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Comissars - Tie Iron Discipline to them, or just make them cheaper.
Sanctioned Psykers - Always get Telepathic Order
Priests - No penalties for melee casualties

Commisars : 15ppm, max one per HQ and troops choice (ie, 3 to start with, but +1 for every additional HQ and Troop choice taken), may be assigned to any unit/squad, but may only leave a squad and join a new one when their initial squad is wiped out. May take whatever they want from the Armory. Iron Discipline and +1 Ld to the unit.

Sanctioned Psykers : 6ppm, buys their powers from a list (keep them cheap, think something like how Farseers and Warlocs work for the Eldar?), must have a Commissar accompany them at all times, if the accompanying Commissar dies, so does the psyker (exploding collar triggered by the Commissar or on their death?) to prevent any chance of a demon being released by the pysker. If there are any issues with the Psyker, the Commissar will bump them off before any negative affects occur (in case, say, there is a pysker unit with a special ability to take over the psyker, turn them into a DS becon, into demon, ect...).

Prists : 8ppm, may join any unit (see Commissar), makes a unit Fearless. None of that silly "aggitated" rules and the such, not all Priests are going to be insaniacs like the Redemptionists.

Main point is to allow people to place the assault useful advisors anywhere they want, not just in their command squads who are not always going to be an assault unit (I use mine as anti-tank snipers and Command Bubbles), as well as affordable. As they are now, they're more overpriced than Ogryns.

I think it depends on what you want advisors to be. How would they fit into an army? Do you want them to be more secondary ICs? Or just unit upgrades? If they're intended to stand their own 15pts is a bit low and would result in them being underpowered or underpriced. If they're unit upgrades, they have to include their cost plus the cost of their abilities. When I look at the advisors I seriously think for them to have any sort of ability to be worth your while they need to be in the 30-40pt range, irreguardless of what they're intended purpose.
My breakdown is this: Commisar should be part of squads, such that their presence is what makes the squad more powerful and where the squad becomes the delivery mechanism for him, he would allow IG to do more IC spam without neccesarily counting as IC; Priests with more mundane stats should buff the squad with various litanies to choose from that will make a unit fearless, or better at charging forward, or something, that the squad as a whole becomes more effective. Sanctioned Psykers will always lie in a difficult position, especially if they are overly cheap, they need abilities that make them worthwhile but from a fluff perspective can't really be put on the same level as a librarian. Sanctioned Psykers instead of gaining overtly offensive attacks I see them gaining abilities to again improve the units effectiveness but in a different way; such as allowing a unit to always set up turn one irregardless of mission rules, or premonitions in battle that tell him where they must shoot if they are to succeed (allow whole unit to re-roll all to hits), stuff like that rather than varying degrees of direct attacks.

Or they could just be 15pts for the extra Ld, attacks, and access to the armory... The commissar is already 40pts for a laspistol and CCW and those perks. Most people take one or two, sometimes three to boost their Command Squad Ld., though anytime I need to lose 40-200pts my Commissars are among the first to go, since they really don't do anything if I have two Heroic Senior Officer stats. I would look at Priests and Psykers with a shred of interest if they were worth it at all, but they aren't, Psyker's powers are random and none are very useful anyhow, and you have to be positioned just so if you are going to use any of them, and you may end up not getting the one you need! Priests are just over priced and a major detriment if you're not able to use them as assault troop, even then, not really worth it.

I think between commisar and priest there is a bit of overlap in function that needs to be dealt with.

The commisar is currently too expensive, he should be brought down in cost and given bolt pistol power sword as basic equipment. He is the most suited to be the assignable officer.

The priest should not have superior stats, his advantage is not in stats but in providing unit enhancing special rules, throw a couple in to choose from. Give him as standard the Evicerator(? Chainsword-flamer). Gives a unit furious charge and/or fearless.

The sanctioned psyker should get lightning arc or whatever its called as standard and then have one other ability that the player selects. Chaos, if anyone, should be the only army to do things randomly. Where the second ability is more pronounced and effects how the unit he's attached to functions (just as much as the priest); I think abilities to effect shooting would be best to differentiate him from the priest.

The advisors rule needs to go to make advisors work. I don't want a top heavy HQ squad so I can place the advisors where I want them to be. That, and they could stand a price adjustment.

