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Lmao. Thats good. Bbbb!

So wait, A rhino with two combi bolters can move 10" and then shoot 8 shots at 24" extra? And with a 6 pt havoc launcher, I can have 8+d6 shots?

Do we Razorback now?

The side effect on this is that it makes the soulreaper cannon on the SOTs not so nice any more. Why pay 10 pts for the same amount of shots that you can have for 3 pts?

I think my list with 3x5 SOT and 2x 20 Rubrics is getting warmer.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
So wait, A rhino with two combi bolters can move 10" and then shoot 8 shots at 24" extra? And with a 6 pt havoc launcher, I can have 8+d6 shots?

Do we Razorback now?

The side effect on this is that it makes the soulreaper cannon on the SOTs not so nice any more. Why pay 10 pts for the same amount of shots that you can have for 3 pts?

I think my list with 3x5 SOT and 2x 20 Rubrics is getting warmer.

Well the soulreaper cannon is still going to get good value against tough 4 or 8 and anything with a 4+ armour or better and no invul. If that's worth 10 points really depends on your matchup. But since I play a lot of orcs and marines I'll still be uaing them.

Instead of using a Helbrute (at least for the moment), I'm thinking instead of using a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought with two c-beams and Death Hex, as I heard that this is a very solid, very powerful heavy weapons option that doesn't move all that much, which works great for what I intend. Does this sound like a good idea or not?

What do you guys think about a three Mutaliths list?
I'm not sure if the bonus to TZEENTCH unit from a Mutalith is stackable...if yes they can give a Tzaangor unit -3 AP plus all the other bonus....
I tried the mutalith a couple of times and if the opponent is to able to finish her the 18" mortal wound wave is something really incredible, if by chance a couple of them can survive double mortal wound is really nasty.

I'm corius about hearing some opinions on them

Is not stackable unless spesifically stated.
That said, the damage results can overlap at least.

Greetings everyone. Long time lurker, first time poster . Looking for advice on my list. I love the chaos members on this forum. I got into 40k on the tail end of 7th edition. Started out with World Eaters and Emperor’s Children. Got a lot of Death Guard as gifts, now they are my largest army. I am now working on a 1ksons list (finally will have a full chaos undivided collection). I am still new to the game and still making mistakes. I rarely win. I want to make sure my list at least is not killing my chances at victory. I am looking to go to the local LGS and be competitive. I currently play with friends, they have Orks, Admech/Knight/IG soup and Dark Angels. I have a grudge vs the Knight player because I have yet to beat him. LGS meta has everything. I prefer TAC lists. I do not have unlimited funds, but any advice on what to buy next is also appreciated. Points left over on purpose to adjust. Thanks in advance.

Question. Is MSU for cultist screen better for 1ksons?

Well, I'd say you've gone way too deep into cultists there. If you come up against a list that can rinse them out, then the more you have, the worse it is. With bolter discipline, and the cultist points increase, combined with the native lack of Tide of Traitors strat for Thousand Sons, I'd say they're now the worst of our three troops choices. I still think a squad of ten is worthwhile, just to sit on objectives (and mayyybe a bit blob of 40). With bolter discipline, however, rubrics are threatening to pip them to even the camping post: 8 -2 shots from camping rubrics is a really nice buff to them.

But your'e really missing out on Tzaangors. I'd buy three boxes straight off the bat, most importantly. If you can get your hands on a contemptor, and two guns to convert to butcher cannons, they provide top-class fire support and a cheeky leadership debuff. Your exalteds are a bit under par, but one can be made pretty good by sticking him on a disc, giving him two power swords, and the seers bane relic. Guy can do damage, if you're set on fielding one. A weird suggestion, and it can't be TS, but I really rate the Kytan now, with TS support. He can reliably get a t1 charge, loves all the buffs/debuffs we bring, and makes great use of the daemonforge strat - he'd be a straight replacement for the defiler (nothing against the defiler).

Finally, TSs soup really well, so you can experiment with DG and TS, or Daemons and TS.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Instead of using a Helbrute (at least for the moment), I'm thinking instead of using a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought with two c-beams and Death Hex, as I heard that this is a very solid, very powerful heavy weapons option that doesn't move all that much, which works great for what I intend. Does this sound like a good idea or not?

C beam is a decent weapon but double butcher cannon is more versatile, the fact you cant move in a dynamic game as wh40k often is a problem, many aggressive lists close distance early and ur weapon degrade quickly as well, table is not infinite, you will be surprised by the speed some armies have 2nd turn and you have 3/4 of enemy army in your deploy

I recently caught the Thousand sons bug and bought the Ahriman model. So, what spells do you guys usually bring on him? Do you bring one miscellaneous and two attack spells ? Or two miscellanous and one attack spell?

