across the board without needing to deep strike.

The fundamental problem is that you are putting expensive models that aren't very tough close to the enemy. It's as bad an idea as it sounds. Sure, your alpha strike is pretty strong, but it's not amazing. If you were getting some kind of awesome first strike that conquered all opposition, then you could make a case for it, but that just isn't the case. Stuff is going to survive and it's going to kill you.

If you've got ravenguard CTs then you've got access to aggressors using SFtS. That is serious firepower. And you also have access to assault hellblasters, who can stay 24" away and pew pew from cover - where they are very difficult to get rid of. This approach just works far better than deep strike.

I'm considering Aggressors once I find suitable models for them. I don't like the aquila on the chest and that silly thing hanging from the crotch. My army being built is all Mk2-5.

So now the codex has been out for a while which is the best all rounder chaoter tactic? Is there one which doesn't force you to build a particular way?
Also for a biker captain with TH/SS shield eternal or the armour indomitus?

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
So now the codex has been out for a while which is the best all rounder chaoter tactic? Is there one which doesn't force you to build a particular way?
Also for a biker captain with TH/SS shield eternal or the armour indomitus?

Raven Guard is the best all around, as only SUPER pure melee armies counter it. Even then, the Strategem for them is a good all-rounder.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
So now the codex has been out for a while which is the best all rounder chaoter tactic? Is there one which doesn't force you to build a particular way?
Also for a biker captain with TH/SS shield eternal or the armour indomitus?

Raven Guard is the best all around, as only SUPER pure melee armies counter it. Even then, the Strategem for them is a good all-rounder.

Thanks il try raven guard then. Raven guard does work OK with a mixed drop pod/bike/gun line style of list correct?

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
So now the codex has been out for a while which is the best all rounder chaoter tactic? Is there one which doesn't force you to build a particular way?
Also for a biker captain with TH/SS shield eternal or the armour indomitus?

Raven Guard is the best all around, as only SUPER pure melee armies counter it. Even then, the Strategem for them is a good all-rounder.

Thanks il try raven guard then. Raven guard does work OK with a mixed drop pod/bike/gun line style of list correct?

Ravenguard CTs work well for a gunline. They don't really do much for people coming out of pods, because you'll tend to be close to the enemy.

That said, drop pods are kind of terrible in 8th. Pay about a hundred points to give a unit an ability that loads of other units can already do for free. This kind of goes double for ravenguard, who can use strike from the shadows to deploy outside their deployment zones.

Depending on how your gunline is put together there are other CTs that could potentially be better. Dark angels get to reroll 1s to hit if they don't move. Fists ignore cover. Salamanders give you a reroll to hit and wound for each unit, which is great for things like dreads and tactical squads with heavy weapons.

Care to share your list? That might help.

Yeah the list im toying around with is
Captain on Bike Thunder Hammer Storm Shield
Librarian
10 tacticals multi melta melta gun combo melta drop pod
5 tacricals flamer combi flamer twin las cannon razor back
5 sniper scouts
9 tacticals multi melts drop pod (librarian goes here)

5 Bikers 2 nelta guns
Attack bike with multi melts

2 x 5 Devastator's with 4 Missile Launchers
That is the planned core of my list
Rest of it will alternate between
5 cataohracti Terminators
5 stern guard
Venerable dreadnought with twin las/assault cannon/ plasma cannon
Contemotor dreadnought
Tri las predator
Other HQs i have are
Captain in terminator armour (from the start collecting box)
Captain with Combi Grab power sword
Chaplin (the plastic space marine heroes one)
A librarian on bike.

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
I'm pretty sure people are finding a Lias sternguard/devastator bomb is a dreadful glass cannon. Against IG you'll get to storm bolter some conscripts and then be hosed by battlecannon fire.

If you want guys who can deep strike and shoot storm bolters at stuff, take GK strike squads. You can even use the psybolt ammo stratagem to make them fire 40 heavy bolter shots - which is genuinely pretty good. And you don't have to bring any kind of special character along to do it. They are 1ppm more than sternguard with storm bolters, but they can all have a pair of Nemesis Falchions and they can cast psychic powers so that seems kind of fair on the whole.