-Psykers need to have slightly better powers. I'd prefer to see them as a support unit, like you find them in the fluff. More powers like the "extension of the officer's leadership bubble" would be cool - a duplication of wargear. Even if we assume the psyker's powers are rolled randomly, it could be something like this:

0- No power. (Put your force weapon on this lad).
1- Duplicates grenades on the unit for purposes of being assaulted.
2- Duplicates vox caster. (Not master vox).
3- Duplicates standard bearer.
4- Duplicates master vox.
5- The Ap of the weapons is improved by one (AP- becomes AP6, AP 5 becomes AP4, etc).
6- For the six, some sort of offensive power - and not a crappy Heavy d6 AP 6 shots.

Something like that.

-Priests need to have less of a "kill them all and let the Emperor sort 'em out" sort of attitude. Guard don't really do HtH. That, and they need to be statted such that you require 50 points of wargear to run them correctly - give the poor guys and armor save, at least.

- Commisars need to be cheaper and have the ability to be purchased at the HQ, the platoon and the squad level. They belong on the front lines (as supported by the fluff), and should be easier to find there.

Like a two tiered commisar? Commisar Lord and (standard) commisar, GW seems to be doing something like that.

For the psyker I see what you're getting at though it might be better if it were less transparent what the powers effectively did. Such as the vox caster duplicate, might be a power that lets a squad with a psyker share leadership with any officer accompanied by a psyker.

The biggest problem is that Advisors, esp. Commissars, are grossly overpriced for what you get.

Commissar and Priest should be and confer Fearless for <20 pts.

Psyker is at least cheap, but useless.

Has anyone thought of adding a "null" adviser?

a Null's stats are three's accross the board, with a laspistol and a 6+ save. Cost him say 10 points.

Any psychic power that would affect the null, or the unit he is with is automatically negated. It gives the IG some build in psychic defense.

There are so many IG units on the baord, and so few Advisor slots, a Null really doesn't do anything significant.

True, but it would be good againt massed stuff, that really bones the whole army, things like FOTD. Plus it would help keep the command squad in play against non line of site psychic attacks. I would pay 10 points to not worry about that anymore.

If all the Advisors had a standard basic plus, such as +1ld to their unit, or making the unit better at hand to hand, with specific affects and different stats, it would greatly differentiate them from eachother, while still holding useful abilities. Pyskers could use some uber powers, making them replace vox units doesn't make much sense, especially if it is random. You need another vox for the pysker to be affective, and you don't buy them in the squads unless you bought them for your command section already.

In that case, just make him a walking Psychic Hood with no offensive power.

Or we could be a bit more inventive and interesting than that. Say, lightening fingers, improved BS/rerolls, temporary Fearless or some sort of invul. conferred to units affected for HtH. Bought at price, limited to two powers each pysker?

Why?

Cheap and effective is the watchword of the Guard.

A walking Psychic Hood is precisely that. Strip down all the other stuff, and you can make the model cheap and still do his job well.

If I want a do-it-all guy, I'll take an Inquisitor Lord.

BillTheManiac wrote:Comissars - Tie Iron Discipline to them, or just make them cheaper.

There's no 'or' about it. They need better rules and they need to be cheaper. They're worth 20 points at most.

BillTheManiac wrote:Sanctioned Psykers - Always get Telepathic Order

How about rather than having crap models with the only half-way decent power in the 'Dex, we make them into good units with non-ramdom gakky powers.

BillTheManiac wrote:Priests - No penalties for melee casualties

Best fit would be doing something with Priests to make them fit with a Guard army (a HTH character in a shooty army?). He needs to be inspiring, not choppy.


And the biggest problem with Advisors is the Advisors rule. That needs to go. They should be able to join any unit, without restriction.

BYE

Skinnattittar wrote:Or we could be a bit more inventive and interesting than that.

Come now, Skinn my man. This is DD we're talking about. Inventinve and interesting are not in his vocabulary. 'Counts As' is, but not those two words.

BYE

Pardon me for having hope. If it weren't for hope I would have left WH40k long ago, that as well as painting models and complaining.

In my opinion advisors should be advisors, helping the commander command somehow. Not too cool on their own. If they modify the entire bubble there's no need for them to join random squads, and then they give the command squads more character.