Given that he casts three. I am now leaning towards two attack spells and one miscellaneous because there will be times when we just need max damage and so, two attack spells and a smite is good for those times. But tell me what spells you usually put on Ahriman.

 blackmage wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Instead of using a Helbrute (at least for the moment), I'm thinking instead of using a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought with two c-beams and Death Hex, as I heard that this is a very solid, very powerful heavy weapons option that doesn't move all that much, which works great for what I intend. Does this sound like a good idea or not?

C beam is a decent weapon but double butcher cannon is more versatile, the fact you cant move in a dynamic game as wh40k often is a problem, many aggressive lists close distance early and ur weapon degrade quickly as well, table is not infinite, you will be surprised by the speed some armies have 2nd turn and you have 3/4 of enemy army in your deploy

I've heard that butcher cannons are really good; I just want have something that would be good for dealing with tanks and other heavy units. To make the Contemptor able to square off in melee, I was also thinking of adding chainfists to both hands. What about the soulburners, how good of a weapon are they? Also, one of the managers at my local GW recommended lascannons.

Thank you very much grouchoben for the advice. Good call on the blob of 40, we do not have Tide of Traitors. I think I will keep the exalteds, I want them to smite\debuff\buff. I will convert one as you have suggested to see how it does. My plan for this list is to Pyschic spam the Knights player to death with the cultists keeping the characters bubble wrapped. No idea how it would do VS Orks (I haven't played my Ork friend since the Codex dropped). Is the list TAC enough? Contemptor and Kytan sadly is out as its FW (my group does not like FW and I don't want to start an arms race). I do like the look of Tzaangors and I've seen that many on this thread use them, so I think I will pick some up and setup a Tzaangor bomb. Defiler is pretty much required as I got it as a gift from my group and want to use it to cleave some knights in half. Same with the knight, although I am going to magnetize so I can do whatever load out I want.

Questions. What knight load out is working for everyone? The advice I given was to not double avenger gatling cannon but to Thermal cannon\Reaper because of the prevalence of knights in the meta.

I tend to think TS answer knights with Death Hex not Thermal Cannons. And I wouldn't mix melee and shooting in either case. Vs. Knights thermal cannons and avenger cannons actually perform roughly the same; the -4 vs -2 doesn't matter due to the invulnerable save and the damage before saves is something like 5.2 for the AGC and 5.4 for the thermal before saves. Plus the thermal is waaay less consistent and way less useful against pretty much any other target. You could look at a stormspear on the head.
On the other hand, running a cheap no-frills melee knight isn't a bad option either. He's just as durable as other knights, but a good bit cheaper so if you're just gonna lose him turn 1 he's a better sacrifice.
I tend to run knights either 'all in' with a pair of armigers and as a character with the 6+ FNP warlord trait, dual avengers and a head mount, for a +3 CP detachment, or as a cheap no frills melee version in a single super heavy detachment.

drakerocket wrote:
I tend to think TS answer knights with Death Hex not Thermal Cannons. And I wouldn't mix melee and shooting in either case. Vs. Knights thermal cannons and avenger cannons actually perform roughly the same; the -4 vs -2 doesn't matter due to the invulnerable save and the damage before saves is something like 5.2 for the AGC and 5.4 for the thermal before saves. Plus the thermal is waaay less consistent and way less useful against pretty much any other target. You could look at a stormspear on the head.
On the other hand, running a cheap no-frills melee knight isn't a bad option either. He's just as durable as other knights, but a good bit cheaper so if you're just gonna lose him turn 1 he's a better sacrifice.
I tend to run knights either 'all in' with a pair of armigers and as a character with the 6+ FNP warlord trait, dual avengers and a head mount, for a +3 CP detachment, or as a cheap no frills melee version in a single super heavy detachment.

What's wrong with mixing melee weapons and ranged ones (granted, I know you're talking about knights, so I'm not sure if this advice would apply to my Contemptor)?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
I tend to think TS answer knights with Death Hex not Thermal Cannons. And I wouldn't mix melee and shooting in either case. Vs. Knights thermal cannons and avenger cannons actually perform roughly the same; the -4 vs -2 doesn't matter due to the invulnerable save and the damage before saves is something like 5.2 for the AGC and 5.4 for the thermal before saves. Plus the thermal is waaay less consistent and way less useful against pretty much any other target. You could look at a stormspear on the head.
On the other hand, running a cheap no-frills melee knight isn't a bad option either. He's just as durable as other knights, but a good bit cheaper so if you're just gonna lose him turn 1 he's a better sacrifice.
I tend to run knights either 'all in' with a pair of armigers and as a character with the 6+ FNP warlord trait, dual avengers and a head mount, for a +3 CP detachment, or as a cheap no frills melee version in a single super heavy detachment.