GKs aren't good as an army but you can cherry-pick good units from their list and get a lot done.

It's about the Grav Cannons too. Unfortunately we need a lot of things done at once to have a fighting chance. Sternguard get 2 Heavy Weapons (And Grav Cannons are pretty good), and then Storm Bolters on everything else. You just have to get enough wounds on your target so that, if they degrade, their BS value declines.

It works...okay. Devastators bring a lot more heavy weapons but they die like chumps, even when the individual costs 5 points less than a Sternguard. I'd rather get the potential extra attack and a Storm Bolter at that point. I'm still messing with configurations though mathematically. You can never be too safe.

Cool. I haven't tried it myself - I play Crimson Fists and mostly use Primaris stuff. But some people have used it and their reports are in this thread a few pages back.

The point is, Lias lets you deep strike. That's quite nice, but actually loads of stuff can deep strike. Loads of other stuff can just shoot lascannons from across the board without needing to deep strike.

The fundamental problem is that you are putting expensive models that aren't very tough close to the enemy. It's as bad an idea as it sounds. Sure, your alpha strike is pretty strong, but it's not amazing. If you were getting some kind of awesome first strike that conquered all opposition, then you could make a case for it, but that just isn't the case. Stuff is going to survive and it's going to kill you.

If you've got ravenguard CTs then you've got access to aggressors using SFtS. That is serious firepower. And you also have access to assault hellblasters, who can stay 24" away and pew pew from cover - where they are very difficult to get rid of. This approach just works far better than deep strike.

agressors and hellblasters only work if you go first

So seriously, is there a good alternative model to Aggressors or should I suck it up and chop up the models as needed?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So seriously, is there a good alternative model to Aggressors or should I suck it up and chop up the models as needed?

Probably not. outside of some serious kit bashing. or use terminators with some hefty anti infantry dakka.

So, we all know that plasma pistols vanguard veterans are good, but how do you play your VV for hand to hand combat ? I have been pretty disapointed by my them in assault in 8th :/
They killed half a boyz squad then took heavy casualties. In an other game, they killed a full 30 hormagaunts squad on 2 turn, but took 9 casualties (and each time they assaulted). And it is not so easy to get them there !

I'm toying with a mixture of dual lightning claws, dual chainswords, and storm shield and chainsword. Sacrifice their ability to shoot entirely (except for grenades) to maximize their attack output in CC. I haven't run them yet, but I'm thinking of using SftS on a unit 5, equipped with 1 twin chainsword, 1 chainsword and shield, and 3 twin lightning claws (including on the sgt.) 7 chainsword attacks and 10 lightning claws, ideally buffed by a chaplain to reroll misses. 131 points without any characters, 223 with a jump pack chaplain with a storm bolter.

I know that I've seen other people suggest using thunder hammers, too.

Mandragola wrote:


The point is, Lias lets you deep strike. That's quite nice, but actually loads of stuff can deep strike. Loads of other stuff can just shoot lascannons from across the board without needing to deep strike.

The fundamental problem is that you are putting expensive models that aren't very tough close to the enemy. It's as bad an idea as it sounds. Sure, your alpha strike is pretty strong, but it's not amazing. If you were getting some kind of awesome first strike that conquered all opposition, then you could make a case for it, but that just isn't the case. Stuff is going to survive and it's going to kill you.

Hi, just on this, I've run Lias since his rules dropped (and before that in 7th edition). Up to now I've run it as sternguard and devs that drop in close. I'm starting to move away from that now though as a lot of armies can handle it and as you say, after the drop they are fragile marines.

I am going to try the drop as pure Devs, most of the time dropping more then 12 away. Basically using the deep strike as a way of getting them into a 2nd fire-base outside of the deployment zone. So for example my 2k list looks like this currently.