Comissars: Is body with armory access + +1 Ld + ID worth just 20 points? That's the "or just" construction. I think it makes sense that something called "iron discipline" requires you to shoot people when they disobey.

Psykers: Random powers are a silly idea, especially when those powers duplicate equipment I have to buy. Oh, I already bought a master vox? No power for me ...

So ... commandy psykers want to be in command squads, while shooty psykers want to be in heavy weapons squads. But that doesn't mean they need to be two different units.

So sanctioned psyker, cheap body, buy a power does seem to make sense.

Priests: Are priests just sitting around inspiring people? What differentiates priests and commissars?

What if the goal of priests was to advise the commander on the Emperor's Will? Each turn, choose a target, squads in the bubble reroll to wound against them?

Nulls: Make it a radius. Simple.

Advisors do their advising before the battle. Once the poop hits the paddles and you're at face-to-face front line duty, you want as much C&C (Command and Control) out with the troops as possible. Keeping all your key leaders huddled up together in one spot is just asking for it to be hit and destroyed while it doesn't get all of the potential out there to the troops doing the fighting! At least, that's how we do it in the real world. Also, why do I want to beed up my CSs when I'm going to keep them back commanding my troops/providing leadership. That command bubble doesn't work if they're in hand-to-hand.

There is no reason an advisor would only advise before the battler. The psyker recieves a psychic premonition that says something needs to blow up, I would hope he'd share that fact with me. And as a loyal Imperium citizen, reassurance of the emperors will from a member of the ecclesiarch should always be appreciated.

@ Mythos : I'm getting the feeling you are intentionally misinterpretting what I had written... Go reread it and use some common sense, I'm not going to explain the obvious.

Skinnattittar wrote:Advisors do their advising before the battle.

aka_mythos wrote:There is no reason an advisor would only advise before the battle.

I don't see anything misinterpretation wise so far.

Skinnattittar wrote:Once the poop hits the paddles and you're at face-to-face front line duty, you want as much C&C (Command and Control) out with the troops as possible. Keeping all your key leaders huddled up together in one spot is just asking for it to be hit and destroyed while it doesn't get all of the potential out there to the troops doing the fighting! At least, that's how we do it in the real world. Also, why do I want to beed up my CSs when I'm going to keep them back commanding my troops/providing leadership. That command bubble doesn't work if they're in hand-to-hand.

aka_mythos wrote:The psyker recieves a psychic premonition that says something needs to blow up, I would hope he'd share that fact with me. And as a loyal Imperium citizen, reassurance of the emperors will from a member of the ecclesiarch should always be appreciated.

Once again I don't see any misinterpretation. What I said is just as applicable for if you want your advisors clustered or disperesed, it doesn't really matter. I was just adding to the first part of my comment, that if you have certain resources they don't stop helping just because you're in the field.

Ah, I appologise. I thought you were abdicating that all advisors should be required to stay in the command squads first, before additional Advisors may be dispersed to other units, which is a completely ridiculous idea.

I agree, requiring them to stay in command squads is completely ridiculous. I think there is a place for them in command squads, but requiring it is stupid.

To take a page out of the Dawn of War computer game, that I like, make advisors an upgrade option for the commanders bodyguard, while keeping it separate from any options or limitation on the number of advisors you can take for the remainder of the army. Thus you get that strong sense of advisors that run around with the commander, and advisors that run in and amongst the army.

Actually, I like them to stay in Command Squads, if only to remove IC status. At least, that way, the opponent doesn't get another KP for each Advisor...

Make them an up-grade for a squad like hv-weapon team or a vet sarge to avoid the double kill point whamy.

Centurion.

With the Guard able to easily field 10+ Troops units I just don't think Commissars or Psykers should be options for every squad. That would be silly.

I still think it should be possible to take them outside of command squads just in some limited capacity, like they are now. Also they should remove all of the IC status for any of the advisors. We have enough units on the table in most games, I'd almost go as far as to say no IC status for any model.

How about one Advisor for each FOC slot filled? It would make sense, you don't give a lot of Advisors for a small force, but for bigger ones they would get more. No point in limiting the number of Priests, but Commissars aren't nearly as infinite, neither are Pyskers, so, say, one commissar for every Troop Choice? One Pysker for every HQ and/or Elites Choice? Something dependant upon the size of the Army would work well, but keeping it simple is key.