What's wrong with mixing melee weapons and ranged ones (granted, I know you're talking about knights, so I'm not sure if this advice would apply to my Contemptor)?

Because you're only half effective at any one time. You either want two mele weapons and to be in combat or two guns and be waaay back from the assaults.

Contemptors can do a bit of both but if you're charging one up the board you're hitting on 3+. So I run butcher cannons and twin heavy bolters and let mele units do the assaults.

 small_gods wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
I tend to think TS answer knights with Death Hex not Thermal Cannons. And I wouldn't mix melee and shooting in either case. Vs. Knights thermal cannons and avenger cannons actually perform roughly the same; the -4 vs -2 doesn't matter due to the invulnerable save and the damage before saves is something like 5.2 for the AGC and 5.4 for the thermal before saves. Plus the thermal is waaay less consistent and way less useful against pretty much any other target. You could look at a stormspear on the head.
On the other hand, running a cheap no-frills melee knight isn't a bad option either. He's just as durable as other knights, but a good bit cheaper so if you're just gonna lose him turn 1 he's a better sacrifice.
I tend to run knights either 'all in' with a pair of armigers and as a character with the 6+ FNP warlord trait, dual avengers and a head mount, for a +3 CP detachment, or as a cheap no frills melee version in a single super heavy detachment.

What's wrong with mixing melee weapons and ranged ones (granted, I know you're talking about knights, so I'm not sure if this advice would apply to my Contemptor)?

Because you're only half effective at any one time. You either want two mele weapons and to be in combat or two guns and be waaay back from the assaults.

Contemptors can do a bit of both but if you're charging one up the board you're hitting on 3+. So I run butcher cannons and twin heavy bolters and let mele units do the assaults.

Ok. I'm torn if I want to use a Maulerfiend or Helbrute for my melee unit.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
I tend to think TS answer knights with Death Hex not Thermal Cannons. And I wouldn't mix melee and shooting in either case. Vs. Knights thermal cannons and avenger cannons actually perform roughly the same; the -4 vs -2 doesn't matter due to the invulnerable save and the damage before saves is something like 5.2 for the AGC and 5.4 for the thermal before saves. Plus the thermal is waaay less consistent and way less useful against pretty much any other target. You could look at a stormspear on the head.
On the other hand, running a cheap no-frills melee knight isn't a bad option either. He's just as durable as other knights, but a good bit cheaper so if you're just gonna lose him turn 1 he's a better sacrifice.
I tend to run knights either 'all in' with a pair of armigers and as a character with the 6+ FNP warlord trait, dual avengers and a head mount, for a +3 CP detachment, or as a cheap no frills melee version in a single super heavy detachment.

What's wrong with mixing melee weapons and ranged ones (granted, I know you're talking about knights, so I'm not sure if this advice would apply to my Contemptor)?

Because you're only half effective at any one time. You either want two mele weapons and to be in combat or two guns and be waaay back from the assaults.

Contemptors can do a bit of both but if you're charging one up the board you're hitting on 3+. So I run butcher cannons and twin heavy bolters and let mele units do the assaults.

Ok. I'm torn if I want to use a Maulerfiend or Helbrute for my melee unit.

IMO if you have some command points for the hellforged stratergy, lasher tendril mauler wins hands down.

So I have started meddling with leaving summoning points in my lists. That's mostly because a lot of stuff have a nice point/PL overlap. For example, if you save aside 75 pts, you can bring 3 flamers, or 10 pinks or an exalted flamer, or if you roll well up to 20 brimstones. If you take it to 85 pts instead, 3 screamers are also on the menu.

For double that (150 pts) we can get double the utility. Imagine your cornered DP summoning 20 brimstones all around him. Suddenly he is untargettable due to character rule and unchargeable unless someone manages to kill 20 brimstone bodies first.

Or imagine dropping 6 flamers which can shoot on the spot due to being 12" range and incinerating a horde unit much better than the warpflamers would.

Main question: Can we only summon the daemon units that exist in the Thousand Sons codex (aka horrors, flamers and screamers) or can we bring all Tzeentch Daemons with the "Demonic ritual" rule from the Daemon codex, which includes exalted flamers, burning chariots, fluxmasters, changelings, blue scribes and even Daemon Princes?