Raptors Spearhead Detachment

Lias (Fearless Bubble Warlord Trait)

10 Devs (Cherub, 4 Grav-Cannons)
10 Devs (Cherub, 4 Multi Meltas)
10 Devs (Cherub, 3 Multi Meltas, 1 Missile Launcher)


Battalion Detachment

Captain (Power Maul)
Lieutenant (Teeth of Terra)

Company Ancient (Standard of the Emperor Ascendant)

5 Scouts
5 Scouts
5 Scouts

10 Devs (Cherub, 4 Heavy Bolters)
10 Devs (Cherub, 4 Lascannons)

Battalion Detachment:

Primaris Psyker
Primaris Psyker

Culexus Assassin

Guard Infantry Squad
Guard Infantry Squad
Guard Infantry Squad

It is not as deadly as previous versions, but I think the trade off is worth it.

That seems like quite a decent list. Essentially you’re using Lias to stop your devs from being shot, and to get to within 24” of a target. That’s good because it’s both safer and harder to bubble wrap against.

I don’t love the IG battalion to be honest, but it’s a pretty good way of getting cheap CPs. It looks to me like you have an awful lot of stuff that you’re just taking as bubble wrap (all the scouts and guard infantry) and I’d prefer to just take things to kill the enemy, rather than to just inconvenience him. That said, you do have 20 guys with assorted heavy weapons to kill them with.

The main thing I'm not a fan of in the list is the Multi-Meltas. I don't feel they give the biggest bang for the buck.

The imperium soup detachment came about from playing the Raptors list.

I used to run it as pure space marines, then I found the deep striking element was smite fodder due to proximity. So I included the culexus.

I then found that the list was becoming two fire bases clumped around support characters, which left areas of the board including large swathes of my backfield bare. I used to run min tactical squads with a heavy weapon in the backfield, but obviously the guard do it cheaper.

The primaris psykers add some cheap psychic defense/offense.

I've found the scouts in this list are used to area deny the middle of the board. A lot of lists have things that can potentially deploy before your deep strikers and cover the board, which obviously poses a problem when you have 31 marines deep striking. The scouts largely counter that issue and you just have to be careful about other scouts/nurglings. Plus they add some ability to take objectives early on if they have nothing to screen.

I think between the backfield elements (devs/guard) and mid field (scouts/deep strikers) the list has a lot of board control early on.

The Mutli Meltas is because I own the models! I don't think they are bad though. A lot of stuff is t7 and the higher AP can be useful. If anything does get within 12, the melta rule is scary. Mainly it is because I own the models!

Hope that helps anyone thinking about using a Raptors list with Lias. I could be off base, but my experiences thus far have led to this list (which could always change again!)

Cool ok. I guess you do need objective campers, and getting the cheap IG guys isn’t a bad way to do it.

It’s an interesting list, and well done for getting it to work. I do think that devastators are a better way to use Lias than Sternguard. Glad you’re getting some use out of him.

Personally, I continue to think that he’s not really as amazing as a lot of the hype around him suggests. Like I’d just have more lascannon devastators somewhere safer rather than deep strike more expensive multi-melta ones.

It isn't hard to kill Marines though. You might as well try and strike as hard as you can. That's why I'm opting for Grav Cannons, for example, and getting close.

 godardc wrote:
So, we all know that plasma pistols vanguard veterans are good, but how do you play your VV for hand to hand combat ? I have been pretty disapointed by my them in assault in 8th :/
They killed half a boyz squad then took heavy casualties. In an other game, they killed a full 30 hormagaunts squad on 2 turn, but took 9 casualties (and each time they assaulted). And it is not so easy to get them there !

I’ve had good success with 3X powerfist (including the sergeant for the extra attack) and 2X chainsword and storm shield, supported by a chaplain (with powerfist) for rerolls to offset the fist penalty. The storm shield guys soak wounds for the fists, and the fist guys can threaten anything. The unit is a little over 130.

Lightning claws are kind of attractive, but ultimately they constrain you to targets with low toughness, low saves, single wounds. A powerfist might get fewer attacks, but with higher strength and AP and multiple wounds, more of those attacks get converted to damage on multi-wound models. And a fist is a bit cheaper than a pair of claws. Thunderhammers are overpriced on anything with fewer than 3 attacks.