The way the rule is stated in the book, it should be any daemons, but then I'm wondering why only the horrors, flamers and screamers exist in the codex. What say you?

Secondary question: What about upgrades? If I summon a pink horror unit, can they have a demonic icon as well if I pay the points?

As long as it has the Tzeentch keyword, you can summon it.

In regards to leaving points spare, I guess it depends on whether or not you think you’ll be hampered by not having those points on the table to begin with. For example, 90 points is another Tzaangor Shaman.

It could work well, though – especially alongside a Daemons battalion. Save the points to split some (not all) of a 30 Pink Horror unit, then you have the option to either split them or summon in ~150 points of something else.

Kdash wrote:
As long as it has the Tzeentch keyword, you can summon it.

In regards to leaving points spare, I guess it depends on whether or not you think you’ll be hampered by not having those points on the table to begin with. For example, 90 points is another Tzaangor Shaman.

It could work well, though – especially alongside a Daemons battalion. Save the points to split some (not all) of a 30 Pink Horror unit, then you have the option to either split them or summon in ~150 points of something else.

It's intended for use in a mono-faction , mono-subfaction tournament. Which means you can only bring Thousand Sons army and nothing else, or Kronos tyranids and nothing else etc. I thought summoning would be a way to break this restriction, and, since my characters will all be mobile (DPs with wings, Ahriman and exalted on discs) I will be able to move-advance T1 and deep summon a lot of stuff on T2. This will also give me the flexibility of only summoning according to the opposition.

The other reason is that I don't play tzaangors of any flavor. I already own a Beasts of Chaos army with ~300+ goats of different flavors and sizes, and GW pretty much rendered it almost obsolete. I won't be indulging them with more goat purchases. Therefore, my list is really streamlined. Ahriman on disc, 2 DP's with wings, exalted, maybe termi sorc, mandatory battalion troops. It leaves me with 700ish points, which I can use on things that are targets for AT weapons, SoTs that are targets for plasma weapons, or a buttload of daemons which are nobody's prime targets and can synergize well with the DP auras and spells (flickering flames etc).

I second tzaangors, they are also a great answer to any assassins. Had a guy drop 2 of the anti psycher assassins up front, the ones that turn your ws to 6+, they were devoured by my group of 19 tzaangors in cc t1. Yeah i had to use the strat to fight again but hitting on 6's, but reroll all failed hits gets enough hits to matter. Use a vortex beast to bump them up to str 5 so wounding on 3's, they do the job really well.

Azuza001 wrote:
I second tzaangors, they are also a great answer to any assassins. Had a guy drop 2 of the anti psycher assassins up front, the ones that turn your ws to 6+, they were devoured by my group of 19 tzaangors in cc t1. Yeah i had to use the strat to fight again but hitting on 6's, but reroll all failed hits gets enough hits to matter. Use a vortex beast to bump them up to str 5 so wounding on 3's, they do the job really well.

I could be mistaken, but the vortex beast power is not a psychic power at all and it is not an attack, which means it would pass a 2+ MW on the assassin with no questions asked and ignoring his protections.

You are not mistaken.
Its an ability, and the assassin has no defenses against it (other than the beam of unreality targeting the nearest enemy.

So I am slowly being convinced that the correct amount of reinforcement points is 150. Here's the things you can summon with 150 reinforcement points:

2 units of 3 flamers or one unit of 6 flamers
1 unit of 3 flamers and a changecaster
20 punk horrors or 2 units of 10
50 brimstones or 5 units of 10 or anything in between
Two exalted flamers, or an exalted flamer and 3 flamers
5 screamers
A burning chariot and 10 brimstone horrors
A Fateskimmer and 10 brimstone horrors
The blue scribes and 3 flamers, or the blue scribes and 10 punks or the blue scribes and an exalted flamer


In general, so much diversity.

Also proves that basically warpflamer rubrics are still bad. A warpflamer rubric costs 26 pts, cannot DMC and shoot and doesn't do anything in melee. A Flamer costs 25 pts, can get summoned and immediately shoot and can also shoot flames in hth.

Which devolves into the question: Are warpflamer rubrics really useful?

Sure, they can be used as deterrents in big blocks of rubrics so the opponent thinks twice before charging. For example, a 10 model rubric unit with 5 inferno bolters, 4 warpflamers and the sorcerer. Opponent will think twice before charging into that. But what if I didn't pay for those warpflamers at all? I would instead have a 6 man rubric unit with the same damage output in meaningful range. Plus my unit would be cheap enough that it wouldn't make sense for the opponent to go charge it anyways.

What I mean to say is, wtf is the role of warpflame rubrics? Maybe 5 strong with 4 flamers guarding a back objective? In cover and with all is Dust they would be pretty much indestructible from shooting and impossible to go into melee also, but then you're paying 130 pts for a backfield objective holder...

This post derailed pretty fast.

Warpflamer rubrics have a different roll. Want to see your opponent shoot everything they have at a rhino? Put 5 rubrics with 4 warpflamers in one and move it straight at them. Are they good? Not by themselves but a few of them in a large squad can act as a deterrent vs small things charging in.

Azuza001 wrote:
Warpflamer rubrics have a different roll. Want to see your opponent shoot everything they have at a rhino? Put 5 rubrics with 4 warpflamers in one and move it straight at them.

Might be a good way to "screen" Magnus if you're running him as well. The more shots that are fired at the Rhino turn 1, the more chance Magnus has to survive, get his psychic protections going, and get stuck in to melt faces.

Brian888 wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Warpflamer rubrics have a different roll. Want to see your opponent shoot everything they have at a rhino? Put 5 rubrics with 4 warpflamers in one and move it straight at them.

Might be a good way to "screen" Magnus if you're running him as well. The more shots that are fired at the Rhino turn 1, the more chance Magnus has to survive, get his psychic protections going, and get stuck in to melt faces.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

But Magnus really stretches up the points. Might need to kill one of the DP's.

Ahriman, DP, Magnus that's 791 pts

3 units of 5 rubrics, 2 with flamers, one with bolters + a rhino

A shaman + 6 enlightened with bows

Leaves about 340 pts. Enough for a Scarab unit + Termi Sorc maybe? Or two Defilers to make it even more scary?

Basic question for anyone who plays magnus: What's my chances that Magnus survives if my opponent takes 1st turn?

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Brian888 wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Warpflamer rubrics have a different roll. Want to see your opponent shoot everything they have at a rhino? Put 5 rubrics with 4 warpflamers in one and move it straight at them.

Might be a good way to "screen" Magnus if you're running him as well. The more shots that are fired at the Rhino turn 1, the more chance Magnus has to survive, get his psychic protections going, and get stuck in to melt faces.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

But Magnus really stretches up the points. Might need to kill one of the DP's.

Ahriman, DP, Magnus that's 791 pts

3 units of 5 rubrics, 2 with flamers, one with bolters + a rhino

A shaman + 6 enlightened with bows

Leaves about 340 pts. Enough for a Scarab unit + Termi Sorc maybe? Or two Defilers to make it even more scary?

Basic question for anyone who plays magnus: What's my chances that Magnus survives if my opponent takes 1st turn?

depend by opponent list, in 90% of cases it will not survive
Anyway i still need to see a skilled player fire on a rhino when Magnus is on the table, and no rubric with flamers aren't the real danger considering in many cases you will burn some screens and then next turn you will die, no one will be so dumb to shoot at rhino and let Magnus unleash his psy powers then wreak havoc between your lines

 blackmage wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Brian888 wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
Warpflamer rubrics have a different roll. Want to see your opponent shoot everything they have at a rhino? Put 5 rubrics with 4 warpflamers in one and move it straight at them.

Might be a good way to "screen" Magnus if you're running him as well. The more shots that are fired at the Rhino turn 1, the more chance Magnus has to survive, get his psychic protections going, and get stuck in to melt faces.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

But Magnus really stretches up the points. Might need to kill one of the DP's.

Ahriman, DP, Magnus that's 791 pts

3 units of 5 rubrics, 2 with flamers, one with bolters + a rhino

A shaman + 6 enlightened with bows

Leaves about 340 pts. Enough for a Scarab unit + Termi Sorc maybe? Or two Defilers to make it even more scary?

Basic question for anyone who plays magnus: What's my chances that Magnus survives if my opponent takes 1st turn?

depend by opponent list, in 90% of cases it will not survive
Anyway i still need to see a skilled player fire on a rhino when Magnus is on the table, and no rubric with flamers aren't the real danger considering in many cases you will burn some screens and then next turn you will die, no one will be so dumb to shoot at rhino and let Magnus unleash his psy powers then wreak havoc between your lines

Forgot to add. This is for a 1750, mono faction mono subtype tournament. Aka only kronos tyranids, or only alpha legion CSM and nothing else. Would that up Magnus' chances?